Quote from: Baron on April 27, 2023, 11:25:16 PM
You've seen Appendix N. Early landmark examples of fantasy fiction included Howard's Conan, Burroughs' John Carter and Leiber's Farhrd and the Gray Mouser. Leiber made up the term Sword & Sorcery to describe his adventures, and that name stuck to the genre.

Hang on... Leiber was certainly the one who coined the genre name "Sword & Sorcery" in a letter written to Michael Moorcock, but I've read that he originally created the phrase to describe R. E. Howard's writing style, not his own. If you have a copy of a text that proves otherwise, I'd like to see it.

Would it be more accurate to say Leiber coined a label for the genre, of which his Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories were a part? And of course REH and all the other writers who were included in those discussions? No, I'm not interested in producing text for you.

Quote from: Baron on April 28, 2023, 09:17:05 PM
Would it be more accurate to say Leiber coined a label for the genre, of which his Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories were a part? And of course REH and all the other writers who were included in those discussions? No, I'm not interested in producing text for you.

Greetings!

*LAUGHING*!!!!

I swear, my friend, some people get so caught up in being litigious morons, or acting like every discussion is some kind f official, college debate. Televised. Of course, every word needs to be FACT-CHECKED!

I don't care, you know? I've heard Leiber talked about, too. *Shrugs* I don't care what kind of context he intended, or what the super-duper-secret deeper meaning he had going for saying it--or not.

Ultimately, we have a literary genre called Sword & Sorcery, and maybe a section at arnes & Noble called "Sword & Sorcery".

YAY!, right?

No text required, my friend! *laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

For me; D&D is a mixture of LotR, Conan, and Board Games.  I say board games, because it gets a group of several players around a table; who agree to use a particular set of rules, and they are playing a game with depth far beyond cards or dominoes.  This game, can go on for years.  Decades, even.  And for some players, it can be akin to improv theater.  D&D can be a meaningful game.

Purely hearsay, but I remember hearing somewhere that Leiber and Moorcock had a bit of a back and forth over the name for the subgenre. I forget now what Moorcock's proposed version was, but for whatever reason it was Leiber's that stuck. 

Like SHARK said, the origins of the label are purely academic at this point. The whole point of subgenres is to be useful when describing a piece of art to someone who hasn't read/watched/listened to it. "Swords & Sorcery" seems to mostly work for that purpose.

Quote from: Baron on April 28, 2023, 09:17:05 PMWould it be more accurate to say Leiber coined a label for the genre, of which his Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories were a part? And of course REH and all the other writers who were included in those discussions? No, I'm not interested in producing text for you.

As I understand, the conversation was originally specifically about what to name Howard's works - and sure, Leiber's own works totally fit in the same genre. This was in 1961, 25 years after Howard's death, so I guess it makes sense that other fantasy writers would have conversations about his literary legacy. I was asking about your sources on the off chance I was wrong and you were right based on some other piece of correspondance I wasn't aware of - I wanted to read up on that. No need to get hostile.

Quote from: SHARK on April 28, 2023, 10:02:32 PMI swear, my friend, some people get so caught up in being litigious morons, or acting like every discussion is some kind f official, college debate. Televised. Of course, every word needs to be FACT-CHECKED!

I'm interested in the history of fantasy literature, and when someone says something that might mean I was wrong about a detail, I ask for clarification to expand my knowledge. You call me a litigious moron for it.

OK, boomer, and fuck you, asshole.

Quote from: ForgottenF on April 29, 2023, 09:12:50 AM
Purely hearsay, but I remember hearing somewhere that Leiber and Moorcock had a bit of a back and forth over the name for the subgenre. I forget now what Moorcock's proposed version was, but for whatever reason it was Leiber's that stuck. 

Based on what I've read, Moorcock proposed "epic fantasy." And yes, Leiber's own works certainly fit under the sword & sorcery moniker.

Quote from: Premier on April 29, 2023, 09:28:48 AM

Quote from: ForgottenF on April 29, 2023, 09:12:50 AM
Purely hearsay, but I remember hearing somewhere that Leiber and Moorcock had a bit of a back and forth over the name for the subgenre. I forget now what Moorcock's proposed version was, but for whatever reason it was Leiber's that stuck. 

Based on what I've read, Moorcock proposed "epic fantasy." And yes, Leiber's own works certainly fit under the sword & sorcery moniker.

It's funny to me, because "Swords & Sorcery" fits Leiber's work (and Howard's) better. "Swords against Sorcery" might be an even more accurate moniker. But "Epic Fantasy" is a much better label for what Moorcock was writing.

Quote from: Festus on April 28, 2023, 12:22:39 PM
*Mechanically* D&D back in the day supported a sword and sorcery, survival horror play style much better than 5e does today. You could play epic story arcs and focus on the hero's journey with the old rules. And you could play grindhouse horror with the old rules. That's not really true with 5e, at least not without a lot of work to homebrew it beyond recognition. 5e is expressly a heroic fantasy game and from what I've seen they're doubling down on that with the next revision. And I think that's why the OSR has evolved and gained popularity. WotC turned its back on an entire play style and the folks who wanted that style looked for and created other options, especially just playing older editions.

Aren't the S&S and survival-horror genres in direct conflict with each other, though? Survival horror is generally defined by resource management, underpowered protagonists, and a real likelihood of death or defeat. S&S fiction tends to handwave resources, and while the protagonists aren't exactly a superheros, they're extremely capable. There's an old joke about Conan having an 18 in every attribute, and it isn't far off. 

Personally, I don't think D&D has ever done S&S well, and I mean in any edition of the game. At heart, it's just too much of an equipment-based system, and IMO that runs counter to the whole spirit of S&S. You can homebrew that part out, but it requires a pretty substantial overhaul. It does do survival gaming pretty well, and it does Vance/Ashton Smith style "weird fantasy" very well. Pure horror, I don't know about. Horror is more a mood than anything else, so that's probably down to the individual DM and table.

All that said, I do agree that whatever old D&D's faults, WOTC-era D&D is even less capable of doing those things.

I would say Swords and Sorcery.

Although I have never read Tolken's work, from what I have gleaned from it, it seems like its different then the kind of adventures found in D&D.

Heroic Fantasy -- L. Sprague de Camp

"Heroic fantasy" is the name I have given to a subgenre of fantasy, otherwise called the "sword-and-sorcery" story. It is a story of action and adventure laid in a more or less imaginary world, where magic works and where modern science and technology have not yet been discovered. The setting may (as in the Conan stories) be this Earth as it is conceived to have been long ago, or as it will be in the remote future, or it may be another planet or another dimension.

Such a story combines the color and dash of the historical costume romance with the atavistic supernatural thrills of the weird, occult, or ghost story. When well done, it provides the purest fun of fiction of any kind. It is escape fiction wherein one escapes clear out of the real world into one where all men are strong, all women beautiful, all life adventurous, and all problems simple, and nobody even mentions the income tax or the dropout problem or socialized medicine.

http://www.nerdovore.com/2022/04/what-is-heroic-fantasy.html

Quote from: Premier on April 29, 2023, 09:28:48 AM

Quote from: Baron on April 28, 2023, 09:17:05 PMWould it be more accurate to say Leiber coined a label for the genre, of which his Fafhrd and Gray Mouser stories were a part? And of course REH and all the other writers who were included in those discussions? No, I'm not interested in producing text for you.

As I understand, the conversation was originally specifically about what to name Howard's works - and sure, Leiber's own works totally fit in the same genre. This was in 1961, 25 years after Howard's death, so I guess it makes sense that other fantasy writers would have conversations about his literary legacy. I was asking about your sources on the off chance I was wrong and you were right based on some other piece of correspondance I wasn't aware of - I wanted to read up on that. No need to get hostile.

Quote from: SHARK on April 28, 2023, 10:02:32 PMI swear, my friend, some people get so caught up in being litigious morons, or acting like every discussion is some kind f official, college debate. Televised. Of course, every word needs to be FACT-CHECKED!

I'm interested in the history of fantasy literature, and when someone says something that might mean I was wrong about a detail, I ask for clarification to expand my knowledge. You call me a litigious moron for it.

OK, boomer, and fuck you, asshole.

Quote from: ForgottenF on April 29, 2023, 09:12:50 AM
Purely hearsay, but I remember hearing somewhere that Leiber and Moorcock had a bit of a back and forth over the name for the subgenre. I forget now what Moorcock's proposed version was, but for whatever reason it was Leiber's that stuck. 

Based on what I've read, Moorcock proposed "epic fantasy." And yes, Leiber's own works certainly fit under the sword & sorcery moniker.

Greetings!

Well, in my view your first commentary sounded litigious, and pedantic, and also a bit hostile.

And now, I'm a "Boomer", and "fuck you asshole", heh?

How about you being more polite when you first enter a conversation, jackass? HOW ABOUT THAT?

Maybe if you had done that, I wouldn't have thought you were sounding like a fucking litigious moron.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I want all of it.

And I'll use what is appropriate when it's appropriate.