Quote from: Spinachcat on February 10, 2021, 08:03:55 PM
I see a D&D TV series / streaming series happening before a major movie.

And Hasbro will ride D&D corpse into the earth long before selling it off.

The movie is already in production, isn't it? Or did the coof delay it?

Hasbro is not going to sell the D&D IP.

Never ever.

Quote from: Mistwell on February 10, 2021, 10:46:39 AM
...
Hasbro isn't going to sell D&D and the "fad" might not fad. Instead, the plan (which looks possible right now) is to come out with the movie and leap the next step. Not as strongly as Marvel comics did, but unquestionably Marvel comics went from "fad" in terms of comics to "pop culture icon permanently" in a matter of a few years once the movies started to come out. D&D won't succeed that well, but it definitely can take the next leap into pop cultural acceptance rather than simply fade back as a trend that ebbs.

5e sales have been outstanding – and I think you rightly guess that its success has prompted Hasbro to try and "Take the next step" for the IP and grow it into a brand like the transformers franchise that can bring in big $$ independent of toy/game sales. 

Just look at Marvel as a good example. The Marvel print Comics division is shit. Perpetual declining sales numbers, annually laid off staff, with no upswing in sight.

But the Marvel IP/Brand is riding high! No one at Disney corporate seems to be overly concerned about the print comics side of things.

When they are making Billions off of the hit Marvel Films, why would they be?

For D&D as a Brand, the ideal would be to not have to rely on RPG sales to be profitable.

If Hasbro is able to take the D&D brand IP to the next level, they may not actually care overmuch how woke WOCT goes with the D&D RPG.

After all if they are otherwise making tens of millions more off the D&D brand in Movies and other assorted IP marketing, next time WOTC screws the D&D edition pooch it gives corporate the excuse to downsize things further and basically run the D&D RPG side with a skeleton crew.

i.e. I saw the D&D 'Essential Kit' for 19.95 at target the other day. Essentials only goes to level 6 – so it is basically crippleware as a game. (which is the whole point – they want you to go on to buy the big core books.)

But it would not take much more page count to have a 1-20 level evergreen "D&D" game on big-box store shelves in a box for $19.95...

If Hasbro can manage to turn the current high D&D is on into a pop culture staple, then there are far more profitable things that they can do with the IP in terms of ROI than go through the trouble of paying for a bunch of people to support and churn out a hardcover print RPG line.

It really does remain to be seen whether the D&D brand really can be leveraged beyond tabletop role-playing games.

So far there has been little success in that regard.

Quote from: TJS on February 11, 2021, 03:25:42 AM
It really does remain to be seen whether the D&D brand really can be leveraged beyond tabletop role-playing games.

So far there has been little success in that regard.

That is true. D&D is more challenging than transformers and especially Marvel were to translate to the big screen.

No history of fan favorite iconic characters. And no backlog of storylines of those characters to mine for movie and tv plot ideas.

Yes there are some D&D novels and modules that have gained a degree of popularity within the D&D fan base, but for some reason when it comes to D&D movies the powers that be seem to want to make things all new - but that probably has had a lot to do with the movie rights situation D&D has been in.

Totally unironically I think D&D movie would be best made in 3d animation like more mature pixar version

It's also worth remembering that once a Corporation gets to Hasbro's size, they become increasingly unmoored from actual sales as their primary source of income.  Increasingly the primary source of income for Corporations is the imaginary universe of stock valuations and venture capital.   In short, you cease to be the customer.  The customer is the Shareholders.  Not you.

Quote from: Torque2100 on February 11, 2021, 10:23:05 AM
It's also worth remembering that once a Corporation gets to Hasbro's size, they become increasingly unmoored from actual sales as their primary source of income.  Increasingly the primary source of income for Corporations is the imaginary universe of stock valuations and venture capital.   In short, you cease to be the customer.  The customer is the Shareholders.  Not you.

And shareholders today are overwhelmingly financial institutions. The implications are left as an exercise for the reader.

Quote from: RandyB on February 11, 2021, 11:00:05 AM
And shareholders today are overwhelmingly financial institutions. The implications are left as an exercise for the reader.

I can sum up the implications for you.

D&D is currently worth umpteen bajillion critical theory evaluation points and 359,403 Twitter followers.

If that sounds like a nonsense value to you then you're wiser than 75% of the entities currently invested on Wall Street.

* * * *

More seriously, it means that our entire financial system and concepts of value are so screwed up in the present that you can't even predict what a dollar will be worth a year from now, much less the value of an company division where 99% of its value is almost entirely conceptual and based on enough people being willing to pay money for legal access to the conceptual items. Throw away the rule of law and all that IP may as well be soap bubbles in terms of value.

Frankly, the entire entertainment industry is basically a mobius tube of madness trying to sort out how to handle IP in an age when its easier to pirate than to seriously protect anything. There are days where I think Kickstarter and all the gimmick dice and such in modern RPGs are just to make it harder for someone to digitally pirate a playable version of the game before the content producers at least get SOME money out of the product themselves.

There are also days when I think content producers who put up a Patreon or similar account and just give exclusive access for X days to every new bit of content while raking in $5/month from 100 or so fans are the geniuses because $500 a month is probably way more than I'd get if I actually published my book wholesale, when I could release a race, a class and a new set of monsters every week and make 5-10x as much with Patreons getting it a month ahead (and a few things would just be exclusive).

* * * *

So to sum up my sorta summary; don't go producing stuff for RPGs (or anything creative) right now if you're actually interested in making money for it. The only reason to produce right now is because you actually LOVE what you're producing.

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 11, 2021, 06:45:23 AM
Totally unironically I think D&D movie would be best made in 3d animation like more mature pixar version

Agreed. However, in the West (unlike Japan, for instance) animations are still seen by and large as "kids' stuff" for the most part and thus do not reach an audience as broad as a live-action movie.

Quote from: Greywolf76 on February 11, 2021, 11:44:03 AM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 11, 2021, 06:45:23 AM
Totally unironically I think D&D movie would be best made in 3d animation like more mature pixar version

Agreed. However, in the West (unlike Japan, for instance) animations are still seen by and large as "kids' stuff" for the most part and thus do not reach an audience as broad as a live-action movie.

laughs in Pixar

Quote from: Jaeger on February 11, 2021, 04:50:36 AM

Quote from: TJS on February 11, 2021, 03:25:42 AM
It really does remain to be seen whether the D&D brand really can be leveraged beyond tabletop role-playing games.

So far there has been little success in that regard.

That is true. D&D is more challenging than transformers and especially Marvel were to translate to the big screen.

No history of fan favorite iconic characters. And no backlog of storylines of those characters to mine for movie and tv plot ideas.

Yes there are some D&D novels and modules that have gained a degree of popularity within the D&D fan base, but for some reason when it comes to D&D movies the powers that be seem to want to make things all new - but that probably has had a lot to do with the movie rights situation D&D has been in.

The appeal of D&D has always been about having your own adventures... rather than watching somebody else's adventures and wishing you could be them.

There are loads of video games and cartoons that take obvious cues from D&D without using the trademark. Dragon Quest, Tower of Druaga, That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime, World of WarCraft, Slayers, Record of Lodoss War, etc. To say nothing of the many amateur productions like Standard Action, JourneyQuest, One Hit Die, 1 For All, and Dark Dungeons.

There is a huge market for D&D-themed video games and cartoons that Hasbro has simply failed to tap into. In fact, I'm sure that Hasbro could simply license a bunch of existing productions and re-release them under the official D&D brand. Disney did something like that with those licensed Alien short films.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 10, 2021, 12:34:06 PM

Quote from: Greywolf76 on February 10, 2021, 10:26:31 AM
But now? I don't think I'd ever play it again. As you said, it's too rooted into the 90s zeitgeist, which has no appeal whatsoever to me.

I've gotten pretty good non-90's zeitgeist mileage out of my V20 campaign by reframing everything in explicitly Catholic themes.

[...]

The result largely throws out the dated Punk aspects in favor of a greater focus on the more timeless themes of Gothic literature.

Very interesting stuff, Chris. That friend of mine I mentioned also used Christian themes in his Changeling campaign (which I don't think it would work with Werewolf, because that game has a very particular worldview). And it was great.

As for my Werewolf campaigns I excised all of the punk, nihilistic and tree-hugging aspects of the game. It was pretty much heroic urban "superversive" fantasy. And my players loved.   

Quote from: RandyB on February 11, 2021, 01:25:59 PM

Quote from: Greywolf76 on February 11, 2021, 11:44:03 AM

Quote from: Wicked Woodpecker of West on February 11, 2021, 06:45:23 AM
Totally unironically I think D&D movie would be best made in 3d animation like more mature pixar version

Agreed. However, in the West (unlike Japan, for instance) animations are still seen by and large as "kids' stuff" for the most part and thus do not reach an audience as broad as a live-action movie.

laughs in Pixar

Point taken, but Pixar is its own thing and it makes "family friendly" movies. Sure, many Pixar movies have adult themes (Up and Soul come to mind), but they're still kid friendly and even small children can - and do - enjoy it. 

I was thinking about animated movies and series directed specifically at a mature audience. Stuff like "Tokyo Ghul", "Bubblegun Crisis", "Akira", "Ghost in the Shell", "Goblin Slayer", "Vinland Saga", "Parasite", "Attack on Titan", and so on. Things that are too mature and or violent for kids.

I can remember from the top of my mind very few western animated movies aimed that adults that have been as successful as some of the examples above.  Ralph Bakshi's Wizards was one of those.

But Titan AE was a flop, as were some attempts by Disney to produce stuff to older kids (Treasure Island, for instance, which had Mike Mignola as one of its designers).

Direct to video DC Animated movies are great and very successful, but they are aimed at a a niche market.

Unfortunately the stigma that "animation is only for kids" is all very real, to the point that "adult animation" has become either anti-establishment (Rick & Morty, South Park) or over-the-top violent, with very few exceptions.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on February 11, 2021, 01:51:39 PM

Quote from: Jaeger on February 11, 2021, 04:50:36 AM

Quote from: TJS on February 11, 2021, 03:25:42 AM
It really does remain to be seen whether the D&D brand really can be leveraged beyond tabletop role-playing games.

So far there has been little success in that regard.

That is true. D&D is more challenging than transformers and especially Marvel were to translate to the big screen.

No history of fan favorite iconic characters. And no backlog of storylines of those characters to mine for movie and tv plot ideas.

Yes there are some D&D novels and modules that have gained a degree of popularity within the D&D fan base, but for some reason when it comes to D&D movies the powers that be seem to want to make things all new - but that probably has had a lot to do with the movie rights situation D&D has been in.

The appeal of D&D has always been about having your own adventures... rather than watching somebody else's adventures and wishing you could be them.

There are loads of video games and cartoons that take obvious cues from D&D without using the trademark. Dragon Quest, Tower of Druaga, That Time I Got Reincarnated as a Slime, World of WarCraft, Slayers, Record of Lodoss War, etc. To say nothing of the many amateur productions like Standard Action, JourneyQuest, One Hit Die, 1 For All, and Dark Dungeons.

All of which do just fine without the D&D brand on them.

This is the issue.  Does actually owning the D&D brand, even if it is the inspiration for this, really convery much additional value here?

You obviously don't need the D&D brand to make a successful fantasy computer rpg franchise (and there may even be some advantages in not having it).  Even in the case of Baldur's Gate 3 it seems that the makers are relying on the memory of two 20 year old games that were well received rather than simply the D&D brand.

QuoteAgreed. However, in the West (unlike Japan, for instance) animations are still seen by and large as "kids' stuff" for the most part and thus do not reach an audience as broad as a live-action movie.

Chances for good D&D blockbuster movie for adults are... non-existent. I mean there is not even good material for it really - D&D worlds are bloody kitchen sinks for kitchen sinkey RPG, they lack focus even those more themed one, and nature of D&D campaigns are unfilmable. In Animation you'd at least avoid bad special effects.

QuoteAs for my Werewolf campaigns I excised all of the punk, nihilistic and tree-hugging aspects of the game. It was pretty much heroic urban "superversive" fantasy. And my players loved.   

I mean aside of drama queens wasn't Werewolf practically in 88% of campaigns played as heroic werewolves vs bad corporation poisoning crops of normie people?

Quote from: Spinachcat on February 10, 2021, 08:03:55 PM
I see a D&D TV series / streaming series happening before a major movie.

And Hasbro will ride D&D corpse into the earth long before selling it off.

Well prepare to be wrong I guess.

You...realize it's already in production and cast, right?

Lead Actors already cast: Chris Pine (Star Trek, Wonder Woman) Michelle Rodriguez (Fast & Furious, Avatar), Justice Smith (Jurassic World).

Direct and Written by John Francis Daley (from all the way back in Freaks and Geeks though better known these days for directing Game Night) and Jonathan Goldstein (Spiderman: Homecoming and also the co-director on Game Night). Derek Kolstad is also a lead writer (all the John Wick movies).

So, most of this is major blockbuster territory stuff. Star Trek, Wonder Woman, Fast & Furious, Avatar, Jurassic, Spiderman, John Wick.

It's set to release in 2022. Which should mean in actual movie theaters with pent up demand for movies.

We'll see how it does, but looks like it will be released as a major movie.