Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
A single mother in a medieval society raising children alone and farming is going to die of starvation or at the very least lose the children trying to stay alive.  Families would kill their children during famine and they had a husband and wife to farm and prepare food for winter, cut the labor in more than half and you have problems.  I don't care about "context", I care about verisimilitude.  The example I'm giving is from Phandalin.  Meanwhile, they then put in the same module a butterskull ranch with a guy and a bunch of farm hands getting raided and taken over by orcs (realistic).  There was a reason why in the past single mothers were ostracized, it was due to their inability to take care of the kids and being an undue burden on people barely eking out an existance to begin with medieval farming techniques.

Sounds like a good plot hook for a very forward romantic interest.

Of course it's fair criticism that a lot of RPG adventures are written by people who don't have a real interest in history or culture. Unfortunately it's difficult to avoid these types in the RPG hobby these days, so if you want to run a grounded, historically coherent game you're going to have to do a lot of work.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2023, 06:29:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 05:44:31 PM
Greetings!

Context. Hmmm...well, single mommies in the ancient and medieval worlds were generally shafted, and hard. Unless the mommy had close family to take care of her and her children, she and the kids were screwed. Kids were either abandoned by the mommy, given away to family--or whoever, and the mommy becomes a prostitute. That was the "good" outcome. For the mommies that were young, sexy, and beautiful. The ugly women, the fat women, they routinely became impoverished beggars, and starved in the streets and gutters.

This was the constant reality facing unmarried single mommies throughout history. These dynamics have only changed because of the current reign of cucked and feminized social welfare states.

Having single mommies can be realistically portrayed in the game campaign. Typically, such women fill in the ranks of the hordes of prostitutes that throng most cities and towns, or, as mentioned, lay about in the gutters begging. A few more fortunate single mommies can maybe get by in large cities by working long, hard days as a laundry woman, cook, or also being a bar girl, or maybe working at a bathhouse. If she is not willing to be  prostitute, such jobs don't pay much at all, so they must more than likely work two jobs, or three, six or seven days a week. That's just to get by, without being a prostitute or a starving beggar in the streets. Ancient Roman sources even describe how vast numbers of "ordinary" women, single women, that may have not been professional prostitutes, still practiced regular "part-time" prostitution, such as some laundry women or cooks working their normal, grinding jobs for much of the week, but for one or two nights per week, such women embraced opportunities serving as prostitutes. Such women were also opportunistic, in that they would indulge prostitution whenever very appealing opportunities presented themselves at any given time.

Throughout the world, such as in Egypt, Persia, Britain, India, or China, these dynamics expressed themselves as constant realities for lower class women, for poor women in general, and especially for single mommies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Oh yeah, that's why I game, to get away from the dull realities of life by getting slapped in the face with the ungodly ugly realities of the medieval period. Said no one ever.

I know how really ugly was for most of human history, if I wanted a refresher I would read a book, I play to have fun.

The above quote by Shark while historically accurate doesn't sound like something that would be fun to encounter in my saturday night game. YMMV, if anyone finds it fun then knock your self out, I'll pass.

Greetings!

"Said no one ever." *Laughing* Indeed, while I typically note elements of such reality for my own groups, it is typically background furniture. As to the commentary though, it is merely a counterpoint to the happy, empowered, uber-feminist kind of imagery that is presented in the modules that Honeydipper was complaining about. Apparently, such feminist imagery is often encountered in such modules, and he expressed a preference for *verisimilitude*, which is understandable.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 06:34:38 PM
Greetings!

Good stuff, Rytrami! Your commentary is spot-on. It also reminded me of the rather frequent occasions I've read about Medieval Nobles and such, with their retainers and hangers-on. I can recall a mix of lesser nobles, middle-class Yeomen, veteran mercenaries, as well as barbarian raiders--or "former barbarian marauders" as well as the occasional "Former criminal" or scandalized ex-clergyman, serving as retainers or whatever nobleman. And these retainers were also often very much *Murder Hobos* *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Yep, imagine a gang like that! What would it have been like to run into them? LOL. Cheers!

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2023, 06:29:17 PM

Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 05:44:31 PM
Greetings!

Context. Hmmm...well, single mommies in the ancient and medieval worlds were generally shafted, and hard. Unless the mommy had close family to take care of her and her children, she and the kids were screwed. Kids were either abandoned by the mommy, given away to family--or whoever, and the mommy becomes a prostitute. That was the "good" outcome. For the mommies that were young, sexy, and beautiful. The ugly women, the fat women, they routinely became impoverished beggars, and starved in the streets and gutters.

This was the constant reality facing unmarried single mommies throughout history. These dynamics have only changed because of the current reign of cucked and feminized social welfare states.

Having single mommies can be realistically portrayed in the game campaign. Typically, such women fill in the ranks of the hordes of prostitutes that throng most cities and towns, or, as mentioned, lay about in the gutters begging. A few more fortunate single mommies can maybe get by in large cities by working long, hard days as a laundry woman, cook, or also being a bar girl, or maybe working at a bathhouse. If she is not willing to be  prostitute, such jobs don't pay much at all, so they must more than likely work two jobs, or three, six or seven days a week. That's just to get by, without being a prostitute or a starving beggar in the streets. Ancient Roman sources even describe how vast numbers of "ordinary" women, single women, that may have not been professional prostitutes, still practiced regular "part-time" prostitution, such as some laundry women or cooks working their normal, grinding jobs for much of the week, but for one or two nights per week, such women embraced opportunities serving as prostitutes. Such women were also opportunistic, in that they would indulge prostitution whenever very appealing opportunities presented themselves at any given time.

Throughout the world, such as in Egypt, Persia, Britain, India, or China, these dynamics expressed themselves as constant realities for lower class women, for poor women in general, and especially for single mommies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Oh yeah, that's why I game, to get away from the dull realities of life by getting slapped in the face with the ungodly ugly realities of the medieval period. Said no one ever.

I know how really ugly was for most of human history, if I wanted a refresher I would read a book, I play to have fun.

The above quote by Shark while historically accurate doesn't sound like something that would be fun to encounter in my saturday night game. YMMV, if anyone finds it fun then knock your self out, I'll pass.

Reality being ugly or not is a matter of perspective. I find it amazing what people did to survive with human resourcefulness and ingenuity. There are games that have prostitute classes. They have skills and can make fine characters in the right circumstances.

Quote from: Zelen on February 23, 2023, 06:40:28 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
A single mother in a medieval society raising children alone and farming is going to die of starvation or at the very least lose the children trying to stay alive.  Families would kill their children during famine and they had a husband and wife to farm and prepare food for winter, cut the labor in more than half and you have problems.  I don't care about "context", I care about verisimilitude.  The example I'm giving is from Phandalin.  Meanwhile, they then put in the same module a butterskull ranch with a guy and a bunch of farm hands getting raided and taken over by orcs (realistic).  There was a reason why in the past single mothers were ostracized, it was due to their inability to take care of the kids and being an undue burden on people barely eking out an existance to begin with medieval farming techniques.

Sounds like a good plot hook for a very forward romantic interest.

Of course it's fair criticism that a lot of RPG adventures are written by people who don't have a real interest in history or culture. Unfortunately it's difficult to avoid these types in the RPG hobby these days, so if you want to run a grounded, historically coherent game you're going to have to do a lot of work.

Greetings!

Yeah, my friend! Very true! I've had to put crazy amounts of work into my own campaign world, to accomplish just that--a grounded, historically coherent game. I like having a coherent, historical foundation, so as to provide a solid and constant environment within the campaign. Knowing what such foundations are, it makes it much easier and more manageable to include elements that *depart* from such a foundation. That's important, to make sure such modern, anachronistic, or whatever crazy elements don't *boom* entirely corrupt and ruin the campaign.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.

Would it help if the two kids were half-orcs?

Quote from: DocJones on February 23, 2023, 07:49:19 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.

Would it help if the two kids were half-orcs?

LOL could you imagine the response if they published that?

Quote from: DocJones on February 23, 2023, 07:49:19 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.

Would it help if the two kids were half-orcs?

At least give her a realistic peasant occupation, like charcoal burner.

Quote from: Venka on February 23, 2023, 08:25:37 PM

Quote from: DocJones on February 23, 2023, 07:49:19 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.

Would it help if the two kids were half-orcs?

LOL could you imagine the response if they published that?

Greetings!

In my own campaign, in regions where Orcs are present, this exact process is the dynamic of how more or less urbanized populations of Half Orcs develop. With every invasion by Orc Hordes, there's always thousands of human women that become pregnant and give birth to Half Orc spawn. The Half Orcs then get with each other, as well as various willing Human women, and breed even more Half Orcs. In a relatively brief span of time, there are entire sub-populations of hordes of Half Orcs living amongst many nearby cities and towns. This, then, supplies the endless masses of Half Orc criminals, mercenaries, prostitutes, and sweating, grunting, laboring classes.

I love it. It provides all of the dynamics for having emotionally incontinent, violent, socially dysfunctional Half Orcs encountered so often. Single mommies, whores, drugs, gambling, train-wreck social relationships, numerous ruffians coming in and out of the family picture, the uneducated, poor half Orc single mommies themselves embracing and promoting a culture of total hedonism, debauchery, violent competition, and self-preservation. Thus, both Half Orc males and females grow up in a violent, hedonistic, debauched sub-culture that promotes an endless cycle of poverty, crime, brutality, as well as social and emotional dysfunction.

I have an entire stable of stock Half Orc characters as whores, dancers, thugs, petty thieves, mercenaries, laundry women, bathhouse girls, slave drivers, labourers, charlatans, demagogues, dim-witted cultists, and assortments of grifters, criminals, and con-artists in which to populate any poor, violent urban city district or town outskirts where all the unwashed masses gather together in gibbering chaos. More respectable occupations include maid, house servant, field hand, Gong Farmer, Jailer, Sewer Worker, and Coachman. Opportunities abound for hard-working Half Orcs. Various kinds of entertainers, street performers, hustlers, and adventurers are also very popular.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

"mix of lesser nobles, middle-class Yeomen, veteran mercenaries, as well as barbarian raiders--or "former barbarian marauders" as well as the occasional "Former criminal" or scandalized ex-clergyman, serving as retainers or whatever nobleman. And these retainers were also often very much *Murder Hobos*"

This made me think of the mercenary group in Flesh+Blood. Almost a spot on description!

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 04:58:32 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 04:21:55 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM

Quote from: tenbones on February 23, 2023, 10:00:36 AM

Quote from: Ron Maiden on February 22, 2023, 10:54:32 AM
I could care less about whatever meaning anyone wants to put behind his words. He explicitly states, "guys like me can't leave the hobby fast enough" and doesn't leave himself. He's a disingenuous twat and it's sad anyone would continue to take him seriously from this point on.

Your logic marks you as problematic. Logic is the work of the white-devils running WotC that can't seem to leave fast enough.

If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.

Even if its a grimly determined widow whose yeoman husband was killed by goblin raiders and refuses to give up the land that is her young son's by right and that her husband died protecting? If she hears you're out hunting those goblin raiders she'll give you her husband's axe if you promise to bury it the skull of one of the goblins as a message from her.

Context is everything.

A single mother in a medieval society raising children alone and farming is going to die of starvation or at the very least lose the children trying to stay alive.  Families would kill their children during famine and they had a husband and wife to farm and prepare food for winter, cut the labor in more than half and you have problems.  I don't care about "context", I care about verisimilitude.  The example I'm giving is from Phandalin.  Meanwhile, they then put in the same module a butterskull ranch with a guy and a bunch of farm hands getting raided and taken over by orcs (realistic).  There was a reason why in the past single mothers were ostracized, it was due to their inability to take care of the kids and being an undue burden on people barely eking out an existance to begin with medieval farming techniques.

Meh. D&D has never been hard medieval... its more the Western genre with Medieval trappings on it.

I was specifically envisioning with my example the widowed farm/ranch owner from so many Western films whose husband was killed by bandits and is trying to keep the farm/ranch afloat... and in comes the protagonist to save the day by killing the bandits and restoring peace to the land (and either riding off or settling down with the widow depending on the particulars of the story).

Its practically a stock trope of the genre D&D's heart was based in... I just added the same level of medieval trappings old school TSR would have. Yeoman instead of rancher, goblins instead of bandits, axe instead of gun.

Almost anything is possible as a temporary, highly unstable situation that happens to be that way at the moment the PCs interact with it.  Which is also, I suppose, a bit of a trope.  That is, it only even comes up in the first place because it is unusual.

The problem that WotC and others of their ilk run into is that they don't want to admit that a heroic deed is on the table.  (This is also why so many modern fantasy authors are incapable of ending their stories, but I digress.)  The recently widowed farmer and her two surviving children, who will soon be in a far worst state if nothing is done--that's a useful situation.  Especially if there is nothing forced about it, and helping that family is not straight-forward or easy.  If the PCs can't or won't help, it will devolve. How far will depend on how far the GM wants to let it go.  I'm usually running PG-13 or thereabouts, so I'll only let it go so far, at least "on screen".  But devolve it will.

Meanwhile, the modern mindset is, "I am widow, hear me roar".  If you are going that route and aren't going to come across as a complete moron, you'd better have some other context explaining how the widow is herself heroic.  But the morons don't want that, either.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 10:50:25 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 04:58:32 PM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 04:21:55 PM

Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM

Quote from: tenbones on February 23, 2023, 10:00:36 AM

Quote from: Ron Maiden on February 22, 2023, 10:54:32 AM
I could care less about whatever meaning anyone wants to put behind his words. He explicitly states, "guys like me can't leave the hobby fast enough" and doesn't leave himself. He's a disingenuous twat and it's sad anyone would continue to take him seriously from this point on.

Your logic marks you as problematic. Logic is the work of the white-devils running WotC that can't seem to leave fast enough.

If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.

Even if its a grimly determined widow whose yeoman husband was killed by goblin raiders and refuses to give up the land that is her young son's by right and that her husband died protecting? If she hears you're out hunting those goblin raiders she'll give you her husband's axe if you promise to bury it the skull of one of the goblins as a message from her.

Context is everything.

A single mother in a medieval society raising children alone and farming is going to die of starvation or at the very least lose the children trying to stay alive.  Families would kill their children during famine and they had a husband and wife to farm and prepare food for winter, cut the labor in more than half and you have problems.  I don't care about "context", I care about verisimilitude.  The example I'm giving is from Phandalin.  Meanwhile, they then put in the same module a butterskull ranch with a guy and a bunch of farm hands getting raided and taken over by orcs (realistic).  There was a reason why in the past single mothers were ostracized, it was due to their inability to take care of the kids and being an undue burden on people barely eking out an existance to begin with medieval farming techniques.

Meh. D&D has never been hard medieval... its more the Western genre with Medieval trappings on it.

I was specifically envisioning with my example the widowed farm/ranch owner from so many Western films whose husband was killed by bandits and is trying to keep the farm/ranch afloat... and in comes the protagonist to save the day by killing the bandits and restoring peace to the land (and either riding off or settling down with the widow depending on the particulars of the story).

Its practically a stock trope of the genre D&D's heart was based in... I just added the same level of medieval trappings old school TSR would have. Yeoman instead of rancher, goblins instead of bandits, axe instead of gun.

Greetings!

Good point, Chris! Yes, I agree. The "Western" trope you cite is excellent. Historically, it also is based very much in reality. Life on the frontier and prairies was often brutal, either from savage Indian tribes, bands of outlaws and desperadoes, and the ever-present threat from disease, illness, or ordinary injuries.

Always a good plot-line in so many Westerns!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 05:44:31 PM
Greetings!

Context. Hmmm...well, single mommies in the ancient and medieval worlds were generally shafted, and hard. Unless the mommy had close family to take care of her and her children, she and the kids were screwed. Kids were either abandoned by the mommy, given away to family--or whoever, and the mommy becomes a prostitute. That was the "good" outcome. For the mommies that were young, sexy, and beautiful. The ugly women, the fat women, they routinely became impoverished beggars, and starved in the streets and gutters.

This was the constant reality facing unmarried single mommies throughout history. These dynamics have only changed because of the current reign of cucked and feminized social welfare states.

Having single mommies can be realistically portrayed in the game campaign. Typically, such women fill in the ranks of the hordes of prostitutes that throng most cities and towns, or, as mentioned, lay about in the gutters begging. A few more fortunate single mommies can maybe get by in large cities by working long, hard days as a laundry woman, cook, or also being a bar girl, or maybe working at a bathhouse. If she is not willing to be  prostitute, such jobs don't pay much at all, so they must more than likely work two jobs, or three, six or seven days a week. That's just to get by, without being a prostitute or a starving beggar in the streets. Ancient Roman sources even describe how vast numbers of "ordinary" women, single women, that may have not been professional prostitutes, still practiced regular "part-time" prostitution, such as some laundry women or cooks working their normal, grinding jobs for much of the week, but for one or two nights per week, such women embraced opportunities serving as prostitutes. Such women were also opportunistic, in that they would indulge prostitution whenever very appealing opportunities presented themselves at any given time.

Throughout the world, such as in Egypt, Persia, Britain, India, or China, these dynamics expressed themselves as constant realities for lower class women, for poor women in general, and especially for single mommies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Although that's historical, Phandalin is D&D American Frontier/Wild West not historical medieval or ancient world. The societies you describe were at or close to Malthusian limits. In Phandalin etc there's plenty of farm land for everyone, and not even any taxes to pay. Of course a widowed farm-wife in the Old West would still remarry as fast as possible, unless maybe she had plenty of adult male children/siblings/uncles.

Edit: An issue I do have with modern left-coast D&D (& Pathfinder) is that they keep the Wild West setup but then the characters have the mores of 21st century Seattle, a completely different society. So you have all these 'strong independent women' NPCs, most of the NPCs are unmarried, the gender/sex balance is either 50-50 or skewed female, and lots of homosexual 'married' couples ofc. I appreciate it's a fantasy game, but I like things to be justifiable. If you want a setting with Seattle mores, do an urban fantasy high magic setting, something like Eberron maybe.

Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2023, 02:07:10 AM

Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 05:44:31 PM
Greetings!

Context. Hmmm...well, single mommies in the ancient and medieval worlds were generally shafted, and hard. Unless the mommy had close family to take care of her and her children, she and the kids were screwed. Kids were either abandoned by the mommy, given away to family--or whoever, and the mommy becomes a prostitute. That was the "good" outcome. For the mommies that were young, sexy, and beautiful. The ugly women, the fat women, they routinely became impoverished beggars, and starved in the streets and gutters.

This was the constant reality facing unmarried single mommies throughout history. These dynamics have only changed because of the current reign of cucked and feminized social welfare states.

Having single mommies can be realistically portrayed in the game campaign. Typically, such women fill in the ranks of the hordes of prostitutes that throng most cities and towns, or, as mentioned, lay about in the gutters begging. A few more fortunate single mommies can maybe get by in large cities by working long, hard days as a laundry woman, cook, or also being a bar girl, or maybe working at a bathhouse. If she is not willing to be  prostitute, such jobs don't pay much at all, so they must more than likely work two jobs, or three, six or seven days a week. That's just to get by, without being a prostitute or a starving beggar in the streets. Ancient Roman sources even describe how vast numbers of "ordinary" women, single women, that may have not been professional prostitutes, still practiced regular "part-time" prostitution, such as some laundry women or cooks working their normal, grinding jobs for much of the week, but for one or two nights per week, such women embraced opportunities serving as prostitutes. Such women were also opportunistic, in that they would indulge prostitution whenever very appealing opportunities presented themselves at any given time.

Throughout the world, such as in Egypt, Persia, Britain, India, or China, these dynamics expressed themselves as constant realities for lower class women, for poor women in general, and especially for single mommies.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Although that's historical, Phandalin is D&D American Frontier/Wild West not historical medieval or ancient world. The societies you describe were at or close to Malthusian limits. In Phandalin etc there's plenty of farm land for everyone, and not even any taxes to pay. Of course a widowed farm-wife in the Old West would still remarry as fast as possible, unless maybe she had plenty of adult male children/siblings/uncles.

Edit: An issue I do have with modern left-coast D&D (& Pathfinder) is that they keep the Wild West setup but then the characters have the mores of 21st century Seattle, a completely different society. So you have all these 'strong independent women' NPCs, most of the NPCs are unmarried, the gender/sex balance is either 50-50 or skewed female, and lots of homosexual 'married' couples ofc. I appreciate it's a fantasy game, but I like things to be justifiable. If you want a setting with Seattle mores, do an urban fantasy high magic setting, something like Eberron maybe.

One of the things I absolutely hate about the whole "it's fantasy, you can do what you want" view is that the word fantasy doesn't mean nonsensical. Even fantasy worlds have to abide by rules. That's worldbuilding 101. And while dragons and magic aren't real, the fact of the matter is that we have historical references for blacksmiths and farmers and unmarried women. Those historical references have an affect on what you see as probable within the mundane parts of that fantasy world. I can pick up a fantasy book and really get into the parts where magic is being flung in every direction as dragons reduce various parties to ash, but I'm immediately pulled out of the immersion when the writer/storyteller feels the need to insert the flamboyant openly gay couple and the tranny chick who looks like a chick but sounds like a dude (looking at you, Hogwarts Legacy).

Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on February 24, 2023, 03:16:29 AM
One of the things I absolutely hate about the whole "it's fantasy, you can do what you want" view is that the word fantasy doesn't mean nonsensical. Even fantasy worlds have to abide by rules.

It should make sense to the inhabitants of the world. The NPCs know what their daily lives are, where their food comes from, how dangerous the wilds are, that sort of thing. One common trope I dislike is the undefended village surrounded by dangerous wilds full of hostile monsters. Even when I first started RPGs age 11 I naturally created fantasy villages with palisades to keep the monsters out. I was shocked when I first started encountering these unwalled 'starter town' villages. It only makes sense if the monsters are entering a previously safe area. No one is going to settle the wilds of the Sword Coast or Varisia and not build a wall!