Kind of like luck points in some other games or I think how Probability points worked in TORG.

In 1st ed it sounds fairly simple. One free save. But did not save you from any followup hazards. If there were oodles of the points or they had the longer lasting effect of later editions Id probably not be too thrilled as a player or DM. But even with a longer lasting effect, if its just one use then seems more or less ok. For me at least it is when these points become plentiful or have wider impacts that it starts to feel a little dodgy.

I was ok with it in MSH because it fit the setting, and Karma also acted as EXP. So the more you burned the slower the character would advance/improve. Most players seemed more keen on saving them than spending.

On a related, slightly tongue-in-cheek note: Is Champions a storygame, since it allows people to spend Character Points to define things outside the character and even the frequency with which they effect the character (Hunteds, DNPCs, Contacts, etc.)?

Quote from: Omega;1080931In 1st ed it sounds fairly simple. One free save. But did not save you from any followup hazards. If there were oodles of the points or they had the longer lasting effect of later editions Id probably not be too thrilled as a player or DM. But even with a longer lasting effect, if its just one use then seems more or less ok. For me at least it is when these points become plentiful or have wider impacts that it starts to feel a little dodgy.

Well... the follow up hazards was unclear, to say the least. I cannot remember if Apocrypha Now clarified it or not. You could certainly extrapolate, from the text, that the intent was that it certainly would save you from anything else in that "scene" "moment" or however else you want to define it (the game certainly did not, which is where the ambiguity came in). You're removed from that danger. (For example, saving you from falling into the lava only to die from the toxic fumes was aaaaalmost an example used, and certainly one you could read in the text by adding just 2 words.)

That's where it seems like it crosses the line from "one free save" to "change the narrative to make it that I don't die."

I'll have to see if I can find my old Apocrypha Now book to see if they ever clarified it or if that was only a 2nd and following thing.

EDIT: Turns out it was closer at hand than I thought! Pg. 28 of Apocrypha Now on the "right" use of Fate Points is basically where 2nd edition and following got it from. It reads like an earlier draft of 2nd edition.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1080932On a related, slightly tongue-in-cheek note: Is Champions a storygame, since it allows people to spend Character Points to define things outside the character and even the frequency with which they effect the character (Hunteds, DNPCs, Contacts, etc.)?

That would certainly mean any old White Wolf game is a storygame. As is Anima: Beyond Fantasy, large parts of GURPS, RuneQuest, and a bunch of others.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1080932On a related, slightly tongue-in-cheek note: Is Champions a storygame, since it allows people to spend Character Points to define things outside the character and even the frequency with which they effect the character (Hunteds, DNPCs, Contacts, etc.)?

No because it done at character creation or in between sessions for advantages.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;1080932On a related, slightly tongue-in-cheek note: Is Champions a storygame, since it allows people to spend Character Points to define things outside the character and even the frequency with which they effect the character (Hunteds, DNPCs, Contacts, etc.)?

According to the current definition, yes.

Here's something, with most plot point systems, the GM ALWAYS has Veto Powers, and the right to modify what the player suggests.  The player almost never runs across roughshod over a GM's game with these point systems.

I've had a hard time convincing people here what signiciant ramifications the GM veto has for such rules.

That said, context makes a difference. If you look at Spirit of the Century/FATE, the whole way the game is set up, the message between the lines is clearly that the GM is supposed to be very lenient here and to generally not veto the players. I hope that I am conveying in my own game a very different spirit; here, the GM is the ultimate authority in ensuring genre-compliance. If a player wants the enemy to stumble over an actual invisible turtle and you don't want such comic relief disrupting the serious mood of the session, you veto it. Try again with something else next round. In fact, that is part of the challenge for the players when they need a Lucky Break: to come up with an appropriate rationale and to come up with a different, creative idea everytime they need the favor of the dark gods (aka the GM).

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1080964That said, context makes a difference . . . I hope that I am conveying in my own game a very different spirit; here, the GM is the ultimate authority in ensuring genre-compliance.

To me, that's certainly the key. The context in which each game presents itself sets a way of thinking about and running a game. I don't run D&D like I do Fireborn. They're looking for different things out of me, as the GM, even though facially they appear to be looking for the same thing. Play each game in the spirit in which it's presented if you want to judge the game on its merits and see if there was something worthwhile in it that way.

BTW - your game isn't out yet, right? I was looking on your website and it does look interesting.

Quote from: Tanin Wulf;1080972BTW - your game isn't out yet, right? I was looking on your website and it does look interesting.

The Quickstart Beta rules are in the Downloads section. They need some errata/clarifications though, I have come to realize - but that's why it's a Beta after all. Right now I am writing on the accompanying Introductory Scenario, horribly railroady in the 90s school of RPGs. But I figure for an introductory scenario it's fair game - it's like a videogame tutorial, after all. At least a bit.

Quote from: Alexander Kalinowski;1080980The Quickstart Beta rules are in the Downloads section. They need some errata/clarifications though, I have come to realize - but that's why it's a Beta after all. Right now I am writing on the accompanying Introductory Scenario, horribly railroady in the 90s school of RPGs. But I figure for an introductory scenario it's fair game - it's like a videogame tutorial, after all. At least a bit.

Actually, the key point is to make the characters the 'head of the engine'.  The problem of 90's railroad adventures is not that there's very few path to get to the end, but rather than the players were often spectators to the plot as it unfolded and resolved.

I think that a lot of the "x has this particular mechanic doesn't that make it a storygame" thing is based on assuming that you are a storygame if you have any mechanic used by storygames.

There are RPGs that have some mechanics that ended up being used in storygames, but that doesn't make them storygames. There are newer RPGs that have brought in some mechanics used in storygames, that certainly makes them storygame-influenced but it may not make them Storygames.

They're storygames if the fundamental system is a storygame system. That is, if you removed the storygame elements, the game couldn't actually be run at all without serious modification.

Quote from: RPGPundit;1081195They're storygames if the fundamental system is a storygame system. That is, if you removed the storygame elements, the game couldn't actually be run at all without serious modification.

You can't strip the story based manipulation from Amber Diceless, you do so and you kill the entire system...

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1081199You can't strip the story based manipulation from Amber Diceless, you do so and you kill the entire system...

If that is the case, then yes it is a story game.  Not saying it is because I haven't read that book so cannot make a judgement.  I am just saying IF that is true.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1081199You can't strip the story based manipulation from Amber Diceless, you do so and you kill the entire system...

You really need to stop lying about this. You were proven wrong already... no sorry, proven to be LYING about what the book said. It's time you stop. Keep trying to derail threads and we'll be having a problem.

Quote from: Snowman0147;1081201If that is the case, then yes it is a story game.  Not saying it is because I haven't read that book so cannot make a judgement.  I am just saying IF that is true.

It isn't true at all, and it was shown how he was lying about it just like, one thread ago.