Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.

On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:24:15 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.

On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.

At any given time, my tables most often run somewhere between 40% to 60% female.  There are outliers, but that's due to personal, anecdotal schedules than anything else.  When one of our lady players had a work conflict for several months, the ratio went down, naturally.  Same thing happens when a male player has a conflict.  I have occasionally run a session for all males or all females, and near as I can tell, it was luck of the schedule draw for that particular date. 

Of all the people with whom I have ever run a game (in the hundreds), I know of only 2 males and zero females that I can definitely say have ever participated in a table top RPG game discussion online of any kind.  There's a few more that I'm not sure about, all male.  Make of that what you will.  To me it mostly says that talking about TTRPG's online is a darn, narrow niche.

Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 12:05:33 PM

Quote from: tenbones on February 09, 2023, 11:55:27 AM
So I'm curious if these remarks have actually made anyone here decide to stop buying WotC products that formerly were WotC fans?

It strengthened my desire to disengage with WoTC and play non-WoTC games. I think I was pretty much a fan until ca 2018 even though their adventures were rarely good.

We'll see in the next few months.  I was already out.  I already told my players why I was out.  Some of them were still on the fence for other games they were in, but were definitely interested in what I had to say.  It takes most people several big shoves to finally quit entirely.  Maybe this shove will be the one that moves someone, or maybe it's the penultimate shove.  You never really know until someone gets to that point.

After all, there are different stages of "Done with WotC".  I stopped buying first.  Then I refused to run it.  Then I started telling people why and gave them an alternative.  Then I quit sugar-coating it.  It's kind of like going to Disney World. I don't discourage people from taking their small children, but I no longer play it up.  And I sure as hell ain't going back.

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:24:15 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.

On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.

Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 09, 2023, 12:36:12 PMAt any given time, my tables most often run somewhere between 40% to 60% female.  There are outliers, but that's due to personal, anecdotal schedules than anything else.  When one of our lady players had a work conflict for several months, the ratio went down, naturally.  Same thing happens when a male player has a conflict.  I have occasionally run a session for all males or all females, and near as I can tell, it was luck of the schedule draw for that particular date.

What are you running, over what time period, and is there anything unusual about your area?

I see people who say they have female heavy, even all female groups, but I roleplayed for decades, at clubs, before I even saw a female player that wasn't a wife or girlfriend. The stereotype of the sausage party gaming groups didn't pop out randomly out of no-where, as far as I can tell female gamers have been, not unicorns, but let's say white tigers, up until say a decade ago. With an uptick from 5E.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:45:04 PM

Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?

About 80% of the women that played in my games played whatever I was running at the time, and had no prior experience with RPGs whatsoever before joining.  Of the the remainder, most had some small experience trying some version of D&D, often B/X or AD&D.  The all female sessions where usually Fantasy Hero, played in a way that was practically identical to my college, all male Champions sessions.  I've never had a storygamer in our group at all (unless you count a few session of Burning Wheel we tried), never had a World of Darkness anything except for a few players at convention games I ran, and the only players I have that started with 5E are the ones that were so young that 5E was what we were running when they were old enough to play.

If you recruit non gamers to become gamers, you can avoid a lot of the usual patterns.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:45:04 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:24:15 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.

On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.

Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?

In recent memory within the past 5 years. Or do you mean were they tourists who dropped in for a few sessions and then took off? Some, yes, but not more remarkable than the guys who did the same thing. I've never seen a story game table in the wild. Sometimes we bump up against 5e tables in public and the ratio of women is pretty much the same.

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 09, 2023, 12:53:41 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:45:04 PM

Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?

About 80% of the women that played in my games played whatever I was running at the time, and had no prior experience with RPGs whatsoever before joining.  Of the the remainder, most had some small experience trying some version of D&D, often B/X or AD&D.  The all female sessions where usually Fantasy Hero, played in a way that was practically identical to my college, all male Champions sessions.  I've never had a storygamer in our group at all (unless you count a few session of Burning Wheel we tried), never had a World of Darkness anything except for a few players at convention games I ran, and the only players I have that started with 5E are the ones that were so young that 5E was what we were running when they were old enough to play.

If you recruit non gamers to become gamers, you can avoid a lot of the usual patterns.

Since this is a good source of data...

You say most of them had never played before? What percentage came looking for 5E because of Critical Role or some such, and you were there to redirect them with a promise of "it's like 5E but better?"

EDIT: Oh, and are you at a club and these women turn up and join in, or are you recruiting female friends and relatives?

EDIT FOR CLARITY:rytrasmi puts his ladies within the last 5 years, thus solidly within the D&D fad period, when it became cool to be a nerd.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:06:40 PM
rytrasmi puts his ladies as solidly within the D&D fad period, when it became cool to be a nerd.

Say what? What makes you draw this conclusion?

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 01:12:42 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:06:40 PM
rytrasmi puts his ladies as solidly within the D&D fad period, when it became cool to be a nerd.

Say what? What makes you draw this conclusion?

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:59:56 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:45:04 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:24:15 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.

On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.

Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?

In recent memory within the past 5 years. Or do you mean were they tourists who dropped in for a few sessions and then took off? Some, yes, but not more remarkable than the guys who did the same thing. I've never seen a story game table in the wild. Sometimes we bump up against 5e tables in public and the ratio of women is pretty much the same.

5E was released 8 years ago. Critical Role began 7 years ago. Ergo 5 years ago was well within the fad.

Stranger Things is 6 years old, and Big Bang Theory older still, if you want to include them in the fad.

My wording of your data was imprecise due to being conversational, rather than any attempt to misrepresent you. I'll edit my post to be clear, as looking back I can understand the room for misunderstanding.

Game discussion boards like this skew vastly more male than the general hobby. Social media discussion sites a bit less so. Mind you very few of my players of either sex would ever post about D&D stuff in public. At most a bit on Facebook.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:23:53 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 01:12:42 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:06:40 PM
rytrasmi puts his ladies as solidly within the D&D fad period, when it became cool to be a nerd.

Say what? What makes you draw this conclusion?

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:59:56 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:45:04 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:24:15 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.

On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.

Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?

In recent memory within the past 5 years. Or do you mean were they tourists who dropped in for a few sessions and then took off? Some, yes, but not more remarkable than the guys who did the same thing. I've never seen a story game table in the wild. Sometimes we bump up against 5e tables in public and the ratio of women is pretty much the same.

5E was released 8 years ago. Critical Role began 7 years ago. Ergo 5 years ago was well within the fad.

Stranger Things is 6 years old, and Big Bang Theory older still, if you want to include them in the fad.

My wording of your data was imprecise due to being conversational, rather than any attempt to misrepresent you. I'll edit my post to be clear, as looking back I can understand the room for misunderstanding.

Oh, I see. Well, I've only been involved in public games in the past 5 maybe 6 years, so that's the relevant data that I have and that's what I shared. Prior to that it was home/friend group games only, which is much more subjective and thus much less useful in trying to draw conclusions about demographics of the hobby.

I started this hobby at the height of the fad in the 80s when the cartoon was on TV and when my mother (a woman I assure you) bought us a red box at a toy store. If people join a hobby during a fad, so what?

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 01:35:43 PMI started this hobby at the height of the fad in the 80s when the cartoon was on TV and when my mother (a woman I assure you) bought us a red box at a toy store. If people join a hobby during a fad, so what?

Just to be clear, I don't believe in cooties I have a mom too, and a wife. I've even spoken to a woman or two in the wild! Every woman I've ever gamed with or seen gaming, with the notable exception of an autistic woman, were HEAVILLY in to the role part of roleplaying, and the mechanics were very much secondary, even an annoyance. YMMV.

I'd argue that the 80's surge was the hobby being advertised by movie and T.V. appearances, and bringing in people with a genuine desire for the hobby.

I'd argue that the current crop is due to a fad where the bubble will burst fairly soon, and probably 90% of new players will quit outright, or bring the game out at a party every few years for ironic fun.

Only time will prove me right or wrong.

I believe the claim being made (implied, whatever) is that when women come into role-playing game hobbies, they do so during fad cycles. In other words, they only come in when it is popular, and therefore socially acceptable to engage.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:47:37 PM

Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 01:35:43 PMI started this hobby at the height of the fad in the 80s when the cartoon was on TV and when my mother (a woman I assure you) bought us a red box at a toy store. If people join a hobby during a fad, so what?

Just to be clear, I don't believe in cooties I have a mom too, and a wife. I've even spoken to a woman or two in the wild! Every woman I've ever gamed with or seen gaming, with the notable exception of an autistic woman, were HEAVILLY in to the role part of roleplaying, and the mechanics were very much secondary, even an annoyance. YMMV.

I'd argue that the 80's surge was the hobby being advertised by movie and T.V. appearances, and bringing in people with a genuine desire for the hobby.

I'd argue that the current crop is due to a fad where the bubble will burst fairly soon, and probably 90% of new players will quit outright, or bring the game out at a party every few years for ironic fun.

Only time will prove me right or wrong.

You might be right and yeah time will tell. When something experiences a boost in popularity, there's a lot of churn. So we might not see a sudden 90% drop. Instead we might see a high rate of attrition over a several years.

You also might be right about mechanics vs role play, generally speaking. The system tweakers tend to be men, in my experience. However, within my current groups, the player & GM who stands out as having the most system knowledge and mastery (at least of the games we play) is a woman. I'm not preaching some kumbaya egalitarian utopia among the sexes, this is just my current experience.