Quote from: Jaeger;1076534And it gets worse. Define system progress for D&D. One players bug is another's feature!

Some players feel that having low level monsters always being a threat to PC's helps with game world verisimilitude. Others want mo-mo-mo-mo... More! monsters in their fantasy game and could care less about setting verisimilitude. It's high fantasy adventure Whoot!

I just wanted to address this quickly.  You are assuming that having low level monsters always being a threat to PCs helps with game world verisimilitude.  I disagree.  Where is the verisimilitude about having a great Hero, like Achilles or Conan or King Arthur, pulled down and punked by 100 serfs with sticks who then continue on their merry way to do the same to Smaug, the Kraken and the Tarrasque.  Remember the great story passed down through generations about the village that went out and beat Grendal to death with sheer numbers?  No, of course not because it just does not match the verisimilitude of the world.

Quote from: Shasarak;1076538I cant speak for other people but the ADnD Fighter attracting all the "Agro" from a large group of Orcs overbearing him and then the Wizard using Fireball on everyone (including the Fighter) was a thing when I played.

You can kill so many Orcs with a well placed Fireball that they just are not worth using.  Your milage of course may vary.

Then your DM must not have used item saving throws.

The entire 1E system is a series of sub-systems that check and balance various exploits of other sub-systems.  A magic-user saying "fuck it" and fireballing all the orcs because the fighter can take the HP loss is a legit tactic if you need to save your life.

But if you lose a few magic items in the process, fireballing your own people starts to not seem so great.

"But I don't like rolling all those dice!"  OK, then crowd-control fireballs for you.

Quote from: Shasarak;1076538I cant speak for other people but the ADnD Fighter attracting all the "Agro" from a large group of Orcs overbearing him and then the Wizard using Fireball on everyone (including the Fighter) was a thing when I played.

You can kill so many Orcs with a well placed Fireball that they just are not worth using.  Your milage of course may vary.

You can kill maybe 20 orcs (ca 15 xp each) with a Fireball - but orc #appearing is 30-300 plus leaders, so that hardly trivialises the encounter. Especially if you just did 8, 12 or 15d6 damage (halved for save) to the party Fighter! :eek:

Quote from: RoyR;1073149Interesting to see somebody redefining the basic concepts of RPGs so long after their inception.

From BECM, Basic rules, section on winning on page 8:
"Think a moment. Why do we play games? To have fun. Each player "wins" by having fun--so if you had a good time, you win! You can have fun even if your character gets killed -- and if that happens, don't worry. You can always make up another one!
Winning a role playing game is like "winning" in real life; it's just succeeding in doing what you wanted to do, and living through it. The fun comes from doing it, not ending it! This is why we say that in this game, everybody wins and nobody loses."

Is that not a kind of Pollyanna way of looking at it?  You cant lose, everyone wins so why are we keeping score with XP and Gold then?

I dont think that I would count having a character die as "winning" unless perhaps it was as a result of something that I deliberately did knowing the consequences.

Quote from: EOTB;1076542Then your DM must not have used item saving throws.

The entire 1E system is a series of sub-systems that check and balance various exploits of other sub-systems.  A magic-user saying "fuck it" and fireballing all the orcs because the fighter can take the HP loss is a legit tactic if you need to save your life.

But if you lose a few magic items in the process, fireballing your own people starts to not seem so great.

"But I don't like rolling all those dice!"  OK, then crowd-control fireballs for you.

It's not very helpful that the DMG or PHB never mention this. (IIRC)
I mean, do you check item saves for monster equipment when the wizard casts fireball at them and there's no PCs in the area of effect?

Quote from: Shasarak;1076540I just wanted to address this quickly.  You are assuming that having low level monsters always being a threat to PCs helps with game world verisimilitude.  I disagree.  Where is the verisimilitude about having a great Hero, like Achilles or Conan or King Arthur, pulled down and punked by 100 serfs with sticks who then continue on their merry way to do the same to Smaug, the Kraken and the Tarrasque.  Remember the great story passed down through generations about the village that went out and beat Grendal to death with sheer numbers?  No, of course not because it just does not match the verisimilitude of the world.

Typically in myth/legend/fantasy, dragon > army > hero > dragon. It's asymmetric. Albeit a sufficiently mighty European hero might be able to kills dozens or even hundreds of mooks in one battle. A lot more in eg Indian mythology. But armies usually have opposing champions as in The Iliad. In The Iliad even Ares can't defeat an army single handed; he kills a lot of Greeks before Diomedes stops him.

Edit: Conan certainly believes he can be killed by 100 serfs with sticks - read the start of Queen of the Black Coast. Heroes mostly don't die that way because they're not stupid enough to die that way, not because they're invulnerable.

Edit 2: Likewise, Grendel doesn't risk fighting an army in an open field in daylight. He comes at night to ravage the hall.

Quote from: EOTB;1076542Then your DM must not have used item saving throws.

The entire 1E system is a series of sub-systems that check and balance various exploits of other sub-systems.  A magic-user saying "fuck it" and fireballing all the orcs because the fighter can take the HP loss is a legit tactic if you need to save your life.

But if you lose a few magic items in the process, fireballing your own people starts to not seem so great.

"But I don't like rolling all those dice!"  OK, then crowd-control fireballs for you.

We always ruled that if the Fighter makes his save then you dont roll for his items.

Quote from: S'mon;1076544You can kill maybe 20 orcs (ca 15 xp each) with a Fireball - but orc #appearing is 30-300 plus leaders, so that hardly trivialises the encounter. Especially if you just did 8, 12 or 15d6 damage (halved for save) to the party Fighter! :eek:

20 Orcs with 33,000 cubic feet of Fireball?

Thats a tough DM.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;1076546It's not very helpful that the DMG or PHB never mention this. (IIRC)
I mean, do you check item saves for monster equipment when the wizard casts fireball at them and there's no PCs in the area of effect?

1E's organization is certainly like that of an old bookstore with its own cataloging system.  Full credit to that issue.

But it's there.  In fact, it's mainly discussed in the text of the fireball spell itself, and then the mechanics are outlaid on pg 80 of the DMG.  I wish how to apply it wouldn't have mainly been discussed in the fireball spell, but it's not that obscure of a spell.  (Edit - note this also applies to lightning bolt, dragon fire, or any other item save category - the process isn't different)

Edit 2 - yes, you check all the treasure/monster equipment that is meaningful.  I much prefer slow spell to fireball spell, because fireball's nickname is "Destroy Treasure Level 3".

QuoteExplanation/Description: A fireball is an explosive burst of flame, which
detonates with a low roar, and delivers damage proportionate to the level
of the magic-user who cast it, i.e. 1 six-sided die (d6) for each level of
experience of the spell caster. Exception: Magic fireball wands deliver 6
die fireballs (6d6), magic staves with this capability deliver 8 die fireballs,
and scroll spells of this type deliver a fireball of from 5 to 10 dice (d6 + 4)
of damage. The burst of the fireball does not expend a considerable
amount of pressure, and the burst will generally conform to the shape of
the area in which it occurs, thus covering an area equal to its normal
spherical volume. [The area which is covered by the fireball is a total
volume of roughly 33,000 cubic feet (or yards)]. Besides causing damage
to creatures, the fireball ignites all combustible materials within its burst
radius, and the heat of the fireball will melt soft metals such as gold,
copper, silver, etc. Items exposed to the spell's effects must be rolled for to
determine if they are affected. Items with a creature which makes its
saving throw are considered as unaffected. The magic-u,ser points his or
her finger and speaks the range (distance and height) at which the fireball
is to borst. A streak flashes from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts
upon a material body prior to attaining the prescribed range, flowers into
the fireball If creatures fail their saving throws, they all take full hit point
damage frqm the blast. Those who make saving throws manage to dodge,
fall flat or roll aside, taking '/1 the full hit point damage - each and every
one within the blast area. The material component of this spell is a tiny
ball composed of bat guano and sulphur.

Quote from: Shasarak;1076548We always ruled that if the Fighter makes his save then you dont roll for his items.

Of course.  Your chance of making the save isn't that great.  Blast away!  Sometimes you do get lucky, but if you're casting this as a tactic - you're betting against the house, not with it.

Quote from: Shasarak;107655020 Orcs with 33,000 cubic feet of Fireball?

Thats a tough DM.

What kind of formation are these orcs of yours in?!

Mind you I did once have an NPC drow wizard wipe out a PC's entire 150 man army with a single 1e fireball when he marched them down a very long 10' Underdark tunnel...

Quote from: S'mon;1076547Typically in myth/legend/fantasy, dragon > army > hero > dragon. It's asymmetric. Albeit a sufficiently mighty European hero might be able to kills dozens or even hundreds of mooks in one battle. A lot more in eg Indian mythology. But armies usually have opposing champions as in The Iliad. In The Iliad even Ares can't defeat an army single handed; he kills a lot of Greeks before Diomedes stops him.

That is the problem, by removing the asymmetry then you come down to action economy, the army has the most actions so then will always win.

QuoteEdit: Conan certainly believes he can be killed by 100 serfs with sticks - read the start of Queen of the Black Coast. Heroes mostly don't die that way because they're not stupid enough to die that way, not because they're invulnerable.

Edit 2: Likewise, Grendel doesn't risk fighting an army in an open field in daylight. He comes at night to ravage the hall.

Sure Conan may be "worried" about 100 serfs with sticks and on the other hand he never ever is defeated by them.  Likewise Grendal raids a Viking hall with impunity without any concern that he might get dog piled.

Quote from: EOTB;1076551Of course.  Your chance of making the save isn't that great.  Blast away!  Sometimes you do get lucky, but if you're casting this as a tactic - you're betting against the house, not with it.

An adventuring party taking on an army of Orcs and you are worried about the odds?  Pff, give me the die. ;0)

Quote from: S'mon;1076552What kind of formation are these orcs of yours in?!

Mind you I did once have an NPC drow wizard wipe out a PC's entire 150 man army with a single 1e fireball when he marched them down a very long 10' Underdark tunnel...

Dont even tell me about the time my character got blasted by a Lightening Bolt from the party Wizard while being engulfed by a Trapper.  I mean honestly.

Quote from: EOTB;10765511E's organization is certainly like that of an old bookstore with its own cataloging system.  Full credit to that issue.

But it's there.  In fact, it's mainly discussed in the text of the fireball spell itself, and then the mechanics are outlaid on pg 80 of the DMG.  I wish how to apply it wouldn't have mainly been discussed in the fireball spell, but it's not that obscure of a spell.  (Edit - note this also applies to lightning bolt, dragon fire, or any other item save category - the process isn't different)

Ah. I stand corrected.

QuoteEdit 2 - yes, you check all the treasure/monster equipment that is meaningful.  I much prefer slow spell to fireball spell, because fireball's nickname is "Destroy Treasure Level 3".

Now I'm starting to wonder what meaningful treasure a group of low level orcs are going to have anyway.

Orcs can have some pretty nice stuff, if one accepts modules such as Keep on the Borderlands as a calibration point.