TheRPGSite

So far D&D Encounters has been free. DM's signed up to run games at a game store and were given a free copy of the adventure so they could run it for the players. No more.

It looks like the August season of D&D Encounters is going to cost DM's $36 for the adventure packet if they want to run it. Since the purpose of the program is marketing ... getting players in to stores and buying products ... it seems bizarre that they are now charging.

I wonder what this will do to the number of scheduled Encounters games?



http://www.wizards.com/ContentResources/Wizards/Sales/Solicitations/2013_06_08_DDBaldur_Solicitation_en_US.pdf

Quote from: bryce0lynch;663816I wonder what this will do to the number of scheduled Encounters games?

More to the point, what does it say about the effectiveness of Encounters as a marketing tool?

http://dungeonsmaster.com/2013/06/major-changes-coming-to-dd-encounters-dms-to-pay-for-adventures/

First and foremost the adventure is compatible with 3.5e, 4e and D&D Next; no more of this "download the D&D Next conversion" step that's required today. It would seem that all three editions are given equal treatment in the adventure. The book itself seems to be more than just a run-of-the-mill adventure like we've been getting. Here are the specs currently available online:

Murder in Baldur's Gate: Sundering Adventure I (product description)

    96-page hardcover (size 7.09 × 9.06)
        64-page setting book describing Baldur's Gate and its inhabitants
        32-page adventure book
    Four-panel, foldout DM screen keyed to the adventure
    Illustrated folder

...there will still be some support for the public play component beginning with the launch weekend. Murder in Baldur's Gate begins on August 21, but during the weekend before that (August 17-18) there is a special introduction adventure that sets up the new season. This adventure is free and will be included in the kits provided to your FLGS. The kit will also have a few other items of note.

    2 copies of the short introductory adventure
    2 packs of non-player character cards for the DM
    20 exclusive player maps
    20 exclusive Murder in Baldur's Gate d20s

yeah, it seems more than just an adventure and more of a campaign setting, with enough stuff for 20 players.  I can see why they'd charge for this one.  Doesn't mean that every encounter session from here on out is going to be charged.  At least I didn't read that in the flyer (could have missed it).

I haven't been keeping up with the encounters program. Is it currently being run for playtest versions of Next or is it still 4E based?

It's 4e based and they prepare a download that converts the stats/skill checks to 5e.

I've run a couple of seasons of Encounters in the past. It's clearly a marketing program designed to get people in to the stores and buying products. I'm not paying for their crappy adventures so they can offload their marketing budget onto me.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;663825It's 4e based and they prepare a download that converts the stats/skill checks to 5e.

I've run a couple of seasons of Encounters in the past. It's clearly a marketing program designed to get people in to the stores and buying products. I'm not paying for their crappy adventures so they can offload their marketing budget onto me.

Again, what part of that flyer implies that Encounters are going to a pay service?  The product in that flyer is significantly different than most encounter adventures, correct?  If that's the case, I find it a bit disengenous to compare a unique one-off like this to all of the encounters type products.

Quote from: bryce0lynch;663825It's 4e based and they prepare a download that converts the stats/skill checks to 5e.

I've run a couple of seasons of Encounters in the past. It's clearly a marketing program designed to get people in to the stores and buying products. I'm not paying for their crappy adventures so they can offload their marketing budget onto me.

Don't blame you. My guess is that since there isn't any new 4E product in development and 5E doesn't have any product on the shelf yet, producing free marketing material for non-existent products is getting harder to justify.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;663826Again, what part of that flyer implies that Encounters are going to a pay service?  The product in that flyer is significantly different than most encounter adventures, correct?  If that's the case, I find it a bit disengenous to compare a unique one-off like this to all of the encounters type products.

Oh, come on! How are we supposed to rail against WotC if you're being so bloody fair-minded?!

Quote from: Bobloblah;663829Oh, come on! How are we supposed to rail against WotC if you're being so bloody fair-minded?!

I actually deleted that quote because I don't know enough about encounters to compare how it was done before and how it's going to be done, so that quote could come off as me talking out of my ass.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;663834I actually deleted that quote because I don't know enough about encounters to compare how it was done before and how it's going to be done, so that quote could come off as me talking out of my ass.

I'm so glad I saved it, then, as that's much more in keeping with the tone of this site!

Marketting or not, for all you get that $36 price tag seems like a deal.

Especially since I can just use it for 3.x/Pathfinder.

I wondered aloud on another forum just how much business WotC might be able to steal from, or prevent going to, Paizo with a steam of products that were 3.5 compatible...

Quote from: Bobloblah;663948I wondered aloud on another forum just how much business WotC might be able to steal from, or prevent going to, Paizo with a steam of products that were 3.5 compatible...

My guess is not much. People that are still playing 3.5e might still be pissed off with WOTC. Plus WOTC seems more interested in Rules whereas Paizo seems more interested in adventure paths and setting books. At least from what my FLGS shelves look like.

Quote from: JasperAK;663957Paizo seems more interested in adventure paths and setting books. At least from what my FLGS shelves look like.

I thought the Internet said there was no money in adventures and settings, only splats.  Hell Dancey even said it so it must be true.  How can Paizo even stay in business I wonder?

Quote from: CRKrueger;663966I thought the Internet said there was no money in adventures and settings, only splats.  Hell Dancey even said it so it must be true.  How can Paizo even stay in business I wonder?

Thanks to their Undercoat & Rustproofing Adventures plan.

Is this a one-time thing because of the particular product in question? Or has it been stated that all Encounters stuff will be for-pay from now on?

Question:  For pay, for whom?

That kit looks like a store kit, so the store pays to run it, I'd imagine, not the players.

Did the stores not have to pay for any of that stuff before?

Pathfinder Society charges for the PDF of the scenario, if I'm not mistaken, and there's no print-or-dice swag for the players.

Quote from: JasperAK;663957My guess is not much. People that are still playing 3.5e might still be pissed off with WOTC. Plus WOTC seems more interested in Rules whereas Paizo seems more interested in adventure paths and setting books. At least from what my FLGS shelves look like.

Except for the Adventure card game.  And the comic books.  And the Players Companion: Quests and Campaigns.  And the Player's Companion: Kobolds of Golarian.  And the Player's Companion: Champions of Purity.  And the Player's Companion: Animal Archieve.  And the Player's Companion: Blood of Angels.  And the Player's Companion: ....oh who am I kidding I can't possibly type all that...

Quote from: Rincewind1;663969Thanks to their Undercoat & Rustproofing Adventures plan.

It's already been applied!  It's Z-Bart!

Because of the situation described in this thread - I might have Wednesdays all to myself and my STAR TREK campaign.

The two GMs at our 'weekly encounters' - don't likely want to pay the 30 bucks.

No DMs , means no 'encounters' on Wednesdays...


- Ed C.

Split the cost among the group, maybe?

Quote from: Warthur;669972Split the cost among the group, maybe?

Hahaha! Good luck with that.

Quote from: Warthur;669972Split the cost among the group, maybe?

Since the point of the thing was to have short games run for the public in order to attract new players it kinda doesn't work to ask prospective players to pay to demo your game.

OTOH since 4E is a cancelled line WOTC doesn't have much of a business interest in marketing it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;670014Since the point of the thing was to have short games run for the public in order to attract new players it kinda doesn't work to ask prospective players to pay to demo your game.

OTOH since 4E is a cancelled line WOTC doesn't have much of a business interest in marketing it.

Exactly.

Plus this thing seems a bit too long and substantial to really fit into the "short demo game" niche.

Quote from: Warthur;669972Split the cost among the group, maybe?

When your pool of players is mostly high school kids or young college students trying something 'new' does not mean spending extra money.

The whole original appeal of "ENCOUNTERS" was that it was free on a weekly basis and he people could try out Dungeons & Dragons.

With that feature possibly gone it will no longer being a good idea for most people on a weekly basis.

- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;670046When your pool of players is mostly high school kids or young college students trying something 'new' does not mean spending extra money.

The whole original appeal of "ENCOUNTERS" was that it was free on a weekly basis and he people could try out Dungeons & Dragons.

With that feature possibly gone it will no longer being a good idea for most people on a weekly basis.

- Ed C.

Again, do you know if this is a permanent change, or just for this particular case?

^ This. I refer people to my previous post: the adventure in question is clearly meant to be way more than an introductory pick-up game so complaining that it doesn't work as something it isn't trying to be feels odd.

Quote from: RPGPundit;670218Again, do you know if this is a permanent change, or just for this particular case?

Supposedly 'just for that set of adventures or 'season'.
Its the equivalent of what PAIZO might call an adventure path.

That's the problem - even if its supposed to be 'FREE" again after those three or four weeks - dozens of GMs around the country will have said a big NO to it because they couldn't afford to pay the money.

That means the rhythm of going to a weekly game encounter or having one available at the nearby store will have been broken.  Once something like that is interrupted its really hard to get it re-started.

Basically its another example of WOTC shooting themselves in the foot with the public.

- Ed C.

Quote from: RPGPundit;670218Again, do you know if this is a permanent change, or just for this particular case?

Yes, it seems to be a shift, at least for the next 5.

Sundering 2: Legacy of the Crystal Shard. $35.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Product.aspx?x=dnd/products/dndacc/sundering2

This appears to be a shift to a Paizo-like structure. Encounters used to be a marketing thing to get people in to the habit of playing D&D at the stores and Wednesday, and thus driving sales (Fail. Nothing to buy.) This seems to be a shift to publishing adventure-paths that the DM buys to run for a group of players (Paizo) smashed up with some store 'support' ... whatever that is.

I like running D&D. I'll show up and run an adventure for an hour every week, especially since I got to run for my kids, even if it was a shitty adventure for a shitty system.

I'm not going to shell out $35 to subsidize Wizards marketing and drive store sales, especially when the system and adventures suck. I'd rather run BASIC.

I like to think of this more as, "They're letting people who don't do encounters buy the modules now" rather than just limiting it to free swag for those who run the games in the store events or who game the system to get copies for sale at outrageous prices on Ebay.

Arguing about paying for these modules for some weird reason feels to me like another entitlement tantrum. If you like D&D ...and 4E.... but you don't contribute any money into the game, then one shouldn't act too surprised at it's eventual disappearance (this ignores all the other reasons 4E is going away of course).

Anyway, I've appreciated that Paizo lets me at least buy the PDFs of the PFS modules without being a member for my own use if I see fit. If WotC actually continues to let me, a guy who likes to collect the modules without participating in the local marketing event club, I'll be happy.

As for the module quality and WotC: That's another can of worms. I'll reserve judgement for the actual book when it appears; I like to think that with DDN that's one lesson they've learned, and a high quality introductory series of modules will prove it. Time will tell.

Quote from: RPGPundit;670218Again, do you know if this is a permanent change, or just for this particular case?

I'd have to dig around, but iirc from the announcement they seemed to indicate this was the new approach going forward; it was not being pitched as a one-off.

If it is 5 adventures, then that's clearly a kind of test-bubble.  If it fails miserably, they have the cover that it was just for that purpose. If people accept it, they can decide the next series will be for-pay as well.

Quote from: RPGPundit;670642If it is 5 adventures, then that's clearly a kind of test-bubble.  If it fails miserably, they have the cover that it was just for that purpose. If people accept it, they can decide the next series will be for-pay as well.

Which means it will FAIL in the long-run.

People want either 'free' or affordable as their entry point to gaming.

Best 3 introductory to RPG things I've seen in the past few years:

The PATHFINDER Beginner's/intro box set.

SAVAGE WORLDS Digest/Explorer editions...

and GURPS 'Lite' that FREE.


- Ed C.

Quote from: Koltar;670655Which means it will FAIL in the long-run.

People want either 'free' or affordable as their entry point to gaming.

Best 3 introductory to RPG things I've seen in the past few years:

The PATHFINDER Beginner's/intro box set.

SAVAGE WORLDS Digest/Explorer editions...

and GURPS 'Lite' that FREE.


- Ed C.

It sure seems set at an affordable price to me.  Why do you think this is not affordable at $25 for a 96 page hardcover book (plus DM screen and illustrated folder)? (http://www.amazon.com/Murder-Baldurs-Gate-Sundering-Adventure/dp/0786964634)?

In fact, isn't it cheaper than the Pathfinder box you mentioned above?

And isn't it about the same price as the Savage World's Explorer's Edition (http://www.amazon.com/Savage-Worlds-Deluxe-S2P10014-Hensley/dp/1937013049/ref=pd_sim_b_1) you mentioned?

It seems to me your definition of "affordable" varies with whether or not you like the game in question...

Quote from: Mistwell;670661It sure seems set at an affordable price to me.  Why do you think this is not affordable at $25 for a 96 page hardcover book (plus DM screen and illustrated folder)? (http://www.amazon.com/Murder-Baldurs-Gate-Sundering-Adventure/dp/0786964634)?

In fact, isn't it cheaper than the Pathfinder box you mentioned above?

And isn't it about the same price as the Savage World's Explorer's Edition (http://www.amazon.com/Savage-Worlds-Deluxe-S2P10014-Hensley/dp/1937013049/ref=pd_sim_b_1) you mentioned?

It seems to me your definition of "affordable" varies with whether or not you like the game in question...

Though I agree that the price isn't really that ridiculous, Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer's edition is like 10 dollars retail, 9 dollars on amazon. You have it on the Hardcover version, which is identical rules, but in a 8.5x10 hardcover instead of the 6x9 softcover.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;670679Though I agree that the price isn't really that ridiculous, Savage Worlds Deluxe Explorer's edition is like 10 dollars retail, 9 dollars on amazon. You have it on the Hardcover version, which is identical rules, but in a 8.5x10 hardcover instead of the 6x9 softcover.

Ok, is it just me, or is this magically appearing 2 posts above the person I'm quoting. It looks like I'm a time traveler or something

Quote from: Koltar;669936Because of the situation described in this thread - I might have Wednesdays all to myself and my STAR TREK campaign.

The two GMs at our 'weekly encounters' - don't likely want to pay the 30 bucks.

No DMs , means no 'encounters' on Wednesdays...


- Ed C.

Our 4E DM has begun an Encounters-style game of 4E (he prefers it to Pathfinder although he's also our PFS GM) as a fill-in. Mind that the store we have it at hasn't actually received the July season of Encounters for some reason, hence the need to fill in.

If we have to pay for Encounters I may just suggest running "game of the month" for a while, with each of our regular players running a game we'd like to demo (e.g. Cosmic Patrol, MechWarrior, Traveller and so forth), whether it's an in-production game or not.

If we do this I plan to run a couple of Bedrock Games's RPGs if at all I can. Dunno how successful I'll be getting everyone to try it but I'll have tried.

Quote from: Koltar;670655Which means it will FAIL in the long-run.

People want either 'free' or affordable as their entry point to gaming.

Best 3 introductory to RPG things I've seen in the past few years:

The PATHFINDER Beginner's/intro box set.

SAVAGE WORLDS Digest/Explorer editions...

and GURPS 'Lite' that FREE.

How many people start gaming by sitting down and DMing Encounters? I thought Encounters was about experienced DMs running games for newbies?

If there's 5 adventures in the set that comes to $6 per adventure, which seems affordable for the DM. If the DM really can't afford it, ask the players for a dollar contribution each per adventure and you've soon made up the gap. If a dollar isn't well within someone's affordability range, they probably aren't a potential new customer.

Quote from: Warthur;670743If a dollar isn't well within someone's affordability range, they probably aren't a potential new customer.

Yep.

(Additional: if I wanted to be really snarky, I'd suggest that a DM who couldn't afford to spring $30 for that set needs to start thinking about getting a weekend job that actually pays money, rather than being a free advertiser for Wizards and their FLGS.)

Quote from: Warthur;670743If a dollar isn't well within someone's affordability range, they probably aren't a potential new customer.

And when is the last time you paid a dollar for the privilege to sit in on a tabletop game with no return offered?

Let me guess, that is the standard operating procedure in your neighbourhood, and everyone does it.

Counterpoint: if someone says "faugh, I can go play a tabletop RPG with some other group for free", they're clearly already into tabletop RPGs so strictly speaking aren't the crowd D&D Encounters is pitched to.

If you want to criticise this set, then a really credible argument would be "D&D Encounters is supposed to be about getting new blood into the hobby by running demo games for newbies, and whilst it makes sense that a newbie will sign up for one two hour demo it seems unlikely that a novice will want to sign up for a 5-adventure campaign on a whim."

That, right there, is the issue with this product: it's constructed as a multi-adventure series, which is what necessitates the price tag in the first place (because you can't expect Wizards to give away a bundle comprising what's in that set for free to any Encounters DM who requests it). In general demo games are meant to be just that: demo games to pique your interest and convince you to buy in, not an investment of time and/or money in the first place. Games Workshop, indeed, usually limits you to one demo game; obviously they can't rigidly enforce that worldwide, but stroll up to the same branch and ask the same staff member for a second or third or fourth demo game of Warhammer 40,000 and you won't exactly get very far.

As part of a series of demo games for beginners, the product makes very little sense. We can conclude one of two things from this:

- Wizards have gone completely out of their tiny little minds. In principle possible, though in practice a lot of their fumbles have involved ideas being badly implemented from the start (see the miserable failure of the Virtual Tabletop, a screwup which sank their entire strategy for 4E). Corporate inertia would usually be against screwing around with the Encounters program like this provided the program was working as intended. The operative term being working as intended.

- Alternately, we can infer that Wizards have discovered (or at the very least believe) that the program is no longer working as intended. Nobody who isn't Wizards is really in a position to make much of a call here, and it's possible Wizards themselves rely on hearsay - I don't know how much data they collect from participating DMs and game stores. But I think it is entirely possible that there are a sizable number of people out there who are actually established gamers and who play Encounters, despite the fact that it's not really pitched to old hands. I am aware of several groups running Encounters which comprise no new players at all, just oldsters exploiting the availability of freebies - in fact, I can't remember the last time I saw or heard of a new player dabbling in Encounters. That might or might not be generally the case, but if it is a widespread issue then the program as a whole isn't working as intended (though it may well be working exactly as intended in some locales). Under such circumstances I can fully understand why Wizards would change their tack on how Encounters releases work.

Well, admittedly, if the information about goodies such as dice is true regarding this package, 20 d20 dice alone are worth 30 bucks, at least here.

Quote from: Rincewind1;670949Well, admittedly, if the information about goodies such as dice is true regarding this package, 20 d20 dice alone are worth 30 bucks, at least here.

What else does it come with?

Murder in Baldur's Gate Sundering Adventure I ($34.95) contains:

• 64 page Campaign Guide
• 32 page Adventure Book
• DM Screen

The Murder in Baldur's Gate kit contains:

• 2 Murder in Baldur's Gate Launch Weekend introductory adventure books.
• Poster to advertise the event
• 20 Flyers on how to report play for The Sundering
• Instruction document
• 20 Exclusive promo twenty-sided dice featuring the Murder in Baldur's Gate season symbol
• 20 Player maps
• 2 Packs of NPC cards
• Poster to advertise the event
• Instruction document

Quote from: jadrax;671148Instruction document

You haven't seen me when I was trying to assemble a kitchen set. The instructions to open the box were inside the box.

Fred Colon, Feet of Clay.

Quote from: jadrax;671148Murder in Baldur's Gate Sundering Adventure I ($34.95) contains:

• 64 page Campaign Guide
• 32 page Adventure Book
• DM Screen

The Murder in Baldur's Gate kit contains:

• 2 Murder in Baldur's Gate Launch Weekend introductory adventure books.
• Poster to advertise the event
• 20 Flyers on how to report play for The Sundering
• Instruction document
• 20 Exclusive promo twenty-sided dice featuring the Murder in Baldur's Gate season symbol
• 20 Player maps
• 2 Packs of NPC cards
• Poster to advertise the event
• Instruction document

This sounds a lot more like the store is expected to absorb the cost, and not so much the players.  Obviously, individual stores may pass that cost along instead, but that is their choice rather than WotC directives.

All in all, it does sound like a good deal...

Quote from: RPGPundit;671721All in all, it does sound like a good deal...

Agreed.  $35 for a slim six page adventure is bullshit, but the package they are advertising has quite a bit of stuff.  Depending on the quality, the dice alone could be $35.  It really sounds like a marketing pack for the store owner to hand out and collect after the games are done for the day, like board game demos.  Maybe whoever runs it gets to keep a d20 or a couple of NPC cards or something, but it doesn't sound like the participants are supposed to chip in for the session.

Whether passing marketing costs along to the retailer will work remains to be seen.

Quote from: StormBringer;671767Whether passing marketing costs along to the retailer will work remains to be seen.

At this point in time I don't see how it can. Presumably the retailer pays for this to get beginners to show up, get interested in D&D, and buy product from them.

There really isn't a currently supported version of  D&D on the shelf right now, so what incentive does the retailer have to buy this instead of organizing play of PF stuff for which there is current product?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;671895At this point in time I don't see how it can. Presumably the retailer pays for this to get beginners to show up, get interested in D&D, and buy product from them.

There really isn't a currently supported version of  D&D on the shelf right now, so what incentive does the retailer have to buy this instead of organizing play of PF stuff for which there is current product?

Definitely good points, but realize that brick and mortar stores are not exactly seeing a lack of support at the moment.  There is still a goodly catalog of 4e books on the shelves that need to move, and 5e/Next/D&DBox One or whatever they decide on is still a good year or so away.  

Granted, the 4e stuff is drying up, but the D&D endcaps aren't sitting empty at the moment.  I would have to guess that WotC will make the transition fairly smooth for everyone, but it could be a catastrophe as well.  The 4e rollout was shaky, no question; they might have learned their lesson for 5e.  Having reliable product for the foreseeable future is certainly a mark in Paizo's favour, however.

Quote from: StormBringer;672171Definitely good points, but realize that brick and mortar stores are not exactly seeing a lack of support at the moment.  There is still a goodly catalog of 4e books on the shelves that need to move, and 5e/Next/D&DBox One or whatever they decide on is still a good year or so away.  

Granted, the 4e stuff is drying up, but the D&D endcaps aren't sitting empty at the moment.  I would have to guess that WotC will make the transition fairly smooth for everyone, but it could be a catastrophe as well.  The 4e rollout was shaky, no question; they might have learned their lesson for 5e.  Having reliable product for the foreseeable future is certainly a mark in Paizo's favour, however.

4E being a game that has been mothballed, I don't know if retailers would be doing themselves any long term favors by promoting, and encouraging new players to purchase remaining stock.

They might get a few short term sales, but how would you feel as a customer if you were new to the hobby, didn't know that 4E was dead as a living product line, and the store pushed the books to clear out inventory?

The thing to do is be honest about Next development, run encounters if you want, and put 4E product in the discount section. You will probably move more books and clear valuable display space that way. Once next actually arrives you will have to sell them at below cost to get rid of them so its better to move them at a lesser profit while there is still time to make a little something for them.

In  the present, right now,

I wonder what percentage of gamers actually go to a game store and buy printed books...regularly?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;6723534E being a game that has been mothballed, I don't know if retailers would be doing themselves any long term favors by promoting, and encouraging new players to purchase remaining stock.

They might get a few short term sales, but how would you feel as a customer if you were new to the hobby, didn't know that 4E was dead as a living product line, and the store pushed the books to clear out inventory?

The thing to do is be honest about Next development, run encounters if you want, and put 4E product in the discount section. You will probably move more books and clear valuable display space that way. Once next actually arrives you will have to sell them at below cost to get rid of them so its better to move them at a lesser profit while there is still time to make a little something for them.

We know it's been mothballed, but WotC is not exactly forthcoming with the news, and still needs some steady income until the 5e roll-out.  I don't think putting the entire 4e backlog on fire-sale would do the retailers much good, either.  It's a tough decision, but D&D is still the face of role-playing; clearing out the Player's Handbooks isn't going to automatically put Eclipse Phase at the top of the sales list or necessarily inspire anticipation for 5e.

Hmm, this does look like a good deal. I was too quick to judge. However the issue of profitability to FLGS is there. My nearby FLGSes have either backlog 4e stock or already switched to mostly PF.

Is this still setting agnostic, and does that setting agnostic also mean OSR/TSR or 3e/PF?

You know, I still have a concern about content though. I have not been impressed by WotC modules or their crippled cousins, Encounters. Any other rpg company with a decent campaign or module writing reputation and I'd be all over that (if I had the money and several other games weren't already in line). But WotC's previous writing quality really leaves me leery. I'm sure the art and production value will be functionally professional as usual, but man, that gimped writing....

Quote from: Warthur;670743How many people start gaming by sitting down and DMing Encounters? I thought Encounters was about experienced DMs running games for newbies?

If there's 5 adventures in the set that comes to $6 per adventure, which seems affordable for the DM. If the DM really can't afford it, ask the players for a dollar contribution each per adventure and you've soon made up the gap. If a dollar isn't well within someone's affordability range, they probably aren't a potential new customer.

END RESULT: Starfleet conquered D&D - that's one ay to look at it.

 For most of the month of July I was worried the D&D players were going to crowd out or push out my bi-weekly STAR TREK game.

NOPE - the 'paying for it' part of encounters turned them off so much that this past week - I had the room to myself and my STAR TREK group. One group switched to playing PATHFINDER, the other switched to SAVAGE WORLDS.

- Ed C.

Ouch! Not an unexpected revolt against "shareware," but a full revolt is pretty resounding for one poor FLGS. I wonder if those groups that switched bought those new systems that day or just dug them out of the closet for this occasion?

Quote from: Opaopajr;685342Ouch! Not an unexpected revolt against "shareware," but a full revolt is pretty resounding for one poor FLGS. I wonder if those groups that switched bought those new systems that day or just dug them out of the closet for this occasion?

If they were turned off by paying for one game, they probably changed to a different game they already had or simply changed to one that was free.

Quote from: Bill;672369In  the present, right now,

I wonder what percentage of gamers actually go to a game store and buy printed books...regularly?

My fiancée and I have bought print Pathfinder books with some regularity, but she has an interest in a FLGS and gets quite a discount. But Pathfinder is the only real game that has regular play at this FLGS aside from Encounters; one of the Warmachine/Hordes (AKA WarmaHordes) players usually runs an Iron Kingdoms game which gets precisely. two players from the WarmaHordes group (he also has my fiancée and myself, who aren't actually minis players); the rest of the WarmaHordes players either don't have time (one dropped out due to real life) or don't want to play

So no real Iron Kingdoms RPG books have sold, though for me IKRPG is like Traveller or some of Bedrock Brendan's supplements - lack of money.

Quote from: Bill;685350If they were turned off by paying for one game, they probably changed to a different game they already had or simply changed to one that was free.

They may be turned off by changing something that was free to pay. I know while I don't mind paying for stuff, but if something starts out free and then turns to pay, I'm much more likely to drop it than I am to pay for it -- even if I end up paying for whatever I replace it with.

The Internet is full of examples of this: sites that started out free and then switch to pay, only to lose a very large percentage of their members.

"Pay for play" is ridiculous. I am not a huge fan of organized play, and I think focusing on it, designing D&D with organized play in mind, had its hand in weakening the appeal of the game over time. But the solution to this, in my mind, isn't to kill organized play altogether, or to make it even worse by imposing some form of subscription model to it. I don't understand what WotC is thinking.

Quote from: Bill;685350If they were turned off by paying for one game, they probably changed to a different game they already had or simply changed to one that was free.

Never underestimate the power of spite. The world is not ran by any one logic.