Quote from: Christopher Brady;1081800Amber in this case relies entirely on GM whim on how the 'story' of the game should go, if you have it's Meta currency, like Good Stuff or Bad Stuff, Trumps or the like, those also help influence the GM's decisions, also, the game allows for player input to change the direction of the 'story' with discussion with the GM (all games with meta currencies, like FATE or Mutants and Masterminds, require the player to discuss it with the GM and that the GM is to keep an open mind, but Veto powers rest in the hands of the arbitrator should a suggestion go counter to what the GM has planned), and the idea of structuring the game LIKE a story is key throughout the book.  You don't spend anything because there are no real mechanics of that sort.

No it doesn't. You are continuing to lie. Repeating over and over again what has been repeatedly disproven. None of the things you named (luck, trumps) are "meta", they are all DIRECTLY PART OF THE WORLD. There is not meta-activities.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1081812I want to hear Pundit's counter point because as I said I had not read the book.  In fact we need a neutral judge who has read the book to make a honest verdict.

The counterpoint is that Brady IS DIRECTLY AND OPENLY LYING.

If he's claiming Stuff and Trumps are "meta-mechanics" it would be like me claiming Constitution or Wands of Magic Missile are "meta-mechanics" in D&D. It's that egregious a lie.

"stuff" is an ability score.

"Trumps" are literally a magic item in the game world.


He's just relying on the ignorance of readers to REPEATEDLY LIE.

And I'm fucking done with it. Brady: One more lie about Amber on this thread or any other and you're banned.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081821Good and Bad Stuff, however, is pretty much straight up a metacurrency where you're buying or selling luck in the game explicitly to detail how the universe is going to treat you for story purposes. The example even given in the book shows a guy with Good stuff catching arrows out of the air with a grin because he's the "hero" and the universe likes him. Whereas the poor sod with Bad Stuff... every arrow that can hit him does. There's another line that basically says if the GM can't decide who something untoward should happen to, or if there's some element of chance, it always resolves against the person with Bad Stuff.

Sorry, but is Charisma a "metacurrency" in D&D? Or is it an ability score that can affect how people in the game world see you? Is "Luck" a metacurrency in Dungeon Crawl Classics?

NO.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1082604Sorry, but is Charisma a "metacurrency" in D&D? Or is it an ability score that can affect how people in the game world see you? Is "Luck" a metacurrency in Dungeon Crawl Classics?

NO.

I used to play Fighting Fantasy with Skill-Stamina-Luck. Who knew I was playing a Storygame. :eek:

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081905Would it be fair to say there is such a thing as "Classic" RPGs and "Storygame" RPGs that are both subcategories of RPG?

No, it wouldn't. There's RPGs, and then there's storygames which are not a subcategory of RPG, they're a derived separate game.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1081934There is no such thing as a 'story game', it is a derogatory term used to slander games that Pundit does not like.  That is it, that is all.

Lying again. I didn't invent the term story game. And a large number of storygamers actively use the term and proudly have it differentiate them from the D&D games the unwashed masses they so hate are playing.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1082602And I'm fucking done with it. Brady: One more lie about Amber on this thread or any other and you're banned.

As you wish, your site your rules.  This is my acknowledgement that I have seen this.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1082604Sorry, but is Charisma a "metacurrency" in D&D? Or is it an ability score that can affect how people in the game world see you? Is "Luck" a metacurrency in Dungeon Crawl Classics?

NO.

Charisma also doesn't control how the universe objectively feels about you (as in the cold, uncaring things out there that aren't affected by force of personality). Stuff does. Is your assertion that metagame mechanics cannot also be a part of the setting? Because, if so, I'm not sure I see where there's a clear line on that.

What would you draw as that line and do you have an example of what is on one side of that line and what is on the other? (Preferably from an actual game.) What are you defining as a metacurrency here? That may help my understanding.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1082610No, it wouldn't. There's RPGs, and then there's storygames which are not a subcategory of RPG, they're a derived separate game.

So what's the super-category then and why is an RPG different than a storygame? I've had other people's perspectives on it in this thread, but not yours so far.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1082625Charisma also doesn't control how the universe objectively feels about you (as in the cold, uncaring things out there that aren't affected by force of personality).

The conceit of the setting is that it does.
But regardless, stuff doesn't actually allow a player to change the universe or to treat the world as a story they can edit or add to. In fact, they have no control whatsoever over what stuff does or doesn't do for them.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1082626So what's the super-category then and why is an RPG different than a storygame? I've had other people's perspectives on it in this thread, but not yours so far.

There is no 'supercategory', except maybe if you mean something like "game genres that in some way derived from Little Wars".

An RPG is different from a storygame, in brief, in that an RPG creates a virtual worlds and players try to immerse themselves in playing characters in that virtual living world; while a story game is meant to tell a story and players take the roles of co-authors trying to craft a story out of a setting and characters that are non-living literary backdrops for the story to happen in and with.

If RPGs create anything, it's History. Storygames create a kind of literature. Mostly badly, in my opinion, but some storygamers seem to like that... though I think mostly they like the sense of smugness they get being fans of those games.

One commonality - storygames can involve play-acting, and RPGs can involve play-acting. Only the latter normally involve you-are-there immersion though.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1082905There is no 'supercategory', except maybe if you mean something like "game genres that in some way derived from Little Wars".

An RPG is different from a storygame, in brief, in that an RPG creates a virtual worlds and players try to immerse themselves in playing characters in that virtual living world; while a story game is meant to tell a story and players take the roles of co-authors trying to craft a story out of a setting and characters that are non-living literary backdrops for the story to happen in and with.

If RPGs create anything, it's History. Storygames create a kind of literature. Mostly badly, in my opinion, but some storygamers seem to like that... though I think mostly they like the sense of smugness they get being fans of those games.

By your own definition most every RPG you say isn't actually is.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1082904The conceit of the setting is that it does.

...wait, how so for Charisma? What setting are we talking about? Stuff does this in Amber, but Charisma doesn't in D&D.

QuoteBut regardless, stuff doesn't actually allow a player to change the universe or to treat the world as a story they can edit or add to. In fact, they have no control whatsoever over what stuff does or doesn't do for them.

OK. That helps a bit see what you're driving at. Yes, they have no control over whether or not the Stuff actually helps or hinders them. It is up to the GM. However, the guidance provided to the GM is that the luck should almost always come up in favor of the character with good stuff. That seems about as metatextrual as, say, Action Points or Bennies for a re-roll or burning Fate in a Warhammer RPG (including pre-Wrath & Glory 40K): you're explicitly changing the setting. The GM may have to arbitrate the how, but the player is making a definite statement of: "This changes things."

That's where I'm still grasping at what's the line, but your next post has some more to chew on for that.