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D&D Boss Says White Guys Need to Leave D&D

Started by RPGPundit, February 07, 2023, 09:43:57 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

GeekyBugle

Quote from: jhkim on February 15, 2023, 05:52:56 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 15, 2023, 04:56:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 09, 2023, 02:16:06 AM
In case you didn't get it that's sarcasm, not only he WAS talking about the player base, but your defense of the racist and sexist fuck doesn't make things any better.

You can call it a pony if you want I was making the point that this had nothing to do with saying ANYTHING about consumers of WOTC products and it just has to do with a very small department of guys working at WOTC.

I posted the transcript in the other thread. Here it is again:

QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?

Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.

These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.

(#1) Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

(#2) And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.

(#3) And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.

I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.

I added in bold markers for sections #1, #2, and #3.

In #1, he's admitting that the D&D management is 100% white male, but he is claiming that the current player base is less than majority white male (meaning under 50%).

In #2, he's saying that his target is for the management to look like the current player base. I presume this means having similar race/gender demographics, which would mean less than 50% white male.

In #3, he says that "guys like him" can't leave soon enough.

-----

I read it as him talking about the D&D management - reiterating his previous points. That was the question asked of him, and what he had been talking about. But one can make of it what one wills.

I don't believe him, but I think he was trying to explain why D&D management is 100% white male - and why he claims that is going to change.

Using your own words from the other thread:

"It would be better for this hobby if (insert any group except white straight men) would leave the workforce"

Do you see the problem now? If you don't then there's no hope for you.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

Brad

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 15, 2023, 08:20:52 PM
Using your own words from the other thread:

"It would be better for this hobby if (insert any group except white straight men) would leave the workforce"

Do you see the problem now? If you don't then there's no hope for you.

jhkim is a hardcore California leftist, so it's no surprise his thoughts on the matter align perfectly with whatever the current line of bullshit reasoning is to justify this sort of crap.
It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance.

Effete

Quote from: Wtrmute on February 09, 2023, 10:38:02 AM
... Also directing COVID funds into minority neighbourhoods (or, in the past, directing housing subsidies preferentially to majority-white neighbourhoods) isn't systemic racism, just plain racism.

No it's not. It's merely directing more funds to communities that are more adversely affected. It's a fact that black people have stronger symptoms from Covid than others (possibly due to genetics, but also possible because of an overlap with obesity, which also exaccerbates Covid symptoms). Targeting a known problem is not racism. It's the same reason police tend to patrol black communities more regularly... they simply go where the crime is. That's not racist either.

TheGwyrigons

#108
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PM
Quote from: DocJones on February 08, 2023, 07:28:51 PM
The odds of seeing a black person anywhere near their Renton headquarters is about 1 in 140.
Maybe they should move to a more diverse community. 
One where "marginalized" people can afford to live and work.

Where are you getting that? From the census data I see, the city of Renton is 48% white, 24% Asian, 11% mixed race, and 8% black. (Also 15% Hispanic or Latino of all races.)

https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/rentoncitywashington

I don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed. Here on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon. And that's just people who are open about it. If I just look at the current news, I see discrimination lawsuits for supervisor behavior of "jokes" like "What's the best way to see a black man? At the end of a scope." There are also lawsuits over discrimination against whites, which exists as well. It's not like one implies that the other can't exist anywhere.

Overt racism?

I ain't American but probably the most overt and perverse displays of visceral racial hatred in the US in the past few years came from far-left activists who had no hesitation shouting racially abusive language at black law enforcement officers for months on end in cities like Portland.

A dumb joke is a dumb joke. But having it in you to scream the n-word or the c-word at any Black man or woman who so much as wears or badge—or, God forbid, votes conservative—is exponentially worse.

That and the fact the media and mob just genuflected before such activists like a bunch of cowards says a great deal about the left in your country. It cares more about political tribalism than it ever genuinely will about black people.

jhkim

Quote from: TheGwyrigons on February 15, 2023, 10:25:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PM
I don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed. Here on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon. And that's just people who are open about it. If I just look at the current news, I see discrimination lawsuits for supervisor behavior of "jokes" like "What's the best way to see a black man? At the end of a scope." There are also lawsuits over discrimination against whites, which exists as well. It's not like one implies that the other can't exist anywhere.

Overt racism?

I ain't American but probably the most overt and perverse displays of visceral racial hatred in the US in the past few years came from far-left activists who had no hesitation shouting racially abusive language at black law enforcement officers for months on end in cities like Portland.

Hi, TheGwyrigons. You're relatively new, so I'm not sure if you're aware. When I referred to "overt racism" on these forums, here is what I am talking about:

Quote from: AlathonI thought I was quite clear the first time, but I'll gladly spell it out.

1.  Do you think America is and should be a nation led by white people for white people?
Is? No.  Should be? Yes.

2.  Do you think it's wrong for white people to have children with non-white people?
With Blacks, Africans, Aborigines, Mestizos, and semites, yes.  It's marrying down in every way that truly matters.  I guess some of it is eugenic, to judge by the sort of white women typically seen with mulatto babies, but it's still sad.

With the northern Asian peoples, it's more like marrying sideways, so it's a judgement call.  Some limited amount of intermarriage can be healthy, as a hedge against consanguinity and to acquire beneficial genetic mutations.  Couples should consider seriously the cultural challenges they take on by having two very different family trees to work with and sometimes appease.

For others (Inuit, Amerindian, south-Asian, Persian, etc..) judgement call, but they are not peers in achievement or intellect.

3.  Do you think Jews secretly conspire to cause America to go to war, while controlling the finance and entertainment industry?
No, there's nothing secret about it.  AIPAC operates openly.  The ADL operates openly.  America's warmongering in the middle east, and the deplatforming of those who criticize jews, have not been secret.

And I agree that far-left racism exists as well. As I said, both can exist at the same time.

Spinachcat

I'd trade Alathon for jhkim in a heartbeat.
Definitely would increase the quality of the forum.
And the hobby.

I may not have agreed with Alathon, but he had the guts to express his unpopular opinions WHICH ARE EXPRESSLY PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT. He was quite unlike jhkim who just parrots the leftist bullshit du jour and whines non-stop like the pathetic little Bay Area bitch he is.


Wtrmute

Quote from: Effete on February 15, 2023, 09:40:51 PM
Quote from: Wtrmute on February 09, 2023, 10:38:02 AM
... Also directing COVID funds into minority neighbourhoods (or, in the past, directing housing subsidies preferentially to majority-white neighbourhoods) isn't systemic racism, just plain racism.

No it's not. It's merely directing more funds to communities that are more adversely affected. It's a fact that black people have stronger symptoms from Covid than others (possibly due to genetics, but also possible because of an overlap with obesity, which also exaccerbates Covid symptoms). Targeting a known problem is not racism. It's the same reason police tend to patrol black communities more regularly... they simply go where the crime is. That's not racist either.

The premise is that if the funds were appropriately distributed, which doesn't mean absolutely equal distribution, then it would be simply "directing more funds to communities that are more adversely affected." The point is that the funds were skewed even beyond what is appropriate considering the (as far as Government rhetoric goes, non-existent) genetic differences between different populations. But my main point wasn't even that; it's that racism is not systemic unless it is codified into law, and the distribution of funds by a bureaucratic organisation doesn't meet that standard.

RPGPundit

Quote from: tenbones on February 15, 2023, 10:35:45 AM
Well I think you all should oblige him. All the white-people should leave D&D.

I want to watch what happens.

I honestly feel bad for People of Color, being encouraged to stay with WotC products... hasn't the Left hurt them enough?
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RPGPundit

Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2023, 12:22:51 AM
Quote from: TheGwyrigons on February 15, 2023, 10:25:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PM
I don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed. Here on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon. And that's just people who are open about it. If I just look at the current news, I see discrimination lawsuits for supervisor behavior of "jokes" like "What's the best way to see a black man? At the end of a scope." There are also lawsuits over discrimination against whites, which exists as well. It's not like one implies that the other can't exist anywhere.

Overt racism?

I ain't American but probably the most overt and perverse displays of visceral racial hatred in the US in the past few years came from far-left activists who had no hesitation shouting racially abusive language at black law enforcement officers for months on end in cities like Portland.

Hi, TheGwyrigons. You're relatively new, so I'm not sure if you're aware. When I referred to "overt racism" on these forums, here is what I am talking about:

Quote from: AlathonI thought I was quite clear the first time, but I'll gladly spell it out.

1.  Do you think America is and should be a nation led by white people for white people?
Is? No.  Should be? Yes.

2.  Do you think it's wrong for white people to have children with non-white people?
With Blacks, Africans, Aborigines, Mestizos, and semites, yes.  It's marrying down in every way that truly matters.  I guess some of it is eugenic, to judge by the sort of white women typically seen with mulatto babies, but it's still sad.

With the northern Asian peoples, it's more like marrying sideways, so it's a judgement call.  Some limited amount of intermarriage can be healthy, as a hedge against consanguinity and to acquire beneficial genetic mutations.  Couples should consider seriously the cultural challenges they take on by having two very different family trees to work with and sometimes appease.

For others (Inuit, Amerindian, south-Asian, Persian, etc..) judgement call, but they are not peers in achievement or intellect.

3.  Do you think Jews secretly conspire to cause America to go to war, while controlling the finance and entertainment industry?
No, there's nothing secret about it.  AIPAC operates openly.  The ADL operates openly.  America's warmongering in the middle east, and the deplatforming of those who criticize jews, have not been secret.

And I agree that far-left racism exists as well. As I said, both can exist at the same time.


Real classy sharing that, without stating that it's written by someone who was immediately banned for racism. Especially since this is in a public thread, and that's in a members-only thread so people could assume that's acceptable behavior here.
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you\'ve played \'medieval fantasy\' until you play L&D.


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The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Grognard GM

#114
Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2023, 12:22:51 AM
Quote from: TheGwyrigons on February 15, 2023, 10:25:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PM
I don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed. Here on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon. And that's just people who are open about it. If I just look at the current news, I see discrimination lawsuits for supervisor behavior of "jokes" like "What's the best way to see a black man? At the end of a scope." There are also lawsuits over discrimination against whites, which exists as well. It's not like one implies that the other can't exist anywhere.

Overt racism?

I ain't American but probably the most overt and perverse displays of visceral racial hatred in the US in the past few years came from far-left activists who had no hesitation shouting racially abusive language at black law enforcement officers for months on end in cities like Portland.

Hi, TheGwyrigons. You're relatively new, so I'm not sure if you're aware. When I referred to "overt racism" on these forums, here is what I am talking about:

Quote from: AlathonI thought I was quite clear the first time, but I'll gladly spell it out.

1.  Do you think America is and should be a nation led by white people for white people?
Is? No.  Should be? Yes.

2.  Do you think it's wrong for white people to have children with non-white people?
With Blacks, Africans, Aborigines, Mestizos, and semites, yes.  It's marrying down in every way that truly matters.  I guess some of it is eugenic, to judge by the sort of white women typically seen with mulatto babies, but it's still sad.

With the northern Asian peoples, it's more like marrying sideways, so it's a judgement call.  Some limited amount of intermarriage can be healthy, as a hedge against consanguinity and to acquire beneficial genetic mutations.  Couples should consider seriously the cultural challenges they take on by having two very different family trees to work with and sometimes appease.

For others (Inuit, Amerindian, south-Asian, Persian, etc..) judgement call, but they are not peers in achievement or intellect.

3.  Do you think Jews secretly conspire to cause America to go to war, while controlling the finance and entertainment industry?
No, there's nothing secret about it.  AIPAC operates openly.  The ADL operates openly.  America's warmongering in the middle east, and the deplatforming of those who criticize jews, have not been secret.

And I agree that far-left racism exists as well. As I said, both can exist at the same time.

Yes, once again roll out the one guy we had, who was instantly banned, and stand him up against LEGIONS of lefty nutjobs; then declare apples to be oranges.

EDIT: Removed throwaway comment as I'm wary of 'no politics' rule.
I'm a middle aged guy with a lot of free time, looking for similar, to form a group for regular gaming. You should be chill, non-woke, and have time on your hands.

See below:

https://www.therpgsite.com/news-and-adverts/looking-to-form-a-group-of-people-with-lots-of-spare-time-for-regular-games/

jhkim

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 16, 2023, 07:44:23 AM
Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2023, 12:22:51 AM
Quote from: TheGwyrigons on February 15, 2023, 10:25:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PM
I don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed. Here on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon. And that's just people who are open about it. If I just look at the current news, I see discrimination lawsuits for supervisor behavior of "jokes" like "What's the best way to see a black man? At the end of a scope." There are also lawsuits over discrimination against whites, which exists as well. It's not like one implies that the other can't exist anywhere.

Overt racism?

I ain't American but probably the most overt and perverse displays of visceral racial hatred in the US in the past few years came from far-left activists who had no hesitation shouting racially abusive language at black law enforcement officers for months on end in cities like Portland.

Hi, TheGwyrigons. You're relatively new, so I'm not sure if you're aware. When I referred to "overt racism" on these forums, here is what I am talking about:

Quote from: AlathonI thought I was quite clear the first time, but I'll gladly spell it out.

1.  Do you think America is and should be a nation led by white people for white people?
Is? No.  Should be? Yes.

2.  Do you think it's wrong for white people to have children with non-white people?
With Blacks, Africans, Aborigines, Mestizos, and semites, yes.  It's marrying down in every way that truly matters.  I guess some of it is eugenic, to judge by the sort of white women typically seen with mulatto babies, but it's still sad.

With the northern Asian peoples, it's more like marrying sideways, so it's a judgement call.  Some limited amount of intermarriage can be healthy, as a hedge against consanguinity and to acquire beneficial genetic mutations.  Couples should consider seriously the cultural challenges they take on by having two very different family trees to work with and sometimes appease.

For others (Inuit, Amerindian, south-Asian, Persian, etc..) judgement call, but they are not peers in achievement or intellect.

3.  Do you think Jews secretly conspire to cause America to go to war, while controlling the finance and entertainment industry?
No, there's nothing secret about it.  AIPAC operates openly.  The ADL operates openly.  America's warmongering in the middle east, and the deplatforming of those who criticize jews, have not been secret.

And I agree that far-left racism exists as well. As I said, both can exist at the same time.


Real classy sharing that, without stating that it's written by someone who was immediately banned for racism. Especially since this is in a public thread, and that's in a members-only thread so people could assume that's acceptable behavior here.

Pundit, I'm sorry if that crossed a line -- but I did explicitly say that they were banned. My words - quoted and now put in bold above - were "we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon".

TheGwyrigons in reply suggest that he was doubtful about my claim of "overt racism", so I posted back to show him what I was talking about.

Mistwell

#116
Quote from: Brad on February 15, 2023, 05:36:57 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 15, 2023, 04:56:23 PM
You can call it a pony if you want I was making the point that this had nothing to do with saying ANYTHING about consumers of WOTC products and it just has to do with a very small department of guys working at WOTC.

I've noticed this sort of posting style on this and other forums I frequent...someone comes to an obvious conclusion about what was said, on video, and a shill will appear and say something of the effect of, "That's not what they meant! Don't believe your eyes/ears!" Interesting.

Fortunately I have proof supporting my position and you don't.

Treantmonk is coming out with a great video with actual full context clips of these quotes that's still short enough for people to watch (on Patreon now but public in a couple days). Kyle's position is so utterly, completely clear to be not about the consumers that anyone honest who watches the full quote will know you're either lying or misinformed in your position. It's not a shill to say "this is what he said" it's just the truth. And if the truth bothers you, go write your fan fiction about WOTC.

Now you can think he's lying, and that's totally fair. But to claim what he says is what you're claiming he says, that part is just plain false. If you believe your eyes and ears, then he's very VERY clearly talking about his management team. There is no doubt or question about that. No reasonable person can watch the actual video in context and come away thinking he SAID it's about the consumers that cannot leave fast enough. To get there, you have to assume he's lying.

[And while we're talking for a moment I owe you an apology for an earlier accusation which I was badly mistaken about. I can't send it to you because you have PMs blocked, and if you want me to make it here publicly I am fine doing that, but I wanted you to know I was wrong and you were right and I am sorry and feel like shit for making that accusation about you which was false. I had you mixed up with someone else here but that's my recklessness in not checking]

Mistwell

Quote from: jhkim on February 15, 2023, 05:52:56 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 15, 2023, 04:56:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 09, 2023, 02:16:06 AM
In case you didn't get it that's sarcasm, not only he WAS talking about the player base, but your defense of the racist and sexist fuck doesn't make things any better.

You can call it a pony if you want I was making the point that this had nothing to do with saying ANYTHING about consumers of WOTC products and it just has to do with a very small department of guys working at WOTC.

I posted the transcript in the other thread. Here it is again:

QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?

Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.

These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.

(#1) Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.

(#2) And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.

(#3) And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.

And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.

I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.

I added in bold markers for sections #1, #2, and #3.

In #1, he's admitting that the D&D management is 100% white male, but he is claiming that the current player base is less than majority white male (meaning under 50%).

In #2, he's saying that his target is for the management to look like the current player base. I presume this means having similar race/gender demographics, which would mean less than 50% white male.

In #3, he says that "guys like him" can't leave soon enough.

-----

I read it as him talking about the D&D management - reiterating his previous points. That was the question asked of him, and what he had been talking about. But one can make of it what one wills.

I don't believe him, but I think he was trying to explain why D&D management is 100% white male - and why he claims that is going to change.

There is even more than just those three points if you have the full clip but yes, he's obviously talking about his small management team and anyone honest knows that immediately if they're actually watching what he said.

But it doesn't match with people's anti-woke agenda, so people twist it here and then make outrageous claims like Brad just did that what was actually said is the opposite of what was said and everyone except a shill knows that....despite reality not in any way matching that claim.

I mean Brad, and you, can call Kyle a liar sure. But at least admit what he said.

GeekyBugle

Quote from: Mistwell on February 16, 2023, 11:44:17 AM

There is even more than just those three points if you have the full clip but yes, he's obviously talking about his small management team and anyone honest knows that immediately if they're actually watching what he said.

But it doesn't match with people's anti-woke agenda, so people twist it here and then make outrageous claims like Brad just did that what was actually said is the opposite of what was said and everyone except a shill knows that....despite reality not in any way matching that claim.

I mean Brad, and you, can call Kyle a liar sure. But at least admit what he said.

Corporation X big wig2: We discriminate by race and sex on hiring (something he admited on a different podcast)
Corporation X big wig2: In my view white straight men can't leave the workforce at Corporation X fast enough for this hobby.
People: That's fucking racist, sexist and it shows what Corporation X thinks/feels about their customers of said demographic.
Mistwell: He didn't said gamers should leave the hobby!

Dude, would you say that if they were racially discriminating against black people it would be a safe bet to assume they hate the black people that are customers of theirs?

By all means keep caping for the racist/sexist megacorporation.
Quote from: Rhedyn

Here is why this forum tends to be so stupid. Many people here think Joe Biden is "The Left", when he is actually Far Right and every US republican is just an idiot.

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."

― George Orwell

Grognard GM

Obi-Wan Wokobi: "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."

Luke: "A certain point of view?"

Obi-Wan Wokobi: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
I'm a middle aged guy with a lot of free time, looking for similar, to form a group for regular gaming. You should be chill, non-woke, and have time on your hands.

See below:

https://www.therpgsite.com/news-and-adverts/looking-to-form-a-group-of-people-with-lots-of-spare-time-for-regular-games/