Quote from: blackstone on December 05, 2024, 03:05:36 PM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 05, 2024, 12:29:28 PMHackmaster 4E only existed because Kenner is a lawyer & knew WotC fucked up big time with the Dragon Magazine CD-ROM. He was able to secure use of AD&D with the serial #'s files off, and was able to label all Kalamar products as Dungeons & Dragons.

Pretty bad ass power move imho.

Yep. I was pretty tight with Dave, Jolly, Brian, and the rest of the gang when HM 4e was a thing. I was DMing HM at GenCon and Origins for them, helping out the booth a couple of times. Even was head GM for the Origins Hackmaster tournament one year...

right up until Dave decided to go his own way and redesign Hackmaster, getting away from the core AD&D game mechanic.

That drove A LOT of people away. Fanbase practically dried up.

I understand why he had to get out from under WoTC's thumb when it came to the license they had. WoTC kept ratcheting up the requirements to meet the parody clause to where it was almost impossible to meet. Believe me, Dave, Jolly, and I had many a drunken conversation about it at Origins.

I wish they went more of a OSRIC route IMO. It was the AD&D/D&D mechanic we loved about the game that attracted us to it...Along with sticking it to WoTC.

Oh well. It's all in the past now.

Yeah I wasn't a fan of the Aces & Eights system they used.

No choice though, WotC tried to kill all deals before 4E launched. That's how you get Pathfinder

Quote from: SHARK on December 04, 2024, 09:50:43 AMGreetings!

Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, all of them have been deeply infiltrated, indoctrinated, and influenced by Communist ideology.

I would bet 90% of the people that work at WOTC identify as one or more of those. Thus, they are embracing Communist ideology, Communist policies, anti-Capitalism, Anti-America, BLM, ANTIFA, anti-gun, all that kind of mind virus--and yes, being WOKE. So, whether they would actually claim specifically to be Communists doesn't matter. They are still being soaked in Communism.

You might have problems with that, but most of America recognizes that I AM RIGHT, whether you like it or not. More and more Americans are waking up to how deeply corrupted the Democrats, the Liberals, the Progressives, have become, and how much they love Communism.

So, ultimately, I don't care if they are card-carrying members of the Communist Party. They still embrace Communism, and work to secure and strengthen Woke tyranny in America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Heh Brianna Wu on Triggernometry even said the Democrats need to flush the Communists.

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMHow are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

While I do get your point, I don't think most of the people here are as dyed in the wool as you're assuming.  If they eased off the weird racial stuff and a sixth edition came out that was the best game ever, a breathtaking celebration of the dungeon crawl, I am pretty sure most of the users on this site would be buying it.  By and large, people bailed on 4e because they disliked it, not from any beef with the company as a whole.  Then 5e came out and again, I didn't buy it because I looked it over and felt the PHB classes were bland, not due to Wizards being a bunch of dickbags.  It wasn't until we started getting into Trump's first term that Wizards started veering into the culture war and actively pissing people off.  Until then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product.  NOW I am boycotting the company.  Those are two different things.

Quote from: Valatar on December 05, 2024, 06:36:10 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMHow are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

While I do get your point, I don't think most of the people here are as dyed in the wool as you're assuming.  If they eased off the weird racial stuff and a sixth edition came out that was the best game ever, a breathtaking celebration of the dungeon crawl, I am pretty sure most of the users on this site would be buying it.  By and large, people bailed on 4e because they disliked it, not from any beef with the company as a whole.  Then 5e came out and again, I didn't buy it because I looked it over and felt the PHB classes were bland, not due to Wizards being a bunch of dickbags.  It wasn't until we started getting into Trump's first term that Wizards started veering into the culture war and actively pissing people off.  Until then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product.  NOW I am boycotting the company.  Those are two different things.

It is also worth keeping in mind the culture war stuff isn't always this binary thing in terms of pissing people off. Plenty of people who didn't vote for Trump, and were on the left, were irritated by how these issues were handled in popular media and in games like D&D

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 05, 2024, 06:48:35 PM

Quote from: Valatar on December 05, 2024, 06:36:10 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMHow are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

While I do get your point, I don't think most of the people here are as dyed in the wool as you're assuming.  If they eased off the weird racial stuff and a sixth edition came out that was the best game ever, a breathtaking celebration of the dungeon crawl, I am pretty sure most of the users on this site would be buying it.  By and large, people bailed on 4e because they disliked it, not from any beef with the company as a whole.  Then 5e came out and again, I didn't buy it because I looked it over and felt the PHB classes were bland, not due to Wizards being a bunch of dickbags.  It wasn't until we started getting into Trump's first term that Wizards started veering into the culture war and actively pissing people off.  Until then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product.  NOW I am boycotting the company.  Those are two different things.

It is also worth keeping in mind the culture war stuff isn't always this binary thing in terms of pissing people off. Plenty of people who didn't vote for Trump, and were on the left, were irritated by how these issues were handled in popular media and in games like D&D

That would be me. It represented an internal faction within WotC being losing the kulturkamp. Without Mearls, 5E lost its design principles.

Quote from: crkrueger on December 05, 2024, 03:50:14 PM

Quote from: SHARK on December 04, 2024, 09:50:43 AMGreetings!

Liberals, Progressives, Democrats, all of them have been deeply infiltrated, indoctrinated, and influenced by Communist ideology.

I would bet 90% of the people that work at WOTC identify as one or more of those. Thus, they are embracing Communist ideology, Communist policies, anti-Capitalism, Anti-America, BLM, ANTIFA, anti-gun, all that kind of mind virus--and yes, being WOKE. So, whether they would actually claim specifically to be Communists doesn't matter. They are still being soaked in Communism.

You might have problems with that, but most of America recognizes that I AM RIGHT, whether you like it or not. More and more Americans are waking up to how deeply corrupted the Democrats, the Liberals, the Progressives, have become, and how much they love Communism.

So, ultimately, I don't care if they are card-carrying members of the Communist Party. They still embrace Communism, and work to secure and strengthen Woke tyranny in America.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Heh Brianna Wu on Triggernometry even said the Democrats need to flush the Communists.

Greetings!

Interesting, crkrueger! Though, when I look at what our universities are like now, it is obvious that the racist, Feminist, Communists are in full power. The pro-Hamas, Anti-America freaks have assumed full control. The Communist tyrants are here, and they are not going anywhere. The Democrat Party is stuck with them, as the Communists are in full command. Any reasonable Democrat has been silenced--they have typically resigned and or retired already. The Communists have no reservations about turning on anyone in their midst that doesn't fully kneel to the tyrant orthodoxy.

This reality can be seen also at work amongst the Liberal media. Watch how they stab and bite each other savagely, trying to preen and place each themselves as being true believers in the Woke faith, while those that have made even some minor mistake, some minor deviation or disagreement from the ultimate creed of Woke Communism--they get savagely mobbed and torn to pieces.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 05, 2024, 06:48:35 PM

Quote from: Valatar on December 05, 2024, 06:36:10 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMHow are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

While I do get your point, I don't think most of the people here are as dyed in the wool as you're assuming.  If they eased off the weird racial stuff and a sixth edition came out that was the best game ever, a breathtaking celebration of the dungeon crawl, I am pretty sure most of the users on this site would be buying it.  By and large, people bailed on 4e because they disliked it, not from any beef with the company as a whole.  Then 5e came out and again, I didn't buy it because I looked it over and felt the PHB classes were bland, not due to Wizards being a bunch of dickbags.  It wasn't until we started getting into Trump's first term that Wizards started veering into the culture war and actively pissing people off.  Until then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product.  NOW I am boycotting the company.  Those are two different things.

It is also worth keeping in mind the culture war stuff isn't always this binary thing in terms of pissing people off. Plenty of people who didn't vote for Trump, and were on the left, were irritated by how these issues were handled in popular media and in games like D&D

I think some of the problem with a culture war was evident when 4E came out. There was a significant part of WotC advertising that was anti-old school and mocked long term players of the game. While I bought the 4E books to give the system a chance (WotC failed), I was still irritated that the sales weasels were making fun of people who liked 3.x and earlier versions when it was they who had kept the brand afloat (at that time, I had about $3000 total in 3.x books and minis). So the attitude was there.

I do agree that it was during Trump's first term that the hostility was turned up to 11.

Quote from: Valatar on December 05, 2024, 06:36:10 PMUntil then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product.  NOW I am boycotting the company.  Those are two different things.

I was completely underwhelmed by their lack of quality and a bad habit of writing filler material.  Then I was boycotting because they hated me.  Then, the combination of the two things became such a trend that I don't even consider them at all. Kind of the same way that I don't go to a movie theater anymore, even for the rare movies that I might actually enjoy--if I could be bothered to pay attention long enough to determine that. 

To reverse that, they'd have to fire everyone there currently, hire a good team, produce good material for some time--and then later I might come back. Though they aren't as far gone as the film industry. It's highly unlikely I'll ever buy a movie ticket again.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 05, 2024, 08:08:47 PM

Quote from: Bedrockbrendan on December 05, 2024, 06:48:35 PM

Quote from: Valatar on December 05, 2024, 06:36:10 PM

Quote from: Mistwell on December 02, 2024, 11:23:06 PMHow are ANY of you guys who have been boycotting WOTC for over a decade their "customer base?" Guy above just said he hasn't bought anything in nearly a quarter century from them, and y'all insist you're their "customer base" being insulted here when WOTC says they don't listen to you guys? You took yourself out of the game. You declared yourself not a customer. Of course they don't listen to you: you're NOT THEIR CUSTOMERS. And you sometimes claim you should be won back but we all know that's not happening because you've built part of your core identity around being old school and not down with WOTC.

While I do get your point, I don't think most of the people here are as dyed in the wool as you're assuming.  If they eased off the weird racial stuff and a sixth edition came out that was the best game ever, a breathtaking celebration of the dungeon crawl, I am pretty sure most of the users on this site would be buying it.  By and large, people bailed on 4e because they disliked it, not from any beef with the company as a whole.  Then 5e came out and again, I didn't buy it because I looked it over and felt the PHB classes were bland, not due to Wizards being a bunch of dickbags.  It wasn't until we started getting into Trump's first term that Wizards started veering into the culture war and actively pissing people off.  Until then, I wasn't boycotting the game or the company, they just failed to sell me their product.  NOW I am boycotting the company.  Those are two different things.

It is also worth keeping in mind the culture war stuff isn't always this binary thing in terms of pissing people off. Plenty of people who didn't vote for Trump, and were on the left, were irritated by how these issues were handled in popular media and in games like D&D

I think some of the problem with a culture war was evident when 4E came out. There was a significant part of WotC advertising that was anti-old school and mocked long term players of the game. While I bought the 4E books to give the system a chance (WotC failed), I was still irritated that the sales weasels were making fun of people who liked 3.x and earlier versions when it was they who had kept the brand afloat (at that time, I had about $3000 total in 3.x books and minis). So the attitude was there.

I do agree that it was during Trump's first term that the hostility was turned up to 11.

I need to correct you for here as some one who was on the inside. That arrogant attitude that presaged and continued through the launch of 4E was 100% the fault of the D&D brand management team, and to a lesser the extent the marketing team (who were always just given marching orders). The sales dept. fought tooth and nail against this rebrand strategy that was brand driven.

I burned the majority of my personal goodwill I had built up for almost a decade to prevent the worst excesses that the brand management team tried to implement. I'm one of maybe a dozen people that made Essentials happen to try to stave off the inevitable utter crash of the game until 5E could save the brand. Unfortunately the delay between a decision being made and the product being released was 18 months. We knew, by early summer 2009 that 4E was an utter disaster.       

1

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on December 05, 2024, 08:54:24 PMTo reverse that, they'd have to fire everyone there currently, hire a good team, produce good material for some time--and then later I might come back. Though they aren't as far gone as the film industry. It's highly unlikely I'll ever buy a movie ticket again.

Well yes, I don't think it would be likely or easy for Wizards to successfully draw back in the departed fanbase.  As long as their current staff is in place it will never happen.  But it isn't impossible.  If a new owner came in and cleaned house and course-corrected the game back into being hardened adventurers in peril instead of working the late shift at a Baldur's Gate Starbucks, they could reclaim the disenfranchised fans.

Quote from: M2A0 on December 05, 2024, 11:25:50 PMI need to correct you for here as some one who was on the inside. That arrogant attitude that presaged and continued through the launch of 4E was 100% the fault of the D&D brand management team, and to a lesser the extent the marketing team (who were always just given marching orders). The sales dept. fought tooth and nail against this rebrand strategy that was brand driven.

  So, where did that come from? My suspicions are:

• The positive reaction to 3E initially, combined with the growing gripes about the system (especially online), made the design team feel that the D&D audience was more receptive to change than it actually was.
• A desire to make D&D even more 'its own thing' in terms of concept, artistic style, etc.

QuoteI burned the majority of my personal goodwill I had built up for almost a decade to prevent the worst excesses that the brand management team tried to implement. I'm one of maybe a dozen people that made Essentials happen to try to stave off the inevitable utter crash of the game until 5E could save the brand. Unfortunately the delay between a decision being made and the product being released was 18 months. We knew, by early summer 2009 that 4E was an utter disaster.       

   What were the major indicators and causes of this, in your view? The opening adventures being poorly received and the incredible dryness of many of the first supplements seem to be contributors, as well as postponing old favorites in favor of the hot new stuff.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer on December 06, 2024, 08:31:05 AM

Quote from: M2A0 on December 05, 2024, 11:25:50 PMI need to correct you for here as some one who was on the inside. That arrogant attitude that presaged and continued through the launch of 4E was 100% the fault of the D&D brand management team, and to a lesser the extent the marketing team (who were always just given marching orders). The sales dept. fought tooth and nail against this rebrand strategy that was brand driven.

  So, where did that come from? My suspicions are:

• The positive reaction to 3E initially, combined with the growing gripes about the system (especially online), made the design team feel that the D&D audience was more receptive to change than it actually was.
• A desire to make D&D even more 'its own thing' in terms of concept, artistic style, etc.

QuoteI burned the majority of my personal goodwill I had built up for almost a decade to prevent the worst excesses that the brand management team tried to implement. I'm one of maybe a dozen people that made Essentials happen to try to stave off the inevitable utter crash of the game until 5E could save the brand. Unfortunately the delay between a decision being made and the product being released was 18 months. We knew, by early summer 2009 that 4E was an utter disaster.       

   What were the major indicators and causes of this, in your view? The opening adventures being poorly received and the incredible dryness of many of the first supplements seem to be contributors, as well as postponing old favorites in favor of the hot new stuff.

I'm curious as well.

Quote from: jeff37923 on December 05, 2024, 08:08:47 PMI think some of the problem with a culture war was evident when 4E came out. There was a significant part of WotC advertising that was anti-old school and mocked long term players of the game.

It (4e marketing pissing on old editions) wasn't related to the Culture War. They spent as much or more time mocking 3e as mocking pre-3e. James Wyatt's "D&D is about killing horrible monsters! Not traipsing through Fairy Rings talking with the Little People!" would get him a round of applause from the Babylon Bee these days.

The Culture War itself was barely a thing in 2008. The Left had been pissing on the Right since around 1990, but the Right never fought back. I remember how surprised I was the first time I ever saw a Right-wing pundit, Ann Coulter, actually being mean to the Left. That would have been I think in the 2008 election campaign. Nowadays the Culture War is actually a war, but until the Left overstepped with Transmania, it was more of a Culture Holodomor.

Quote from: S'mon on December 06, 2024, 09:23:59 AMIt (4e marketing pissing on old editions) wasn't related to the Culture War. They spent as much or more time mocking 3e as mocking pre-3e. James Wyatt's "D&D is about killing horrible monsters! Not traipsing through Fairy Rings talking with the Little People!" would get him a round of applause from the Babylon Bee these days.

   I've seen WotC manage three full edition changes, and two things were more or less constant:

• The previous edition is always mocked and derided.
• The 'golden age' of Gygaxian AD&D is held up as the ideal.

   Now, the changeover to 5E24 wasn't admitted to be an edition change, which accounts for the first not happening, and it seems that the cultural changeover since 2014 has removed the second from the equation as well.