Quote from: jadrax;671148Instruction document

You haven't seen me when I was trying to assemble a kitchen set. The instructions to open the box were inside the box.

Fred Colon, Feet of Clay.

Quote from: jadrax;671148Murder in Baldur's Gate Sundering Adventure I ($34.95) contains:

• 64 page Campaign Guide
• 32 page Adventure Book
• DM Screen

The Murder in Baldur's Gate kit contains:

• 2 Murder in Baldur's Gate Launch Weekend introductory adventure books.
• Poster to advertise the event
• 20 Flyers on how to report play for The Sundering
• Instruction document
• 20 Exclusive promo twenty-sided dice featuring the Murder in Baldur's Gate season symbol
• 20 Player maps
• 2 Packs of NPC cards
• Poster to advertise the event
• Instruction document

This sounds a lot more like the store is expected to absorb the cost, and not so much the players.  Obviously, individual stores may pass that cost along instead, but that is their choice rather than WotC directives.

All in all, it does sound like a good deal...

Quote from: RPGPundit;671721All in all, it does sound like a good deal...

Agreed.  $35 for a slim six page adventure is bullshit, but the package they are advertising has quite a bit of stuff.  Depending on the quality, the dice alone could be $35.  It really sounds like a marketing pack for the store owner to hand out and collect after the games are done for the day, like board game demos.  Maybe whoever runs it gets to keep a d20 or a couple of NPC cards or something, but it doesn't sound like the participants are supposed to chip in for the session.

Whether passing marketing costs along to the retailer will work remains to be seen.

Quote from: StormBringer;671767Whether passing marketing costs along to the retailer will work remains to be seen.

At this point in time I don't see how it can. Presumably the retailer pays for this to get beginners to show up, get interested in D&D, and buy product from them.

There really isn't a currently supported version of  D&D on the shelf right now, so what incentive does the retailer have to buy this instead of organizing play of PF stuff for which there is current product?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;671895At this point in time I don't see how it can. Presumably the retailer pays for this to get beginners to show up, get interested in D&D, and buy product from them.

There really isn't a currently supported version of  D&D on the shelf right now, so what incentive does the retailer have to buy this instead of organizing play of PF stuff for which there is current product?

Definitely good points, but realize that brick and mortar stores are not exactly seeing a lack of support at the moment.  There is still a goodly catalog of 4e books on the shelves that need to move, and 5e/Next/D&DBox One or whatever they decide on is still a good year or so away.  

Granted, the 4e stuff is drying up, but the D&D endcaps aren't sitting empty at the moment.  I would have to guess that WotC will make the transition fairly smooth for everyone, but it could be a catastrophe as well.  The 4e rollout was shaky, no question; they might have learned their lesson for 5e.  Having reliable product for the foreseeable future is certainly a mark in Paizo's favour, however.

Quote from: StormBringer;672171Definitely good points, but realize that brick and mortar stores are not exactly seeing a lack of support at the moment.  There is still a goodly catalog of 4e books on the shelves that need to move, and 5e/Next/D&DBox One or whatever they decide on is still a good year or so away.  

Granted, the 4e stuff is drying up, but the D&D endcaps aren't sitting empty at the moment.  I would have to guess that WotC will make the transition fairly smooth for everyone, but it could be a catastrophe as well.  The 4e rollout was shaky, no question; they might have learned their lesson for 5e.  Having reliable product for the foreseeable future is certainly a mark in Paizo's favour, however.

4E being a game that has been mothballed, I don't know if retailers would be doing themselves any long term favors by promoting, and encouraging new players to purchase remaining stock.

They might get a few short term sales, but how would you feel as a customer if you were new to the hobby, didn't know that 4E was dead as a living product line, and the store pushed the books to clear out inventory?

The thing to do is be honest about Next development, run encounters if you want, and put 4E product in the discount section. You will probably move more books and clear valuable display space that way. Once next actually arrives you will have to sell them at below cost to get rid of them so its better to move them at a lesser profit while there is still time to make a little something for them.

In  the present, right now,

I wonder what percentage of gamers actually go to a game store and buy printed books...regularly?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;6723534E being a game that has been mothballed, I don't know if retailers would be doing themselves any long term favors by promoting, and encouraging new players to purchase remaining stock.

They might get a few short term sales, but how would you feel as a customer if you were new to the hobby, didn't know that 4E was dead as a living product line, and the store pushed the books to clear out inventory?

The thing to do is be honest about Next development, run encounters if you want, and put 4E product in the discount section. You will probably move more books and clear valuable display space that way. Once next actually arrives you will have to sell them at below cost to get rid of them so its better to move them at a lesser profit while there is still time to make a little something for them.

We know it's been mothballed, but WotC is not exactly forthcoming with the news, and still needs some steady income until the 5e roll-out.  I don't think putting the entire 4e backlog on fire-sale would do the retailers much good, either.  It's a tough decision, but D&D is still the face of role-playing; clearing out the Player's Handbooks isn't going to automatically put Eclipse Phase at the top of the sales list or necessarily inspire anticipation for 5e.

Hmm, this does look like a good deal. I was too quick to judge. However the issue of profitability to FLGS is there. My nearby FLGSes have either backlog 4e stock or already switched to mostly PF.

Is this still setting agnostic, and does that setting agnostic also mean OSR/TSR or 3e/PF?

You know, I still have a concern about content though. I have not been impressed by WotC modules or their crippled cousins, Encounters. Any other rpg company with a decent campaign or module writing reputation and I'd be all over that (if I had the money and several other games weren't already in line). But WotC's previous writing quality really leaves me leery. I'm sure the art and production value will be functionally professional as usual, but man, that gimped writing....

Quote from: Warthur;670743How many people start gaming by sitting down and DMing Encounters? I thought Encounters was about experienced DMs running games for newbies?

If there's 5 adventures in the set that comes to $6 per adventure, which seems affordable for the DM. If the DM really can't afford it, ask the players for a dollar contribution each per adventure and you've soon made up the gap. If a dollar isn't well within someone's affordability range, they probably aren't a potential new customer.

END RESULT: Starfleet conquered D&D - that's one ay to look at it.

 For most of the month of July I was worried the D&D players were going to crowd out or push out my bi-weekly STAR TREK game.

NOPE - the 'paying for it' part of encounters turned them off so much that this past week - I had the room to myself and my STAR TREK group. One group switched to playing PATHFINDER, the other switched to SAVAGE WORLDS.

- Ed C.

Ouch! Not an unexpected revolt against "shareware," but a full revolt is pretty resounding for one poor FLGS. I wonder if those groups that switched bought those new systems that day or just dug them out of the closet for this occasion?

Quote from: Opaopajr;685342Ouch! Not an unexpected revolt against "shareware," but a full revolt is pretty resounding for one poor FLGS. I wonder if those groups that switched bought those new systems that day or just dug them out of the closet for this occasion?

If they were turned off by paying for one game, they probably changed to a different game they already had or simply changed to one that was free.

Quote from: Bill;672369In  the present, right now,

I wonder what percentage of gamers actually go to a game store and buy printed books...regularly?

My fiancée and I have bought print Pathfinder books with some regularity, but she has an interest in a FLGS and gets quite a discount. But Pathfinder is the only real game that has regular play at this FLGS aside from Encounters; one of the Warmachine/Hordes (AKA WarmaHordes) players usually runs an Iron Kingdoms game which gets precisely. two players from the WarmaHordes group (he also has my fiancée and myself, who aren't actually minis players); the rest of the WarmaHordes players either don't have time (one dropped out due to real life) or don't want to play

So no real Iron Kingdoms RPG books have sold, though for me IKRPG is like Traveller or some of Bedrock Brendan's supplements - lack of money.

Quote from: Bill;685350If they were turned off by paying for one game, they probably changed to a different game they already had or simply changed to one that was free.

They may be turned off by changing something that was free to pay. I know while I don't mind paying for stuff, but if something starts out free and then turns to pay, I'm much more likely to drop it than I am to pay for it -- even if I end up paying for whatever I replace it with.

The Internet is full of examples of this: sites that started out free and then switch to pay, only to lose a very large percentage of their members.