Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

They're not customers - at least not to the corporate execs driving WotC's current direction. They're not statistically significant in a strictly financial sense. But I think it's the virtue signaling that is so infuriating. A lot could be said about Robert E Howard's and HP Lovecraft's overtly racist writings. Yet when a new movie/book/game drawing on the their work comes out, it's just understood that they were from a different time and we carry on. Up until a a few years ago it was that way with D&D as well. But current WotC leadership has the poor form to trash a guy who's been dead 20 years but still has living children and fans in the hobby. It's rude, unnecessary, and in cases outright inaccurate. And they seem to be doing it to please their own echo chamber and a vocal minority who are equally statistically insignificant in a financial sense.

The fact is that Hasbro has made a buttload of money off 5e. And almost everyone else in the industry has made more money as the hobby has grown. WotC's recent gaffes, especially the OGL mess, have only resulted in their competitors getting big windfalls. In total, WotC's 5e D&D has been *fantastic* for the hobby in terms of popularity, profitability, and longevity. It's been brilliant as a business phenomenon despite its shortcomings as a game. 
             
Still doesn't make getting sneered at enjoyable. So folks on forums like this one are gonna bitch. Nothing much else to see here.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.

Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 03, 2024, 01:05:04 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

Is this the Victorian Era? Because you are gaslighting pretty hard right now.

We didn't take ourselves out of the game, we were told that the game wasn't for us. Beyond the virtue signaling of WotC staff who told us that they didn't want white cisgendered males in their safe space, WotC was producing crap that we did not want to waste money on. If the bullshit you are spewing lets you sleep at night, great. But don't try to piss on people and claim that it is just raining.

Jeff what is the last WOTC D&D book you bought new for yourself? Not used, not pirated, not non-D&D, not third party, but the last WOTC D&D book you bought new for yourself?

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 03, 2024, 10:22:34 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

I don't think I am their customer base at this point at all. And I am critical of some of the changes they made and statements like the one in the preface and forward, but I also bought the Making of Original Dungeons and Dragons book because I heard the interior content was quite good (and I wanted to see the preface and foreword in their full context). I also bought Van Richten's Guide To Ravenloft despite my criticisms and Candle Keep Mysteries. There are things I like about both, even if some things are not my cup of tea.

And after reading them in their full context, do you think they're worth all the hoopla, angst, and controversy? I don't have the book, but have read (or at least heard) the supposedly offending parts, and I think a lot of people (including Pundit) are making a far bigger deal about this than it warrants. A lot of folks look for things to be outraged about in everything WotC does (in a more general sense, lots of people on all sides seem to look for things to be outraged about these days, but that'd a different discussion altogether). In some cases, the outrage is warranted (such as the OGL thing and the Pinkerton thing) but in a lot cases it seems like manufactured outrage.

That said, Jason Tondro's comments about not caring about "grognards" wasn't the best way he could have responded, but as Mistwell points out, lots of those folks aren't WotC customers and haven't been for years, so maybe it's fair that he doesn't care what they think.


Lou Prosperi

I've read the excerpts from Tondro's preface, and despite all the claims in defense, it still reads to me like assuming the worst and pronouncing judgment on a man who's no longer able to defend himself. It feels a bit out of place in a product that's supposedly about celebrating the game's history.

The first part of the statement, as I recall, isn't so bad, but the claims quickly become overly broad, and the reaction to the "Women's Lib" statement about Tiamat assumes malevolent motives that are only faintly, if at all, supported by the text.

Tangential question: I'm out of touch with Star Trek fandom these days. Do people have to make similar disclaimers about TOS and Roddenberry's cheating ways (in multiple senses of the phrase), or does Gene's commitment to socialism, antitheism, and sex-cultism give him a pass on that?

Quote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.

Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.

The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.

This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.

But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 03, 2024, 05:13:16 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 03, 2024, 10:22:34 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

I don't think I am their customer base at this point at all. And I am critical of some of the changes they made and statements like the one in the preface and forward, but I also bought the Making of Original Dungeons and Dragons book because I heard the interior content was quite good (and I wanted to see the preface and foreword in their full context). I also bought Van Richten's Guide To Ravenloft despite my criticisms and Candle Keep Mysteries. There are things I like about both, even if some things are not my cup of tea.

And after reading them in their full context, do you think they're worth all the hoopla, angst, and controversy? I don't have the book, but have read (or at least heard) the supposedly offending parts, and I think a lot of people (including Pundit) are making a far bigger deal about this than it warrants. A lot of folks look for things to be outraged about in everything WotC does (in a more general sense, lots of people on all sides seem to look for things to be outraged about these days, but that'd a different discussion altogether). In some cases, the outrage is warranted (such as the OGL thing and the Pinkerton thing) but in a lot cases it seems like manufactured outrage.

That said, Jason Tondro's comments about not caring about "grognards" wasn't the best way he could have responded, but as Mistwell points out, lots of those folks aren't WotC customers and haven't been for years, so maybe it's fair that he doesn't care what they think.


Lou Prosperi

I really think people should decide these things for themselves. If you are on the fence, I'd recommend trying to check out either one at a book store or hobby shop if you can and gauge it. I don't really want to say what you should or should not think about it. My view is the new Ravenloft setting had some big, big issues and I feel many of the criticisms were warranted. I got Candlekeep The Book of Inner Alchemy. I don't run 5E but I do like the adventure. It basically brings Bak Mei/Pei Mei into the Forgotten Realms. I love Pei Mei movies like Executioners from Shaolin so I thought that part was great, and it looked like a pretty gameable scenario to me. Mostly the criticisms of the writer are to do with things he has stated outside of the book (for example some of his read-throughs on their podcast). I don't think I share a lot of his perspective but from what I have seen here, and Blades of Lunar Kingdom, I think he makes interesting things (and he has some sensibilities that strike me as OSR).

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:16:10 AM

Quote from: jhkim on December 01, 2024, 12:27:44 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AM

Quote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 12:10:49 AMCurse of Strahd is wotc's first in house module and looks like thats the case from there on.

Yes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.

So what does it say that about the 5E customer base that this deconstruction has been their #1 selling module, that they sold a revised version of just four years later?

I was actually referring to Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, not Curse of Strahd, which while not perfect was still from the pre-"Full Retard Woke" era.

Oh so very. But Curse of Strahd still has its many problems and was opening shot from wotc after they stopped outsourcing to other companies..

Quote from: LouProsperi on December 03, 2024, 05:13:16 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 03, 2024, 10:22:34 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

I don't think I am their customer base at this point at all. And I am critical of some of the changes they made and statements like the one in the preface and forward, but I also bought the Making of Original Dungeons and Dragons book because I heard the interior content was quite good (and I wanted to see the preface and foreword in their full context). I also bought Van Richten's Guide To Ravenloft despite my criticisms and Candle Keep Mysteries. There are things I like about both, even if some things are not my cup of tea.

 A lot of folks look for things to be outraged about in everything WotC does (in a more general sense, lots of people on all sides seem to look for things to be outraged about these days, but that'd a different discussion altogether). In some cases, the outrage is warranted (such as the OGL thing and the Pinkerton thing) but in a lot cases it seems like manufactured outrage.

That said, Jason Tondro's comments about not caring about "grognards" wasn't the best way he could have responded, but as Mistwell points out, lots of those folks aren't WotC customers and haven't been for years, so maybe it's fair that he doesn't care what they think.


Lou Prosperi

On the topic of the Making of Original Dungeons and Dragons. I think we could probably all be more chill about how these things get discussed online (but it isn't like the people defending the book are chill either). So that aside, I think the criticisms are warranted. I wouldn't probably take them as far as some others. I feel like the stuff in the foreword and preface are not accurate assessments of the D&D text for the most part. I also don't think a foreword to a book like this (especially put out by the present owners of D&D for the anniversary) is the best place to explore this topic. If it were me and I wanted to get into it, I would have included a broader range of views on things (so I think including some oral history from people who were there and might not agree with calling it sexism would have been very helpful: they could have raised the topic but also given people who are affected by the claims a way to explain the text in their own words, or ad context). I think the fallout has been pretty bad for the hobby. Instead of just looking at the text of the game and debating that, it turned into a debate about everything Gary ever said on the subject and felt kind of like a character assassination (and I realize that isn't what the foreword was doing but that is where the conversation went). I should say this is mostly in the preface. The forward is a little more mild and makes passing reference to these things but mostly just lands on the WOTC statement they put on all their older products (which I think is not a useful statement). The book itself has a lot of great primary source material.

Quote from: Festus on December 03, 2024, 11:10:40 AMBut I think it's the virtue signaling that is so infuriating. A lot could be said about Robert E Howard's and HP Lovecraft's overtly racist writings. Yet when a new movie/book/game drawing on the their work comes out, it's just understood that they were from a different time and we carry on.

Bruh this is not the case, at all. They were canceling Lovecraft and Howard years before they infected D&D.

As a hardcore Lovecraft and Howard fan I've had to put up with constant reminders of DID YOU KNOW HP WAS RACIST?!

And even worse "Lovecraft would hate what we're doing to his work, which is why we're doing it to the racist white asshole!"

At this point you'd believe HP was burning crosses on front lawns and riding with the KKK how overstated his prejudices were.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:36:43 PM

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 03, 2024, 01:05:04 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

Is this the Victorian Era? Because you are gaslighting pretty hard right now.

We didn't take ourselves out of the game, we were told that the game wasn't for us. Beyond the virtue signaling of WotC staff who told us that they didn't want white cisgendered males in their safe space, WotC was producing crap that we did not want to waste money on. If the bullshit you are spewing lets you sleep at night, great. But don't try to piss on people and claim that it is just raining.

Jeff what is the last WOTC D&D book you bought new for yourself? Not used, not pirated, not non-D&D, not third party, but the last WOTC D&D book you bought new for yourself?

Save your WotC shilling for some rube who will believe you. A person would have to be a complete imbecile to think that WotC's behavior hasn't been alienating their own customer base. This backhanded slap at the creator of the cash cow they are milking to death is just the latest fuck up. Hey though, you do you my boo.

Watched the video but didn't read the book (obviously) because I'm not going to buy anything from WotC ever again. I already feel dirty having bought the Middle Earth Magic cards in a moment of weakness. Anyway, if any of this is even 10% true, they are deserving of nothing more than utter contempt. If Gygax is basically just Hitler 2.0, why would you have anything to do with him in any capacity? Oh yes, because $$$$$$$. The hypocrisy is through the roof...they hate capitalism, yet work for a corporation with a market cap over $9 billion. I'd like that to make sense, but realize it never will because they're fucking insane.

There is some nuance to that "CUSTOMER BASE" thing.

I bought MORE THAN A DOZEN 5e books. I ran 5e campaigns and even wrote some 5e 3rd-party PDFs.

(While we are at it: LMoP, Strahd and Annihilation are very good campaigns and I even kinda liked Ravenloft, but for some small details like "Viktra Mordenheim" not being called "Mary Mordenheim" as a homage to Shelley, which would be alliterative and adequate. Instead, they sound like they have no clue about the source material).

Sure, I have since left 5e, but I might buy a new campaign book if it was good enough (I almost bought Theros, Icewind, and was tempted to buy Witchlight until I read some negative reviews).

But then they gave me:

- OGL shenanigans.
- Pinkerton's.
- Dissing Gygax.

At some point, I've just given up on the whole thing.

Still, I think it is fair to say that I COULD BE in the target market.

(I still buy some classic D&D stuff but I think I need to stop that too, don't want to give them more money).

I wasn't going to buy the core three new 2024 books because I genuinely thought Wizard's was going to fuck it up, and make a worse version of the original 5th edition rules.

They didn't.

They brought their A game to the core mechanics. It is genuinely a better version of the 5th edition rules, and every third party that makes good books will be switching over to these versions of the rules.

The books have apparently sold very well on top of it all, which means outside of Elon buying Hasbro, this is likely to be what "D&D" is going to be for the next ten years.

That being said, outside of the core 3 WotC is unlikely to make anything I'll ever be interested in. I've got "Out of the Abyss", "Mordenkeins Guide to Monsters", "Sword Coast", and original "Curse of Strahd" before they wokeified it. I won't need anything else from them.

But I'll say, any chance of the new edition failing is gone now. 2024 is going to be the language of the land for D&D for the forseeable future. If you've know interest in that, I totally respect it. But I like these rules enough I can stop forcing myself to like Pathfinder 2e.

I just hate they did a genuinely good job on these while doing everything else so terribly.

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.

How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.

Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.

The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.

This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.

But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.

Wow Pundit, you're approaching SHARK territory proclaiming that WotC is full of communist. Idiots, assholes, arrogant bastards sure, but I doubt there are more than a handful that are actually Marxist.