Interest in epic level play in D&D hasn't generated much interest. I say this because I rarely see or hear anyone talking about it in real life or on the internet. For those not familiar with the current iteration of D&D, "epic" has a specific meaning - player characters above 20th level and the challenges commensurate to such characters.
To me, the main problem is that the Epic Level Handbook, and the subsequent placement of epic-level material in the 3.5 revision of D&D, were just not very inspiring. It seemed a matter of the designers erring on the side of caution rather than simply going for it and coming up with some truly remarkable material. I actually understand this, really. Rather than introducing material into canon that could possibly break the game* and earn the wrath of D&D players, they decided to logically expand the game up into the post-20th-level range.
Certainly some of the epic D&D material is worthwhile. The monsters are generally very imaginative and challenging. The epic use of skills, and epic feats, are generally pretty good, if a bit sedate. Epic magic items are on par with artifacts, as they should be, and are inspiring in their own right.
However, there are places where they fall down. The Epic Level Handbook (ELH) presents a system for designing really powerful spells, really earth-shattering stuff. The main problem with this system is that the requirements for researching and casting such spells are often far beyond even what an epic-level spellcaster is capable of. Matter of fact, some gods (as per their stats in the 3rd edition Deities & Demigods) would be hard-pressed to use some of these spells. On one hand, that's not really a bad thing. It shows just how much power is involved to do some of the high-fantasy things seen in myth and literature, like moving mountains and the like. On the other hand, what's the point of having such a system if even the most powerful characters possible have a tough time using even the least powerful of the spells possible via that system?
Plus, and this is more a problem I have with the book specifically rather than the epic level material itself, the ELH wastes a lot of space on an "epic" setting. The city of Union is a place, somewhat like Sigil in the Planescape setting, which is a crossroad of realities. Trouble is, this setting reduces epic-level characters down into something almost mundane. I mean, really, when city guards are 21st level and higher, and are presented as relatively faceless background figures, it kinda says something about the whole epic level concept, right? Much is made in the ELH of how epic level characters are unique figures, the heroes of heroes, whose comings and goings shake up world affairs. That's fine and dandy, and appropriate, yet in the same book you see what I mentioned above - town watchmen who are higher in level than some of the greatest of heroes in a given campaign world. So there is a dichotomy of tone. The Union material would have better served as a web enhancement, I feel, and the resulting space freed up used for more discussion of epic level concepts...or eliminated entirely and the book reduced in price.
Over on the Other Site (and I mean EN World, you provincials! ;) ), Upper_Krust has spent much of the time since D&D 3rd edition was released discussing his concepts for epic play, and I know a few companies have released their own books about post-20th-level play. But none of it has really seemed to adequately cover the concept. Any thoughts and ideas?
*and by "break" I mean alter the balance of power such that some players overshadow the others, or the game becomes boring to play due to the PCs not really being challenged.
Convert the characters to Mutants & Masterminds superheroes. ;)
I like the rules for class advancement as they are and I don't see anything wrong with spell advancemnt either but....
I would like to see an Expanded ELH much like the psionic book, without the city of Union in it. Revamp the magic system into something a bit less complicated. Expand on the current and new PRC's, magic locations, traps, items, feats and skill usage. Some ideas on the usage of the planes in an epic setting would be nice.
I think the biggest problem with epic play for d20 is that characters and npc get so many abilities and feats and all that sort of stuff that they system becomes cumbersome.
The other big problem is the sense of adventure seems to be lost @ high level of most games. There is really very few things that could pose a threat to you, out site godlike beings. If I want to play that sort of game I would play Exalted.
So if those two things can be fixed I think it makes things more fun to play.
You know what would make Epic level play work? Lose the taboo on god-slaying.
Quote from: Mystery ManI like the rules for class advancement as they are and I don't see anything wrong with spell advancemnt either but....
Same here.
Quote from: Mystery ManI would like to see an Expanded ELH much like the psionic book, without the city of Union in it. Revamp the magic system into something a bit less complicated. Expand on the current and new PRC's, magic locations, traps, items, feats and skill usage. Some ideas on the usage of the planes in an epic setting would be nice.
Yep, sounds great to me.
I think that if such a thing is ever done, that the designers should try to keep in mind that first and foremost epic level play needs to be fun. At least as fun as play below 20th level. But it should include the kind of stuff seen in myth, legend, and, as Sosthenes touches on, comic books.
Quote from: jrientsYou know what would make Epic level play work? Lose the taboo on god-slaying.
I was thinking a bit about that after I was re-reading Monte Cook's Requiem for a God.
Quote from: jrientsYou know what would make Epic level play work? Lose the taboo on god-slaying.
Taboo? Lolth would like a word with you ;)
For me, there are two a few roadblocks:
1) I sort of think of 10th level + as "epic" to begin with. In fact, I wince whenever I see designers stat up heroes of legend and literature and casually throw epic levels at them when nothing in the legend or book suggest that level of ability. I do not, for example, think Galdalf or Merlin even merit having access to 9th level spells.
Products that do me proud here are those that actually make a big deal of having levels in the teens, and make it cool and flavorful. Like the legendary classes in FFGs "Path" books.
2) ELH doesn't have epic flavor. It has "normal dungeon bashers turned up to 21" flavor. I am SOOOO on board with you on the Union thing, as you may well know. As I once recounted, Union would have been cool, if it weren't populated with the likes of guards who have no reason to be guarding when on some prime plane they would be at the head of armies. I imagine floating golems keeping the peace, a la magical "Gorts" of The Day the Earth Stood Still. A city not cheifly populated by humans.
In fact, I talk smack about the crappitude of Palladium, but I think KS could teach the ELH crew a thing of two when it comes to making an epic city. The Splugorth city in RIFTS Atlantis would make a DANDY epic level city.
3) The epic spell system was a nice idea, but it really needs redone. It isn't up to the task.
ENPublishing had a great upcoming product I was eager to see that addressed this, but I am afraid we'll never see it.
Over at the Other Other Site (EN World), a discussion there made something occur to me. Epic level play, in my opinion, should be something like the console game God of War, at least in theme. Yeah, yeah, I know that mentioning video games in a D&D discussion is a hot-button issue. But what I'm getting at is that epic level characters should be starting to reach a level of power where they are able to hobnob or even challenge "the gods." Of course, this is predicated upon the setting being used having a Greek mythos type of pantheon, where the gods deal with mortals, and can, at times, even be challenged by them (who was it that drove Ares from the field in the Iliad?). Obviously this doesn't work in settings where the gods are inviolate or omnipotent, or where mortals have no chance of achieving immortal or deity status.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadFor me, there are two a few roadblocks:
1) I sort of think of 10th level + as "epic" to begin with. In fact, I wince whenever I see designers stat up heroes of legend and literature and casually throw epic levels at them when nothing in the legend or book suggest that level of ability. I do not, for example, think Galdalf or Merlin even merit having access to 9th level spells.
For me, it depends on a number of things. Your examples are two very good ones. Merlin I believe I could find a source for him that would back up him having access to such powerful magics. But I totally see that he could be represented by much lower-level stats. It depends on how powerful one makes the other characters in the setting. If you make, say, Lancelot, the most powerful warrior in the setting, 12th level, making Merlin a 12th level spellcaster seems reasonable.
Regarding Gandalf, you're right. He doesn't seem to be throwing anything like the equivalent of 9th level spells. He could be a multiclassed character in D&D terms, given all the stuff he can do, like fight. But again, it depends on how relatively powerful other characters in the setting are - Aragorn is my favorite "go to" example, as Tolkien refers to him as the "wisest and hardiest man of his day." So he's a good benchmark character. Where you place him in regards to levels of power is a good indication of where most everyone else should be.
I guess the main question is - what characters in myth, legend, literature, comics, etc. are clearly epic in power, per the D&D term? It's an entirely subjective thing, I know. But are there characters that personify "epic" to you (and I mean anyone reading this)? Again, it's all subjective. While Achilles is epic in power if anyone is in Greek mythology, it doesn't necessarily mean Achilles has to be epic in power. It just means that if he isn't, then no one besides a god could be, in that context. But for the sake of discussion, and to provide examples of what epic characters should be able to do, it might help to come up with examples of characters that are epic, or do epic things, in myth, literature, etc.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadProducts that do me proud here are those that actually make a big deal of having levels in the teens, and make it cool and flavorful. Like the legendary classes in FFGs "Path" books.
Sure, the teens definitely are a big deal. No denying it. Characters of that power range are powerful and interesting. But 20th level has always been something of an arbitrary limit denoting...well, something. Since the game has never really flat-out capped level advancement at 20th level, 20th has always represented a goal (even if not consciously recognized as such) and/or
"glass ceiling," above which...well, powerful things occurred. It's been kinda like Heaven; everyone wants to get there, but nobody knows exactly
why.
Something about post-20th-level characters should define them and distinguish them from those below 20th level. This is simply because (and this is just my own opinion) the game has implied (at least, before 3e) that levels above 20th are "terra incognita" where great things happen. Problem is, 3e came along and defined that "terra incognita" and, well, it was kinda boring.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad2) ELH doesn't have epic flavor. It has "normal dungeon bashers turned up to 21" flavor. I am SOOOO on board with you on the Union thing, as you may well know. As I once recounted, Union would have been cool, if it weren't populated with the likes of guards who have no reason to be guarding when on some prime plane they would be at the head of armies. I imagine floating golems keeping the peace, a la magical "Gorts" of The Day the Earth Stood Still. A city not cheifly populated by humans.
Spot on. I think we grok each other here.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadIn fact, I talk smack about the crappitude of Palladium, but I think KS could teach the ELH crew a thing of two when it comes to making an epic city. The Splugorth city in RIFTS Atlantis would make a DANDY epic level city.
I dunno about Splugorth, but I agree with you about Rifts. Say what you want about it all, at least it retains a loose, wahoo feeling that maybe D&D could use an infusion of in certain areas.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad3) The epic spell system was a nice idea, but it really needs redone. It isn't up to the task.
ENPublishing had a great upcoming product I was eager to see that addressed this, but I am afraid we'll never see it.
What was that? What happened to it? And will Upper_Krust ever actually finish up his epic project? There are Gothic cathedrals that took less time to build.
I think the problem mentioned about Union and the guards is simply a side effect of the way character level systems work.
Level X is always gonna be better than Level X-1. So if you want things to be an even challenge to Level X, it's best to make them Level X as well.
I can understand your thematic concerns about it, but at the same time, how else is one to make them relevant? If the guards in a town like Union are all weeny little commoners, how are they supposed to keep the peace in a town full of epic level PCs?
Quote from: J ArcaneI can understand your thematic concerns about it, but at the same time, how else is one to make them relevant? If the guards in a town like Union are all weeny little commoners, how are they supposed to keep the peace in a town full of epic level PCs?
How in the Wild, Wild, West did everyone carry a gun and not kill each other off? How does an unmoderated board function with everyone getting along reasonably well?
If you go around rampaging like a lunatic you're going to get slapped down by everyone else.
Quote from: J ArcaneI think the problem mentioned about Union and the guards is simply a side effect of the way character level systems work.
Level X is always gonna be better than Level X-1. So if you want things to be an even challenge to Level X, it's best to make them Level X as well.
I can understand your thematic concerns about it, but at the same time, how else is one to make them relevant? If the guards in a town like Union are all weeny little commoners, how are they supposed to keep the peace in a town full of epic level PCs?
Well, as Caesar Slaad said above, it would have to involve powerful constructs and/or extrapalanar beings bound to service. Perhaps a few mighty heroes of legend who have come to the city to retire might oversee the city's defenses. There are options beyond having a city watch composed of 21+ level characters.
QuoteBut what I'm getting at is that epic level characters should be starting to reach a level of power where they are able to hobnob or even challenge "the gods."
Sad :-( I thought fighting with gods and planar politics are what that Epic Levels are about!
I just hit level 20 with my cleric, and was starting to look which domain and portfolio looks tasty for me as a half god (which I hoped for to become in Epic Levels), to support my deity. Now I hear I have to fight the city watch? How lame is that!
We were planning on killing Iuz and stuff, not F20/R6 guys!
Quote from: SettembriniSad :-( I thought fighting with gods and planar politics are what that Epic Levels are about!
I just hit level 20 with my cleric, and was starting to look which domain and portfolio looks tasty for me as a half god (which I hoped for to become in Epic Levels), to support my deity. Now I hear I have to fight the city watch? How lame is that!
We were planning on killing Iuz and stuff, not F20/R6 guys!
I'm assuming you haven't seen the ELH. Yeah, it was a bit of a letdown. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Deities & Demigods has a good amount of material that would serve well if retooled a bit and made material available to the PCs at epic levels.
I have, somewhere, the 3.0 version of the Epic Handbook. I don't remember Union being in there, but.... yeah. Dull and lifeless, combined with a bit of a disconnect to my eyes.
Its the weird jump in scale that happens between 20 and 21 that causes me an issue. Or maybe the incomplete jump in power scaling. I dunno... I'm not really sure I should be commenting anyway, it was an edition ago, level based games aren't my bag anyway and all... still, the Epic level threats seemed sorta cool, though you do have to wonder why the world hasn't been destroyed with all those god-abortions roaming around waiting for Epic parties to stop them :rolleyes:
I think the old school method of campaign building has been kind of lost. Back in the day, you started out small having very little influence on the setting and very little power. Both were gradually built up on the long crawl to the top.
Epic level play, as I remember it, was mostly about the extremely overt influence the pcs had over the setting, and setting their sights on the god food chain so to speak.
I think the problem today, besides the ones already mentioned is that there is a hell of a lot more variety to epic level play. It seems (to me at least)a lot of the stuff out there is grounded in the mundane...when really what is needed is the mythical or the legendary. Or maybe retirement :D
Regards,
David R
Quote from: SpikeI have, somewhere, the 3.0 version of the Epic Handbook. I don't remember Union being in there, but.... yeah. Dull and lifeless, combined with a bit of a disconnect to my eyes.
Its the weird jump in scale that happens between 20 and 21 that causes me an issue. Or maybe the incomplete jump in power scaling. I dunno... I'm not really sure I should be commenting anyway, it was an edition ago, level based games aren't my bag anyway and all... still, the Epic level threats seemed sorta cool, though you do have to wonder why the world hasn't been destroyed with all those god-abortions roaming around waiting for Epic parties to stop them :rolleyes:
Those god abortions are an absolute riot to run though. The ELH itself is a bit dull, running epics is not. It's a fun challenge if you're up to it.
Quote from: J ArcaneI can understand your thematic concerns about it, but at the same time, how else is one to make them relevant? If the guards in a town like Union are all weeny little commoners, how are they supposed to keep the peace in a town full of epic level PCs?
This attitude pervades the ELH material I've seen, and most high level D&D material. It's probably my love of Exalted peeking up, but it sounds like the GM is supposed to control the PCs. The default assumption is that the GM has to have some way of keeping the PCs from doing anything they want.
Fuck that. Let them do anything they want. Epic characters should be extremely rare. They want to kill the town guards? Okay, they do that. Hell they can march into the king's throne room, cut his head off, and loot the treasury if they want to. The question becomes then what the consequences of that action are. The people left alive by the PC's ravages will submit to their slavery to be spared, or maybe seek out an epic hero to drive them off, or just flee leaving the countryside broken and ruined. The fate of entire nations will turn on the PCs every action.
The idea that the way to make an exciting epic game is to make super-tough monsters and an epic town with epic guards and epic bartenders who are epic retired adventurers shows that IMO the designers
do not get what epic play is about. It's about being a true hero of legend and making the world in your image.
At least, that's what epic play means to me, and I've not seen any version of D&D that does it even remotely well. The assumption is always that the way to deal with higher power is tougher foes, rather than larger consequences to actions.
O_o
Soooo, the guards deciding to defend their town from a PC assault, or intervene when a PC decides to rob/kill/etc. the town's citizens, doesn't count as a consequence?
Seriously, what the hell do you think a town guard is supposed to do, stand around and pick it's ass while the PCs stab the King in the face?
What "consequences" are supposed to take place when the PCs are, by right of powerlevel and GM fiat, basically gods?
I'm not surprised you're a fan of Exalted, as you seem to share that same extremist "Always say yes" philosophy so many of the RPGnet wonks do.
Quote from: J ArcaneSeriously, what the hell do you think a town guard is supposed to do, stand around and pick it's ass while the PCs stab the King in the face?
If its an epic PC doing it? I expect the guard to either
- die on the PC's sword, if he's that type
- beg for mercy
- run for cover
- offer to serve the new lord
The whole point is that the guard *can't* do anything about it. Could the guards do anything about it if Achilles or Beowulf marched into their throne room? Hell no. In an epic game, the PCs are that important.
QuoteI'm not surprised you're a fan of Exalted, as you seem to share that same extremist "Always say yes" philosophy so many of the RPGnet wonks do.
Yeah, it's to my taste. It isn't for everyone but personally if you're trying to say no you don't want to be running epic games. A gritty epic game is a contradiction in terms.
I don't know much about the Epic Level handbook, but surely at such high levels, the pcs aren't going to be messing around with town guards but rather mixing it up with demons and devils right?
Regards,
David R
QuoteThe idea that the way to make an exciting epic game is to make super-tough monsters and an epic town with epic guards and epic bartenders who are epic retired adventurers shows that IMO the designers do not get what epic play is about. It's about being a true hero of legend and making the world in your image.
Totally correct. I earned that by surviving and getting to 20th Level. Now I want the full package!
QuoteYeah, it's to my taste. It isn't for everyone but personally if you're trying to say no you don't want to be running epic games. A gritty epic game is a contradiction in terms.
I'm not looking for gritty. I do expect a challenge though. The joy to me of an epic level game is the prospect of an epic level challenge.
What you seem to describe instead sounds positively dull. Basically just handing everything to the players on a silver platter. Where's the reward in sometihng that required no real effort to get?
QuoteWhat you seem to describe instead sounds positively dull. Basically just handing everything to the players on a silver platter. Where's the reward in sometihng that required no real effort to get?
I think you misread him: He´s saying Epic people should have world shattering and epic struggles, not fight the city watch.
Challenge: yes!
But challenges that are heroic and larger than life == epic!
Like killing gods or conquering planets.
Not fighting the fuckheaded stoopid 23rd level tavern brawl. That´s inane and childish.
Quote from: J ArcaneI'm not looking for gritty. I do expect a challenge though. The joy to me of an epic level game is the prospect of an epic level challenge.
What you seem to describe instead sounds positively dull. Basically just handing everything to the players on a silver platter. Where's the reward in sometihng that required no real effort to get?
I think you're not quite seeing his point, as Settembrini is saying above. Matter of fact, what he's saying seems to jibe with what you're getting at - epic level heroes should have challenges that reflect their lofty status,
not just challenges they faced at lower levels ramped up in power. The 21st+ level city guards just seem ridiculous. Why would the PCs even be bothering with a city watch, period, at this point in their careers? Why aren't they delving through the planes, looking to beard demon lords in their lairs or staving off armageddon? It seems like the designers of the epic rules for D&D didn't really explore the implications of high-power adventuring. That's what Maddman was getting at.
Quote from: J ArcaneI'm not looking for gritty. I do expect a challenge though. The joy to me of an epic level game is the prospect of an epic level challenge.
What you seem to describe instead sounds positively dull. Basically just handing everything to the players on a silver platter. Where's the reward in sometihng that required no real effort to get?
Challenge is irrelevent, the GM can always challenge the PCs. The job of the GM in an epic game isn't just to throw bigger monsters at the PCs (though those exist). It's to let the PC see the consequences of their action.
So let's say the PC's do this. They figure out that they're basically untouchable by the common man so they decide to take over. They march in, slaughter the royal family, and declare themselves the new rulers. Yay win?
Well now there's the matter of the nobility, who are quite upset at these events. The PCs could just tell them to fuck off, but that will lead to the kingdom crumbling. What good is being a king if there's no kingdom? And the peasants may have really liked their king and hate their new rulers, even petitioning other Epic characters to come in and take care of these tyrants. Meanwhile out in the borderlands the mad lich-king has been raising his armies of undead in secret, and takes the fall of the new kingdom as a perfect opportunity to invade.
So now they have unhappy nobles, grumbling peasants, foreign assassins, and an undead army led by a lich storming in, all from a few moments of violence. *This* is what makes a game epic. Not fighting monsters with a higher CR. Facing a CR25 when you're level 25 is no more epic than facing a CR when you're level 1. Epic is all about the PCs being forces of nature. All the details of the campaign world will be swept aside in their passing. They are more important than the kings, they will be compared to heroes of old, and in a thousand years children will be singing songs about them.
As an aside, I recall some great examples of this in Piratecat's story hour over on ENworld. The group's cleric was considered a living saint by the people at large. He needed to have a 5000 gp statuette of himself made for a spell component so he went to have one commissioned. The storekeeper said "Of course, your holiness what color would you like the robes?" as he opened up a case with a dozen such figures. Seems they were popular collectors items among the nobles. Another time they walked past a group of children playing with sticks and pretending to fight monsters. They overheard that the kids were pretending to be the PCs.
Edit - Col. Hardisson and Settembrini are pickin' up what I'm puttin' down.
Some of the Hong Kong action films give the feel that I'd like from epic. An epic level character should be able to attack 20-50 low level characters at once - nothing less than whole armies and other epic characters should count or even be bothered with.
Example, in Hero, China's entire fate is basically decided by the decisions of half a dozen characters. Armies of underlings can waste the country side while the heroes are busy but they're really more part of the terrain or backdrop than foes.
The types of actions/decisions should evolve with level. At the top, a handful of entities shape the world's destiny, not crawl through dungeons for even more stuff.