Jason Tondro, the underqualified "D&D Lead", states on social media that he doesn't care what regular D&D fans think.
This Tondro fucker can't leave the industry fast enough. Fuck WotC!
Honestly? That's how all of WotC thinks of regular D&D fans. They see the older fans as completely disposable.
I've always been under the impression WOTC's modern failures are a result of their older successes, 5th edition poisoned the brand in a weird way where it brought in a tone of tourists (temporary customers) that WOTC misunderstood as long-term buyers. And now that new crowd has up and gone and the old players have been put-out, they don't have much to go on anymore.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on November 28, 2024, 09:32:33 PMI've always been under the impression WOTC's modern failures are a result of their older successes, 5th edition poisoned the brand in a weird way where it brought in a tone of tourists (temporary customers) that WOTC misunderstood as long-term buyers. And now that new crowd has up and gone and the old players have been put-out, they don't have much to go on anymore.
I think that most of the "tourists" (aka casual players) also didn't particularly want Woke nonsense. That's why their numbers started to drop off fast after Candlekeep, where in subsequent books the Woke content became more prominent and the efforts to "deconstruct" D&D (in stuff like Fritzhaven, Witchlight and Radiant Citadel) and at an increasing rate.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 29, 2024, 07:24:57 AMI think that most of the "tourists" (aka casual players) also didn't particularly want Woke nonsense. That's why their numbers started to drop off fast after Candlekeep, where in subsequent books the Woke content became more prominent and the efforts to "deconstruct" D&D (in stuff like Fritzhaven, Witchlight and Radiant Citadel) and at an increasing rate.
I think the tourists don't want to think hard (they fit the "NPC" meme) and are mostly left-liberal. They want to just "play D&D", preferably their OC in some kind of unchallenging mashup of Stranger Things and Critical Role. That includes the ability to Kill Things And Take Their Stuff, without traditional D&D tropes being Problematised. They do not want to play Hot Mess Barristas or Thirsty Sword Lesbians. 2014 D&D really hit their sweet spot.
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 28, 2024, 08:11:20 PMHonestly? That's how all of WotC thinks of regular D&D fans. They see the older fans as completely disposable.
Not just disposable. But an actual detriment to new product.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on November 28, 2024, 09:32:33 PMI've always been under the impression WOTC's modern failures are a result of their older successes, 5th edition poisoned the brand in a weird way where it brought in a tone of tourists (temporary customers) that WOTC misunderstood as long-term buyers. And now that new crowd has up and gone and the old players have been put-out, they don't have much to go on anymore.
Quote from: S'mon on November 29, 2024, 10:53:21 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on November 29, 2024, 07:24:57 AMI think that most of the "tourists" (aka casual players) also didn't particularly want Woke nonsense. That's why their numbers started to drop off fast after Candlekeep, where in subsequent books the Woke content became more prominent and the efforts to "deconstruct" D&D (in stuff like Fritzhaven, Witchlight and Radiant Citadel) and at an increasing rate.
I think the tourists don't want to think hard (they fit the "NPC" meme) and are mostly left-liberal. They want to just "play D&D", preferably their OC in some kind of unchallenging mashup of Stranger Things and Critical Role. That includes the ability to Kill Things And Take Their Stuff, without traditional D&D tropes being Problematised. They do not want to play Hot Mess Barristas or Thirsty Sword Lesbians. 2014 D&D really hit their sweet spot.
I don't think it makes sense to call casual players "tourists". Under both TSR editions and WotC editions, casual players have always made up the majority of sales. It's why TSR needed the BECMI line, for example. The hard-core grognards are important to the market, but IMO D&D has stayed at the top of the RPG market compared to more niche games like Savage Worlds or GURPS by having easy-to-run dungeons and easy-to-understand settings that are fun for casual players.
I'd agree with S'mon that 2014 D&D hit the customer's sweet spot, which is a good thing. Still,
every RPG company ever has run into the edition treadmill problem. After selling the core books to everyone and growing the player base as much as possible, it gets harder and harder to publish a book that most players want to buy. The customer base becomes fragmented as different groups try different settings and/or variations.
The implication from the quotes above is that if only WotC kept publishing what they did in 2014 they'd make top dollar forever, but that's not how the RPG market works. Looking at how well the different official D&D adventures have sold below,
1. Curse of Strahd (2016)
2. Waterdeep Dragon Heist (2018)
3. Hoard of the Dragon Queen (2014)
4. Tales from the Yawning Portal (2017)
5. Ghosts of Saltmarsh (2019)
6. Spelljammer: Adventures in Space (2022)
7. Icewind Dale (2020)
8. Tomb of Annihilation (2017)
9. Candlekeep Mysteries (2021)
10. Out of the Abyss (2015)
11. Waterdeep: Dungeons of the Mad Mage (2018)
12. Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus (2019)
13. Storm King's Thunder (2016)
14. Princes of the Apocalypse (2015)
15. The Wild Beyond the Witchlight (2021)
16. Curse of Strahd: Revamped (2020)
17. Dragonlance: Shadow of the Dragon Queen (2022)
18. Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel (2022)
19. Critical Role: Call of the Netherdeep (2022)
20. Keys from the Golden Vault (2023)
Source: https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/09/29/dd-5es-top-selling-adventures-and-what-it-means-for-the-hobby/
The question is what effect wokeness has on sales vs edition-treadmill effects.
In my experience, all of the 5E adventures are a mixed bag, but the downward trend seems to be general in the last two years. Spelljammer did pretty well, and the lowest was Keys from the Golden Vault, which I haven't heard any complaints about the wokeness.
There are lots of things that WotC could have done better. I was especially underwhelmed by their early 5E adventures and many of their later 5E books as well. Still, WotC has done financially much better than TSR, and particularly with 5E.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 29, 2024, 07:24:57 AMWitchlight and Radiant Citadel) and at an increasing rate.
They were inserting stuff as early as Curse of Strahd so barely 2 years in and it is cropping up already.
Wild Beyond the Witchlight is one of the few of the later books to have almost no wokeness in in. I -think- one character might be referred to as THEY. But thats as far as it goes really. None of the in your face stupid of everything from Curse of Strahd onwards.
There's no easy solution to the edition treadmill either. "Why do I have to buy a new edition when my current books work fine?"
The edition treadmill kills any game that doesn't have the endurance to keep up with burnout. Unsurprisingly, most writers aren't interested in reissuing the same game every 5-10 years just to stay solvent.
Even if a game is still being sold on drivethrurpg, people are just gonna lose interest if it doesn't keep getting new releases and marketing. It's shallow, but true. There are loads of interesting games from the 80s, 90s and 2000s, but nobody is interested. Any fans can't even write new editions because of copyright.
Quote from: Socratic-DM on November 28, 2024, 09:32:33 PMI've always been under the impression WOTC's modern failures are a result of their older successes, 5th edition poisoned the brand in a weird way where it brought in a tone of tourists (temporary customers) that WOTC misunderstood as long-term buyers. And now that new crowd has up and gone and the old players have been put-out, they don't have much to go on anymore.
They don't seem to learn from successes.
Quote from: Omega on November 29, 2024, 05:59:19 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on November 29, 2024, 07:24:57 AMWitchlight and Radiant Citadel) and at an increasing rate.
They were inserting stuff as early as Curse of Strahd so barely 2 years in and it is cropping up already.
Wild Beyond the Witchlight is one of the few of the later books to have almost no wokeness in in. I -think- one character might be referred to as THEY. But thats as far as it goes really. None of the in your face stupid of everything from Curse of Strahd onwards.
Curse of Strahd was also their best-selling adventure, not even including the additional sales from the revised version of it published in 2020. I've never read it, so no comment on the content.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 29, 2024, 07:24:57 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on November 28, 2024, 09:32:33 PMI've always been under the impression WOTC's modern failures are a result of their older successes, 5th edition poisoned the brand in a weird way where it brought in a tone of tourists (temporary customers) that WOTC misunderstood as long-term buyers. And now that new crowd has up and gone and the old players have been put-out, they don't have much to go on anymore.
I think that most of the "tourists" (aka casual players) also didn't particularly want Woke nonsense. That's why their numbers started to drop off fast after Candlekeep, where in subsequent books the Woke content became more prominent and the efforts to "deconstruct" D&D (in stuff like Fritzhaven, Witchlight and Radiant Citadel) and at an increasing rate.
You are pretty well hitting the nail on the head. Most people are not super up and on what ever the invouge political winds are and in most of what they consume they more or less want political passivity out of there media most of the time.
The only thing I would disagree with you on is lumping casuals and tourists as the same group if only because the tourist passes threw at a faster rate.
So in my experience a tourist is in to a thing they maybe pick up on something possibly buy some merchandise but these people tend to be hard to retain. The tourist moniker very much refers to on the way through customers. You can have devoted casuals that stay with a brand for long periods and don't buy much.
A good example would be those guys who buy a set of core books and don't engage with the community beyond there regular group.
Another sub set that is worth thinking about is the political motivated tourist who buy things based on the politics alone they do exist but tend to be poor and 8/10th of the time are in collage with no money.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 29, 2024, 07:24:57 AMQuote from: Socratic-DM on November 28, 2024, 09:32:33 PMI've always been under the impression WOTC's modern failures are a result of their older successes, 5th edition poisoned the brand in a weird way where it brought in a tone of tourists (temporary customers) that WOTC misunderstood as long-term buyers. And now that new crowd has up and gone and the old players have been put-out, they don't have much to go on anymore.
I think that most of the "tourists" (aka casual players) also didn't particularly want Woke nonsense. That's why their numbers started to drop off fast after Candlekeep, where in subsequent books the Woke content became more prominent and the efforts to "deconstruct" D&D (in stuff like Fritzhaven, Witchlight and Radiant Citadel) and at an increasing rate.
The Tourist is the person who plays because it is trendy, that is different than casual, casuals can be longterm they just might not be the big buyers, DMs are really the only core purchasers, because only the DM needs the Monster Manual, only the DM needs the DMG, only the DM needs Curse of Strahd.
and there was likely plenty of tourists who enjoyed the idea of identity politics, for the same reason it was trendy or an aesthetic, the tourist and the casual are a distinction worth noting.
Quote from: jhkim on November 29, 2024, 07:35:38 PMCurse of Strahd was also their best-selling adventure, not even including the additional sales from the revised version of it published in 2020. I've never read it, so no comment on the content.
It deserves its spot at the top of the list.
Quote from: jhkim on November 29, 2024, 07:35:38 PMQuote from: Omega on November 29, 2024, 05:59:19 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on November 29, 2024, 07:24:57 AMWitchlight and Radiant Citadel) and at an increasing rate.
They were inserting stuff as early as Curse of Strahd so barely 2 years in and it is cropping up already.
Wild Beyond the Witchlight is one of the few of the later books to have almost no wokeness in in. I -think- one character might be referred to as THEY. But thats as far as it goes really. None of the in your face stupid of everything from Curse of Strahd onwards.
Curse of Strahd was also their best-selling adventure, not even including the additional sales from the revised version of it published in 2020. I've never read it, so no comment on the content.
It sold well on name recognition. Reactions to the module were less enthusiastic.
The woke bits are in the first instance a nothing entry, same as in Tomb later. Completely meaningless and easy to miss. The other is a lesbian couple and its been so long I am not sure if it was prominent or a throwaway. There is also the insinuation that Strahd is now Bi.
Some people picked up on it but most were more annoyed at the mistreatment of Mordenkainen.
Nicklodeon and Cartoon Network and sy-fy have been making a business of hiring people who hate the product they are remaking for 24+ years.
Quote from: jhkim on November 29, 2024, 05:56:35 PMI don't think it makes sense to call casual players "tourists".
Yes, it's not a term I would generally use about anyone who wants to actually play RPGs, even if only casually and for a little while.
Quote from: Omega on November 29, 2024, 05:59:19 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on November 29, 2024, 07:24:57 AMWitchlight and Radiant Citadel) and at an increasing rate.
They were inserting stuff as early as Curse of Strahd so barely 2 years in and it is cropping up already.
Wild Beyond the Witchlight is one of the few of the later books to have almost no wokeness in in. I -think- one character might be referred to as THEY. But thats as far as it goes really. None of the in your face stupid of everything from Curse of Strahd onwards.
I'd say that it started with Candlekeep mysteries, which featured (among other examples) the adventure by Daniel Kwan, who had attacked Oriental Adventures as being stereotypical/cultural appropriation, and then went on to write an utterly generic adventure based on Kung Fu movies any white guy could have also watched.
Quote from: RPGPundit on November 30, 2024, 09:15:58 AMI'd say that it started with Candlekeep mysteries, which featured (among other examples) the adventure by Daniel Kwan, who had attacked Oriental Adventures as being stereotypical/cultural appropriation, and then went on to write an utterly generic adventure based on Kung Fu movies any white guy could have also watched.
I think Candlekeep was the first where wotc was actually openly pushing the agenda. And lying about wheelchair accessibility. Before that it was all just there and seems to have started with Curse of Strahd.
There was not anything in the Tyranny set and I have not read through Princes or Abyss in depth. I am guessing that they likely do not contain anything as the first 4 modules were all outsourced work. Kobold Press, Green Ronin and Sasquatch respectively.
Curse of Strahd is wotc's first in house module and looks like thats the case from there on.
Quote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 12:10:49 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on November 30, 2024, 09:15:58 AMI'd say that it started with Candlekeep mysteries, which featured (among other examples) the adventure by Daniel Kwan, who had attacked Oriental Adventures as being stereotypical/cultural appropriation, and then went on to write an utterly generic adventure based on Kung Fu movies any white guy could have also watched.
I think Candlekeep was the first where wotc was actually openly pushing the agenda. And lying about wheelchair accessibility. Before that it was all just there and seems to have started with Curse of Strahd.
There was not anything in the Tyranny set and I have not read through Princes or Abyss in depth. I am guessing that they likely do not contain anything as the first 4 modules were all outsourced work. Kobold Press, Green Ronin and Sasquatch respectively.
Curse of Strahd is wotc's first in house module and looks like thats the case from there on.
Yes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AMYes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
By "deconstructed" I presume you actually mean "has consumed only Marxist-approved media and doesn't even know what Victorian-style horror is outside of reading Wikipedia and TVTropes entries because the Victorian-era is superplusbad oppression of women and racism so actually learning about it would require disavowing their Woke credentials."
The management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
They're not Marxists. Actual Marxists would want them to lose ownership of their IPs and give it to the fans who actually care. (https://communist.red/copyright-keeping-ideas-under-lock-and-key/) These are corporatist fascists.
We need to reform copyright law and reduce terms to 20 years or so. Give D&D and Hasbro's other IPs back to the fans.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMWe need to reform copyright law
If you want to avoid redundancy, you could just put this in your signature, and it would probably drop your post count by 90%.
Quote from: Chris24601 on December 01, 2024, 08:40:42 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AMYes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
By "deconstructed" I presume you actually mean "has consumed only Marxist-approved media and doesn't even know what Victorian-style horror is outside of reading Wikipedia and TVTropes entries because the Victorian-era is superplusbad oppression of women and racism so actually learning about it would require disavowing their Woke credentials."
Yes.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
They're not Marxists. Actual Marxists would want them to lose ownership of their IPs and give it to the fans who actually care. (https://communist.red/copyright-keeping-ideas-under-lock-and-key/) These are corporatist fascists.
We need to reform copyright law and reduce terms to 20 years or so. Give D&D and Hasbro's other IPs back to the fans.
I mean, I don't disagree that copyright law has problems, but in the case of D&D, we essentially already have the ability to create our own D&D. The OSR has literally thousands of products doing that very thing.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AMQuote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 12:10:49 AMCurse of Strahd is wotc's first in house module and looks like thats the case from there on.
Yes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
So what does it say that about the 5E customer base that this deconstruction has been their #1 selling module (https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/09/29/dd-5es-top-selling-adventures-and-what-it-means-for-the-hobby/), that they sold a revised version of just four years later?
Quote from: jhkim on December 01, 2024, 12:27:44 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AMQuote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 12:10:49 AMCurse of Strahd is wotc's first in house module and looks like thats the case from there on.
Yes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
So what does it say that about the 5E customer base that this deconstruction has been their #1 selling module (https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/09/29/dd-5es-top-selling-adventures-and-what-it-means-for-the-hobby/), that they sold a revised version of just four years later?
Their customers are stupid "sparkle trolls"
Quote from: jhkim on December 01, 2024, 12:27:44 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AMQuote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 12:10:49 AMCurse of Strahd is wotc's first in house module and looks like thats the case from there on.
Yes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
So what does it say that about the 5E customer base that this deconstruction has been their #1 selling module (https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/09/29/dd-5es-top-selling-adventures-and-what-it-means-for-the-hobby/), that they sold a revised version of just four years later?
I don't think that is the one he means. Curse of Strahd is broadly popular with old and new fans. The Van Richten Guide to Ravenloft is the one that didn't land as well with older fans of the setting (some seem to like it though). Really the biggest issue with it in my opinion is it moved away from a lot of stuff that I think worked about the old setting. Like shifting it from a focus on gothic horror to a multi genre horror game, which really kind of undermines the premise for me. Some of the stuff feels like it was written by checking off boxes as well. I think we had a pretty big discussion on it here already so people can probably reference that thread. Some of the changes I disagreed with but understand (getting rid of the core and making everything an island of terror, while it isn't how I like Ravenloft, I get that this makes doing monster of the week very easy and gameable).
Most customers buy something due to a combination of conformity and lack of options. "It's popular, so I have to buy it!" This doesn't mean they subscribe to the author's politics or have any brand loyalty.
Quality still matters. There's a lot of low quality stuff now, but it doesn't sell nearly as well as quality stuff did 10-20 years ago.
"Fans who've boycotted company for over a decade upset company ignores them."
Quote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 12:10:49 AMQuote from: RPGPundit on November 30, 2024, 09:15:58 AMI'd say that it started with Candlekeep mysteries, which featured (among other examples) the adventure by Daniel Kwan, who had attacked Oriental Adventures as being stereotypical/cultural appropriation, and then went on to write an utterly generic adventure based on Kung Fu movies any white guy could have also watched.
I think Candlekeep was the first where wotc was actually openly pushing the agenda. And lying about wheelchair accessibility. Before that it was all just there and seems to have started with Curse of Strahd.
There was not anything in the Tyranny set and I have not read through Princes or Abyss in depth. I am guessing that they likely do not contain anything as the first 4 modules were all outsourced work. Kobold Press, Green Ronin and Sasquatch respectively.
Curse of Strahd is wotc's first in house module and looks like thats the case from there on.
Tyranny of Dragons; was 3rd Party, by Kobold Press.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 12:09:53 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
They're not Marxists. Actual Marxists would want them to lose ownership of their IPs and give it to the fans who actually care. (https://communist.red/copyright-keeping-ideas-under-lock-and-key/) These are corporatist fascists.
We need to reform copyright law and reduce terms to 20 years or so. Give D&D and Hasbro's other IPs back to the fans.
I mean, I don't disagree that copyright law has problems, but in the case of D&D, we essentially already have the ability to create our own D&D. The OSR has literally thousands of products doing that very thing.
And to that, I say Bravo!!!
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 01, 2024, 01:15:26 PMQuote from: jhkim on December 01, 2024, 12:27:44 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AMQuote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 12:10:49 AMCurse of Strahd is wotc's first in house module and looks like thats the case from there on.
Yes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
So what does it say that about the 5E customer base that this deconstruction has been their #1 selling module (https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/09/29/dd-5es-top-selling-adventures-and-what-it-means-for-the-hobby/), that they sold a revised version of just four years later?
I don't think that is the one he means. Curse of Strahd is broadly popular with old and new fans. The Van Richten Guide to Ravenloft is the one that didn't land as well with older fans of the setting (some seem to like it though).
Pundit replied to Omega, who clearly referred to Curse of Strahd. Pundit - can you confirm Brendan's suggestion? Did you accidentally conflate the two books, and were thinking of Van Richten's Guide when the previous posters were talking about Curse of Strahd?
Quote from: Man at Arms on December 01, 2024, 07:07:18 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 12:09:53 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
They're not Marxists. Actual Marxists would want them to lose ownership of their IPs and give it to the fans who actually care. (https://communist.red/copyright-keeping-ideas-under-lock-and-key/) These are corporatist fascists.
We need to reform copyright law and reduce terms to 20 years or so. Give D&D and Hasbro's other IPs back to the fans.
I mean, I don't disagree that copyright law has problems, but in the case of D&D, we essentially already have the ability to create our own D&D. The OSR has literally thousands of products doing that very thing.
And to that, I say Bravo!!!
I'm burned out on medieval fantasy. Everything outside of the OSR is fucked. Uninspired slop. At some point in the late 2000s rpg writers started phoning it in. The only rpgs that sound even vaguely interesting to me are dead ones from the 80s through the 00s. I can probably count on one hand the number of RPGs written after 2010 that sound interesting to me.
It's that goddamned edition treadmill. If you don't keep marketing your game forever, then the community will die off. Nobody can be bothered to do that outside corpos, and corpos inevitably fuck it up. It's fucking stupid.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AMYes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
The original was not Victorian either.
Both old and new harken more to a sort of pre-Victorian feel. Almost late Renaissance. The sequel, Gryphon Hill had a bit more Victorian feel.
What 2e really could have used was an adaption of Ravenloft to the Masque of the Red Death setting.
Quote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 08:43:02 PMThe original was not Victorian either.
Both old and new harken more to a sort of pre-Victorian feel. Almost late Renaissance. The sequel, Gryphon Hill had a bit more Victorian feel.
What 2e really could have used was an adaption of Ravenloft to the Masque of the Red Death setting.
Victorian is the right word if you're referring to "Gothic Horror" which didn't come about until the Victorian period really. So yes, while we might be mincing words and saying most of the Ravenloft domains are renissance, Ravenloft has *Always* been Gothic Horror.
I left D&D years ago in the early 2000s.
When I saw there was a 22 page conversion book, I had my doubts.
Tried it out and I didn't like it.
Haven't bought a WoTC product directly since.
Quote from: Orphan81 on December 01, 2024, 10:30:51 PMVictorian is the right word if you're referring to "Gothic Horror" which didn't come about until the Victorian period really. So yes, while we might be mincing words and saying most of the Ravenloft domains are renissance, Ravenloft has *Always* been Gothic Horror.
While the Gothic novel is a product of the late Georgian/Regency/Early Victorian period, many of the early novels were set in medieval or anachronistic eras. The later Gothic, from which Ravenloft draws its main inspiration--
Dracula,
Frankenstein, etc.--was more contemporary. These differences, combined with the D&D underpinnings, are one of the reasons Ravenloft is so delightfully anachronistic in many cases. :)
Greetings!
Hmmm. I can't say I have ever *depended* on WOTC to properly provide whatever I need to run a Gothic-inspired adventure--or even really *expected* WOTC to do so.
I've read Bram Stoker's "Dracula" as well as Shelly's "Frankenstein" books. I have a good half a dozen Gothic novels on my bookshelf. I also have books by Anne Rice. I've read them all.
Why rely on WOTC or expect them to do better than the primary source material to begin with? If you want genuine inspiration, drink yourself from the original water hose that inspired the genre to begin with.
Once you have a basic knowledge and a good grasp on the scenery and details that form the foundations of the original Gothic writers themselves--you are fully equipped. WOTC is thus really only needed then for the game-mechanics details as appropriate for the module.
I realize that some gamers may buy the modules expecting to be fully held by the hand in this regard in every way--but honestly, reading several of the original primary source books provides much stronger inspiration, colour, and sign-posts than the feeble scratchings that WOTC provides in the restricted page-counts of some adventure module.
Don't people actually read these books in school anymore? In similar genres, I'm reminded of "The Sea Wolf" and "White Fang" by Jack London; other books in historical genres such as "The Scarlet Letter", "Moby Dick", "The Headless Horseman", "Last of the Mohicans" by James Fennimore Cooper, all so many fine authors and fantastic books.
Having a basic American literacy in these classics provides a person with a solid foundation from which the aspiring DM can run appropriate genre adventures quite well, being thus well-versed in the genre vocabulary, the story themes, character development, story elements and structure.
Whether running adventure modules with a Gothic scene, or a rugged frontier theme, a small, insular town, wilderness borders, or living and working on the great sea in sailing ships, all of the original genre books are inspiring and very helpful in my experience.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Has any other publisher created decent gothic horror settings for OSR?
Quote from: SHARK on December 02, 2024, 02:32:17 PMGreetings!
Hmmm. I can't say I have ever *depended* on WOTC to properly provide whatever I need to run a Gothic-inspired adventure--or even really *expected* WOTC to do so.
I've read Bram Stoker's "Dracula" as well as Shelly's "Frankenstein" books. I have a good half a dozen Gothic novels on my bookshelf. I also have books by Anne Rice. I've read them all.
Why rely on WOTC or expect them to do better than the primary source material to begin with? If you want genuine inspiration, drink yourself from the original water hose that inspired the genre to begin with.
Once you have a basic knowledge and a good grasp on the scenery and details that form the foundations of the original Gothic writers themselves--you are fully equipped. WOTC is thus really only needed then for the game-mechanics details as appropriate for the module.
I realize that some gamers may buy the modules expecting to be fully held by the hand in this regard in every way--but honestly, reading several of the original primary source books provides much stronger inspiration, colour, and sign-posts than the feeble scratchings that WOTC provides in the restricted page-counts of some adventure module.
Don't people actually read these books in school anymore? In similar genres, I'm reminded of "The Sea Wolf" and "White Fang" by Jack London; other books in historical genres such as "The Scarlet Letter", "Moby Dick", "The Headless Horseman", "Last of the Mohicans" by James Fennimore Cooper, all so many fine authors and fantastic books.
Having a basic American literacy in these classics provides a person with a solid foundation from which the aspiring DM can run appropriate genre adventures quite well, being thus well-versed in the genre vocabulary, the story themes, character development, story elements and structure.
Whether running adventure modules with a Gothic scene, or a rugged frontier theme, a small, insular town, wilderness borders, or living and working on the great sea in sailing ships, all of the original genre books are inspiring and very helpful in my experience.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
SHARK, you can't realistically expect the average person these days; to have ever read any classic literature. There is very little appreciation for such things, among the average populace. We live, in a different time now. Shucks, the average student reads at a rather low level.
Quote from: blackstone on December 02, 2024, 01:36:10 PMI left D&D years ago in the early 2000s.
When I saw there was a 22 page conversion book, I had my doubts.
Tried it out and I didn't like it.
Haven't bought a WoTC product directly since.
I still have the much shorter conversion booklet they gave out at GenCon. And think got from RPGA the "24" page booklet. I put 24 in quotes because for god unknown reasons they count the cover, back and the index as pages. The actual conversion rules dont start till page 3. 4 of the remaining 21 pages are just lists of name changes. One page is just a big illustration.
Theres a reason why the other conversion booklet was pared down to fewer pages. But it just did not interest me and so passed on 3e. 4e's marketing repulsed me and so passed on that too.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 02, 2024, 04:07:41 PMHas any other publisher created decent gothic horror settings for OSR?
Daniel James Henley's (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/11067/daniel-james-hanley)
A Ghastly Affair line is pretty much raw, uncut Gothic on an OSR foundation.
Quote from: Man at Arms on December 02, 2024, 05:50:11 PMQuote from: SHARK on December 02, 2024, 02:32:17 PMGreetings!
Hmmm. I can't say I have ever *depended* on WOTC to properly provide whatever I need to run a Gothic-inspired adventure--or even really *expected* WOTC to do so.
I've read Bram Stoker's "Dracula" as well as Shelly's "Frankenstein" books. I have a good half a dozen Gothic novels on my bookshelf. I also have books by Anne Rice. I've read them all.
Why rely on WOTC or expect them to do better than the primary source material to begin with? If you want genuine inspiration, drink yourself from the original water hose that inspired the genre to begin with.
Once you have a basic knowledge and a good grasp on the scenery and details that form the foundations of the original Gothic writers themselves--you are fully equipped. WOTC is thus really only needed then for the game-mechanics details as appropriate for the module.
I realize that some gamers may buy the modules expecting to be fully held by the hand in this regard in every way--but honestly, reading several of the original primary source books provides much stronger inspiration, colour, and sign-posts than the feeble scratchings that WOTC provides in the restricted page-counts of some adventure module.
Don't people actually read these books in school anymore? In similar genres, I'm reminded of "The Sea Wolf" and "White Fang" by Jack London; other books in historical genres such as "The Scarlet Letter", "Moby Dick", "The Headless Horseman", "Last of the Mohicans" by James Fennimore Cooper, all so many fine authors and fantastic books.
Having a basic American literacy in these classics provides a person with a solid foundation from which the aspiring DM can run appropriate genre adventures quite well, being thus well-versed in the genre vocabulary, the story themes, character development, story elements and structure.
Whether running adventure modules with a Gothic scene, or a rugged frontier theme, a small, insular town, wilderness borders, or living and working on the great sea in sailing ships, all of the original genre books are inspiring and very helpful in my experience.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
SHARK, you can't realistically expect the average person these days; to have ever read any classic literature. There is very little appreciation for such things, among the average populace. We live, in a different time now. Shucks, the average student reads at a rather low level.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fq-QQsCaAAAWwYS.jpg)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 02, 2024, 05:54:09 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 02, 2024, 04:07:41 PMHas any other publisher created decent gothic horror settings for OSR?
Daniel James Henley's (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/11067/daniel-james-hanley) A Ghastly Affair line is pretty much raw, uncut Gothic on an OSR foundation.
Anything for Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun and other TSR classics?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 02, 2024, 07:37:19 PMQuote from: Armchair Gamer on December 02, 2024, 05:54:09 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 02, 2024, 04:07:41 PMHas any other publisher created decent gothic horror settings for OSR?
Daniel James Henley's (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/11067/daniel-james-hanley) A Ghastly Affair line is pretty much raw, uncut Gothic on an OSR foundation.
Anything for Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun and other TSR classics?
Do you mean anything for those settings, or "anything OSR" for those settings?
Quote from: Man at Arms on December 02, 2024, 05:50:11 PMQuote from: SHARK on December 02, 2024, 02:32:17 PMGreetings!
Hmmm. I can't say I have ever *depended* on WOTC to properly provide whatever I need to run a Gothic-inspired adventure--or even really *expected* WOTC to do so.
I've read Bram Stoker's "Dracula" as well as Shelly's "Frankenstein" books. I have a good half a dozen Gothic novels on my bookshelf. I also have books by Anne Rice. I've read them all.
Why rely on WOTC or expect them to do better than the primary source material to begin with? If you want genuine inspiration, drink yourself from the original water hose that inspired the genre to begin with.
Once you have a basic knowledge and a good grasp on the scenery and details that form the foundations of the original Gothic writers themselves--you are fully equipped. WOTC is thus really only needed then for the game-mechanics details as appropriate for the module.
I realize that some gamers may buy the modules expecting to be fully held by the hand in this regard in every way--but honestly, reading several of the original primary source books provides much stronger inspiration, colour, and sign-posts than the feeble scratchings that WOTC provides in the restricted page-counts of some adventure module.
Don't people actually read these books in school anymore? In similar genres, I'm reminded of "The Sea Wolf" and "White Fang" by Jack London; other books in historical genres such as "The Scarlet Letter", "Moby Dick", "The Headless Horseman", "Last of the Mohicans" by James Fennimore Cooper, all so many fine authors and fantastic books.
Having a basic American literacy in these classics provides a person with a solid foundation from which the aspiring DM can run appropriate genre adventures quite well, being thus well-versed in the genre vocabulary, the story themes, character development, story elements and structure.
Whether running adventure modules with a Gothic scene, or a rugged frontier theme, a small, insular town, wilderness borders, or living and working on the great sea in sailing ships, all of the original genre books are inspiring and very helpful in my experience.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
SHARK, you can't realistically expect the average person these days; to have ever read any classic literature. There is very little appreciation for such things, among the average populace. We live, in a different time now. Shucks, the average student reads at a rather low level.
Greetings!
*Laughing* Yeah, Man At Arms, I know you are right. Sadly, though. Yes, I must seem like an old man "Yelling at the clouds", right?
When I was in *Grade School*, as well as Junior High, and into High School, we were familiarized with all of these classic books.
In college, and that wasn't that so long ago--in basic English Literature 101, 102, 201, Freshman and Sophomore College courses, we most certainly read and analyzed all of those classic books. Some we dug into quite in-depth.
Just your essential Liberal Arts/Humanities foundations. When I was in college, these courses which covered the older European classics, and later American classics, were considered essential education for every student--regardless of their Major, you know?
All this talk about WOTC's treatment of "Gothic" just made me think about, damn, you know, I got exposed to more Gothic essentials in a Freshman College English Writers Anthology of Classic Gothic Authors in just one semester than anything I have ever read from WOTC.
Atmosphere, scene setting, characterization, plot elements, essential vocabulary, even aspects of history and religious themes all embraced within Gothic writing.
Yeah, I've been told that no one reads books anymore. I wonder what the frigg students actually do in high school and college nowadays? I actually had to read these books, then polish off a 10 or 20 page annotated and footnoted paper for them, and participate in several extended class discussions, enthusiastically and punctually led by the professor. We were not expected to be masters of the material, but to score an "A" or a minimum score of a "B" in these courses, we had to do the work and demonstrate that we gave a damn and actually did some studying. If you slept or partied and laughed it off, my college professors would unceremoniously flame you with a failing grade without a moment's hesitation. So, yeah, I made sure I learned stuff right. *Laughing*
Even years later now, lots of that knowledge, the feel, the vocabulary, the essentials, remain with you. That's certainly an aspect that I appreciated when DMing game sessions and interpreting game modules.
I know. Our education system has been hopelessly broken and driven off a cliff. Once upon a time though, our high schools and especially our colleges did a decent job of providing students with a solid education.
It is somewhat of a tangent, but related--how I have noticed the decline of literacy and education amongst *Gamers* nowadays--compared to when I was in high school, the Marine Corps, and later, in college. Gamers used to pride themselves on being very literate and well-educated, always on the basics, but occasionally as well on some obscure topic. Increasingly, I have run into gamers that are no more educated or literate than my Labrador. They can tell me all about some stupid computer game, or what kind of underwear Beyonce wears, or what kind of tacos Taylor Swift prefers. *Shakes Head, Rolls Eyes*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
Is this the Victorian Era? Because you are gaslighting pretty hard right now.
We didn't take ourselves out of the game, we were told that the game wasn't for us. Beyond the virtue signaling of WotC staff who told us that they didn't want white cisgendered males in their safe space, WotC was producing crap that we did not want to waste money on. If the bullshit you are spewing lets you sleep at night, great. But don't try to piss on people and claim that it is just raining.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 02, 2024, 05:54:09 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 02, 2024, 04:07:41 PMHas any other publisher created decent gothic horror settings for OSR?
Daniel James Henley's (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/11067/daniel-james-hanley) A Ghastly Affair line is pretty much raw, uncut Gothic on an OSR foundation.
Been thinking about A Ghastly Affair a lot. I love the premise, my problem with this, like most RPGs is there doesn't really seem to be a default play loop. D&D has go to the dungeon, Cyberpunk has the mission. What does my True Innocent PC do by default?
Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMHow are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?"
They're not. Me and my friends were though. They had to work hard to piss us off enough we stopped buying 5e. I still have a shelf of 5e, and another shelf of 4e.
Quote from: jhkim on December 01, 2024, 12:27:44 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AMQuote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 12:10:49 AMCurse of Strahd is wotc's first in house module and looks like thats the case from there on.
Yes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
So what does it say that about the 5E customer base that this deconstruction has been their #1 selling module (https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/09/29/dd-5es-top-selling-adventures-and-what-it-means-for-the-hobby/), that they sold a revised version of just four years later?
I was actually referring to Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, not Curse of Strahd, which while not perfect was still from the pre-"Full Retard Woke" era.
Quote from: HappyDaze on December 02, 2024, 07:43:09 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 02, 2024, 07:37:19 PMQuote from: Armchair Gamer on December 02, 2024, 05:54:09 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 02, 2024, 04:07:41 PMHas any other publisher created decent gothic horror settings for OSR?
Daniel James Henley's (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/11067/daniel-james-hanley) A Ghastly Affair line is pretty much raw, uncut Gothic on an OSR foundation.
Anything for Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun and other TSR classics?
Do you mean anything for those settings, or "anything OSR" for those settings?
New settings that recapture the magic, since WotC can't maintain them worth a darn.
Quote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 08:43:02 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AMYes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
The original was not Victorian either.
Both old and new harken more to a sort of pre-Victorian feel. Almost late Renaissance. The sequel, Gryphon Hill had a bit more Victorian feel.
What 2e really could have used was an adaption of Ravenloft to the Masque of the Red Death setting.
The appearance of the original Ravenloft module was because it was D&D, so it had to be fantasy-medieval. But the GENRE they were tapping into was the classic Victorian Horror in the style of Hammer Horror films. In other words, highly moralistic.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 02, 2024, 04:07:41 PMHas any other publisher created decent gothic horror settings for OSR?
The Red Room.
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 02, 2024, 07:37:19 PMQuote from: Armchair Gamer on December 02, 2024, 05:54:09 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 02, 2024, 04:07:41 PMHas any other publisher created decent gothic horror settings for OSR?
Daniel James Henley's (https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/publisher/11067/daniel-james-hanley) A Ghastly Affair line is pretty much raw, uncut Gothic on an OSR foundation.
Anything for Spelljammer, Planescape, Dark Sun and other TSR classics?
Well, my "Shithole" region of the World of the Last Sun is a kind of Dark-Sun parody.
Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.
Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
I don't think I am their customer base at this point at all. And I am critical of some of the changes they made and statements like the one in the preface and forward, but I also bought the Making of Original Dungeons and Dragons book because I heard the interior content was quite good (and I wanted to see the preface and foreword in their full context). I also bought Van Richten's Guide To Ravenloft despite my criticisms and Candle Keep Mysteries. There are things I like about both, even if some things are not my cup of tea.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:18:44 AMQuote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 08:43:02 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AMYes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
The original was not Victorian either.
Both old and new harken more to a sort of pre-Victorian feel. Almost late Renaissance. The sequel, Gryphon Hill had a bit more Victorian feel.
What 2e really could have used was an adaption of Ravenloft to the Masque of the Red Death setting.
The appearance of the original Ravenloft module was because it was D&D, so it had to be fantasy-medieval. But the GENRE they were tapping into was the classic Victorian Horror in the style of Hammer Horror films. In other words, highly moralistic.
It is also worth mentioning Strahd is not wearing medieval clothing in the artwork. And throughout the Ravenloft run in the 90s the art often belied medieval descriptions (and some entries had things in them that were visibly not medieval). This is particularly the case with clothing. Oddly it all worked for me. If you are emulating gothic horror, hammer fils and universal monster movies, then including trappings from them makes a certain amount of sense (even if you are fitting it to D&D)
Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
They're not customers - at least not to the corporate execs driving WotC's current direction. They're not statistically significant in a strictly financial sense. But I think it's the virtue signaling that is so infuriating. A lot could be said about Robert E Howard's and HP Lovecraft's overtly racist writings. Yet when a new movie/book/game drawing on the their work comes out, it's just understood that they were from a different time and we carry on. Up until a a few years ago it was that way with D&D as well. But current WotC leadership has the poor form to trash a guy who's been dead 20 years but still has living children and fans in the hobby. It's rude, unnecessary, and in cases outright inaccurate. And they seem to be doing it to please their own echo chamber and a vocal minority who are equally statistically insignificant in a financial sense.
The fact is that Hasbro has made a buttload of money off 5e. And almost everyone else in the industry has made more money as the hobby has grown. WotC's recent gaffes, especially the OGL mess, have only resulted in their competitors getting big windfalls. In total, WotC's 5e D&D has been *fantastic* for the hobby in terms of popularity, profitability, and longevity. It's been brilliant as a business phenomenon despite its shortcomings as a game.
Still doesn't make getting sneered at enjoyable. So folks on forums like this one are gonna bitch. Nothing much else to see here.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.
Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.
Quote from: jeff37923 on December 03, 2024, 01:05:04 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
Is this the Victorian Era? Because you are gaslighting pretty hard right now.
We didn't take ourselves out of the game, we were told that the game wasn't for us. Beyond the virtue signaling of WotC staff who told us that they didn't want white cisgendered males in their safe space, WotC was producing crap that we did not want to waste money on. If the bullshit you are spewing lets you sleep at night, great. But don't try to piss on people and claim that it is just raining.
Jeff what is the last WOTC D&D book you bought new for yourself? Not used, not pirated, not non-D&D, not third party, but the last WOTC D&D book you bought new for yourself?
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 03, 2024, 10:22:34 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
I don't think I am their customer base at this point at all. And I am critical of some of the changes they made and statements like the one in the preface and forward, but I also bought the Making of Original Dungeons and Dragons book because I heard the interior content was quite good (and I wanted to see the preface and foreword in their full context). I also bought Van Richten's Guide To Ravenloft despite my criticisms and Candle Keep Mysteries. There are things I like about both, even if some things are not my cup of tea.
And after reading them in their full context, do you think they're worth all the hoopla, angst, and controversy? I don't have the book, but have read (or at least heard) the supposedly offending parts, and I think a lot of people (including Pundit) are making a far bigger deal about this than it warrants. A lot of folks look for things to be outraged about in everything WotC does (in a more general sense, lots of people on all sides seem to look for things to be outraged about these days, but that'd a different discussion altogether). In some cases, the outrage is warranted (such as the OGL thing and the Pinkerton thing) but in a lot cases it seems like manufactured outrage.
That said, Jason Tondro's comments about not caring about "grognards" wasn't the best way he could have responded, but as Mistwell points out, lots of those folks aren't WotC customers and haven't been for years, so maybe it's fair that he doesn't care what they think.
Lou Prosperi
I've read the excerpts from Tondro's preface, and despite all the claims in defense, it still reads to me like assuming the worst and pronouncing judgment on a man who's no longer able to defend himself. It feels a bit out of place in a product that's supposedly about celebrating the game's history.
The first part of the statement, as I recall, isn't so bad, but the claims quickly become overly broad, and the reaction to the "Women's Lib" statement about Tiamat assumes malevolent motives that are only faintly, if at all, supported by the text.
Tangential question: I'm out of touch with Star Trek fandom these days. Do people have to make similar disclaimers about TOS and Roddenberry's cheating ways (in multiple senses of the phrase), or does Gene's commitment to socialism, antitheism, and sex-cultism give him a pass on that?
Quote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.
Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.
The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.
This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.
But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.
Quote from: LouProsperi on December 03, 2024, 05:13:16 PMQuote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 03, 2024, 10:22:34 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
I don't think I am their customer base at this point at all. And I am critical of some of the changes they made and statements like the one in the preface and forward, but I also bought the Making of Original Dungeons and Dragons book because I heard the interior content was quite good (and I wanted to see the preface and foreword in their full context). I also bought Van Richten's Guide To Ravenloft despite my criticisms and Candle Keep Mysteries. There are things I like about both, even if some things are not my cup of tea.
And after reading them in their full context, do you think they're worth all the hoopla, angst, and controversy? I don't have the book, but have read (or at least heard) the supposedly offending parts, and I think a lot of people (including Pundit) are making a far bigger deal about this than it warrants. A lot of folks look for things to be outraged about in everything WotC does (in a more general sense, lots of people on all sides seem to look for things to be outraged about these days, but that'd a different discussion altogether). In some cases, the outrage is warranted (such as the OGL thing and the Pinkerton thing) but in a lot cases it seems like manufactured outrage.
That said, Jason Tondro's comments about not caring about "grognards" wasn't the best way he could have responded, but as Mistwell points out, lots of those folks aren't WotC customers and haven't been for years, so maybe it's fair that he doesn't care what they think.
Lou Prosperi
I really think people should decide these things for themselves. If you are on the fence, I'd recommend trying to check out either one at a book store or hobby shop if you can and gauge it. I don't really want to say what you should or should not think about it. My view is the new Ravenloft setting had some big, big issues and I feel many of the criticisms were warranted. I got Candlekeep The Book of Inner Alchemy. I don't run 5E but I do like the adventure. It basically brings Bak Mei/Pei Mei into the Forgotten Realms. I love Pei Mei movies like Executioners from Shaolin so I thought that part was great, and it looked like a pretty gameable scenario to me. Mostly the criticisms of the writer are to do with things he has stated outside of the book (for example some of his read-throughs on their podcast). I don't think I share a lot of his perspective but from what I have seen here, and Blades of Lunar Kingdom, I think he makes interesting things (and he has some sensibilities that strike me as OSR).
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:16:10 AMQuote from: jhkim on December 01, 2024, 12:27:44 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 01, 2024, 03:35:05 AMQuote from: Omega on December 01, 2024, 12:10:49 AMCurse of Strahd is wotc's first in house module and looks like thats the case from there on.
Yes, the Ravenloft book was awful; not just for the art, or the race/gender-swapping but because they completely "deconstructed" the concept of what Victorian-style horror should be.
So what does it say that about the 5E customer base that this deconstruction has been their #1 selling module (https://alphastream.org/index.php/2023/09/29/dd-5es-top-selling-adventures-and-what-it-means-for-the-hobby/), that they sold a revised version of just four years later?
I was actually referring to Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft, not Curse of Strahd, which while not perfect was still from the pre-"Full Retard Woke" era.
Oh so very. But Curse of Strahd still has its many problems and was opening shot from wotc after they stopped outsourcing to other companies..
Quote from: LouProsperi on December 03, 2024, 05:13:16 PMQuote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 03, 2024, 10:22:34 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
I don't think I am their customer base at this point at all. And I am critical of some of the changes they made and statements like the one in the preface and forward, but I also bought the Making of Original Dungeons and Dragons book because I heard the interior content was quite good (and I wanted to see the preface and foreword in their full context). I also bought Van Richten's Guide To Ravenloft despite my criticisms and Candle Keep Mysteries. There are things I like about both, even if some things are not my cup of tea.
A lot of folks look for things to be outraged about in everything WotC does (in a more general sense, lots of people on all sides seem to look for things to be outraged about these days, but that'd a different discussion altogether). In some cases, the outrage is warranted (such as the OGL thing and the Pinkerton thing) but in a lot cases it seems like manufactured outrage.
That said, Jason Tondro's comments about not caring about "grognards" wasn't the best way he could have responded, but as Mistwell points out, lots of those folks aren't WotC customers and haven't been for years, so maybe it's fair that he doesn't care what they think.
Lou Prosperi
On the topic of the Making of Original Dungeons and Dragons. I think we could probably all be more chill about how these things get discussed online (but it isn't like the people defending the book are chill either). So that aside, I think the criticisms are warranted. I wouldn't probably take them as far as some others. I feel like the stuff in the foreword and preface are not accurate assessments of the D&D text for the most part. I also don't think a foreword to a book like this (especially put out by the present owners of D&D for the anniversary) is the best place to explore this topic. If it were me and I wanted to get into it, I would have included a broader range of views on things (so I think including some oral history from people who were there and might not agree with calling it sexism would have been very helpful: they could have raised the topic but also given people who are affected by the claims a way to explain the text in their own words, or ad context). I think the fallout has been pretty bad for the hobby. Instead of just looking at the text of the game and debating that, it turned into a debate about everything Gary ever said on the subject and felt kind of like a character assassination (and I realize that isn't what the foreword was doing but that is where the conversation went). I should say this is mostly in the preface. The forward is a little more mild and makes passing reference to these things but mostly just lands on the WOTC statement they put on all their older products (which I think is not a useful statement). The book itself has a lot of great primary source material.
Quote from: Festus on December 03, 2024, 11:10:40 AMBut I think it's the virtue signaling that is so infuriating. A lot could be said about Robert E Howard's and HP Lovecraft's overtly racist writings. Yet when a new movie/book/game drawing on the their work comes out, it's just understood that they were from a different time and we carry on.
Bruh this is not the case, at all. They were canceling Lovecraft and Howard years before they infected D&D.
As a hardcore Lovecraft and Howard fan I've had to put up with constant reminders of DID YOU KNOW HP WAS RACIST?!
And even worse "Lovecraft would hate what we're doing to his work, which is why we're doing it to the racist white asshole!"
At this point you'd believe HP was burning crosses on front lawns and riding with the KKK how overstated his prejudices were.
Quote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:36:43 PMQuote from: jeff37923 on December 03, 2024, 01:05:04 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
Is this the Victorian Era? Because you are gaslighting pretty hard right now.
We didn't take ourselves out of the game, we were told that the game wasn't for us. Beyond the virtue signaling of WotC staff who told us that they didn't want white cisgendered males in their safe space, WotC was producing crap that we did not want to waste money on. If the bullshit you are spewing lets you sleep at night, great. But don't try to piss on people and claim that it is just raining.
Jeff what is the last WOTC D&D book you bought new for yourself? Not used, not pirated, not non-D&D, not third party, but the last WOTC D&D book you bought new for yourself?
Save your WotC shilling for some rube who will believe you. A person would have to be a complete imbecile to think that WotC's behavior hasn't been alienating their own customer base. This backhanded slap at the creator of the cash cow they are milking to death is just the latest fuck up. Hey though, you do you my boo.
Watched the video but didn't read the book (obviously) because I'm not going to buy anything from WotC ever again. I already feel dirty having bought the Middle Earth Magic cards in a moment of weakness. Anyway, if any of this is even 10% true, they are deserving of nothing more than utter contempt. If Gygax is basically just Hitler 2.0, why would you have anything to do with him in any capacity? Oh yes, because $$$$$$$. The hypocrisy is through the roof...they hate capitalism, yet work for a corporation with a market cap over $9 billion. I'd like that to make sense, but realize it never will because they're fucking insane.
There is some nuance to that "CUSTOMER BASE" thing.
I bought MORE THAN A DOZEN 5e books. I ran 5e campaigns and even wrote some 5e 3rd-party PDFs.
(While we are at it: LMoP, Strahd and Annihilation are very good campaigns and I even kinda liked Ravenloft, but for some small details like "Viktra Mordenheim" not being called "Mary Mordenheim" as a homage to Shelley, which would be alliterative and adequate. Instead, they sound like they have no clue about the source material).
Sure, I have since left 5e, but I might buy a new campaign book if it was good enough (I almost bought Theros, Icewind, and was tempted to buy Witchlight until I read some negative reviews).
But then they gave me:
- OGL shenanigans.
- Pinkerton's.
- Dissing Gygax.
At some point, I've just given up on the whole thing.
Still, I think it is fair to say that I COULD BE in the target market.
(I still buy some classic D&D stuff but I think I need to stop that too, don't want to give them more money).
I wasn't going to buy the core three new 2024 books because I genuinely thought Wizard's was going to fuck it up, and make a worse version of the original 5th edition rules.
They didn't.
They brought their A game to the core mechanics. It is genuinely a better version of the 5th edition rules, and every third party that makes good books will be switching over to these versions of the rules.
The books have apparently sold very well on top of it all, which means outside of Elon buying Hasbro, this is likely to be what "D&D" is going to be for the next ten years.
That being said, outside of the core 3 WotC is unlikely to make anything I'll ever be interested in. I've got "Out of the Abyss", "Mordenkeins Guide to Monsters", "Sword Coast", and original "Curse of Strahd" before they wokeified it. I won't need anything else from them.
But I'll say, any chance of the new edition failing is gone now. 2024 is going to be the language of the land for D&D for the forseeable future. If you've know interest in that, I totally respect it. But I like these rules enough I can stop forcing myself to like Pathfinder 2e.
I just hate they did a genuinely good job on these while doing everything else so terribly.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.
Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.
The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.
This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.
But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.
Wow Pundit, you're approaching SHARK territory proclaiming that WotC is full of communist. Idiots, assholes, arrogant bastards sure, but I doubt there are more than a handful that are actually Marxist.
Quote from: M2A0 on December 03, 2024, 09:19:15 PMWow Pundit, you're approaching SHARK territory proclaiming that WotC is full of communist. Idiots, assholes, arrogant bastards sure, but I doubt there are more than a handful that are actually Marxist.
Not in the strict sense, but I suspect many of them sympathize with Marx's concept of the dialectic, albeit transposed from Capital/Labor to Cishet White Males/Everyone Else, and his hostility to God, family, nature, and reality in general. :)
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 03, 2024, 09:40:28 PMQuote from: M2A0 on December 03, 2024, 09:19:15 PMWow Pundit, you're approaching SHARK territory proclaiming that WotC is full of communist. Idiots, assholes, arrogant bastards sure, but I doubt there are more than a handful that are actually Marxist.
Not in the strict sense, but I suspect many of them sympathize with Marx's concept of the dialectic, albeit transposed from Capital/Labor to Cishet White Males/Everyone Else, and his hostility to God, family, nature, and reality in general. :)
Sympathize? Considering that Karl Marx was a loser who couldn't remain employed and was constantly borrowing money from his family to make ends meet and lying to his creditors you'd think he would be their Patron Saint.
:o Does this mean Pundit will help SHARK publish D&D Blood & Boobies edition? :D Will it still have a gold standard currency instead of a friendship bracelet economy? Will comeliness return as a stat? :) Only time will tell.
Quote from: Opaopajr on December 04, 2024, 04:40:42 AM:o Does this mean Pundit will help SHARK publish D&D Blood & Boobies edition? :D Will it still have a gold standard currency instead of a friendship bracelet economy? Will comeliness return as a stat? :) Only time will tell.
Greetings!
*Laughing* NICE, Opaopajr!
Definitely the GOLD STANDARD!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: M2A0 on December 03, 2024, 09:19:15 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.
Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.
The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.
This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.
But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.
Wow Pundit, you're approaching SHARK territory proclaiming that WotC is full of communist. Idiots, assholes, arrogant bastards sure, but I doubt there are more than a handful that are actually Marxist.
Depends on what you mean by "actually Marxist". I'm using the broad term of post-modern fashionable neo-marxism. And in that context, virtually everyone working at WotC below the level of Executive is definitely a Marxist.
Quote from: M2A0 on December 03, 2024, 09:19:15 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.
Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.
The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.
This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.
But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.
Wow Pundit, you're approaching SHARK territory proclaiming that WotC is full of communist. Idiots, assholes, arrogant bastards sure, but I doubt there are more than a handful that are actually Marxist.
Greetings!
Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, all of them have been deeply infiltrated, indoctrinated, and influenced by Communist ideology.
I would bet 90% of the people that work at WOTC identify as one or more of those. Thus, they are embracing Communist ideology, Communist policies, anti-Capitalism, Anti-America, BLM, ANTIFA, anti-gun, all that kind of mind virus--and yes, being WOKE. So, whether they would actually claim specifically to be Communists doesn't matter. They are still being soaked in Communism.
You might have problems with that, but most of America recognizes that I AM RIGHT, whether you like it or not. More and more Americans are waking up to how deeply corrupted the Democrats, the Liberals, the Progressives, have become, and how much they love Communism.
So, ultimately, I don't care if they are card-carrying members of the Communist Party. They still embrace Communism, and work to secure and strengthen Woke tyranny in America.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I think the stupidest thing about Tondro's statement is he was so worried about hypothetical "marginalized" people being upset over things like the term "Fighting Man" (which is the historically correct term, and was changed to just "Fighter" like a couple of years later anyway), having a Cleric title be "Lama" (yet interestingly enough he had no issue with every other title being Christian in nature) and with Vishnu having stats in Deities and Demigods, but didn't give one lick about telling the people who are the reason D&D has been successful for 50 years to fuck off and slandering the deceased creators.
So basically the retard made up a scenario in his head that some minority MIGHT be upset about works from 50 years ago and felt the need to address it to say "This was always bad but back then people were ignorant" and yet never considered that his words didn't need to be said to anyone with half a brain who understands that times were different, not necessarily worse, 50 years ago.
Quote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PMPretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.
So wiping their asses on the legacy of D&D creators Gygax, Arneson, and others makes it ok in your book.
Got it.
Quote from: Nobleshield on December 04, 2024, 10:15:32 AMSo basically the retard made up a scenario in his head that some minority MIGHT be upset about works from 50 years ago and felt the need to address it to say "This was always bad but back then people were ignorant" and yet never considered that his words didn't need to be said to anyone with half a brain who understands that times were different, not necessarily worse, 50 years ago.
The woke see minorities and the disabled like animals. Quaint and in need of protection. Until they see the next trendy thing.
Quote from: Orphan81 on December 03, 2024, 09:00:31 PMThey didn't.
They brought their A game to the core mechanics. It is genuinely a better version of the 5th edition rules, and every third party that makes good books will be switching over to these versions of the rules.
I'd like to hear more about that. I gave 2024 D&D a brief glance and didn't particularly like it. The only thing I like is that there is a free version. My impressions are here:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2024/09/d-2024-is-free.html
Quote from: Nobleshield on December 04, 2024, 10:15:32 AMI think the stupidest thing about Tondro's statement is he was so worried about hypothetical "marginalized" people being upset over things like the term "Fighting Man" (which is the historically correct term, and was changed to just "Fighter" like a couple of years later anyway), having a Cleric title be "Lama" (yet interestingly enough he had no issue with every other title being Christian in nature) and with Vishnu having stats in Deities and Demigods, but didn't give one lick about telling the people who are the reason D&D has been successful for 50 years to fuck off and slandering the deceased creators.
So basically the retard made up a scenario in his head that some minority MIGHT be upset about works from 50 years ago and felt the need to address it to say "This was always bad but back then people were ignorant" and yet never considered that his words didn't need to be said to anyone with half a brain who understands that times were different, not necessarily worse, 50 years ago.
He probably is motivated by a white guilt savior complex.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 04, 2024, 09:37:59 AMQuote from: M2A0 on December 03, 2024, 09:19:15 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.
Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.
The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.
This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.
But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.
Wow Pundit, you're approaching SHARK territory proclaiming that WotC is full of communist. Idiots, assholes, arrogant bastards sure, but I doubt there are more than a handful that are actually Marxist.
Depends on what you mean by "actually Marxist". I'm using the broad term of post-modern fashionable neo-marxism. And in that context, virtually everyone working at WotC below the level of Executive is definitely a Marxist.
I know it's changed much since I worked there, but many, many long term employees from the mid-90's still work there. Sure, they have to keep silent to survive long term in the toxic woke kultur, they are not neo-Marxist.
The young ones, under 40. That's a different story.
Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PMI know it's changed much since I worked there
wait-a-minute..You worked at WoTC?
da fuk?
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.
Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.
The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.
This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.
But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.
It's the best selling version of the game ever (your personal opinion of that stat notwithstanding). I assure you, the extreme overwhelming majority of players are not racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries. Just a whole lot of normal people of all ages.
Quote from: blackstone on December 04, 2024, 03:06:44 PMQuote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PMI know it's changed much since I worked there
wait-a-minute..You worked at WoTC?
da fuk?
Yeah. For a long time.
Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PMI know it's changed much since I worked there, but many, many long term employees from the mid-90's still work there. Sure, they have to keep silent to survive long term in the toxic woke kultur, they are not neo-Marxist.
I think most people when they talk about "WotC" are talking about the management and/or lead D&D design staff. But the writing for this was on the wall when WotC purchased TSR, if John Tynes' history of the company in Salon was accurate.
(I've only kept in touch with one former WotC employee, formerly of TSR, but he was always a maverick. :) )
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 04, 2024, 04:44:24 PMQuote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PMI know it's changed much since I worked there, but many, many long term employees from the mid-90's still work there. Sure, they have to keep silent to survive long term in the toxic woke kultur, they are not neo-Marxist.
I think most people when they talk about "WotC" are talking about the management and/or lead D&D design staff. But the writing for this was on the wall when WotC purchased TSR, if John Tynes' history of the company in Salon was accurate.
(I've only kept in touch with one former WotC employee, formerly of TSR, but he was always a maverick. :) )
Nah those wild days that Tyne wrote about were over by the time of the Hasbro buy out. Whatever might have remained left with the massive OCT 2000 layoffs. WotC went from 1700+ employees, to around 400 that day. Just a normal corporation. Hasbro was mostly hands off back then. Not like now where it's the subsidiary propping up the holding conglomerate.
Quote from: Eric Diaz on December 04, 2024, 12:01:36 PMI'd like to hear more about that. I gave 2024 D&D a brief glance and didn't particularly like it. The only thing I like is that there is a free version. My impressions are here:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2024/09/d-2024-is-free.html
It really comes down to first off if you *Like* 5th edition's version of Dungeons and Dragons. If one doesn't, then nothing in 2024 is going to change their mind.
Now with that out of the way, assuming one does like 5th edition, I'll give the reasons why I think it's an improvement.
Martials ended up getting a lot of great buffs overall to bring them more in par with casters. Weapon Masteries are awesome, and with a change in rules that you can draw or stow a weapon during an attack action, Martials can now chain combos together to pull off some really cool stuff.
A lot of Spells that were broken were brought into line, and spell casting rules were made more clear for preventing abuse or situations like Silvery Barbs being the best spell ever. Casters are still powerful ((Unlike in Pathfinder 2e where they were over-nerfed)) but they just aren't far and away better in every way than their martial companions. A smart player will be able to maximize a spellcaster of course, but the martials won't end up feeling superfulous anymore.
Bringing everyone's Subclass into level 3 brings some nice uniformity to the classes as a whole and greater balance among them. Warlocks and Clerics don't pick their Patron/Domain until level 3 now instead of level 1... and some people have complained about this, but overall as many have pointed out... Level 1 and 2 are sort of "Tutorial levels" for 5th edition... and making it so everyone gets their subclass at level 3 means the classes and subclasses as a whole are better balanced against one another.
It's been said that 2024 raises the "Power level" of characters... but I think that's not the right way to say it... It's more that, nobody sucks anymore. Where as in 5th edition 2014 there were clear winners and losers... in 2024 it's more every class and subclass is effective and PCs are less punished for playing a concept they think is cool instead of perfectly optimizing...
You have things like Paladin smite being completely changed which some people would think is a "nerf" but really it prevents the Paladin from Novaing the BBEG in one round, killing it by blowing all their spells at once, and preventing anyone else from even being able to particpate in the combat.
Cleric healing has been increased so that Healing in combat is actually more viable now, which in turn has led to the rework of the CR system in the DMG. The reworked CR system actually makes things challenging and harder for players ((A good thing since one of 2014's biggest complaints is how the CR system is borked)) and all the previews from the new MM point to Monsters being *STRONGER* which will further make the DM's job easier at making challenging encounters the PCs can't just steamrole.
So overall I say... if you *LIKE* 5th edition... 2024 is the better version of it. It really is the 3.5 to 3rd edition for well..5th edition.
But as I said, if you never liked 5th edition.... 2024 isn't gonna change your mind. It's a refinement, not a revolution.
Quote from: Orphan81 on December 04, 2024, 06:57:25 PMQuote from: Eric Diaz on December 04, 2024, 12:01:36 PMI'd like to hear more about that. I gave 2024 D&D a brief glance and didn't particularly like it. The only thing I like is that there is a free version. My impressions are here:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2024/09/d-2024-is-free.html
It really comes down to first off if you *Like* 5th edition's version of Dungeons and Dragons. If one doesn't, then nothing in 2024 is going to change their mind.
Now with that out of the way, assuming one does like 5th edition, I'll give the reasons why I think it's an improvement.
Martials ended up getting a lot of great buffs overall to bring them more in par with casters. Weapon Masteries are awesome, and with a change in rules that you can draw or stow a weapon during an attack action, Martials can now chain combos together to pull off some really cool stuff.
A lot of Spells that were broken were brought into line, and spell casting rules were made more clear for preventing abuse or situations like Silvery Barbs being the best spell ever. Casters are still powerful ((Unlike in Pathfinder 2e where they were over-nerfed)) but they just aren't far and away better in every way than their martial companions. A smart player will be able to maximize a spellcaster of course, but the martials won't end up feeling superfulous anymore.
Bringing everyone's Subclass into level 3 brings some nice uniformity to the classes as a whole and greater balance among them. Warlocks and Clerics don't pick their Patron/Domain until level 3 now instead of level 1... and some people have complained about this, but overall as many have pointed out... Level 1 and 2 are sort of "Tutorial levels" for 5th edition... and making it so everyone gets their subclass at level 3 means the classes and subclasses as a whole are better balanced against one another.
It's been said that 2024 raises the "Power level" of characters... but I think that's not the right way to say it... It's more that, nobody sucks anymore. Where as in 5th edition 2014 there were clear winners and losers... in 2024 it's more every class and subclass is effective and PCs are less punished for playing a concept they think is cool instead of perfectly optimizing...
You have things like Paladin smite being completely changed which some people would think is a "nerf" but really it prevents the Paladin from Novaing the BBEG in one round, killing it by blowing all their spells at once, and preventing anyone else from even being able to particpate in the combat.
Cleric healing has been increased so that Healing in combat is actually more viable now, which in turn has led to the rework of the CR system in the DMG. The reworked CR system actually makes things challenging and harder for players ((A good thing since one of 2014's biggest complaints is how the CR system is borked)) and all the previews from the new MM point to Monsters being *STRONGER* which will further make the DM's job easier at making challenging encounters the PCs can't just steamrole.
So overall I say... if you *LIKE* 5th edition... 2024 is the better version of it. It really is the 3.5 to 3rd edition for well..5th edition.
But as I said, if you never liked 5th edition.... 2024 isn't gonna change your mind. It's a refinement, not a revolution.
I love Mearls era 5E, but the game starting taking a dive when he was ousted and Crawford took over. Almost everything since Tasha's has been hot woke garbage.
Then again, I loved 3.0 and disliked 3.5, so I'm the outlier.
I freely admit that I don't have deep mechanical problems with 5E--but I haven't engaged with it enough to form more than a cursory judgement. My issues remain setting-based and cultural, both on the corporate and audience side.
Also, with numerous previous editions, variants, etc., I don't see a compelling need to invest in 5E, especially since I barely play anyway. :)
Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 07:18:43 PMQuote from: Orphan81 on December 04, 2024, 06:57:25 PMQuote from: Eric Diaz on December 04, 2024, 12:01:36 PMI'd like to hear more about that. I gave 2024 D&D a brief glance and didn't particularly like it. The only thing I like is that there is a free version. My impressions are here:
https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2024/09/d-2024-is-free.html
It really comes down to first off if you *Like* 5th edition's version of Dungeons and Dragons. If one doesn't, then nothing in 2024 is going to change their mind.
Now with that out of the way, assuming one does like 5th edition, I'll give the reasons why I think it's an improvement.
Martials ended up getting a lot of great buffs overall to bring them more in par with casters. Weapon Masteries are awesome, and with a change in rules that you can draw or stow a weapon during an attack action, Martials can now chain combos together to pull off some really cool stuff.
A lot of Spells that were broken were brought into line, and spell casting rules were made more clear for preventing abuse or situations like Silvery Barbs being the best spell ever. Casters are still powerful ((Unlike in Pathfinder 2e where they were over-nerfed)) but they just aren't far and away better in every way than their martial companions. A smart player will be able to maximize a spellcaster of course, but the martials won't end up feeling superfulous anymore.
Bringing everyone's Subclass into level 3 brings some nice uniformity to the classes as a whole and greater balance among them. Warlocks and Clerics don't pick their Patron/Domain until level 3 now instead of level 1... and some people have complained about this, but overall as many have pointed out... Level 1 and 2 are sort of "Tutorial levels" for 5th edition... and making it so everyone gets their subclass at level 3 means the classes and subclasses as a whole are better balanced against one another.
It's been said that 2024 raises the "Power level" of characters... but I think that's not the right way to say it... It's more that, nobody sucks anymore. Where as in 5th edition 2014 there were clear winners and losers... in 2024 it's more every class and subclass is effective and PCs are less punished for playing a concept they think is cool instead of perfectly optimizing...
You have things like Paladin smite being completely changed which some people would think is a "nerf" but really it prevents the Paladin from Novaing the BBEG in one round, killing it by blowing all their spells at once, and preventing anyone else from even being able to particpate in the combat.
Cleric healing has been increased so that Healing in combat is actually more viable now, which in turn has led to the rework of the CR system in the DMG. The reworked CR system actually makes things challenging and harder for players ((A good thing since one of 2014's biggest complaints is how the CR system is borked)) and all the previews from the new MM point to Monsters being *STRONGER* which will further make the DM's job easier at making challenging encounters the PCs can't just steamrole.
So overall I say... if you *LIKE* 5th edition... 2024 is the better version of it. It really is the 3.5 to 3rd edition for well..5th edition.
But as I said, if you never liked 5th edition.... 2024 isn't gonna change your mind. It's a refinement, not a revolution.
I love Mearls era 5E, but the game starting taking a dive when he was ousted and Crawford took over. Almost everything since Tasha's has been hot woke garbage.
Then again, I loved 3.0 and disliked 3.5, so I'm the outlier.
You're not alone.
Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 04, 2024, 09:37:59 AMQuote from: M2A0 on December 03, 2024, 09:19:15 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.
Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.
The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.
This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.
But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.
Wow Pundit, you're approaching SHARK territory proclaiming that WotC is full of communist. Idiots, assholes, arrogant bastards sure, but I doubt there are more than a handful that are actually Marxist.
Depends on what you mean by "actually Marxist". I'm using the broad term of post-modern fashionable neo-marxism. And in that context, virtually everyone working at WotC below the level of Executive is definitely a Marxist.
I know it's changed much since I worked there, but many, many long term employees from the mid-90's still work there. Sure, they have to keep silent to survive long term in the toxic woke kultur, they are not neo-Marxist.
The young ones, under 40. That's a different story.
Have you checked lately? Because as far as I can see after the last big purge, almost all of the TSR people are gone.
Certainly, no one pretending to be a "game designer" in WotC is from the old guard.
Quote from: Mistwell on December 04, 2024, 03:23:35 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.
Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.
The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.
This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.
But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.
It's the best selling version of the game ever (your personal opinion of that stat notwithstanding). I assure you, the extreme overwhelming majority of players are not racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries. Just a whole lot of normal people of all ages.
If they were normal, they will be just as furious at the shit-smearing attack on Gary Gygax and on the original game.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 04, 2024, 09:17:36 PMQuote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 04, 2024, 09:37:59 AMQuote from: M2A0 on December 03, 2024, 09:19:15 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 07:11:29 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 03, 2024, 04:34:54 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 03, 2024, 09:22:24 AMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMQuote from: BoxCrayonTales on December 01, 2024, 10:41:30 AMThe management of Hasbro has no fucking clue what they're doing. They're developing video games like Exodus in-house, licensing Transformers tabletop games to other companies, and attacking their customer base on social media.
How are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
The book in question, The Origins of D&D, was obviously made to cater to old-school fans. They attacked that particular customer base IN THE BOOK ITSELF.
Pretty sure it's intended for the current D&D audience who are curious about the origins of D&D because they were not around for it.
The people playing racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries don't give a fuck about the history of the game, and certainly weren't going to spend $100 on a deluxe hardcover book who's biggest marketing point was the rules to the first draft of Gygax's D&D rules.
This was obviously intended to be a luxury-item product FOR GROGNARDS, to bring them back into the fold or at least tap them for money.
But because communists are all retarded, they literally COULD NOT CONTROL THEMSELVES long enough not to accuse the creator of D&D and all his fans of being EVIL, and the game tainted.
Wow Pundit, you're approaching SHARK territory proclaiming that WotC is full of communist. Idiots, assholes, arrogant bastards sure, but I doubt there are more than a handful that are actually Marxist.
Depends on what you mean by "actually Marxist". I'm using the broad term of post-modern fashionable neo-marxism. And in that context, virtually everyone working at WotC below the level of Executive is definitely a Marxist.
I know it's changed much since I worked there, but many, many long term employees from the mid-90's still work there. Sure, they have to keep silent to survive long term in the toxic woke kultur, they are not neo-Marxist.
The young ones, under 40. That's a different story.
Have you checked lately? Because as far as I can see after the last big purge, almost all of the TSR people are gone.
Certainly, no one pretending to be a "game designer" in WotC is from the old guard.
The only people from TSR after about 2003 were Kim Mohan, Steve Winter, Rich Baker, Chris Perkins, and Bill Slaviseck. With the exception of Perkins they have all been gone for over a decade. Once the magazines were split off into Paizo there really wasn't anyone left from TSR. It's going on a full 2 decades now. I don't think recent events have anything to do with the lack of TSR alumni.
Quote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 05:05:31 PMQuote from: Armchair Gamer on December 04, 2024, 04:44:24 PMQuote from: M2A0 on December 04, 2024, 02:48:32 PMI know it's changed much since I worked there, but many, many long term employees from the mid-90's still work there. Sure, they have to keep silent to survive long term in the toxic woke kultur, they are not neo-Marxist.
I think most people when they talk about "WotC" are talking about the management and/or lead D&D design staff. But the writing for this was on the wall when WotC purchased TSR, if John Tynes' history of the company in Salon was accurate.
(I've only kept in touch with one former WotC employee, formerly of TSR, but he was always a maverick. :) )
Nah those wild days that Tyne wrote about were over by the time of the Hasbro buy out. Whatever might have remained left with the massive OCT 2000 layoffs. WotC went from 1700+ employees, to around 400 that day. Just a normal corporation. Hasbro was mostly hands off back then. Not like now where it's the subsidiary propping up the holding conglomerate.
Pretty much what I was told by a few friends who used to work for wotc as well.
That and the numerous mistakes Hasbro made handing board game projects off to wotc. Who would then nigh invariably botch it.
The startup and then closing of the WOTC Stores was a double sore point as well. They used Games Workshop tactics to shut out any FLGS, treated staff poorly, became increasingly more in-house only and finally shut down.
Perkins stepping down as a lead is probably a sign they'll change things more.
The 2013-2015 period Acquisitions are by far my favorite. They really used to love the game back then and it showed. But apparently Hasbro cares more about investors than the hobby so it's not surprising how things turned out.
Quote from: Mistwell on December 04, 2024, 03:23:35 PMIt's the best selling version of the game ever (your personal opinion of that stat notwithstanding). I assure you, the extreme overwhelming majority of players are not racequeer trisexual tiefling/orc furries. Just a whole lot of normal people of all ages.
That may be true, but it doesn't excuse WoTC's hubris towards the normal people.
Quote from: Omega on December 04, 2024, 11:18:53 PMThe startup and then closing of the WOTC Stores was a double sore point as well. They used Games Workshop tactics to shut out any FLGS, treated staff poorly, became increasingly more in-house only and finally shut down.
Back in 2001 when I was living in the Puget Sound area (Bremerton), there was a WoTC store at a mall not too far from where I lived.
I bought my Hackmaster 4th edition books from that store.
The irony: going to their store loaded with 3e stuff, which I was NOT a fan of, and discovered HM4E. Arguably the original OSR game before the OSR was a thing.
Quote from: blackstone on December 05, 2024, 10:57:34 AMQuote from: Omega on December 04, 2024, 11:18:53 PMThe startup and then closing of the WOTC Stores was a double sore point as well. They used Games Workshop tactics to shut out any FLGS, treated staff poorly, became increasingly more in-house only and finally shut down.
Back in 2001 when I was living in the Puget Sound area (Bremerton), there was a WoTC store at a mall not too far from where I lived.
I bought my Hackmaster 4th edition books from that store.
The irony: going to their store loaded with 3e stuff, which I was NOT a fan of, and discovered HM4E. Arguably the original OSR game before the OSR was a thing.
Hackmaster 4E only existed because Kenner is a lawyer & knew WotC fucked up big time with the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM. He was able to secure use of AD&D with the serial #'s files off, and was able to label all Kalamar products as Dungeons & Dragons.
Pretty bad ass power move imho.
Quote from: M2A0 on December 05, 2024, 12:29:28 PMHackmaster 4E only existed because Kenner is a lawyer & knew WotC fucked up big time with the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM. He was able to secure use of AD&D with the serial #'s files off, and was able to label all Kalamar products as Dungeons & Dragons.
Pretty bad ass power move imho.
Yep. I was pretty tight with Dave, Jolly, Brian, and the rest of the gang when HM 4e was a thing. I was DMing HM at GenCon and Origins for them, helping out the booth a couple of times. Even was head GM for the Origins Hackmaster tournament one year...
right up until Dave decided to go his own way and redesign Hackmaster, getting away from the core AD&D game mechanic.
That drove A LOT of people away. Fanbase practically dried up.
I understand why he had to get out from under WoTC's thumb when it came to the license they had. WoTC kept ratcheting up the requirements to meet the parody clause to where it was almost impossible to meet. Believe me, Dave, Jolly, and I had many a drunken conversation about it at Origins.
I wish they went more of a OSRIC route IMO. It was the AD&D/D&D mechanic we loved about the game that attracted us to it...Along with sticking it to WoTC.
Oh well. It's all in the past now.
Quote from: blackstone on December 05, 2024, 03:05:36 PMQuote from: M2A0 on December 05, 2024, 12:29:28 PMHackmaster 4E only existed because Kenner is a lawyer & knew WotC fucked up big time with the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM. He was able to secure use of AD&D with the serial #'s files off, and was able to label all Kalamar products as Dungeons & Dragons.
Pretty bad ass power move imho.
Yep. I was pretty tight with Dave, Jolly, Brian, and the rest of the gang when HM 4e was a thing. I was DMing HM at GenCon and Origins for them, helping out the booth a couple of times. Even was head GM for the Origins Hackmaster tournament one year...
right up until Dave decided to go his own way and redesign Hackmaster, getting away from the core AD&D game mechanic.
That drove A LOT of people away. Fanbase practically dried up.
I understand why he had to get out from under WoTC's thumb when it came to the license they had. WoTC kept ratcheting up the requirements to meet the parody clause to where it was almost impossible to meet. Believe me, Dave, Jolly, and I had many a drunken conversation about it at Origins.
I wish they went more of a OSRIC route IMO. It was the AD&D/D&D mechanic we loved about the game that attracted us to it...Along with sticking it to WoTC.
Oh well. It's all in the past now.
Yeah I wasn't a fan of the Aces & Eights system they used.
No choice though, WotC tried to kill all deals before 4E launched. That's how you get Pathfinder
Quote from: SHARK on December 04, 2024, 09:50:43 AMGreetings!
Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, all of them have been deeply infiltrated, indoctrinated, and influenced by Communist ideology.
I would bet 90% of the people that work at WOTC identify as one or more of those. Thus, they are embracing Communist ideology, Communist policies, anti-Capitalism, Anti-America, BLM, ANTIFA, anti-gun, all that kind of mind virus--and yes, being WOKE. So, whether they would actually claim specifically to be Communists doesn't matter. They are still being soaked in Communism.
You might have problems with that, but most of America recognizes that I AM RIGHT, whether you like it or not. More and more Americans are waking up to how deeply corrupted the Democrats, the Liberals, the Progressives, have become, and how much they love Communism.
So, ultimately, I don't care if they are card-carrying members of the Communist Party. They still embrace Communism, and work to secure and strengthen Woke tyranny in America.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Heh Brianna Wu on Triggernometry even said the Democrats need to flush the Communists.
Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMHow are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
While I do get your point, I don't think most of the people here are as dyed in the wool as you're assuming. If they eased off the weird racial stuff and a sixth edition came out that was the best game ever, a breathtaking celebration of the dungeon crawl, I am pretty sure most of the users on this site would be buying it. By and large, people bailed on 4e because they disliked it, not from any beef with the company as a whole. Then 5e came out and again, I didn't buy it because I looked it over and felt the PHB classes were bland, not due to Wizards being a bunch of dickbags. It wasn't until we started getting into Trump's first term that Wizards started veering into the culture war and actively pissing people off. Until then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product. NOW I am boycotting the company. Those are two different things.
Quote from: Valatar on December 05, 2024, 06:36:10 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMHow are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
While I do get your point, I don't think most of the people here are as dyed in the wool as you're assuming. If they eased off the weird racial stuff and a sixth edition came out that was the best game ever, a breathtaking celebration of the dungeon crawl, I am pretty sure most of the users on this site would be buying it. By and large, people bailed on 4e because they disliked it, not from any beef with the company as a whole. Then 5e came out and again, I didn't buy it because I looked it over and felt the PHB classes were bland, not due to Wizards being a bunch of dickbags. It wasn't until we started getting into Trump's first term that Wizards started veering into the culture war and actively pissing people off. Until then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product. NOW I am boycotting the company. Those are two different things.
It is also worth keeping in mind the culture war stuff isn't always this binary thing in terms of pissing people off. Plenty of people who didn't vote for Trump, and were on the left, were irritated by how these issues were handled in popular media and in games like D&D
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 05, 2024, 06:48:35 PMQuote from: Valatar on December 05, 2024, 06:36:10 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMHow are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
While I do get your point, I don't think most of the people here are as dyed in the wool as you're assuming. If they eased off the weird racial stuff and a sixth edition came out that was the best game ever, a breathtaking celebration of the dungeon crawl, I am pretty sure most of the users on this site would be buying it. By and large, people bailed on 4e because they disliked it, not from any beef with the company as a whole. Then 5e came out and again, I didn't buy it because I looked it over and felt the PHB classes were bland, not due to Wizards being a bunch of dickbags. It wasn't until we started getting into Trump's first term that Wizards started veering into the culture war and actively pissing people off. Until then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product. NOW I am boycotting the company. Those are two different things.
It is also worth keeping in mind the culture war stuff isn't always this binary thing in terms of pissing people off. Plenty of people who didn't vote for Trump, and were on the left, were irritated by how these issues were handled in popular media and in games like D&D
That would be me. It represented an internal faction within WotC being losing the kulturkamp. Without Mearls, 5E lost its design principles.
Quote from: crkrueger on December 05, 2024, 03:50:14 PMQuote from: SHARK on December 04, 2024, 09:50:43 AMGreetings!
Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, all of them have been deeply infiltrated, indoctrinated, and influenced by Communist ideology.
I would bet 90% of the people that work at WOTC identify as one or more of those. Thus, they are embracing Communist ideology, Communist policies, anti-Capitalism, Anti-America, BLM, ANTIFA, anti-gun, all that kind of mind virus--and yes, being WOKE. So, whether they would actually claim specifically to be Communists doesn't matter. They are still being soaked in Communism.
You might have problems with that, but most of America recognizes that I AM RIGHT, whether you like it or not. More and more Americans are waking up to how deeply corrupted the Democrats, the Liberals, the Progressives, have become, and how much they love Communism.
So, ultimately, I don't care if they are card-carrying members of the Communist Party. They still embrace Communism, and work to secure and strengthen Woke tyranny in America.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Heh Brianna Wu on Triggernometry even said the Democrats need to flush the Communists.
Greetings!
Interesting, crkrueger! Though, when I look at what our universities are like now, it is obvious that the racist, Feminist, Communists are in full power. The pro-Hamas, Anti-America freaks have assumed full control. The Communist tyrants are here, and they are not going anywhere. The Democrat Party is stuck with them, as the Communists are in full command. Any reasonable Democrat has been silenced--they have typically resigned and or retired already. The Communists have no reservations about turning on anyone in their midst that doesn't fully kneel to the tyrant orthodoxy.
This reality can be seen also at work amongst the Liberal media. Watch how they stab and bite each other savagely, trying to preen and place each themselves as being true believers in the Woke faith, while those that have made even some minor mistake, some minor deviation or disagreement from the ultimate creed of Woke Communism--they get savagely mobbed and torn to pieces.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 05, 2024, 06:48:35 PMQuote from: Valatar on December 05, 2024, 06:36:10 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMHow are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
While I do get your point, I don't think most of the people here are as dyed in the wool as you're assuming. If they eased off the weird racial stuff and a sixth edition came out that was the best game ever, a breathtaking celebration of the dungeon crawl, I am pretty sure most of the users on this site would be buying it. By and large, people bailed on 4e because they disliked it, not from any beef with the company as a whole. Then 5e came out and again, I didn't buy it because I looked it over and felt the PHB classes were bland, not due to Wizards being a bunch of dickbags. It wasn't until we started getting into Trump's first term that Wizards started veering into the culture war and actively pissing people off. Until then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product. NOW I am boycotting the company. Those are two different things.
It is also worth keeping in mind the culture war stuff isn't always this binary thing in terms of pissing people off. Plenty of people who didn't vote for Trump, and were on the left, were irritated by how these issues were handled in popular media and in games like D&D
I think some of the problem with a culture war was evident when 4E came out. There was a significant part of WotC advertising that was anti-old school and mocked long term players of the game. While I bought the 4E books to give the system a chance (WotC failed), I was still irritated that the sales weasels were making fun of people who liked 3.x and earlier versions when it was they who had kept the brand afloat (at that time, I had about $3000 total in 3.x books and minis). So the attitude was there.
I do agree that it was during Trump's first term that the hostility was turned up to 11.
Quote from: Valatar on December 05, 2024, 06:36:10 PMUntil then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product. NOW I am boycotting the company. Those are two different things.
I was completely underwhelmed by their lack of quality and a bad habit of writing filler material. Then I was boycotting because they hated me. Then, the combination of the two things became such a trend that I don't even consider them at all. Kind of the same way that I don't go to a movie theater anymore, even for the rare movies that I might actually enjoy--if I could be bothered to pay attention long enough to determine that.
To reverse that, they'd have to fire everyone there currently, hire a good team, produce good material for some time--and then later I might come back. Though they aren't as far gone as the film industry. It's highly unlikely I'll ever buy a movie ticket again.
Quote from: jeff37923 on December 05, 2024, 08:08:47 PMQuote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 05, 2024, 06:48:35 PMQuote from: Valatar on December 05, 2024, 06:36:10 PMQuote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMHow are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.
While I do get your point, I don't think most of the people here are as dyed in the wool as you're assuming. If they eased off the weird racial stuff and a sixth edition came out that was the best game ever, a breathtaking celebration of the dungeon crawl, I am pretty sure most of the users on this site would be buying it. By and large, people bailed on 4e because they disliked it, not from any beef with the company as a whole. Then 5e came out and again, I didn't buy it because I looked it over and felt the PHB classes were bland, not due to Wizards being a bunch of dickbags. It wasn't until we started getting into Trump's first term that Wizards started veering into the culture war and actively pissing people off. Until then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product. NOW I am boycotting the company. Those are two different things.
It is also worth keeping in mind the culture war stuff isn't always this binary thing in terms of pissing people off. Plenty of people who didn't vote for Trump, and were on the left, were irritated by how these issues were handled in popular media and in games like D&D
I think some of the problem with a culture war was evident when 4E came out. There was a significant part of WotC advertising that was anti-old school and mocked long term players of the game. While I bought the 4E books to give the system a chance (WotC failed), I was still irritated that the sales weasels were making fun of people who liked 3.x and earlier versions when it was they who had kept the brand afloat (at that time, I had about $3000 total in 3.x books and minis). So the attitude was there.
I do agree that it was during Trump's first term that the hostility was turned up to 11.
I need to correct you for here as some one who was on the inside. That arrogant attitude that presaged and continued through the launch of 4E was 100% the fault of the D&D brand management team, and to a lesser the extent the marketing team (who were always just given marching orders). The sales dept. fought tooth and nail against this rebrand strategy that was brand driven.
I burned the majority of my personal goodwill I had built up for almost a decade to prevent the worst excesses that the brand management team tried to implement. I'm one of maybe a dozen people that made Essentials happen to try to stave off the inevitable utter crash of the game until 5E could save the brand. Unfortunately the delay between a decision being made and the product being released was 18 months. We knew, by early summer 2009 that 4E was an utter disaster.
1
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 05, 2024, 08:54:24 PMTo reverse that, they'd have to fire everyone there currently, hire a good team, produce good material for some time--and then later I might come back. Though they aren't as far gone as the film industry. It's highly unlikely I'll ever buy a movie ticket again.
Well yes, I don't think it would be likely or easy for Wizards to successfully draw back in the departed fanbase. As long as their current staff is in place it will never happen. But it isn't
impossible. If a new owner came in and cleaned house and course-corrected the game back into being hardened adventurers in peril instead of working the late shift at a Baldur's Gate Starbucks, they could reclaim the disenfranchised fans.
Quote from: M2A0 on December 05, 2024, 11:25:50 PMI need to correct you for here as some one who was on the inside. That arrogant attitude that presaged and continued through the launch of 4E was 100% the fault of the D&D brand management team, and to a lesser the extent the marketing team (who were always just given marching orders). The sales dept. fought tooth and nail against this rebrand strategy that was brand driven.
So, where did that come from? My suspicions are:
- The positive reaction to 3E initially, combined with the growing gripes about the system (especially online), made the design team feel that the D&D audience was more receptive to change than it actually was.
- A desire to make D&D even more 'its own thing' in terms of concept, artistic style, etc.
QuoteI burned the majority of my personal goodwill I had built up for almost a decade to prevent the worst excesses that the brand management team tried to implement. I'm one of maybe a dozen people that made Essentials happen to try to stave off the inevitable utter crash of the game until 5E could save the brand. Unfortunately the delay between a decision being made and the product being released was 18 months. We knew, by early summer 2009 that 4E was an utter disaster.
What were the major indicators and causes of this, in your view? The opening adventures being poorly received and the incredible dryness of many of the first supplements seem to be contributors, as well as postponing old favorites in favor of the hot new stuff.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 06, 2024, 08:31:05 AMQuote from: M2A0 on December 05, 2024, 11:25:50 PMI need to correct you for here as some one who was on the inside. That arrogant attitude that presaged and continued through the launch of 4E was 100% the fault of the D&D brand management team, and to a lesser the extent the marketing team (who were always just given marching orders). The sales dept. fought tooth and nail against this rebrand strategy that was brand driven.
So, where did that come from? My suspicions are:- The positive reaction to 3E initially, combined with the growing gripes about the system (especially online), made the design team feel that the D&D audience was more receptive to change than it actually was.
- A desire to make D&D even more 'its own thing' in terms of concept, artistic style, etc.
QuoteI burned the majority of my personal goodwill I had built up for almost a decade to prevent the worst excesses that the brand management team tried to implement. I'm one of maybe a dozen people that made Essentials happen to try to stave off the inevitable utter crash of the game until 5E could save the brand. Unfortunately the delay between a decision being made and the product being released was 18 months. We knew, by early summer 2009 that 4E was an utter disaster.
What were the major indicators and causes of this, in your view? The opening adventures being poorly received and the incredible dryness of many of the first supplements seem to be contributors, as well as postponing old favorites in favor of the hot new stuff.
I'm curious as well.
Quote from: jeff37923 on December 05, 2024, 08:08:47 PMI think some of the problem with a culture war was evident when 4E came out. There was a significant part of WotC advertising that was anti-old school and mocked long term players of the game.
It (4e marketing pissing on old editions) wasn't related to the Culture War. They spent as much or more time mocking 3e as mocking pre-3e. James Wyatt's "D&D is about killing horrible monsters! Not traipsing through Fairy Rings talking with the Little People!" would get him a round of applause from the Babylon Bee these days. :D
The Culture War itself was barely a thing in 2008. The Left had been pissing on the Right since around 1990, but the Right never fought back. I remember how surprised I was the first time I ever saw a Right-wing pundit, Ann Coulter, actually being mean to the Left. That would have been I think in the 2008 election campaign. Nowadays the Culture War is actually a war, but until the Left overstepped with Transmania, it was more of a Culture Holodomor.
Quote from: S'mon on December 06, 2024, 09:23:59 AMIt (4e marketing pissing on old editions) wasn't related to the Culture War. They spent as much or more time mocking 3e as mocking pre-3e. James Wyatt's "D&D is about killing horrible monsters! Not traipsing through Fairy Rings talking with the Little People!" would get him a round of applause from the Babylon Bee these days. :D
I've seen WotC manage three full edition changes, and two things were more or less constant:
- The previous edition is always mocked and derided.
- The 'golden age' of Gygaxian AD&D is held up as the ideal.
Now, the changeover to 5E24 wasn't admitted to be an edition change, which accounts for the first not happening, and it seems that the cultural changeover since 2014 has removed the second from the equation as well.
Quick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).
The two big factors I think were Pathfinder stealing back (rightfully) a large portion of the player base, and the fact that 4E books were not very enjoyable to read, and caused decision anxiety for casual players. There are numerous other reason. Corporate hubris, the focus on selling miniatures, a desire to break away from the paradigm of 3.x, designer hubris, etc......
I don't have time atm to type up a more detailed response.
Quote from: blackstone on December 05, 2024, 10:57:34 AMQuote from: Omega on December 04, 2024, 11:18:53 PMThe startup and then closing of the WOTC Stores was a double sore point as well. They used Games Workshop tactics to shut out any FLGS, treated staff poorly, became increasingly more in-house only and finally shut down.
Back in 2001 when I was living in the Puget Sound area (Bremerton), there was a WoTC store at a mall not too far from where I lived.
I bought my Hackmaster 4th edition books from that store.
The irony: going to their store loaded with 3e stuff, which I was NOT a fan of, and discovered HM4E. Arguably the original OSR game before the OSR was a thing.
Same here. For a while they had a shelf with stuff from other companies. Black book Traveler was one recall. But over time that section got smaller and smaller. The store Games Workshop took over the change was very abrupt. One week there was a whole isle dedicated to RPGs and minis wargames. The next its all gone. GW has a requirement that you can only carry GW product if you sign on. Was pretty wretched back then.
Quote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).
I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.
Quote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AMQuote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).
I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.
It's gaslighting all the way down. Hate what you love. You must upgrade to the new hotness.
Quote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AMQuote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).
I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.
Greetings!
Yeah, I remember all of those arrogant, smug, gaslighting morons. I KNEW that 4E was absolutely embracing WoW concepts, from front to back, as much as possible.
I had been playing WoW for years, had been a guild officer, and a guild leader. I knew all about WoW, and the fact that these idiots would sit there and try and tell me that 4E was not trying to be WoW, and wasn't embracing video game elements in a HUGE way--just made me laugh at them in contempt. I just crushed them and their petty arguments as a pathetic kind of delusion.
Anyone that has played WoW for any length of time can see WoW elements all over the place with 4E.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Well, since I've never touched WoW, Warcraft, or any of the Blizzard franchises, it's no wonder I didn't see it. :) From my point of view, the question was not "was it mimicking WoW?" but "was it a good game?" The conclusion I reached was "good (if undercooked) game, good RPG for tactical-combat heavy campaigns, bad D&D."
As a tabletop fighting game, 4E was fairly tight and well put together. For campaign D&D it was a turd.Far more than any individual video-gamey elements was overall focus of THE ENCOUNTER as the sole area of concern for the game. I dubbed this the encountardization of D&D. This concept started in 3E and really went full retard in 4E, and is still present in 5E. Gone were the mighty magics of old. All spells and abilities were restricted to affecting only the encounter. No more charming a low intelligence opponent for weeks on end. Such powers were limited to encounter use, which helped make ongoing campaigns into little more than loosely strung together encounters. That combined with the time consuming slog of creating custom NPCs and monsters (without software) that it just wasn't worth using for campaign play.
Quote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AMQuote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).
I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.
It actually was not. It was more board-gamey and was just laden with MMO-like jargon and dumbed down to the point it was not D&D at all.
Board gamers love 4e.
Quote from: S'mon on December 06, 2024, 09:23:59 AMQuote from: jeff37923 on December 05, 2024, 08:08:47 PMI think some of the problem with a culture war was evident when 4E came out. There was a significant part of WotC advertising that was anti-old school and mocked long term players of the game.
It (4e marketing pissing on old editions) wasn't related to the Culture War. They spent as much or more time mocking 3e as mocking pre-3e. James Wyatt's "D&D is about killing horrible monsters! Not traipsing through Fairy Rings talking with the Little People!" would get him a round of applause from the Babylon Bee these days. :D
The Culture War itself was barely a thing in 2008. The Left had been pissing on the Right since around 1990, but the Right never fought back. I remember how surprised I was the first time I ever saw a Right-wing pundit, Ann Coulter, actually being mean to the Left. That would have been I think in the 2008 election campaign. Nowadays the Culture War is actually a war, but until the Left overstepped with Transmania, it was more of a Culture Holodomor.
I meant culture war as a type of disagreement and not Culture War as in the still ongoing Conservative vs Liberal conflict in Western countries.
Quote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AMQuote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).
I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.
The amusing part for me is that I heard the constant comparisons to WoW, then in 2009 I actually played WoW and felt it was nothing like 4e beyond the superfluous idea of "abilities" and "class roles".
Personally I enjoyed 4e, it had engaging combat and interesting and fun abilities. The problem was it did not feel like D&D, but ironically it as much closer to to the D&D-as-wargame roots than anything which came before or after it.
Quote from: Nobleshield on December 08, 2024, 07:54:19 AMPersonally I enjoyed 4e, it had engaging combat and interesting and fun abilities. The problem was it did not feel like D&D, but ironically it as much closer to to the D&D-as-wargame roots than anything which came before or after it.
But as Exploderwizard points out, it's much more aligned to the tactical side of wargaming than the long-term campaign mode, and over the past 15+ years, much of the OSR has been moving back to the LTC mode and other styles (sandbox, open table, the
Jeffrogaxian Fremen BrOSR) that 4E does not support well at all. I appreciate a lot of what 4E did in the abstract, but as part of the D&D tradition, especially when many people were trying to revisit the roots of that tradition, it fell short. This is one of the reasons I say that 4E zigged where the market zagged, as one of the many reasons for its derailment.
Pathfinder 2e is pretty much taking the ideas of 4th edition that were good (multiple tight deliberate abilities for PCs with an action economy spelled out. Extremely tight math, balanced encounters) and marrying it to the D&D model (nothing is a 'daily' or 'encounter' focus on long term campaigns and what PCs do outside of just killing shit.)
I remember that was the biggest disconnect for my table at the time with 4th edition. The fact the fighter and thief had "Powers" that could only be used in encounters or once a day. Like they had magic powers of their own that needed to recharge despite being "Martial" characters.
The combat was fun though, even if it took forever. 13th age was an evolution of 4th edition and ended up introducing something called the "Fray Die" which added an increase in damage to everyone's attacks the longer a fight went on. It helped to speed things up from what I understand.
Greetings!
I immediately despised 4E, and I am glad that it choked and died a horrible death. 4E was an absolute disaster for D&D and a terrible failure for WOTC across the board. It damned near ruined the entire franchise of D&D.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
I predicted exactly what the loss would be when 4e came out. That's part of why I was hired immediately for 5e, because 4e was strongly influenced by Forge Theory of what a "gamist" game should be like, and I was the best-known ideological opposite to the Forge, whose theory proved a massive failure. My ideas proved to be a massive success.
Quote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:09:21 AMI predicted exactly what the loss would be when 4e came out. That's part of why I was hired immediately for 5e, because 4e was strongly influenced by Forge Theory of what a "gamist" game should be like, and I was the best-known ideological opposite to the Forge, whose theory proved a massive failure. My ideas proved to be a massive success.
Theres still morons trying to push Forge/GNS sphiel.
Quote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).
The two big factors I think were Pathfinder stealing back (rightfully) a large portion of the player base, and the fact that 4E books were not very enjoyable to read, and caused decision anxiety for casual players. There are numerous other reason. Corporate hubris, the focus on selling miniatures, a desire to break away from the paradigm of 3.x, designer hubris, etc......
You are correct.
The designers who didn't get their way on 3.0 took their vengeance out on 4.0, and were proven that their design ideas were utterly wrong for D&D. 5.0 fixed many of the 4th edition screwups. And fixed a lot of what was wrong with 3rd. As a mass market version of D&D 5th is about as good as we're going to get.
I did pick up the 5.5 edition, or whatever we are calling it. I was initially impressed by the layout and organization. But I'm halfway through reading it and it is f'n TERRIBLE. I can't believe how bad it is. It is a fevered WOKE nightmare where the Seattle blue-hairs got everything they wanted.
It is barf inducing to see such high quality art and layout put to such disservice. I don't blame the artists, some of them are incredible, it is the Art Directors doing the bidding of their Woke overlords. And the flavor of the writing is even worse!
Quote from: SHARK on December 07, 2024, 07:32:45 AMQuote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AMQuote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).
I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.
Greetings!
Yeah, I remember all of those arrogant, smug, gaslighting morons. I KNEW that 4E was absolutely embracing WoW concepts, from front to back, as much as possible.
I had been playing WoW for years, had been a guild officer, and a guild leader. I knew all about WoW, and the fact that these idiots would sit there and try and tell me that 4E was not trying to be WoW, and wasn't embracing video game elements in a HUGE way--just made me laugh at them in contempt. I just crushed them and their petty arguments as a pathetic kind of delusion.
Anyone that has played WoW for any length of time can see WoW elements all over the place with 4E.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It was totally video-gamey. I played the hell out of Wow back in those days and I thought the same. It was not a Wow clone to be sure but it was clearly inspired.
I still don't think this was the worst element of 4th edition though. For me it was how similar the classes seemed to play. They all seemed to have the same ability under different names. (Double weapon damage + ability score) 1/ encounter. Things like that.
Also, as others pointed out, it geared the game heavily towards balancing encounters. The game was encounter obsessed.
I actually think this resulted in a game that was very well balanced. So well balanced that it was sort of boring to play. Sometimes imbalance is where the fun comes in.
It's almost like these devs are obsessed with making everything equal...
Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 10, 2024, 12:02:56 AMAlso, as others pointed out, it geared the game heavily towards balancing encounters. The game was encounter obsessed.
I actually think this resulted in a game that was very well balanced. So well balanced that it was sort of boring to play. Sometimes imbalance is where the fun comes in.
It's almost like these devs are obsessed with making everything equal...
While not a great RPG, it made for a fun skirmish battle game. Just have each player select certain CR monsters and fight it out like a BattleTech game.
Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 10, 2024, 12:02:56 AMQuote from: SHARK on December 07, 2024, 07:32:45 AMQuote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AMQuote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).
I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.
Greetings!
Yeah, I remember all of those arrogant, smug, gaslighting morons. I KNEW that 4E was absolutely embracing WoW concepts, from front to back, as much as possible.
I had been playing WoW for years, had been a guild officer, and a guild leader. I knew all about WoW, and the fact that these idiots would sit there and try and tell me that 4E was not trying to be WoW, and wasn't embracing video game elements in a HUGE way--just made me laugh at them in contempt. I just crushed them and their petty arguments as a pathetic kind of delusion.
Anyone that has played WoW for any length of time can see WoW elements all over the place with 4E.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
It was totally video-gamey. I played the hell out of Wow back in those days and I thought the same. It was not a Wow clone to be sure but it was clearly inspired.
I still don't think this was the worst element of 4th edition though. For me it was how similar the classes seemed to play. They all seemed to have the same ability under different names. (Double weapon damage + ability score) 1/ encounter. Things like that.
Also, as others pointed out, it geared the game heavily towards balancing encounters. The game was encounter obsessed.
I actually think this resulted in a game that was very well balanced. So well balanced that it was sort of boring to play. Sometimes imbalance is where the fun comes in.
It's almost like these devs are obsessed with making everything equal...
Greetings!
Exactly! Yeah, 4E was hugely embracing WoW and video game elements. By now, of course, RPG's and Video Games have been cross-inspiring each other constantly. A *bit* of inspiration is usually fine, in either direction, but 4E really went over the top with the concepts--in a bad way. There are elements in a video game, ala WoW--that are fine within its own thing--but don't work well in a TTRPG. That was something that all of us WoW players could see in 4E from a mile away. "Roles", "Class Balance", spell-like powers for each and every class--we of course had also been involved and following these constant debates and cycles of evolution within WoW, so we were very familiar with them. Likewise, as a TTRPG, so many of these elements are terrible for a RPG. And yet, that is what WOTC did, full-bore.
I also agree, embracing WoW and video game elements too much was a HUGE flaw for 4E, but as you mention, it certainly wasn't the *only* problem. 4E had a *HYDRA* package of many problems that simply made it not D&D. It mangled and distorted the entire process and concept of a TTRPG. It was so pathetic, difficult, and terrible, that legions of gamers proceeded to scream about how 4E didn't "Feel like D&D". That is all a result of that whole Hydra of problems and gross sins that 4E embraced.
Some people loved 4E as a skirmish game, a wargame, blah, blah, blah. Great! That wasn't the mission though, and that was not the proper goal for a TTRPG like D&D. Box that stupid game up and give it a different name, whatever, and it would have been fine as some niche side-game.
Serve that up as D&D though? *Laughing*
Yeah, that is why it was hated, and thrown into the fires! 4E also embracing Storygaming/Forge elements also added fuel to the fire, as Pundit described.
It was glorious watching 4E writhe and die in agony.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 28, 2024, 08:11:20 PMHonestly? That's how all of WotC thinks of regular D&D fans. They see the older fans as completely disposable.
the only non disposta le fans are the paying fans, be they new or old
Quote from: Omega on December 09, 2024, 01:41:56 PMQuote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:09:21 AMI predicted exactly what the loss would be when 4e came out. That's part of why I was hired immediately for 5e, because 4e was strongly influenced by Forge Theory of what a "gamist" game should be like, and I was the best-known ideological opposite to the Forge, whose theory proved a massive failure. My ideas proved to be a massive success.
Theres still morons trying to push Forge/GNS sphiel.
Yes, but they've been largely ignored for years now. It's a failed theory.