Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081824OK. So I don't think that fits under Snowman's definition. Or at least I'm not sure without much deeper understanding of the rules. However... yeah, watching that video, that's a really, really solid game to point to as "this is a storygame" if you want to hold up an illustration. Looks interesting, but definitely not what you'd normally think of when you think of an RPG. Yet also clearly not a boardgame or a wargame.

Doesn't sound like there's an arbitrator/judge/GM at all.

That's pretty darned helpful.

I'm not 100% sold it isn't an RPG, but it at least gives a great point of comparison.

Part of the issue is that there are plenty of uncontroversial RPGs that use bits of storygame mechanics / concepts / ethos. Since there's a spectrum, it's fucking dumb to try and be divisive about it - celebrate the spectrum. (I see the same discussion over OSR vs 5e, I don't have a problem with celebrating both).

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081821True, but not really different than almost any other RPG out there. So no different than a DM in D&D.

In D&D, you're SUPPOSED to use the dice to help adjudicate, even if it doesn't entirely work out for the DM.  Most other dice based games are also the same.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081821Good Stuff and Bad Stuff operate more like a metacurrency, but Trumps does not. Trumps are a "magic power," more analogous to spellcasting in D&D. They help influence the GM's decision only because they offer you a greater toolset to work with, like how the spell Knock gives you a greater ability to work with locked doors in a dungeon.

Trumps, like magic spells can screw with the GM's 'story'.  But I'll grant you that.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081821Good and Bad Stuff, however, is pretty much straight up a metacurrency where you're buying or selling luck in the game explicitly to detail how the universe is going to treat you for story purposes. The example even given in the book shows a guy with Good stuff catching arrows out of the air with a grin because he's the "hero" and the universe likes him. Whereas the poor sod with Bad Stuff... every arrow that can hit him does. There's another line that basically says if the GM can't decide who something untoward should happen to, or if there's some element of chance, it always resolves against the person with Bad Stuff.

Yes, but those things allow players to go against the GM's plans.  Like a Fate, Bennie or Hero point.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081821True...ish. The book does encourage the GM to work with the players to see where the plot is going, but also encourages the GM to be a straight up bastard to keep the plot in genre. It is driven by Amber's storytelling style of a noir high fantasy mystery thriller.

Good players also work within the setting, so this is a moot argument to me.

Sounds like a hybrid to me.

Proto-hybrid, maybe? (Given its age.)

I think I rather agree with Motorskills though, and the other posters who have said this is a spectrum and seems, to me, to be a meaningless divide. I now understand a bit better some of the distinctions going on here, but still fail to see a meaningful difference to what is-or-is-not an RPG. But maybe that has to be answered by first answering, "What is an RPG?" by those who do not want storygames included.

No motor is wrong.  I for one would like to know what I am buying.  Having categories such as traditional rpg and story game will help inform me where I am going.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1081891No motor is wrong.  I for one would like to know what I am buying.  Having categories such as traditional rpg and story game will help inform me where I am going.

Exactly. And as allways there are some who want to blur or destroy the definition as a marketing ploy. GW did it way back now and then. Space Hulk. Others have been doing it more recently. And then there are just the idiots who want to stretch the definition to "everything on earth". And theres at least one, usually several in any given genre or fandom. Hell theres even some in the OSR. If they havent allready they will sooner or later declare 4e D&D is OSR! Didnt you know? FFGs Star Wars is OSR! And an allready meaningless term becomes even more useless.

So what is an RPG?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1081891I for one would like to know what I am buying.  Having categories such as traditional rpg and story game will help inform me where I am going.

So you're mad you have to do your own research? If not... what's the issue?

What is a "Traditional RPG" ? Pick a version of D&D to point to as the counter-example of the storygame example now and then we can look at and see why, if at all, those differences matter.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081877Proto-hybrid, maybe? (Given its age.)

I think I rather agree with Motorskills though, and the other posters who have said this is a spectrum and seems, to me, to be a meaningless divide. I now understand a bit better some of the distinctions going on here, but still fail to see a meaningful difference to what is-or-is-not an RPG. But maybe that has to be answered by first answering, "What is an RPG?" by those who do not want storygames included.

Yes, he is correct and the gatekeepers here can't stand that.

Quote from: Omega;1081895And then there are just the idiots who want to stretch the definition to "everything on earth".

You keep claiming this, but under any measure anyone has put forth on the thread so far (for games), there are limits to what is an RPG and what is not. And they've been meaningful limits. But, thus far, none of those limits have excluded storygames.

Again: this seems like you're mad at a marketing gimmick. Which is... really odd.

Quote from: Brendan;1080121So you accept that there are such things as "story-games" distinct from "classical RPGs" - that they are distinguishable and have different design parameters, you are just concerned that people are trashing story games or attempting to exclude them from the RPG hobby as a whole?

No, I do not.

Here’s the definition of a Role-Playing Game:

“role-play·ing game

noun

a game in which players take on the roles of imaginary characters who engage in adventures, typically in a particular computerized fantasy setting overseen by a referee.”

So...as has been stated time and again...a game...in which you play a role...role...playing...game. D&D is one....as is Amber...SWN...FFG Star Wars...TORG...Apocalypse World...Blades in the Dark...Champions...Dusk City Outlaws...Ryuutama...Eoris Essence...and so on...

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081896So what is an RPG?



So you're mad you have to do your own research? If not... what's the issue?

What is a "Traditional RPG" ? Pick a version of D&D to point to as the counter-example of the storygame example now and then we can look at and see why, if at all, those differences matter.

See this is why I cannot take you seriously.  You just keep on being on being a passive agressive little bitch with your petty little insults.

The categories work as they had always done for other media.  I mean you wouldn't want to be the Dad who accidentally rented a porn movie for his family to watch because asshats decided all movies are a spectrum and we need no division at all.  Who are we to gatekeep with these age ratings?  Lets toss them and if the customers fail to do their research its on them.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1081902See this is why I cannot take you seriously.  You just keep on being on being a passive agressive little bitch with your petty little insults.

That wasn't passive aggressive. That was restating what I read and asking for clarification. Stop trying to be offended and converse instead. (And in case this is difficult for you: that last sentence was not passive aggressive; that was active assertive.)

QuoteThe categories work as they had always done for other media.  I mean you wouldn't want to be the Dad who accidentally rented a porn movie for his family to watch because asshats decided all movies are a spectrum and we need no division at all.  Who are we to gatekeep with these age ratings?  Lets toss them and if the customers fail to do their research its on them.

Having done that for my wife and I, I can tell you exactly what happened with the miscategorization there. Let's just say that the movie that presented itself as "A Fun Romp About An Occult Priest Who Messes with These Protagonist Girls!" (The show in question was Bible Black, and nothing on that box in that store indicated what it actually was.)

And I don't think "RPG" has been a category in all other media.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;1081901No, I do not.

Here's the definition of a Role-Playing Game:

"role-play·ing game

noun

a game in which players take on the roles of imaginary characters who engage in adventures, typically in a particular computerized fantasy setting overseen by a referee."

So...as has been stated time and again...a game...in which you play a role...role...playing...game. D&D is one....as is Amber...SWN...FFG Star Wars...TORG...Apocalypse World...Blades in the Dark...Champions...Dusk City Outlaws...Ryuutama...Eoris Essence...and so on...

Would it be fair to say there is such a thing as "Classic" RPGs and "Storygame" RPGs that are both subcategories of RPG?

Quote from: Snowman0147;1081891No motor is wrong.  I for one would like to know what I am buying.  Having categories such as traditional rpg and story game will help inform me where I am going.

While I think there value in having general tools to distinguish between the various mechanics and ethos, trying to say that this game here is an RPG, this game there is not, is pretty much doomed to failure. I don't think you are ever going to be fully happy, because it is a spectrum, with hybrids and continuing evolution.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1081796OK...

So I'm trying to think of something to fit these criteria and give a concrete example. Mutants & Masterminds? There's a heavy reliance on the Hero Points (not required, but there is a heavy reliance to do things to alternatively adjust the scenario; and if you go with "would not have the same genre/feel without them" as being required, then they would be required) as a metacurrency. You can only use them to do things that are truly heroic / befitting the story. You get them for playing well, which gives the enemy more to work with also.

Does that put Mutants & Masterminds into the storygame category, or am I missing something? In which case, is there a better example you're thinking of?

While Hero Points are a form of metagaming*. The focus of the authors of Mutants & Mastermind is still on supporting campaigns where players pretend to be superhero within a setting vaguely related to the present or a few decades ago. That aside from Hero Points the players can't do anything other than what their character can do.

So Mutant and Masterminds is a tabletop roleplaying game. Not a wargame focused on battling super heroes with the goal of defeating your fellow players or cooperating to achieve some type of victory condition that ends the game. Or a story game focused on collaboratively creating a narrative about a group of super heroes.

A group could use Mutants & Masterminds to do any of the above. They would need to add anything missing they needed to make a wargame campaign happen or a story game campaign happen. But the authors don't explicitly support those alternatives in the core books.