What could fill the neutral evil slot on the alignment chart? What makes neutral evil different from lawful and chaotic evil? How could you spin that into an entire faction of fiends?
Don't mention yugoloths, they're too niche to represent an entire alignment. Don't mention "daemons" either, since that's just a variant spelling of demon (look it up in the dictionary).
Eh, just grab something else off the D-list (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_legendary_creatures_(D)) of mythological creatures and expand as necessary.
does it have to start with a 'd'? I was thinking djinn, but these can be good or evil.
Deodand.
Ooh maybe Draugr, Norse Undead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draugr ?
Like, all the undead that aren't necessarily associated with human-centric magical study (Necromancy, Liches and Mummies), but "free" ghosts, wights, wraiths, vampires and the like that got passed along like a disease or sprung up on their own because of a great tragedy (or simply because they were just so plain fucking evil in life that they stayed behind as some kind of monster).
In that instance, Neutral could fit the bill.
There could be ancient Draugr lords in one of those neitherworld planes of the D&D mythos.
I too was thinking Djinn. They don't care who they serve, as long as they honorably fulfill the contract and probably get something they desire too. They "keep their cards close to their vest." You never know what a Djinn is really angling for. They can play a long waiting game with goals that may not come to fruition until long after the PCs are dead, dust and forgotten.
Quote from: Doughdee222;873167I too was thinking Djinn. They don't care who they serve, as long as they honorably fulfill the contract and probably get something they desire too. They "keep their cards close to their vest." You never know what a Djinn is really angling for. They can play a long waiting game with goals that may not come to fruition until long after the PCs are dead, dust and forgotten.
Thing is, there's nothing Evil about this. If anything, that's a description of Lawful Neutral.
As for the OP, if you really want something, how about the Dybbuk from Jewish mythology? Malevolent, incorporeal spirits of the undead who possess the living and use their bodies to pursue their own goals. They care about neither the twisted "lawfulness" of Devils, nor the chaotic nature of demons; only about their personal goals.
Lemures (the wicked shades of the dead from Roman mythology) might be an interesting fit, but the name is already taken. Perhaps go back to the word's origins, and call them masks, or masques. Hmm, I like the imagery but I want more mythological gravitas. How about keeping the mask concept and calling them edimmu (a similar concept, but Sumerian), instead?
They're the shades of the wicked or vengeful, those who are being punished. They reach into the world of the living by wearing the bodies and faces of those who have died. In other words, they're the undead; or more properly, they manifest as undead on the Prime.
This is the reason why all vampires are evil. It's not you inside, it's an edimmu riding your skin and mind. Different types of undead represent different types of edimmu, but their power on the Prime is just a shadow of their true being in the Lower Planes. There, they become a semi-corporeal manifestation of the concept they express through dead flesh (or more precisely, the undead are just manifestation of the true edimmu's full nature). Vampires are flitting pairs of wings, the vanes of which form fangs that can rend and tear by attacking someone's shadow; ghouls are sludgy slugs with great tooth-filled maws; and so on. Some might wear literal masks, like the Noh-mask wearing spirits from Japanese legends. They are spirits of death, come to terrorize the living.
Quote from: Premier;873191Thing is, there's nothing Evil about this. If anything, that's a description of Lawful Neutral.
As for the OP, if you really want something, how about the Dybbuk from Jewish mythology? Malevolent, incorporeal spirits of the undead who possess the living and use their bodies to pursue their own goals. They care about neither the twisted "lawfulness" of Devils, nor the chaotic nature of demons; only about their personal goals.
Ooh, nice shout.
Quote from: ArrozConLeche;873163does it have to start with a 'd'? I was thinking djinn, but these can be good or evil.
Djinn/genies are already present as the elemental planes peoples. It's difficult to market a wholly different interpretation without confusion.
Quote from: One Horse Town;873164Deodand.
Clever. Very clever.
Quote from: Necrozius;873165Ooh maybe Draugr, Norse Undead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draugr ?
Like, all the undead that aren't necessarily associated with human-centric magical study (Necromancy, Liches and Mummies), but "free" ghosts, wights, wraiths, vampires and the like that got passed along like a disease or sprung up on their own because of a great tragedy (or simply because they were just so plain fucking evil in life that they stayed behind as some kind of monster).
In that instance, Neutral could fit the bill.
There could be ancient Draugr lords in one of those neitherworld planes of the D&D mythos.
Quote from: Premier;873191Thing is, there's nothing Evil about this. If anything, that's a description of Lawful Neutral.
As for the OP, if you really want something, how about the Dybbuk from Jewish mythology? Malevolent, incorporeal spirits of the undead who possess the living and use their bodies to pursue their own goals. They care about neither the twisted "lawfulness" of Devils, nor the chaotic nature of demons; only about their personal goals.
Quote from: Pat;873217Lemures (the wicked shades of the dead from Roman mythology) might be an interesting fit, but the name is already taken. Perhaps go back to the word's origins, and call them masks, or masques. Hmm, I like the imagery but I want more mythological gravitas. How about keeping the mask concept and calling them edimmu (a similar concept, but Sumerian), instead?
They're the shades of the wicked or vengeful, those who are being punished. They reach into the world of the living by wearing the bodies and faces of those who have died. In other words, they're the undead; or more properly, they manifest as undead on the Prime.
This is the reason why all vampires are evil. It's not you inside, it's an edimmu riding your skin and mind. Different types of undead represent different types of edimmu, but their power on the Prime is just a shadow of their true being in the Lower Planes. There, they become a semi-corporeal manifestation of the concept they express through dead flesh (or more precisely, the undead are just manifestation of the true edimmu's full nature). Vampires are flitting pairs of wings, the vanes of which form fangs that can rend and tear by attacking someone's shadow; ghouls are sludgy slugs with great tooth-filled maws; and so on. Some might wear literal masks, like the Noh-mask wearing spirits from Japanese legends. They are spirits of death, come to terrorize the living.
Undead as possessed corpses is something I like far better than the idiosyncrasies of negative energy. It's perfect in its consistency and simplicity.
Book of Fiends and Pathfinder both present their own versions of the neutral evil factions. Both (unfortunately) named daemons. BoF daemons are dedicated to evil as a philosophy, replacing the hedonism of demons and the tyranny of devils with personal and philosophical ambition. PF daemons are militant nihilists who want the extinction of all life, which makes them a perfect fit for the undead possession mentioned above (so it's really odd that doesn't happen in canon). Isn't it interesting that both are pretty much opposites?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;873161What could fill the neutral evil slot on the alignment chart? What makes neutral evil different from lawful and chaotic evil? How could you spin that into an entire faction of fiends?
Don't mention yugoloths, they're too niche to represent an entire alignment. Don't mention "daemons" either, since that's just a variant spelling of demon (look it up in the dictionary).
I will mention both of those. Why daemons? Because, of course an evil race is going to use a very similar sounding name. It causes confusion which gets them more souls/worshippers/what have you.
I'm also a big fan of the 'loths, I like the idea of mercenary evil that'll work for any side as long as it's benefiting
them more.
Yeah the theme I'm picking up ("independent" undead) is a pretty cool way to go (I love the Dybbuk; I'd use that name if I were gonna go about this).
Do a google image search for Dark Souls Nito (or pretty much any of the bosses from that game). That's what I thought of immediately...
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;873161Don't mention "daemons" either, since that's just a variant spelling of demon (look it up in the dictionary).
Is that the only reason you don't want daemons mentioned? Because if it is, it might be helpful to know that the dictionary is not really a good source for such things. It does in fact have a separate meaning from demon.
In Greek Mythology, daemons were generally noble spirits, though they could really be good and evil. The term also referred to something between gods and mortals. Isn't that where devils and demons lie on the spectrum? And I don't know how closely you're using D&D cosmology, you're clearly borrowing from it, but Hades is listed as the neutral evil plane.
One other thing daemons refer to is the ghosts of heroes. It would make sense that they inhabit Hades. My own personal twist to make them fit the evil scheme would have them as restless spirits because they are bitter that a life so well lived and selfless ultimately led to an untimely or unjust demise. Or perhaps their lesser known evil deeds continue to haunt them. Not only are the ghosts in the sense of being restless spirits of the dead. Their ethical and/or moral outlook is also just a ghost of what it once was. Good and virtue are now either rejected or twisted towards evil.
Quote from: Lunamancer;873298Is that the only reason you don't want daemons mentioned? Because if it is, it might be helpful to know that the dictionary is not really a good source for such things. It does in fact have a separate meaning from demon.
In Greek Mythology, daemons were generally noble spirits, though they could really be good and evil. The term also referred to something between gods and mortals. Isn't that where devils and demons lie on the spectrum? And I don't know how closely you're using D&D cosmology, you're clearly borrowing from it, but Hades is listed as the neutral evil plane.
Quote from: Michael Gray;873277I will mention both of those. Why daemons? Because, of course an evil race is going to use a very similar sounding name. It causes confusion which gets them more souls/worshippers/what have you.
Daemon isn't similar sounding to demon. It's the exact same word, pronounced and meaning exactly the same. The original greek word, which is still pronounced the same, simply means any immortal being that isn't a god. This includes dryads, satyrs, and Death. If used in that sense, as in many anime, it should be prefixed to indicate alignment otherwise it would be grammatically incorrect. A good spirit is an "agathodemon" or "eudemon" or "calodemon", whereas an evil spirit is a "cacodemon." I'm not going to make a special exception because English has garbage phonetics.
QuoteI'm also a big fan of the 'loths, I like the idea of mercenary evil that'll work for any side as long as it's benefiting them more.
That's still too narrow. Even Book of Fiends only introduced a mercenary company as a subset of a far more expansive portfolio.
Quote from: Necrozius;873280Yeah the theme I'm picking up ("independent" undead) is a pretty cool way to go (I love the Dybbuk; I'd use that name if I were gonna go about this).
Do a google image search for Dark Souls Nito (or pretty much any of the bosses from that game). That's what I thought of immediately...
If I ever resort to using PF daemons and BoF daemons because I somehow think demons and devils aren't enough, then I have to rename them to dybbuks and deodands. Maybe through in demodands, demiurges, deuces and devidands too.
For those interested in a (possible) depiction of a dybbuk check out the Coen brothers film A Serious Man. The film starts with a short story about a couple who receive a visitor at night then they debate about who he really is.
Quote from: Michael Gray;873277Why daemons? Because, of course an evil race is going to use a very similar sounding name. It causes confusion which gets them more souls/worshippers/what have you.
To be honest that's the reason I don't like it. It would be like naming them "deveels." I can't think of a satisfactory alternative: I've even made lists! Deodand, Devidand, Demidand, Demiurge, Dementor, Dybbuk, Deuce, Dakhma, Dreggal, Dumaldun, Deadite, Duppy, Dabbat, Daggiel, Daggoth, Dirae, Da'ath, Dolmen, Doldrums, Drude, Dôls, dastard... What say you?
Quote from: BoxCrayonTales;873390Deodand, Devidand, Demidand, Demiurge, Dementor, Dybbuk, Deuce, Dakhma, Dreggal, Dumaldun, Deadite, Duppy, Dabbat, Daggiel, Daggoth, Dirae, Da'ath, Dolmen, Doldrums, Drude, Dôls, dastard... What say you?
Dickheads (and other derivatives starting with the prefix "dick"), Dingleberries, Douchebags, Dipshits, Dumbass, Dumbfucks, Dildo