Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1067238Do you really not see a problem with an invincible way to spam rests?

If you wanted to make it rarely used but allow it in extremis, I suppose you could add an expensive material component that got used up during the casting - powdered diamond or angel's blood or something

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1067237I have ask, are we really out to kill all the players for wanting to rest and recover in the middle of a dungeon, so that they can play some more?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1067238Do you really not see a problem with an invincible way to spam rests?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1067244No, because the average gamer is not going to abuse it that way.  Not in my experience, anyway.

First, characters Chris, characters. Killing players is a pretty extreme reaction on any board.

Secondly, if people aren't abusing it, then no one will be out to kill them over it. This becomes a non-issue in both directions. There are lots of things that are non-problematic if they are never used (yet that really isn't a successful critique of criticism of them, either, since they would be a problem if they were used).

That said, the very nature of the hut as invincible makes it such that it facilitates PC death, because the only counter to them it's use are extreme/likely lethal. Under normal circumstances (without LTH), the standard ways of getting in a Long Rest (or night's rest, if we are talking general D&D and not 5e specifically) all have soft counters -- 1) leaving the dungeon entirely to sleep in the wilderness or town requires extensive travel, might itself not be totally secure, and gives the dungeon inhabitants time to change the situation in-dungeon. 2) finding a bolt hole/empty room and posting watch runs a risk of discovery, a fight (with some party members out of armor), and the rest not being successful, 3) magic gateways like rod of security, demiplanes, planar travel, rope trick (in other editions where it might last long enough), etc. are serious magic items or spells. So, lots of costs or counters well below ultimate consequences. With LTH, the options at the DM's disposal are 1) put a huge ambush right outside the dome waiting for it to come down, 2) pile rocks on top/flood the room/other things which will probably kill the party, or 3) some creature/spell which can get through the spell (teleporters, and the like).

If the hut is merely a hut (Leomunds's Secure Shelter from other editions) there's room for measures in between. If opponents discover the shelter, they can take steps to deal with it, and the party can perform countermeasures. The all-or-nothing nature of LTH encourages party wipes.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1067237I have ask, are we really out to kill all the players for wanting to rest and recover in the middle of a dungeon, so that they can play some more?

No. No one here is so far making such a claim. The issue is that the 5e version is so radically different and is a game changer by its wording. Pre 5e it was just a tent made of magic. Good for wilderness travel and not much else. A way to lighten your pack load. A servicable utility spell. The 5e version is an impenetrable force dome.

Yes it has its limitations. As I keep mentioning. But its power is a bit out of sync with its level. It acts more like Wall of Force stuck in dome mode with minour environ control and a light added. Tiamat could blast it with all five heads and not effect it. And I would not know this or be blathering on and on in this thread if a player had not pointed that out while I was DMing Rise of Tiamat.

I agree with you that the average player will not think to abuse it as its weaknesses are notable. But it can be exploited to make the allready nearly impossible to break long rest just short of impossible to break.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;1067260That said, the very nature of the hut as invincible makes it such that it facilitates PC death, because the only counter to them it's use are extreme/likely lethal.

The all-or-nothing nature of LTH encourages party wipes.

Somewhere in between more like. Monsters can prep at their leisure while the PCs hold up. Problem is the PCs can leave and re-enter their little fortress and try to disrupt that. But if the monsters stay out of sight and set traps and ambushes instead the PCs may be in for some trouble. But that might not lead to a TPK. Monsters might take the party hostage if they have the upper hand. Could be a viable way to pressgang adventurers into solving a problem for the monsters.

Piling rocks is probably the biggest threat. If the monsters can find any loose rocks to pile up enough to crush or at least pin the party. But that and flooding the area might be impossible in some circumstances.

The monsters cant teleport into the dome as even that is prevented. But they can dispell it if they have a caster on hand. Or as noted early on. Just use earth/stone mover spells to drop the party out from under it. And one player thought up a really deadly counter to the hut using just move earth or stoneshape.

But the really deadly problem with using this spell in the wrong place are oozes who can just envelop the dome and wait. I actually had to remind a party of exactly this once when they discussed using the hut to rest in an area they knew a black pudding was active. They opted to retreat as best they could and use the hut outside and actually had a great idea of camouflaging it so they were less likely to be discovered.

But the game is LITTERED with save or die effects.  Charm, Flesh to Stone, the original Disintegrate, Power Word: Kill, Sleep...  What is one more?

And what happened to trusting your friends?

Quote from: Omega;1067424Somewhere in between more like. Monsters can prep at their leisure while the PCs hold up. Problem is the PCs can leave and re-enter their little fortress and try to disrupt that. But if the monsters stay out of sight and set traps and ambushes instead the PCs may be in for some trouble. But that might not lead to a TPK. Monsters might take the party hostage if they have the upper hand. Could be a viable way to pressgang adventurers into solving a problem for the monsters.

Piling rocks is probably the biggest threat. If the monsters can find any loose rocks to pile up enough to crush or at least pin the party. But that and flooding the area might be impossible in some circumstances.

The monsters cant teleport into the dome as even that is prevented. But they can dispell it if they have a caster on hand. Or as noted early on. Just use earth/stone mover spells to drop the party out from under it. And one player thought up a really deadly counter to the hut using just move earth or stoneshape.

But the really deadly problem with using this spell in the wrong place are oozes who can just envelop the dome and wait. I actually had to remind a party of exactly this once when they discussed using the hut to rest in an area they knew a black pudding was active. They opted to retreat as best they could and use the hut outside and actually had a great idea of camouflaging it so they were less likely to be discovered.

Yes, it's possible to do all this, but not without breaking immersion and making it obvious that all these random goblins or Umber Hulks are going way way way way far out of their way to break this Hut with superior knowledge of what they're dealing with than they normally would.

It makes it so the GM has to go so far out into left field to deal with it that it always stands out.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1067435Yes, it's possible to do all this, but not without breaking immersion and making it obvious that all these random goblins or Umber Hulks are going way way way way far out of their way to break this Hut with superior knowledge of what they're dealing with than they normally would.

It makes it so the GM has to go so far out into left field to deal with it that it always stands out.

Yes, it is a setting crater; its impact is larger than it should for its level and past value. That said, if such a spell does exist and is considered common enough to be in the PHB, then I would assume the setting would have acclimatized to it by then. Otherwise the world would be rendered safe by such an impact, so life MUST adapt to survive, just like if any common magic becomes common technology.

So yeah, it's crap setting design, one of many I have with the vast majority of WotC design in general. You could fiddle with it, dial back to old values, or laser ban removal (harms the least amount of surrounding tissue). I don't find accomodating my setting to bad (inflexible) design a worthwhile option.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1067434But the game is LITTERED with save or die effects.  Charm, Flesh to Stone, the original Disintegrate, Power Word: Kill, Sleep...  What is one more?

And what happened to trusting your friends?

Think I'll quote someone from upthread.

QuoteNo, because the average gamer is not going to abuse it that way. Not in my experience, anyway.

And we are discussing 5r Tiny Hut and comparing it to prior. Quite a few 5e spells work differently now.

What exactly are you arguing here? That the spell is not overpowered?
YOU are the one who incessantly bitches that casters in 5e are overpowered and now are bitching because someone wants to lower that power? Make up your mind!

And apparently you did not read any of the discussion? Really? What the hell?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1067435Yes, it's possible to do all this, but not without breaking immersion and making it obvious that all these random goblins or Umber Hulks are going way way way way far out of their way to break this Hut with superior knowledge of what they're dealing with than they normally would.

It makes it so the GM has to go so far out into left field to deal with it that it always stands out.

How is it breaking immersion??? We arent saying ALL monsters should do this. But any observant monster will likely realize the PCs are holed up and treat it just like coming across the party holed up in a barricaded room. They DO something about it. Hell even Gronan had that anecdote about the party nearly getting killed exactly because of that.

That isnt even getting into predator monsters that might well stake out the spot and wait to ambush. They might get bored and leave. They might not.

Think these things through before just sweeping it all away because "my precious immersion!".

Having used the 5E version both as a player and a GM, I didn't find that it was game-breaking. It just was off in tone from what I'd prefer.

It was a very useful spell that became our go-to choice when long resting once we got it, but I didn't find it to be game-breaking.

I see it mostly as a simplifier. Usually, the party is able to get *somewhere* to long rest - finding some bolt-hole and fortifying it. The logic of the spell here is that the logistics of going back to a bolt-hole, fortifying it, posting guards, etc. is largely busy-work that isn't very interesting. If their long rest is disrupted, that generally means that they're just going to retreat even further and try again to long rest. The logic is that all this retreating and fortifying isn't very interesting, so it's replaced by a simpler option.

Quote from: Omega;1067452How is it breaking immersion??? We arent saying ALL monsters should do this. But any observant monster will likely realize the PCs are holed up and treat it just like coming across the party holed up in a barricaded room. They DO something about it. Hell even Gronan had that anecdote about the party nearly getting killed exactly because of that.

That isnt even getting into predator monsters that might well stake out the spot and wait to ambush. They might get bored and leave. They might not.

Think these things through before just sweeping it all away because "my precious immersion!".

OK, let's imagine a pretty typical D&D adventuring ground: a giant network of caves. You'll have various cave monsters: ropers, stirge, darkmantles, cloakers, chokers, gelatinous cubes, etc., etc.

In such a scenario LTH being so invincible completely removes all tension from the trek through the area and turns it into a foregone conclusion, even if it's several levels deep.

The solution that the baddies will every so often be a smart wizard or something and Dispel it or get together to collapse the cave on them is going to either happen so rarely that it might as well not exist as an answer or beggar disbelief when monsters that have no business doing such a thing do it.

So we're left with it just being a free "refresh" button. What's the point?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1067455OK, let's imagine a pretty typical D&D adventuring ground: a giant network of caves. You'll have various cave monsters: ropers, stirge, darkmantles, cloakers, chokers, gelatinous cubes, etc., etc.

In such a scenario LTH being so invincible completely removes all tension from the trek through the area and turns it into a foregone conclusion, even if it's several levels deep.

The solution that the baddies will every so often be a smart wizard or something and Dispel it or get together to collapse the cave on them is going to either happen so rarely that it might as well not exist as an answer or beggar disbelief when monsters that have no business doing such a thing do it.

So we're left with it just being a free "refresh" button. What's the point?

OK scenario for you.  Players are in a 'megadungeon' or something large, dangerous and underground, and they're running low on resources, wizard is down to one spell, cleric is empty, hit points need recover.  So they pop Tiny Hut.  Are you going to be a dick and force them to walk ALL the way to the beginning, running into more monsters?  Or are crush them for using a spell to take a 'long rest' and recover their spells for the day (remember you can recover spells every 24 hours in 5e.)  Meaning that you're punishing them for going into the dungeon in the first place.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1067456OK scenario for you.  Players are in a 'megadungeon' or something large, dangerous and underground, and they're running low on resources, wizard is down to one spell, cleric is empty, hit points need recover.  So they pop Tiny Hut.  Are you going to be a dick and force them to walk ALL the way to the beginning, running into more monsters?  Or are crush them for using a spell to take a 'long rest' and recover their spells for the day (remember you can recover spells every 24 hours in 5e.)  Meaning that you're punishing them for going into the dungeon in the first place.

If the players are deeeeeeeep in a dungeon and are running low on resources, wizard is down to one spell, cleric is empty, hit points need to recover then the players fucked up hard. Letting them fuck up hard with no consequences takes all of the fun out of a game. For a standard dungeon crawl the players should always be weighing "should I turn back or head deeper in" if it's a no-brainer then that takes a lot of the strategic fun out.

Quote from: Daztur;1067457If the players are deeeeeeeep in a dungeon and are running low on resources, wizard is down to one spell, cleric is empty, hit points need to recover then the players fucked up hard. Letting them fuck up hard with no consequences takes all of the fun out of a game. For a standard dungeon crawl the players should always be weighing "should I turn back or head deeper in" if it's a no-brainer then that takes a lot of the strategic fun out.

Yeah, I get it.  You hate your players.

'No consequences', so most dungeons never get explored past two or three rooms then, because your players are terrified that you'll screw them over if they have bad rolls or miscalculate their resources.  What if a teleport trap puts them somewhere out of reach of an easy exit?  What if a random encounter (which by the by is UNAVOIDABLE because it's RANDOM) takes more out of them then they want on the way out, but because they are having bad luck with dice don't want to run the risk of another and killing them, ENDING THE CAMPAIGN.  Yes, they can make new characters and jump right in, but it's still a NEW campaign every time that happens, especially if you make them start at level 1 again (Which is fine, I mean, it's a new party, who are braving the depths of the Caves of Chaos, after all.)

I'm sorry, but you're reaction is a bit too harsh in my opinion.  If they have to use the Tiny Hut spell in MY anecdotal experience, it's because THEY HAVE TO.  Something went wrong, probably unexpectedly so, and I don't feel the need to punish them for things that just end up out of their control.

Maybe that makes me a coddle DM, so be it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;1067458Yeah, I get it.  You hate your players.

'No consequences', so most dungeons never get explored past two or three rooms then, because your players are terrified that you'll screw them over if they have bad rolls or miscalculate their resources.  What if a teleport trap puts them somewhere out of reach of an easy exit?  What if a random encounter (which by the by is UNAVOIDABLE because it's RANDOM) takes more out of them then they want on the way out, but because they are having bad luck with dice don't want to run the risk of another and killing them, ENDING THE CAMPAIGN.  Yes, they can make new characters and jump right in, but it's still a NEW campaign every time that happens, especially if you make them start at level 1 again (Which is fine, I mean, it's a new party, who are braving the depths of the Caves of Chaos, after all.)

I'm sorry, but you're reaction is a bit too harsh in my opinion.  If they have to use the Tiny Hut spell in MY anecdotal experience, it's because THEY HAVE TO.  Something went wrong, probably unexpectedly so, and I don't feel the need to punish them for things that just end up out of their control.

Maybe that makes me a coddle DM, so be it.

It makes you an asshole for constantly impugning other DMs motives, is what it does.

Look. In my games, players choose how deep they want to go, and YES, it's up to them how they deal with it. They could just try to find a relatively safe spot or do an ordinary Long Rest. The problem is LTH makes it braindead, and in this kind of game that pretty much destroys the entire point of playing.

The way I avoid players going back after 2-3 rooms is by structuring the dungeon so they often have to keep going forward to get anywhere. Maybe there's a ritual they need to stop and there's time pressure, maybe the way back up is actually harder than going forward, etc. It's solveable. What isn't solveable is when LTH negates the entire challenge of dungeon crawling. At that point why not just only do "set piece" battles? Which is fine, but a different game.

I don't hate my players. I want my players to have fun. Fun comes from excitement and tension. There's no tension when they can refill their health and resources at the drop of a hat (and will do so if given the chance). My job is to be the brakes and force them to explore more interesting options for the greater good of the game.