Quote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).

The two big factors I think were Pathfinder stealing back (rightfully) a large portion of the player base, and the fact that 4E books were not very enjoyable to read, and caused decision anxiety for casual players. There are numerous other reason. Corporate hubris, the focus on selling miniatures, a desire to break away from the paradigm of 3.x, designer hubris, etc......

You are correct.

The designers who didn't get their way on 3.0 took their vengeance out on 4.0, and were proven that their design ideas were utterly wrong for D&D. 5.0 fixed many of the 4th edition screwups. And fixed a lot of what was wrong with 3rd. As a mass market version of D&D 5th is about as good as we're going to get.

I did pick up the 5.5 edition, or whatever we are calling it. I was initially impressed by the layout and organization. But I'm halfway through reading it and it is f'n TERRIBLE. I can't believe how bad it is. It is a fevered WOKE nightmare where the Seattle blue-hairs got everything they wanted.

It is barf inducing to see such high quality art and layout put to such disservice. I don't blame the artists, some of them are incredible, it is the Art Directors doing the bidding of their Woke overlords. And the flavor of the writing is even worse!

Quote from: SHARK on December 07, 2024, 07:32:45 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).

I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.

Greetings!

Yeah, I remember all of those arrogant, smug, gaslighting morons. I KNEW that 4E was absolutely embracing WoW concepts, from front to back, as much as possible.

I had been playing WoW for years, had been a guild officer, and a guild leader. I knew all about WoW, and the fact that these idiots would sit there and try and tell me that 4E was not trying to be WoW, and wasn't embracing video game elements in a HUGE way--just made me laugh at them in contempt. I just crushed them and their petty arguments as a pathetic kind of delusion.

Anyone that has played WoW for any length of time can see WoW elements all over the place with 4E.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It was totally video-gamey.  I played the hell out of Wow back in those days and I thought the same.  It was not a Wow clone to be sure but it was clearly inspired.

I still don't think this was the worst element of 4th edition though.  For me it was how similar the classes seemed to play.  They all seemed to have the same ability under different names.  (Double weapon damage + ability score) 1/ encounter.  Things like that.

Also, as others pointed out, it geared the game heavily towards balancing encounters.  The game was encounter obsessed.

I actually think this resulted in a game that was very well balanced.  So well balanced that it was sort of boring to play. Sometimes imbalance is where the fun comes in.

It's almost like these devs are obsessed with making everything equal...

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 10, 2024, 12:02:56 AMAlso, as others pointed out, it geared the game heavily towards balancing encounters.  The game was encounter obsessed.

I actually think this resulted in a game that was very well balanced.  So well balanced that it was sort of boring to play. Sometimes imbalance is where the fun comes in.

It's almost like these devs are obsessed with making everything equal...

While not a great RPG, it made for a fun skirmish battle game. Just have each player select certain CR monsters and fight it out like a BattleTech game.

Quote from: Captain_Pazuzu on December 10, 2024, 12:02:56 AM

Quote from: SHARK on December 07, 2024, 07:32:45 AM

Quote from: yosemitemike on December 07, 2024, 02:41:46 AM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 06, 2024, 09:30:04 AMQuick answer, work on 4E started in 2004, and when World of Warcraft released late that year, WotC quickly decided that they would try an mimic much as much of WoW in D&D as it could. As always, they thought they could get a VTT up and running (Dancey thought this would happen for 3.0 also).

I remember when people would lose their shit when someone suggested that 4e was video gamey or made to emulate an MMO even though it obviously was.

Greetings!

Yeah, I remember all of those arrogant, smug, gaslighting morons. I KNEW that 4E was absolutely embracing WoW concepts, from front to back, as much as possible.

I had been playing WoW for years, had been a guild officer, and a guild leader. I knew all about WoW, and the fact that these idiots would sit there and try and tell me that 4E was not trying to be WoW, and wasn't embracing video game elements in a HUGE way--just made me laugh at them in contempt. I just crushed them and their petty arguments as a pathetic kind of delusion.

Anyone that has played WoW for any length of time can see WoW elements all over the place with 4E.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

It was totally video-gamey.  I played the hell out of Wow back in those days and I thought the same.  It was not a Wow clone to be sure but it was clearly inspired.

I still don't think this was the worst element of 4th edition though.  For me it was how similar the classes seemed to play.  They all seemed to have the same ability under different names.  (Double weapon damage + ability score) 1/ encounter.  Things like that.

Also, as others pointed out, it geared the game heavily towards balancing encounters.  The game was encounter obsessed.

I actually think this resulted in a game that was very well balanced.  So well balanced that it was sort of boring to play. Sometimes imbalance is where the fun comes in.

It's almost like these devs are obsessed with making everything equal...

Greetings!

Exactly! Yeah, 4E was hugely embracing WoW and video game elements. By now, of course, RPG's and Video Games have been cross-inspiring each other constantly. A *bit* of inspiration is usually fine, in either direction, but 4E really went over the top with the concepts--in a bad way. There are elements in a video game, ala WoW--that are fine within its own thing--but don't work well in a TTRPG. That was something that all of us WoW players could see in 4E from a mile away. "Roles", "Class Balance", spell-like powers for each and every class--we of course had also been involved and following these constant debates and cycles of evolution within WoW, so we were very familiar with them. Likewise, as a TTRPG, so many of these elements are terrible for a RPG. And yet, that is what WOTC did, full-bore.

I also agree, embracing WoW and video game elements too much was a HUGE flaw for 4E, but as you mention, it certainly wasn't the *only* problem. 4E had a *HYDRA* package of many problems that simply made it not D&D. It mangled and distorted the entire process and concept of a TTRPG. It was so pathetic, difficult, and terrible, that legions of gamers proceeded to scream about how 4E didn't "Feel like D&D". That is all a result of that whole Hydra of problems and gross sins that 4E embraced.

Some people loved 4E as a skirmish game, a wargame, blah, blah, blah. Great! That wasn't the mission though, and that was not the proper goal for a TTRPG like D&D. Box that stupid game up and give it a different name, whatever, and it would have been fine as some niche side-game.

Serve that up as D&D though? *Laughing*

Yeah, that is why it was hated, and thrown into the fires! 4E also embracing Storygaming/Forge elements also added fuel to the fire, as Pundit described.

It was glorious watching 4E writhe and die in agony.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Darrin Kelley on November 28, 2024, 08:11:20 PMHonestly? That's how all of WotC thinks of regular D&D fans. They see the older fans as completely disposable.

the only non disposta le fans are the paying fans, be they new or old

Quote from: Omega on December 09, 2024, 01:41:56 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on December 09, 2024, 07:09:21 AMI predicted exactly what the loss would be when 4e came out. That's part of why I was hired immediately for 5e, because 4e was strongly influenced by Forge Theory of what a "gamist" game should be like, and I was the best-known ideological opposite to the Forge, whose theory proved a massive failure. My ideas proved to be a massive success.

Theres still morons trying to push Forge/GNS sphiel.

Yes, but they've been largely ignored for years now. It's a failed theory.