Kyle Brink, number 2 man at Wizards and head of D&D, has just declared that white people "cannot leave the (D&D) hobby quick enough".
Will Hasbro/Wizards support his position against gamers?
#dnd #dnd5e #hasbro #OneDnD #DnDBeyond#ttrpg #osr
Hasbro will say nothing do nothing, they won't fire him, apologize or anything, it's politically acceptable to hate on white dudes.
I, for one, agree with him.
White men should leave DnD. Let's see how well their sales are after that.
I agree, that we can't leave from supporting their brand fast enough.
I'll do whatever I want to with what I already own of theirs, but I don't want to buy WOTC products anymore. I can't leave from that fast enough.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 11:36:42 PM
Hasbro will say nothing do nothing, they won't fire him, apologize or anything, it's politically acceptable to hate on white dudes.
^100%^
But it will make them squirm for a week or so.
Especially since even their best 'out of context' defense is that he was just talking about purging whites from creative and dev positions.
Which they struggle to say anything about when that is pointed out.
It's fun to watch them dance.
Leadership roles may have, what, half a dozen positions?
So in a country that is still majority white, 6 white guys happened to be the best for the job is somehow proof that everything is racist, and we need a shake up.
I'll put a thousand dollars down on the barrel. If you can get a progressive to go to a business that happens to have 6 women/black people/Asians as leadership, and have the progressive tell them they're racist/sexist and need a few white guys.
I think my money is safe.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Leadership roles may have, what, half a dozen positions?
So in a country that is still majority white, 6 white guys happened to be the best for the job is somehow proof that everything is racist, and we need a shake up.
I'll put a thousand dollars down on the barrel. If you can get a progressive to go to a business that happens to have 6 women/black people/Asians as leadership, and have the progressive tell them they're racist/sexist and need a few white guys.
I think my money is safe.
D.I.E. only ever cuts one way my dude.
As you have read you can't be racist against white people, sexist against men or phobic against straights/gays (if you're a pronoun wearer).
Yes, the people at Hasbro are evil, but they're also stupid. The OGL debacle clearly demonstrated that lots of people are finally mentally ready to at least partially boycott Hasbro, and leave for greener pastures.....by giving other games a chance.
People don't need Hasbro's brand identity to create, market, and play in dungeon delving and orc-bashing TTRPGs. All this OGL wankery made this completely obvious. Let them have their precious digital ghetto. It doesn't matter how much ESG investment capital Hasbro receives, if tons of people just boycott them.
Play other TTRPGs. Buy other TTRPGs. You don't need Hasbro's IP to roll a d20, and throw a pie in an orc's face.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Leadership roles may have, what, half a dozen positions?
So in a country that is still majority white, 6 white guys happened to be the best for the job is somehow proof that everything is racist, and we need a shake up.
I'll put a thousand dollars down on the barrel. If you can get a progressive to go to a business that happens to have 6 women/black people/Asians as leadership, and have the progressive tell them they're racist/sexist and need a few white guys.
I think my money is safe.
The odds of seeing a black person anywhere near their Renton headquarters is about 1 in 140.
Maybe they should move to a more diverse community.
One where "marginalized" people can afford to live and work.
Good vid.
Quote from: DocJones on February 08, 2023, 07:28:51 PM
The odds of seeing a black person anywhere near their Renton headquarters is about 1 in 140.
Maybe they should move to a more diverse community.
One where "marginalized" people can afford to live and work.
Where are you getting that? From the census data I see, the city of Renton is 48% white, 24% Asian, 11% mixed race, and 8% black. (Also 15% Hispanic or Latino of all races.)
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/rentoncitywashington
I don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed. Here on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon. And that's just people who are open about it. If I just look at the current news, I see discrimination lawsuits for supervisor behavior of "jokes" like "What's the best way to see a black man? At the end of a scope." There are also lawsuits over discrimination against whites, which exists as well. It's not like one implies that the other can't exist anywhere.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 07, 2023, 11:36:42 PM
Hasbro will say nothing do nothing, they won't fire him, apologize or anything, it's politically acceptable to hate on white dudes.
Absolutely! White dudes are human pinatas for the big corps. and the media.
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PMI don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed.
That's not even disingenuous, it's an outright lie.
I said systemic white racism, and systemic sexism, don't exist any more, and haven't in a half century. Christ, companies are falling over themselves to insert every minority they can, as fast as they can. Not the actions of an oppressive cracker society.
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PMHere on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon.
Yet people who support BLM, an organization connected to racism, murders, massive property destruction, fraud and tax evasion are still members.
You're lucky people on the Right don't hold the same guilt-by-association rules as the Left.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 09:39:24 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PMI don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed.
That's not even disingenuous, it's an outright lie.
I said systemic white racism, and systemic sexism, don't exist any more, and haven't in a half century. Christ, companies are falling over themselves to insert every minority they can, as fast as they can. Not the actions of an oppressive cracker society.
I don't intend to misrepresent you. Here was the exchange:
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 07:20:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM
I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.
Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.
Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.
You need to build a time machine that can go back at least 50 years to find the systemic -isms in society that your brain fever-dreams still exist.
Your godless-religion looks at gaps naturally formed from demographics and natural group preferences, and through it's twisted kaleidoscope it can only see oppression and -isms.
How am I supposed to interpret this? All I said that it was
possible that WotC discriminated, and you shot back that I had to go back 50+ years.
He didn't say leave "the hobby" he was talking about WOTC higher up design positions.
But as usual we get "6 positions" turned into "EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!! BURN IT ALL DOWN THEY HATE US ALL!!!!!!!!"
Quote from: Mistwell on February 08, 2023, 11:34:15 PM
He didn't say leave "the hobby" he was talking about WOTC higher up design positions.
But as usual we get "6 positions" turned into "EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!! BURN IT ALL DOWN THEY HATE US ALL!!!!!!!!"
He was asked about diversity. He answered first on diversity. THEN he switched to the player base being white and immediately stated he can't wait for people like him to be gone, then he went back to diversity again after making his racist statement.
So now ask yourself, what is better? An exec at his company breaking his companies race policy by insulting white customers OR breaking his companies HR policy for publicly stating he wants to violate Title IX? Any white male who interviewed at D&D and had Kyle Brink involved in any part of the hiring process can now sue D&D for violating their civil rights if D&D hired anyone but a white male.
I get carrying water for D&D, but man you got a water tower on your back on this one.
The sooner Blacks leave professional sports, the better things will be.
The sooner Jews leave the banking and entertainment industries, the better things will be.
Now I'll sit back and wait for the usual suspects (i.e., those covering for WOTC here) to say the two statements above are perfectly acceptable because the fact that blacks dominate professional sports and Jews dominate Hollywood and banking MUST mean that they are gatekeeping and intentionally discriminating against everyone not in their own group. Couldn't possibly be any other reason.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 08, 2023, 11:54:38 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 08, 2023, 11:34:15 PM
He didn't say leave "the hobby" he was talking about WOTC higher up design positions.
But as usual we get "6 positions" turned into "EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!! BURN IT ALL DOWN THEY HATE US ALL!!!!!!!!"
He was asked about diversity. He answered first on diversity. THEN he switched to the player base being white and immediately stated he can't wait for people like him to be gone, then he went back to diversity again after making his racist statement.
So now ask yourself, what is better? An exec at his company breaking his companies race policy by insulting white customers OR breaking his companies HR policy for publicly stating he wants to violate Title IX? Any white male who interviewed at D&D and had Kyle Brink involved in any part of the hiring process can now sue D&D for violating their civil rights if D&D hired anyone but a white male.
I get carrying water for D&D, but man you got a water tower on your back on this one.
He said (if you listen to the whole friggen thing rather than a summary) they want a diverse pool to choose from, and then once thy have that pool, they choose the best candidate. Nothing illegal about that, and he was VERY clear in not talking about the hobby players themselves.
The confusion might be there are TWO interviews now with the guy, talking about similar topics.
But hey, you go on with the "discredit anyone who interferes with our spin" tactics mang. It's what works for threads like this and I am sure you will get lots of backpats and attaboys.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 08, 2023, 11:34:15 PM
He didn't say leave "the hobby" he was talking about WOTC higher up design positions.
But as usual we get "6 positions" turned into "EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!! BURN IT ALL DOWN THEY HATE US ALL!!!!!!!!"
Yeah guys, he was "ONLY" talking about discriminating against white men in Wotzi hiring because they're white men, where's the racism/sexism in that?
In case you didn't get it that's sarcasm, not only he WAS talking about the player base, but your defense of the racist and sexist fuck doesn't make things any better.
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 10:35:18 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 09:39:24 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PMI don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed.
That's not even disingenuous, it's an outright lie.
I said systemic white racism, and systemic sexism, don't exist any more, and haven't in a half century. Christ, companies are falling over themselves to insert every minority they can, as fast as they can. Not the actions of an oppressive cracker society.
I don't intend to misrepresent you. Here was the exchange:
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 07, 2023, 07:20:30 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 07, 2023, 06:34:51 PM
I don't think there should be society-wide fixes, but specific entities that discriminate should be legally and ethically liable. This is true legally in the U.S. If a company is found guilty of workplace discrimination, then they have to make restitution to the parties that were affected by the discrimination. The court may also order workplace changes to ensure that such discrimination does not happen again.
Even if it doesn't go through a lawsuit, the ethical principle is still there. If a thief steals money, then they should be made to give the money back. They shouldn't be told to keep the money but sternly warned not to steal again.
Again, I'm not claiming that WotC did discriminate -- but if they did, then there should be consequences.
You need to build a time machine that can go back at least 50 years to find the systemic -isms in society that your brain fever-dreams still exist.
Your godless-religion looks at gaps naturally formed from demographics and natural group preferences, and through it's twisted kaleidoscope it can only see oppression and -isms.
How am I supposed to interpret this? All I said that it was possible that WotC discriminated, and you shot back that I had to go back 50+ years.
So Grognard GM WAS talking about systemic isms, you only have proven him right that you're lying about what he said dude.
The forum Marxists are circling the wagons like clockwork...
Do we have any female forum members here? I'm not aware of any. Must be because all of us -- including the left-wingers here -- despise women and are deliberately keeping them from participating. I recommend that certain male members (the WOTC defenders specifically) gracefully resign and pick some woman in their lives to take their place here. Male oppressors like them can't leave the site fast enough. Time we got some gender diversity around here. Hell, the women don't even have to like RPGs or have played a game in their lives! The diversity is what's important here, not how much members can contribute or how much personal interest they have in the subject.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 09, 2023, 01:19:35 AMHe said (if you listen to the whole friggen thing rather than a summary) they want a diverse pool to choose from, and then once thy have that pool, they choose the best candidate. Nothing illegal about that, and he was VERY clear in not talking about the hobby players themselves.
Whether he's talking about a "diverse pool to choose from" or he's talking about a diverse player base, neither of those things require white people to leave the hobby. So, no matter how you interpret what he said, it was an anti white statement.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 09:39:24 PMI said systemic white racism, and systemic sexism, don't exist any more, and haven't in a half century. Christ, companies are falling over themselves to insert every minority they can, as fast as they can. Not the actions of an oppressive cracker society.
True, though systemic racism and sexism certainly do exist, probably in a stronger form now than they have in decades. Anti-white racism and anti-male sexism. It's not just WotC that makes anti-white and/or anti-male statements. Almost all big corporations say that kind of thing and openly say that they are trying to hire more "diversity" and fewer whites and/or males, which is essentially the same thing. Colleges and universities openly admit to racial and sex discrimination in admissions and scholarships. The US government also openly discriminates, such as directing Covid funds to go towards minorities instead of whites, for a recent example.
If the corporations, universities, and government are all encouraging and engaging in anti-white discrimination and racism, that is pretty damn systemic.
Quote from: I on February 09, 2023, 07:36:33 AM
Do we have any female forum members here? I'm not aware of any.
There are some.
Though there's nothing wrong with not having diversity. If some hobby, profession, or activity has certain demographics that are over or under represented, that's perfectly alright. Unless its white or male over-representation in which case it's proof of discrimination and evil.
Quote from: ShieldWife on February 09, 2023, 09:20:19 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 09:39:24 PMI said systemic white racism, and systemic sexism, don't exist any more, and haven't in a half century. Christ, companies are falling over themselves to insert every minority they can, as fast as they can. Not the actions of an oppressive cracker society.
True, though systemic racism and sexism certainly do exist, probably in a stronger form now than they have in decades. Anti-white racism and anti-male sexism. It's not just WotC that makes anti-white and/or anti-male statements. Almost all big corporations say that kind of thing and openly say that they are trying to hire more "diversity" and fewer whites and/or males, which is essentially the same thing. Colleges and universities openly admit to racial and sex discrimination in admissions and scholarships. The US government also openly discriminates, such as directing Covid funds to go towards minorities instead of whites, for a recent example.
If the corporations, universities, and government are all encouraging and engaging in anti-white discrimination and racism, that is pretty damn systemic.
Technically, systemic racism is discrimination by race that is codified into law; so while I agree that there is some systemic racism left in the US, the discriminatory hiring practices at Wizards and other big companies aren't it. Those are just plain garden-variety racism. Also directing COVID funds into minority neighbourhoods (or, in the past, directing housing subsidies preferentially to majority-white neighbourhoods) isn't systemic racism, just plain racism. The Jim Crow laws
were systemic racism, and Affirmative Action laws
are systemic racism. I'm not aware of anything else that still stands in the law books in 2023, though.
QuoteTechnically, systemic racism is discrimination by race that is codified into law;
I always thought those using "systemic racism" moniker meant it's presence in social structures - not necessarily legal ones.
Quote from: Wrath of God on February 09, 2023, 10:41:38 AM
I always thought those using "systemic racism" moniker meant it's presence in social structures - not necessarily legal ones.
Sure, that's how it's colloquially perceived; but the term was coined to describe racism by the (legal) system, or as Wiki puts it,
"is a form of racism that is embedded in the laws and regulations of a society or an organization." There is a related concept, "societal racism," which again Wiki defines as
"...racism based on a set of institutional, historical, cultural and interpersonal practices within a society that places one or more social or ethnic groups in a better position to succeed and disadvantages other groups so that disparities develop between the groups," which is probably what most people mean when they talk about "systemic racism."
Why does any of this matter? Because systemic racism is easy to identify and relatively straightforward to combat (if sometimes difficult due to the need for legislative power to overturn existing laws); societal racism, on the other hand, is a much more nebulous concept which is hard to delimit, and much harder to draft an effective strategy to tackle it. It may be that we will never be able to realistically eliminate all forms of societal racism in this Fallen Earth, but eliminating racial and sexual discrimination from our legal codes is a much simpler (and eminently attainable!) goal.
So I'm curious if these remarks have actually made anyone here decide to stop buying WotC products that formerly were WotC fans?
Quote from: tenbones on February 09, 2023, 11:55:27 AM
So I'm curious if these remarks have actually made anyone here decide to stop buying WotC products that formerly were WotC fans?
It strengthened my desire to disengage with WoTC and play non-WoTC games. I think I was pretty much a fan until ca 2018 even though their adventures were rarely good.
Quote from: I on February 09, 2023, 07:36:33 AM
Do we have any female forum members here? I'm not aware of any.
ShieldWife, and if BoxCrayonTales isn't female I'll eat my hat. Apart from that I don't personally know of any.
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.
I know stuff like 5E has managed to substantially up the number of women and Western-minorities (although still a blip, they're deluding themselves) but I put it to you (dear reader) that this has only been done by becoming a lifestyle brand fad
and reducing mechanical complexity. Being maths heavy and very complex has always been a complaint from women wanting in to the hobby. If you were a woman and you didn't mind those things, you were an outlier, and already in the hobby having fun.
It's a matter of how much we want to strip down complexity to draw in a new female audience, and where's the point where the hobby changes so much that the original fans don't want to be part of it?
As for getting more Western-minority players, that's never been a problem of exclusion. I'm sure any black guys here can chime in with how aggressively the black community polices its own for 'acting White.' How is pretending to be an Elf 'acting White?' It just is, stay in your lane!
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.
On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:24:15 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.
On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.
At any given time, my tables most often run somewhere between 40% to 60% female. There are outliers, but that's due to personal, anecdotal schedules than anything else. When one of our lady players had a work conflict for several months, the ratio went down, naturally. Same thing happens when a male player has a conflict. I have occasionally run a session for all males or all females, and near as I can tell, it was luck of the schedule draw for that particular date.
Of all the people with whom I have ever run a game (in the hundreds), I know of only 2 males and zero females that I can definitely say have ever participated in a table top RPG game discussion online of any kind. There's a few more that I'm not sure about, all male. Make of that what you will. To me it mostly says that talking about TTRPG's online is a darn, narrow niche.
Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 12:05:33 PM
Quote from: tenbones on February 09, 2023, 11:55:27 AM
So I'm curious if these remarks have actually made anyone here decide to stop buying WotC products that formerly were WotC fans?
It strengthened my desire to disengage with WoTC and play non-WoTC games. I think I was pretty much a fan until ca 2018 even though their adventures were rarely good.
We'll see in the next few months. I was already out. I already told my players why I was out. Some of them were still on the fence for other games they were in, but were definitely interested in what I had to say. It takes most people several big shoves to finally quit entirely. Maybe this shove will be the one that moves someone, or maybe it's the penultimate shove. You never really know until someone gets to that point.
After all, there are different stages of "Done with WotC". I stopped buying first. Then I refused to run it. Then I started telling people why and gave them an alternative. Then I quit sugar-coating it. It's kind of like going to Disney World. I don't discourage people from taking their small children, but I no longer play it up. And I sure as hell ain't going back.
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:24:15 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.
On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.
Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 09, 2023, 12:36:12 PMAt any given time, my tables most often run somewhere between 40% to 60% female. There are outliers, but that's due to personal, anecdotal schedules than anything else. When one of our lady players had a work conflict for several months, the ratio went down, naturally. Same thing happens when a male player has a conflict. I have occasionally run a session for all males or all females, and near as I can tell, it was luck of the schedule draw for that particular date.
What are you running, over what time period, and is there anything unusual about your area?
I see people who say they have female heavy, even all female groups, but I roleplayed for decades, at clubs, before I even saw a female player that wasn't a wife or girlfriend. The stereotype of the sausage party gaming groups didn't pop out randomly out of no-where, as far as I can tell female gamers have been, not unicorns, but let's say white tigers, up until say a decade ago. With an uptick from 5E.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:45:04 PM
Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?
About 80% of the women that played in my games played whatever I was running at the time, and had no prior experience with RPGs whatsoever before joining. Of the the remainder, most had some small experience trying some version of D&D, often B/X or AD&D. The all female sessions where usually Fantasy Hero, played in a way that was practically identical to my college, all male Champions sessions. I've never had a storygamer in our group at all (unless you count a few session of Burning Wheel we tried), never had a World of Darkness anything except for a few players at convention games I ran, and the only players I have that started with 5E are the ones that were so young that 5E was what we were running when they were old enough to play.
If you recruit non gamers to become gamers, you can avoid a lot of the usual patterns.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:45:04 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:24:15 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.
On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.
Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?
In recent memory within the past 5 years. Or do you mean were they tourists who dropped in for a few sessions and then took off? Some, yes, but not more remarkable than the guys who did the same thing. I've never seen a story game table in the wild. Sometimes we bump up against 5e tables in public and the ratio of women is pretty much the same.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 09, 2023, 12:53:41 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:45:04 PM
Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?
About 80% of the women that played in my games played whatever I was running at the time, and had no prior experience with RPGs whatsoever before joining. Of the the remainder, most had some small experience trying some version of D&D, often B/X or AD&D. The all female sessions where usually Fantasy Hero, played in a way that was practically identical to my college, all male Champions sessions. I've never had a storygamer in our group at all (unless you count a few session of Burning Wheel we tried), never had a World of Darkness anything except for a few players at convention games I ran, and the only players I have that started with 5E are the ones that were so young that 5E was what we were running when they were old enough to play.
If you recruit non gamers to become gamers, you can avoid a lot of the usual patterns.
Since this is a good source of data...
You say most of them had never played before? What percentage came looking for 5E because of Critical Role or some such, and you were there to redirect them with a promise of "it's like 5E but better?"
EDIT: Oh, and are you at a club and these women turn up and join in, or are you recruiting female friends and relatives?
EDIT FOR CLARITY:
rytrasmi puts his ladies within the last 5 years, thus solidly within the D&D fad period, when it became cool to be a nerd.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:06:40 PM
rytrasmi puts his ladies as solidly within the D&D fad period, when it became cool to be a nerd.
Say what? What makes you draw this conclusion?
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 01:12:42 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:06:40 PM
rytrasmi puts his ladies as solidly within the D&D fad period, when it became cool to be a nerd.
Say what? What makes you draw this conclusion?
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:59:56 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:45:04 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:24:15 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.
On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.
Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?
In recent memory within the past 5 years. Or do you mean were they tourists who dropped in for a few sessions and then took off? Some, yes, but not more remarkable than the guys who did the same thing. I've never seen a story game table in the wild. Sometimes we bump up against 5e tables in public and the ratio of women is pretty much the same.
5E was released 8 years ago. Critical Role began 7 years ago. Ergo 5 years ago was well within the fad.
Stranger Things is 6 years old, and Big Bang Theory older still, if you want to include them in the fad.
My wording of your data was imprecise due to being conversational, rather than any attempt to misrepresent you. I'll edit my post to be clear, as looking back I can understand the room for misunderstanding.
Game discussion boards like this skew vastly more male than the general hobby. Social media discussion sites a bit less so. Mind you very few of my players of either sex would ever post about D&D stuff in public. At most a bit on Facebook.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:23:53 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 01:12:42 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:06:40 PM
rytrasmi puts his ladies as solidly within the D&D fad period, when it became cool to be a nerd.
Say what? What makes you draw this conclusion?
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:59:56 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:45:04 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 12:24:15 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.
On average over the whole population maybe. In my own experience, running and playing OSR and other games (not brand name D&D) in person, the tables have consistently been about 30-50% women and at one outlier table I was the only guy. Again, in person, large city. You're probably correct about the RPG population as a whole, but there is significant variance.
Which time period are you talking, and how many of the women were 5E or Storygame players giving your game a try?
In recent memory within the past 5 years. Or do you mean were they tourists who dropped in for a few sessions and then took off? Some, yes, but not more remarkable than the guys who did the same thing. I've never seen a story game table in the wild. Sometimes we bump up against 5e tables in public and the ratio of women is pretty much the same.
5E was released 8 years ago. Critical Role began 7 years ago. Ergo 5 years ago was well within the fad.
Stranger Things is 6 years old, and Big Bang Theory older still, if you want to include them in the fad.
My wording of your data was imprecise due to being conversational, rather than any attempt to misrepresent you. I'll edit my post to be clear, as looking back I can understand the room for misunderstanding.
Oh, I see. Well, I've only been involved in public games in the past 5 maybe 6 years, so that's the relevant data that I have and that's what I shared. Prior to that it was home/friend group games only, which is much more subjective and thus much less useful in trying to draw conclusions about demographics of the hobby.
I started this hobby at the height of the fad in the 80s when the cartoon was on TV and when my mother (a woman I assure you) bought us a red box at a toy store. If people join a hobby during a fad, so what?
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 01:35:43 PMI started this hobby at the height of the fad in the 80s when the cartoon was on TV and when my mother (a woman I assure you) bought us a red box at a toy store. If people join a hobby during a fad, so what?
Just to be clear, I don't believe in cooties :P I have a mom too, and a wife. I've even spoken to a woman or two in the wild! Every woman I've ever gamed with or seen gaming, with the notable exception of an autistic woman, were HEAVILLY in to the role part of roleplaying, and the mechanics were very much secondary, even an annoyance. YMMV.
I'd argue that the 80's surge was the hobby being
advertised by movie and T.V. appearances, and bringing in people with a genuine desire for the hobby.
I'd argue that the current crop is due to a
fad where the bubble will burst fairly soon, and probably 90% of new players will quit outright, or bring the game out at a party every few years for ironic fun.
Only time will prove me right or wrong.
I believe the claim being made (implied, whatever) is that when women come into role-playing game hobbies, they do so during fad cycles. In other words, they only come in when it is popular, and therefore socially acceptable to engage.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:47:37 PM
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 09, 2023, 01:35:43 PMI started this hobby at the height of the fad in the 80s when the cartoon was on TV and when my mother (a woman I assure you) bought us a red box at a toy store. If people join a hobby during a fad, so what?
Just to be clear, I don't believe in cooties :P I have a mom too, and a wife. I've even spoken to a woman or two in the wild! Every woman I've ever gamed with or seen gaming, with the notable exception of an autistic woman, were HEAVILLY in to the role part of roleplaying, and the mechanics were very much secondary, even an annoyance. YMMV.
I'd argue that the 80's surge was the hobby being advertised by movie and T.V. appearances, and bringing in people with a genuine desire for the hobby.
I'd argue that the current crop is due to a fad where the bubble will burst fairly soon, and probably 90% of new players will quit outright, or bring the game out at a party every few years for ironic fun.
Only time will prove me right or wrong.
You might be right and yeah time will tell. When something experiences a boost in popularity, there's a lot of churn. So we might not see a sudden 90% drop. Instead we might see a high rate of attrition over a several years.
You also might be right about mechanics vs role play, generally speaking. The system tweakers tend to be men, in my experience. However, within my current groups, the player & GM who stands out as having the most system knowledge and mastery (at least of the games we play) is a woman. I'm not preaching some kumbaya egalitarian utopia among the sexes, this is just my current experience.
Quote from: Corolinth on February 09, 2023, 01:50:20 PM
I believe the claim being made (implied, whatever) is that when women come into role-playing game hobbies, they do so during fad cycles. In other words, they only come in when it is popular, and therefore socially acceptable to engage.
That's a big part of it, yes. As much as the narrative is men keeping women out of interests, women police themselves wwaayyy more than men police them. Statistically speaking, women are more agreeable and group orientated than men, so fear of social ostracism is very real. Traditionally, women who were part of the loser nerd gaming groups were unusually individualistic and contrary.
The other half of the contention is that, again statistically, men gravitate far more strongly towards statistics and obsessive hobbies than women. I don't think it's a coincidence that the peaks of games pushed as narrative experiences (Vampire in the 90's, Fate in the 00's, 5E lately) saw spikes in female participation.
Also modern tools like VTT's do a TON of the mathematics and notekeeping. Someone can play a class now without even really understanding how it works, and just be there for the community and acting aspects of roleplaying.
Disclaimer: Before the howls of outrage about someone's mom/sister/daughter/wife/gf having a doctorate in Mathematics, and running Rolemaster from memorized tables, that's why we have outliers. Also, plenty of men find maths tedious, and wouldn't paly RPG's if you had a gun to their heads.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:47:37 PM
Every woman I've ever gamed with or seen gaming, with the notable exception of an autistic woman, were HEAVILLY in to the role part of roleplaying, and the mechanics were very much secondary, even an annoyance. YMMV.
Heh, reminds me of my autistic female player. She roleplays well - albeit always pretty much the same scary gimlet-eyed character - but her real love is the number crunching & exploits, especially multi-classing. 4e was, unsurprisingly, her favourite game. She loved Pathfinder & was a bit disappointed she couldn't get us into PF 2e.
Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 02:42:17 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:47:37 PM
Every woman I've ever gamed with or seen gaming, with the notable exception of an autistic woman, were HEAVILLY in to the role part of roleplaying, and the mechanics were very much secondary, even an annoyance. YMMV.
Heh, reminds me of my autistic female player. She roleplays well - albeit always pretty much the same scary gimlet-eyed character - but her real love is the number crunching & exploits, especially multi-classing. 4e was, unsurprisingly, her favourite game. She loved Pathfinder & was a bit disappointed she couldn't get us into PF 2e.
Greetings!
Sounds like she is a great player, S'mon!
When I was a kid, my best friend at the time had introduced D&D to me. So, I had been a player for a few months when I decided to start DMing my own campaign. In the beginning, this was all even before AD&D. I had a boxed set, I think. The main rulebook was this kind of turquoise-blue softcover, with a dragon on the cover looking at you. The dragon was in a large chamber, laying amidst his treasures. Characters only went to 3rd Level. Maybe 4th. Anyhow, I had this book, a bag of dice, and a big box of Grenadier Miniatures that my mother had bought me. My mother had taken me to a local specialized hobby shop, called "Games People Play". They had all kinds of board games, miniatures, paints, books and stuff, like D&D.
So, one of my earliest campaigns--perhaps my first then, as DM, was playing D&D with my own mother and father. My father played a devout, righteous, crusader cleric. A priest that was part Father O'Malley and part King Longshanks, with a bit of Sir Galahad. Chainmail, flanged mace, a stout shield, a silver neck-chain and holy cross around his neck, and a well-worn, leather-bound copy of the Scriptures at his side. My father's character always had some Scriptural quotation or exhortation for the party. My father was very well-read, and enjoyed bringing various medieval elements into the game and his character's portrayal. My mother loved playing a mystical, furry barbarian. Chanting and praying to the elements and the savage gods, dressed in furs, and carrying a spear and a large battle-axe. She was always very much into her barbarian character, playing a violence-prone, materialistic, and suspicious, tribal savage. She was always eager to slaughter her enemies, and gather up whatever loot or valuables to be gained, whether such was gold, new weapons, jewelry, or new furs. Finding animals and new beasts was always fun for her as well, such as gaining a fierce war dog, or a happy donkey. She was also jealous and possessive, too. Such great fun playing with them! My friends would come over to play, and they also loved playing together with my parents. They thought my mother and father were so cool! *Laughing*
So, yeah. One of my first players of D&D in my campaigns was a woman, my mother. She was definitely into roleplaying too. She liked the drama and the fighting and the wondrous monsters, as well as more ordinary animals. The actual rules mechanics though? Far less of a priority or her. She trusted me or my father to make sure everything was fair and by the rules, her using the right dice or whatever. She was a fantastic player, and very fun!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 01:06:40 PM
Since this is a good source of data...
You say most of them had never played before? What percentage came looking for 5E because of Critical Role or some such, and you were there to redirect them with a promise of "it's like 5E but better?"
EDIT: Oh, and are you at a club and these women turn up and join in, or are you recruiting female friends and relatives?
EDIT FOR CLARITY:rytrasmi puts his ladies within the last 5 years, thus solidly within the D&D fad period, when it became cool to be a nerd.
TL;DR answer: It's a network effect. Recruit friends, relatives, and co-workers. They like it. They know someone that gets invited. And so on.
To answer your questions, first of all consider that for some people, I don't actually know what first piqued their interest. It never came up. In other cases, they may have been exposed to something RPG-related earlier, but my invitation was the first time they had to try it. I know for more of them than I don't know, but when we are talking hundreds of players, some it never came up, and some I haven't seen in 20+ years. So in all cases I'm only answering to the best of my knowledge. Though as a natural part of trying to help my recruitment, I have asked when I could.
That out of the way. I've been actively recruiting non-gamers as players since 1981. In those early days, it was rarely possible to recruit anyone female because we typically played all night, and in our neck of the woods, no parent was going to sign up for a bunch of coed teens staying up all night unsupervised, and no parent was interested enough to stay up all night to help us. So it was all guys for those sessions, because I was the only one running, and that was my potential pool of players. However, on a handful of occasions, I was able to run a game at school or some other public, daytime venue, and it was often more ladies than guys.
The usual reason cited for attending was to find out about it this thing they had heard the guys talking about but not had a chance to try yet. Post high school, I could invite anyone I wanted, and did. In college, we had a circle of guys in a guys-only dorm that played cards, board games, RPGs of several types, and even primitive video games together. That's was people that were interested and handy, and the only time I've spent serious time gaming with others that came with prior experience. IIRC, every single person in that circle had gamed prior to college, but I might be wrong about 1 or 2 of them that were older than me.
Mostly parallel to that I group, I started a group of all previously non-gamers, except 1 lady had played AD&D once (and not enjoyed it), and 1 lady had heard about it and wanted to try it. The rest were coming in completely unaware that it was even a thing.
By the time I was working, new invites were a combination of co-workers and a growing network of previous people in the groups. For example, we had a lot of spouses, male and female, try it out. The spouses weren't always interested. Sometimes, it was friend, of a friend, of a friend. When I worked for awhile in a different geographic region of the US, I started a new group of nothing but my wife and a bunch of co-workers. That was a case of a lot of us that all weren't from there, who didn't know anyone else there, and we did all kinds of things together. Me hosting a game was just another one on the list.
Sometimes I was running whatever was popular now--but critically this was not because I was running it to attract players, but rather was running it because it was the thing I wanted to run. I have
never run "the popular thing" to attract players, but have instead run my game, and let the attraction work itself out. Note that almost everything I have run has had house rules.
On a few occasions where I have run for small conventions, I would say that what typically happens is that 1 or 2 people in the game really enjoys what I am doing, while the rest do not. The ones that do not, that have bothered to tell me why, have usually cited my games being different that what they expected and/or were used to. So it's possible that the stereotypical D&D game is different enough from what I run to change the dynamic of attracting and keeping players. OTOH, I've noticed over the years that when it comes down to kicking doors in and kicking goblin butts, the ladies seems to be a tad more enthusiastic than the guys, on average.
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 09, 2023, 04:10:06 PMOTOH, I've noticed over the years that when it comes down to kicking doors in and kicking goblin butts, the ladies seems to be a tad more enthusiastic than the guys, on average.
As a tangent, I don't allow players to play the opposite sex. I know this statement is likely to summon outrage from some as iridescent as as a nuke going off, but I have my reasons.
In my experience, women tend to play male characters like swaggering murder-hobos, and men tend to make slutty characters. Anyone screaming in rage at this, you do you. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one player who has complained about this rule in decades (because he had a legit fetish for playing huge, cartoonishly muscular women) and think I get better roleplaying out of my players as a result.
Dear people who regularly play the opposite sex/GMs with games full of said players, and they're amazing and totally not stereotypes: I'm thrilled for you, congratulations. No, I don't feel I am missing out on this unique and satisfying roleplaying experience.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 04:25:00 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 09, 2023, 04:10:06 PMOTOH, I've noticed over the years that when it comes down to kicking doors in and kicking goblin butts, the ladies seems to be a tad more enthusiastic than the guys, on average.
As a tangent, I don't allow players to play the opposite sex. I know this statement is likely to summon outrage from some as iridescent as as a nuke going off, but I have my reasons.
In my experience, women tend to play male characters like swaggering murder-hobos, and men tend to make slutty characters. Anyone screaming in rage at this, you do you. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one player who has complained about this rule in decades (because he had a legit fetish for playing huge, cartoonishly muscular women) and think I get better roleplaying out of my players as a result.
Dear people who regularly play the opposite sex/GMs with games full of said players, and they're amazing and totally not stereotypes: I'm thrilled for you, congratulations. No, I don't feel I am missing out on this unique and satisfying roleplaying experience.
As a GM, I routinely role play characters of many different races, sexes (including irrelevant), etc. A player can play whatever they feel comfortable playing. If they are stupid about it, I won't have to do anything, because the other players will razz them mercilessly. This is the advantage of playing with normal people.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 04:25:00 PM
Quote from: Steven Mitchell on February 09, 2023, 04:10:06 PMOTOH, I've noticed over the years that when it comes down to kicking doors in and kicking goblin butts, the ladies seems to be a tad more enthusiastic than the guys, on average.
As a tangent, I don't allow players to play the opposite sex. I know this statement is likely to summon outrage from some as iridescent as as a nuke going off, but I have my reasons.
In my experience, women tend to play male characters like swaggering murder-hobos, and men tend to make slutty characters. Anyone screaming in rage at this, you do you. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one player who has complained about this rule in decades (because he had a legit fetish for playing huge, cartoonishly muscular women) and think I get better roleplaying out of my players as a result.
Dear people who regularly play the opposite sex/GMs with games full of said players, and they're amazing and totally not stereotypes: I'm thrilled for you, congratulations. No, I don't feel I am missing out on this unique and satisfying roleplaying experience.
I've never seen or enforced this rule myself. I have seen more than one guy play the slutty female character. There's a laugh and some eye rolls and the game continues. Mostly when I'm in a game where people are playing the opposite sex, it amounts to little more than a slight annoyance to keep track of. "Oh yeah, right I forgot you're a guy." It comes up sometimes in social challenges but often it's just forgotten fluff.
I'm a guy who's played many female characters, mostly due to using random character generation rules. Some systems I like have options to roll everything and sometimes run with it.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 04:25:00 PM
Dear people who regularly play the opposite sex/GMs with games full of said players, and they're amazing and totally not stereotypes: I'm thrilled for you, congratulations. No, I don't feel I am missing out on this unique and satisfying roleplaying experience.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yeah I'm definitely in the allow-cross-sex-play camp, and have played plenty of female PCs. But same-sex play seems actually more ubiquitous now than it used to be. I have one female player who identifies as non-binary who often plays male PCs, but I think everyone else from say 25 players is playing same-sex.
Edit: I think I see more slutty male PCs and murder hobo female PCs than vice-versa... one female half-orc barbarian blacksmith is a bit of a slutty murder hobo though - she likes to nail the strongest male warrior wherever she visits. Nail one way or another. ;D
I've had two separate occasions where a female player played a male dwarf because, "I just can't see a dwarf as female." If they couldn't have played opposite sex, they wouldn't have played a dwarf at all. :D
Quote from: S'mon on February 09, 2023, 04:43:29 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 04:25:00 PM
Dear people who regularly play the opposite sex/GMs with games full of said players, and they're amazing and totally not stereotypes: I'm thrilled for you, congratulations. No, I don't feel I am missing out on this unique and satisfying roleplaying experience.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Yeah I'm definitely in the allow-cross-sex-play camp, and have played plenty of female PCs. But same-sex play seems actually more ubiquitous now than it used to be. I have one female player who identifies as non-binary who often plays male PCs, but I think everyone else from say 25 players is playing same-sex.
Edit: I think I see more slutty male PCs and murder hobo female PCs than vice-versa... one female half-orc barbarian blacksmith is a bit of a slutty murder hobo though - she likes to nail the strongest male warrior wherever she visits. Nail one way or another. ;D
It's a game where you pretend to be someone/something you're not, can't be, aren't allowed to be IRL.
IME guys that are timid tend to play the opposite, same with women, they love the murder-hobbo-ish characters because it's something they can never be IRL.
Of course there's always the exception, but IME women who play slutty women tend to cause problems in the group IF their PC starts flirting with the PC of a male player.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 04:25:00 PM
In my experience, women tend to play male characters like swaggering murder-hobos, and men tend to make slutty characters. Anyone screaming in rage at this, you do you. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one player who has complained about this rule in decades (because he had a legit fetish for playing huge, cartoonishly muscular women) and think I get better roleplaying out of my players as a result.
Dear people who regularly play the opposite sex/GMs with games full of said players, and they're amazing and totally not stereotypes: I'm thrilled for you, congratulations. No, I don't feel I am missing out on this unique and satisfying roleplaying experience.
You mean, when your players play characters of the same sex they are
not ridiculous stereotypes? Amazing! ;)
I also have been fine with cross-gender play. I suspect most posters here are similar. Regarding demographics of theRPGsite,
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 09, 2023, 12:13:57 PM
ShieldWife, and if BoxCrayonTales isn't female I'll eat my hat. Apart from that I don't personally know of any.
Which means we're representative of traditional roleplaying. A whole lot of dudes, mostly white, with any women or Western-minorities fully welcome as equals.
There's a huge difference between 99% male and majority male. As SHARK put it in the other thread,
Quote from: SHARK on February 07, 2023, 11:27:21 PM
Women and minorities have always been welcome. I had girls, black guys, Hispanic guys, Asian guys all eager to play D&D going way back. In the intervening years, that has never changed, except to increase in popularity with both women and minority gamers.
I generally agree with SHARK. White males were the core demographic from the beginning, but there were always exceptions. When I was in grade school circa 1980, I didn't know any girls who played - but then, at that time, girls had cooties. From research of that time, women were likely only 5 to 10% of the players. (Gygax estimated 10-15%, but Gary Alan Fine puts it closer to 5%.) But by 1999, RPG players were around 20% women - likely many of them World of Darkness and other games. Some recent estimates put the number of women role-players as high as 40%.
I don't have any numbers for race or ethnicity, but I'd guess non-white males are at least as common as women.
As an aside, I'd caution against using RPG conventions as a basis. There are a lot of people who will play a game with their friends, but aren't interested in going to a dedicated convention. Conventions tend to concentrate the longer-term, harder-core segment of players - which is different from the more casual people who play with their friends. I've known many women players who were uninterested in going to conventions, despite being enthusiastic about the gaming.
----
There's nothing wrong with theRPGsite being 99% male, but I don't think we're representative even of RPG players in the 1980s, and even less so RPGs in the 1990s. We're far more male-dominated. (I'm not sure about race/ethnicity - we might be representative on that front.)
Quote from: jhkim on February 10, 2023, 01:21:46 AMSome recent estimates put the number of women role-players as high as 40%.
See, when someone from a scientific background plops out figures like this, it's hard not to think you're not just pushing an agenda you'd like to be real.
Estimates by who? Using company data, or self reporting? What criteria is used to label someone a "roleplayer?" I'd bet good money it's bar is as low as "has tried an RPG" or "plays one only when other people want to"
When we look at video games, we find the oft-cited "women are half of gamers" to be, at best, only technically correct.
https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/beyond-50-50-breaking-down-the-percentage-of-female-gamers-by-genre (https://www.gamedeveloper.com/business/beyond-50-50-breaking-down-the-percentage-of-female-gamers-by-genre)
Here's men vs women playing video games. Most female gamers play on their phone, as a time waster, and not very often. But they are included as "gamers," alongside guys who buy consoles and gaming rigs, buy new games monthly, and play lots of hours.
Yes, they both play games, but only someone disingenuous would say both fit the mould of what we picture when the word 'gamer' is mentioned. It's like being called a boardgame enthusiast because you play snakes and ladders with your kids on rainy days.
Then the women who are real gamers, they cluster around a few genres, whereas guys play in great numbers in all genres. Hell, they're nearly a third even in the female dominated mobile clicker games.
Women enjoy and play RPG's. Women have always enjoyed and played RPGs. Women are playing in larger number than ever before. But men way outnumber them, and tend to obsess on them more (why else sausage fest game forums and Cons?) I don't think we'll ever approach parity, because in general the sexes have different likes, and there's only so far you can alter RPGs.
I'd also like to see the gender and race figures for gaming when society decides nerds are uncool again, and hipsters move on to motorbike jousting/competitive bird watching.
I hope everyone that truly loves the hobby stays with it once the bubble bursts, and I don't care what genitals they have, or the color of their skin. The trash will go out with the tide, and we'll know that the people that remain are actual gamers.
The last time I ran a public D&D Meetup ca 2018/19 I think it was still around 25% female/75% male, maybe getting up around 33%/66%. One thing I noticed at another Meetup playing Tomb of Annihilation when it came out was that was the first time I'd ever seen multiple black players at one table, group was 2/6 black and 3/6 female. I think my own group of players is about 1/3 female 2/3 male. Of my game groups currently running, Faerun 7 has 3 female players and 4-5 male. Barrowmaze has 2 female players and 5-6 male, it started as an all male group, but the women infiltrated. ;D Odyssey of the Dragonlords restarting start of March is 3 female 3 male. Dragonbane playtest group this Sunday is 3 female 2 male.
40/60 seems high but not impossible. Public recruitment of strangers on eg Roll20 is almost all male though, almost like bulletin board numbers. ;D
I get a bit perturbed when I see the "white male gatekeeping" claims being made about the early days of D&D, especially from those who didn't even play during that time. I started playing in 75-76 and I can say with utter certainty that there was no effort on our part to exclude anyone based on sex or color. There was, however, a significant effort to "bar the gates" from those outside the hobby.
I once told a girl about D&D during recess and the next day I was in the assistant principal's office being told that it was inappropriate to talk about such things to young ladies. The next recess she asked about it again, and the ensuing discussion resulted in a parent teacher conference with both families and the threat of suspension being bandied about.
We had a Chess & Battle club in elementary school where we played old Avalon Hill/SPI games and some pretty epic games of D&D. One day some older girls asked to watch the session and we agreed (even offering to let them participate). They hung around for the session and, when it was over, one of them loudly proclaimed, "I have never seen a bigger bunch of losers in my life!" and then they all laughed and walked away. They actively persecuted many of us for the rest of our school careers.
As an example, one of them talked to a friend of mine and told him that she was actually interested in D&D now that it was more popular and that she didn't really understand it when they watched the game being played. She asked if he would bring some books over and teach her how it worked. The rest of us were dubious and warned him it was probably a bad idea, but he went anyway. Of course he got there, was ambushed by a bunch of football player friends of hers (well, eventual football players) who ripped up his books, beat him up, tore off his clothes and sent him running home essentially naked. The police were called by my friends family, which resulted in the girl/jocks reporting that my friend has exposed himself to the girl and that they were justified in beating the "little freak's" ass. Luckily the police saw through that ruse without much difficulty and took appropriate action, but it didn't stop them from warning his parents about the potential hazards of playing D&D. He never did get his books back.
I went to a public library while on a trip to another state that actually ran D&D games on the weekends. I was actually surprised to see a young girl show up to play, and a little more surprised when I heard some grumbling about it. Turns out they weren't grumbling about the girl for being a girl, they were grumbling about that the fact that the Library assigned an elderly librarian (female) who attended the session and basically vetoed anything unseemly going on. Apparently fighting monsters, getting injured by a trap, seeing a dead body, and casting spells are extremely traumatizing to young women and could not be allowed in game while they were present. Luckily the DM, an older man, was pretty good (and experienced with the restrictions) so the session still went relatively well, though a couple things still caught him by surprise. He did note that the girls never come back after the first session. Was it that the experience didn't grab them? That they didn't want to singled out with a chaperone? The lack of other girls? That the boys were more aggressive outside the library environment? I can't say, but I suspect it wasn't gatekeeping that was responsible.
In high school we still took a lot of abuse. However, there was a girl in AP classes with me and some of my gaming group who expressed an interest in playing. After a bit of consternation due to what had happened in the past we decided to let her play and we all had a great time. She was actually super creative and actually came up with some pretty devious solutions to some of the threats we were faced with in game. We played fairly regularly until one day a white Chevy Nova pulled up next to me as I walking home and 3 guys jumped out and proceeded to wipe the floor with me. Turns out it was her boyfriend (a freshman in college) who found out she was playing an RPG and decided he needed to put a stop to it. At one time or another I, or one of the other groups would get approached by that guy (or his friends) and threatened or beaten if they felt that we deserved it. We were told it would be a hell of a lot worse if we told her about it. I'm sad to say that most of us started bowing out of sessions after that. I sill lament that, but 17 year-old me just couldn't bring himself to stand up to the beatings and destruction of my tenuous high school social career over it. It actually drove me away from D&D for the rest of my HS career (and for a couple years after that as I joined the Navy at 17).
I actually have some more related stories, as well as a much more tragic one concerning playing D&D with a young man of color that I probably still not equipped to deal with. But I guess in my rambling what I'm trying to say that throughout most of my life it has never been the grognard that was worked to keep women out of the hobby. It's almost always been outside actors trying to protect women from something they don't understand. Sure, I didn't attend college as a young man, so I can't speak to that environment. I can say that I had played D&D in over 30 states and half a dozen countries during the 70's and 80's and never really encountered a lot of the supposed sexist traits we supposedly exhibited in spades. Am I saying that didn't happen? Not at all. I'm just saying that I don't believe it to be nearly as pervasive of the old gaming scene as many would have us believe.
My experience is that females have always been involved in our RPG games, but males have always been the majority. When I was a boy it was mostly male (although I do remember two girls that were involved). By high school and into college maybe a third of the group was female (often girlfriends who got involved that way). There was *never* any desire to exclude females. Quite the opposite: even when I was a boy thought it was great if a girl wanted to play.
My kids have their own groups, now. One group is 100% male. The other is about 50/50 male and female (that one was put together by one of my daughters).
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 08, 2023, 11:54:38 PM
breaking his companies HR policy for publicly stating he wants to violate Title IX?
Psst.. Title VII
Quote from: Philotomy Jurament on February 10, 2023, 05:08:16 PM
My experience is that females have always been involved in our RPG games, but males have always been the majority. When I was a boy it was mostly male (although I do remember two girls that were involved). By high school and into college maybe a third of the group was female (often girlfriends who got involved that way). There was *never* any desire to exclude females. Quite the opposite: even when I was a boy thought it was great if a girl wanted to play.
Yeah, same here. We had women play sometimes and were always pumped for it. I never experienced or saw the whole "No Girls Allowed" thing except in movies or on TV, so when I hear people talk of it, seems really strange. /shrug
Quote from: DocJones on February 10, 2023, 05:54:13 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 08, 2023, 11:54:38 PM
breaking his companies HR policy for publicly stating he wants to violate Title IX?
Psst.. Title VII
It's an understandable mistake. Title IX is much more widely publicized.
Also, it's both Title VI and Title VII. Kyle didn't say anything about kicking out white women.
Had one girl play with our group in high school (early '80s). Didn't have any others interested I guess. It was never a big deal. Both my wife and daughter play occasionally, but aren't as interested in playing as my son and I. They're always welcome. I play with people I like, who like to play games and are not assholes. Pretty simple. That disqualifies self hating, virtue signaling douchebags like Brink.
The irony is many claiming that they were gatekeeper from the hobby because of gender are hypocrites of the highest calibre. As before they showed an interest in rpgs most considered gamers of any kind either "nerds, losers etc". Hardly speaking to them let alone giving them the time of day.
Many refuse to admit they treated the above terribly it's easier to create a victim narrative rather than actually admit as teenagers they were horrible people who treated fellow geeks terribly.
Same thing with any gay , trans etc. up until I would say the late 90s even then in my area no one was admitting to being gay and trans the only thing trans was trans fat. Again rather than admit they were in the closet or worse because at the time society was extremely intolerant of them (and no not just catholic and Christians) create a false victim narrative. Where they were banned because of their sexuality. In many cases unfortunately they kept it hidden because they would either be ostracized by family, society and their jobs. Sorry so called woke 1980- late 1990s North America was not by any stretch of the imagination progressive. No matter how many carefully constructed personal narratives envisioned in your heads.
We never turned anyone away because we were one social misfits that were mocked for liking comics, rpgs. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Having been made fun of why would we not be more accepting.
Quote from: Abraxus on February 11, 2023, 12:24:31 PM
The irony is many claiming that they were gatekeeper from the hobby because of gender are hypocrites of the highest calibre. As before they showed an interest in rpgs most considered gamers of any kind either "nerds, losers etc". Hardly speaking to them let alone giving them the time of day.
Many refuse to admit they treated the above terribly it's easier to create a victim narrative rather than actually admit as teenagers they were horrible people who treated fellow geeks terribly.
Same thing with any gay , trans etc. up until I would say the late 90s even then in my area no one was admitting to being gay and trans the only thing trans was trans fat. Again rather than admit they were in the closet or worse because at the time society was extremely intolerant of them (and no not just catholic and Christians) create a false victim narrative. Where they were banned because of their sexuality. In many cases unfortunately they kept it hidden because they would either be ostracized by family, society and their jobs. Sorry so called woke 1980- late 1990s North America was not by any stretch of the imagination progressive. No matter how many carefully constructed personal narratives envisioned in your heads.
We never turned anyone away because we were one social misfits that were mocked for liking comics, rpgs. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Having been made fun of why would we not be more accepting.
The fellow geeks aren't the ones making the gatekeeping libel (or is it slander?) accusations, it's the horrible people that, NOW THAT IS TRENDY/COOL to like the stuff they used to treat us horribly for come and want to expell us from OUR culture. Because they still don't like us, they just want to control our shit.
Then you have the postmodernist culture warriors that believe in social constructivism, so they need to control culture to change humanity into the perfect beings they think we really are but culture/society programs us otherwise.
Quote
I know stuff like 5E has managed to substantially up the number of women and Western-minorities (although still a blip, they're deluding themselves) but I put it to you (dear reader) that this has only been done by becoming a lifestyle brand fad and reducing mechanical complexity.
Being maths heavy and very complex has always been a complaint from women wanting in to the hobby. If you were a woman and you didn't mind those things, you were an outlier, and already in the hobby having fun.
Ah yes famous women-lead OSR movement trying to restore simple old school rules, because post 3.0 D&D turned out to be unwieldy arithmetic exercise of stacking dozens bonuses ;)
Quote from: Wrath of God on February 11, 2023, 08:47:02 PM
Quote
I know stuff like 5E has managed to substantially up the number of women and Western-minorities (although still a blip, they're deluding themselves) but I put it to you (dear reader) that this has only been done by becoming a lifestyle brand fad and reducing mechanical complexity.
Being maths heavy and very complex has always been a complaint from women wanting in to the hobby. If you were a woman and you didn't mind those things, you were an outlier, and already in the hobby having fun.
Ah yes famous women-lead OSR movement trying to restore simple old school rules, because post 3.0 D&D turned out to be unwieldy arithmetic exercise of stacking dozens bonuses ;)
I wonder if the men that perpetuate this are aware of how infantilizing it is to say women can't do simple arithmetic operations like addition and substraction.
As for the women who make those claims (if they exist), well fuck off elsewhere then, why should OUR thing, that isn't really math heavy nor really complex change to suit your ignorant or lazy ass? There's plenty of women that have joined and enojoyed the hobby without those changes you claim are keeping wahmen out, so fuck off.
It's the "we demand you change the thing" meme over, and over again.
No, I refuse to believe women are so stupid as to not be able to do arithmetics or learn a few simple rules, and to the mysoginists that say otherwise well they can fuck righ off too.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 09:20:30 PMNo, I refuse to believe women are so stupid as to not be able to do arithmetics or learn a few simple rules, and to the mysoginists that say otherwise well they can fuck righ off too.
I think you meant to post this pearl-clutching virtue signal on the Big Purple.
"I refuse to believe!" ""misogynists!" do you even hear yourself? Reality doesn't care.
The fraction of women that enjoy rpg's TEND to not enjoy the mechanical crunch AS MUCH as the fraction of men that enjoy RPG's, but there are certainly exceptions = women are infants and can't do arithmatic!
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cf0F-KzE-DE/maxresdefault.jpg)
The Nordic countries bent over till their spines snapped to create a gender neutral society so tech and engineering would swell once the women weren't gate kept by mean old men. You know what happened?
https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/ (https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/)
I had no idea my backward, caveman-esque misogyny was so powerful! Or, and this is far fetched, so hear me out here: men and women
in general have different interest, maybe even capabilities.
(https://daktal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Victorian-fainting-couch-646x420.jpg)
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 11, 2023, 09:55:58 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 09:20:30 PMNo, I refuse to believe women are so stupid as to not be able to do arithmetics or learn a few simple rules, and to the mysoginists that say otherwise well they can fuck righ off too.
I think you meant to post this pearl-clutching virtue signal on the Big Purple.
"I refuse to believe!" ""misogynists!" do you even hear yourself? Reality doesn't care.
The fraction of women that enjoy rpg's TEND to not enjoy the mechanical crunch AS MUCH as the fraction of men that enjoy RPG's, but there are certainly exceptions = women are infants and can't do arithmatic!
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/cf0F-KzE-DE/maxresdefault.jpg)
The Nordic countries bent over till their spines snapped to create a gender neutral society so tech and engineering would swell once the women weren't gate kept by mean old men. You know what happened?
https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/ (https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/)
I had no idea my backward, caveman-esque misogyny was so powerful! Or, and this is far fetched, so hear me out here: men and women in general have different interest, maybe even capabilities.
(https://daktal.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Victorian-fainting-couch-646x420.jpg)
So, somehow the women in India have more math capabilities?
Nope, when you talk about career choice it's not only (or mainly) about what you're good at, but what you like. So, in more wealthy societies when you flaten the societal aspect to make it more egalitarian you end up exacerbating the preference differences.
But I'm so glad you and the imbeciles at WotC and other SJW infested places agree that women are like children and can't do arithmetics. (Wonder who should be posting on TBP between you and me since they also agree that it's the math/complexity keeping the wahmen out).
Yes, thinking women inferior IS mysoginy, which means that you are?.
I gatekeep my group like a motherfucker, the minute I hear pronouns, genital hole preference, I'm a dragon kin I want to express myself with that dragon etc its a "we aren't the right group for you" or the swipe left when looking for a player. But my chat is fairly conservative as we are playing, hell I use Fetterman's face as my hill giant token.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 10:18:08 PMNope, when you talk about career choice it's not only (or mainly) about what you're good at, but what you like. So, in more wealthy societies when you flaten the societal aspect to make it more egalitarian you end up exacerbating the preference differences.
Yes, and women in general like people over things, language and interaction over stats and figures.
I laid out a very long and nuanced argument about women in gaming, mentioned repeatedly these were generalities and their were exceptions. Nowhere in a single post did I say women are infants, and can't learn basic rules or math. Go and find me these quotes, or STFU.
You got triggered, pulled a strawman from your asshole, and started trying to appeal to emotion to draw people to attack me. You've acted like an clown.
You even agreed with me by saying women that can't handle some maths and rules should find another hobby, (after I'd already said women who don't mind those things have always been in the hobby, and we shouldn't dumb down to try and appeal to different women) but you were so busy honking your red nose that this fact flew over your head.
Just take the L and move on.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 11, 2023, 10:25:37 PM
I gatekeep my group like a motherfucker, the minute I hear pronouns, genital hole preference, I'm a dragon kin I want to express myself with that dragon etc its a "we aren't the right group for you" or the swipe left when looking for a player. But my chat is fairly conservative as we are playing, hell I use Fetterman's face as my hill giant token.
Good for you. I don't care a damn what people's lifestyles or fetishes are, but as you rightly discerned, some words and phrases are a giant glowing sign that reads DRAMA QUEEN.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 11, 2023, 10:52:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 10:18:08 PMNope, when you talk about career choice it's not only (or mainly) about what you're good at, but what you like. So, in more wealthy societies when you flaten the societal aspect to make it more egalitarian you end up exacerbating the preference differences.
Yes, and women in general like people over things, language and interaction over stats and figures.
I laid out a very long and nuanced argument about women in gaming, mentioned repeatedly these were generalities and their were exceptions. Nowhere in a single post did I say women are infants, and can't learn basic rules or math. Go and find me these quotes, or STFU.
You got triggered, pulled a strawman from your asshole, and started trying to appeal to emotion to draw people to attack me. You've acted like an clown.
You even agreed with me by saying women that can't handle some maths and rules should find another hobby, (after I'd already said women who don't mind those things have always been in the hobby, and we shouldn't dumb down to try and appeal to different women) but you were so busy honking your red nose that this fact flew over your head.
Just take the L and move on.
I never would agree with you that women are infants and can't do arithmetics.
Here's your "nuanced" argument that you claim I strawmaned:
QuoteThe fraction of women that enjoy rpg's TEND to not enjoy the mechanical crunch AS MUCH as the fraction of men that enjoy RPG's, but there are certainly exceptions = women are infants and can't do arithmatic!
Now take the L and go pound sand with the mysoginists at WotC, TBP.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 11:02:58 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 11, 2023, 10:52:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 10:18:08 PMNope, when you talk about career choice it's not only (or mainly) about what you're good at, but what you like. So, in more wealthy societies when you flaten the societal aspect to make it more egalitarian you end up exacerbating the preference differences.
Yes, and women in general like people over things, language and interaction over stats and figures.
I laid out a very long and nuanced argument about women in gaming, mentioned repeatedly these were generalities and their were exceptions. Nowhere in a single post did I say women are infants, and can't learn basic rules or math. Go and find me these quotes, or STFU.
You got triggered, pulled a strawman from your asshole, and started trying to appeal to emotion to draw people to attack me. You've acted like an clown.
You even agreed with me by saying women that can't handle some maths and rules should find another hobby, (after I'd already said women who don't mind those things have always been in the hobby, and we shouldn't dumb down to try and appeal to different women) but you were so busy honking your red nose that this fact flew over your head.
Just take the L and move on.
I never would agree with you that women are infants and can't do arithmetics.
Here's your "nuanced" argument that you claim I strawmaned:
QuoteThe fraction of women that enjoy rpg's TEND to not enjoy the mechanical crunch AS MUCH as the fraction of men that enjoy RPG's, but there are certainly exceptions = women are infants and can't do arithmatic!
Now take the L and go pound sand with the mysoginists at WotC, TBP.
Erm, my quote was AFTER your strawman, and is obviously poking fun at your ridiculous false equivalency. I don't know where your mania ends, and your limited ability to parse written English begins. I can only assure you that you look absolutely ridiculous with your doubling and tripling down on nothing.
Anyone reading this: go back and read my posts, you'll find not a single mention of women having less capability than men. Bugle is fighting phantoms in his own brain.
It's sad, Bugle, because you spend so much time railing against behaviour you're now engaging in textbook examples of. I hold no beef, despite you repeatedly insulting and attacking me
personally over imagined BS. Seriously, step away from the keyboard and touch grass.
Yeah. Forgive him - Geeky is kinda on spectrum and has some anger issues, so such storms about nothing in particular happens.
Indeed I agree - it's not matter of arithmetic talents (dammit I'm quite sure most accountants in my country are women, not sure about USA) but about enjoyment.
But on the other hand I'd also note that high crunchers are also generally minority within male fans of RPG, for most people high amount of crunch unless really well streamlined is just chore, taking away from interacting with fiction of the world or drama.
Quote from: Wrath of God on February 12, 2023, 05:05:49 AMBut on the other hand I'd also note that high crunchers are also generally minority within male fans of RPG, for most people high amount of crunch unless really well streamlined is just chore, taking away from interacting with fiction of the world or drama.
Sure, you want enough crunch to make tactical, and advancement, choices meaningful, without needless over-complexity. Some of the very old systems are laid out like technical manuals, and have charts and rules for every little thing.
So it makes sense that as companies discovered a better balance, and low crunch games came in to existence, the appeal widened. The difference was simply far more pronounced for female player numbers.
My concern is that in the march to appeal to large and larger sections of society, especially the average woman, they are stripping the complexity out of games.
It is OK for women (in general) to like different things to men. I'm actually disturbed by how deep the Tabula Rasa meme has infested the West, so that even anti-wokist can buy in to it.
My wife is a very smart lady, highly educated, and used to work in a technical-adjacent field. She has no interest in learning game systems, or in plotting out her character advancement (whereas a lot of guys take great pleasure in pouring over rulebooks and mastering the minutiae). She is always complaining that the constant arithmetic is boring and annoying, and just wants to focus on the social aspects and how her character looks.
The only woman I've ever gamed with who actually obsessed over the technical details of roleplaying games is (prepared to be shocked) autistic, and a min-maxer.
QuoteMy concern is that in the march to appeal to large and larger sections of society, especially the average woman, they are stripping the complexity out of games. It is OK for women (in general) to like different things to men. I'm actually disturbed by how deep the Tabula Rasa meme has infested the West, so that even anti-wokist can buy in to it.
I'm really not. There is plenty crunchy things out there - I mean D&D 5e is still on more than less crunchy side if you consider all RPGs and games following D&D in charts of popularity - Call of Cthulhu and Pathfinder are not what I'd call rule-lite. New edition of Warhammer Fantasy arguably is crunchiest of all 4. It's wretched retroclone Zweihander even more.
QuoteThe only woman I've ever gamed with who actually obsessed over the technical details of roleplaying games is (prepared to be shocked) autistic, and a min-maxer.
And note how RPGSite OSR fans are promoting sandboxes, lite mechanics and curse later editions of D&D for allowing mini-maxing and planned builds :P
And arguably OSR is one of most sausage-festy subgroups in RPG.
It's no a matter of Tabula Rasa, it's a matter of competence vs enjoyment:
There's no rule or mechanic in most RPGs so complex most women aren't able to grok it.
The fact remains most don't want to, but that's also true for most men that aren't RPG gamers.
The problem arises when Wahmen (not women) demand the hobby changes to become something else THEY claim to enjoy in order to attract gazillions of women. Because the hobby as it is attracts more men than women, which is "problematic" for the Wahmen.
The narrative that if it was simpler, with less math/rules it would attract more women WAS created by these Wahmen, is perpetuated by their lackeys the Male Feminists. The truth is you can change it into something that MIGHT attract a small fraction of the women, but to do so you will loose most of your current customer base.
Because Romance Novels attract women while Military Sci-Fi attracts men. Which is fine, except if you're an activist.
Again, women can grok the hobby as is, they don't want to, because it's not their thing, and for those women that it is their thing... Well they are already in the hobby or can be recruited without changing ANYTHING.
It's like the narrative about black people, the fact is they don't participate out of societal pressure from their own communities, because "It's acting white". So, if you really want more blacks in the hobby you don't need to change the hobby, you need to change American black culture.
Likewise if you want more women (without loosing ANY current customer) you need to stop the activists from propagating the lie that women have ever not been welcome, that every LGS is at best a mysoginist den that will discriminate against them and at worst a den of rapists who will take turns on any woman foolish enough to enter.
Why are more women now than in the beggining? Because now it's seen as cool to participate in the hobby, it's no longer the sole domain of those stinky nerds/geeks. Same goes for every geek hobby that has gone mainstream.
Fuck, they have already started going after train modellers!
To reiterate, women can and have groked the hobby without changing it, the rest is just activist narrative propagated knowing it's a lie or not or by REAL mysoginists that think women inferior (yes all male feminists are the latter).
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 12, 2023, 03:26:30 PM
It's no a matter of Tabula Rasa, it's a matter of competence vs enjoyment:
There's no rule or mechanic in most RPGs so complex most women aren't able to grok it.
The fact remains most don't want to, but that's also true for most men that aren't RPG gamers.
The problem arises when Wahmen (not women) demand the hobby changes to become something else THEY claim to enjoy in order to attract gazillions of women. Because the hobby as it is attracts more men than women, which is "problematic" for the Wahmen.
The narrative that if it was simpler, with less math/rules it would attract more women WAS created by these Wahmen, is perpetuated by their lackeys the Male Feminists. The truth is you can change it into something that MIGHT attract a small fraction of the women, but to do so you will loose most of your current customer base.
Because Romance Novels attract women while Military Sci-Fi attracts men. Which is fine, except if you're an activist.
Again, women can grok the hobby as is, they don't want to, because it's not their thing, and for those women that it is their thing... Well they are already in the hobby or can be recruited without changing ANYTHING.
It's like the narrative about black people, the fact is they don't participate out of societal pressure from their own communities, because "It's acting white". So, if you really want more blacks in the hobby you don't need to change the hobby, you need to change American black culture.
Likewise if you want more women (without loosing ANY current customer) you need to stop the activists from propagating the lie that women have ever not been welcome, that every LGS is at best a mysoginist den that will discriminate against them and at worst a den of rapists who will take turns on any woman foolish enough to enter.
Why are more women now than in the beggining? Because now it's seen as cool to participate in the hobby, it's no longer the sole domain of those stinky nerds/geeks. Same goes for every geek hobby that has gone mainstream.
Fuck, they have already started going after train modellers!
To reiterate, women can and have groked the hobby without changing it, the rest is just activist narrative propagated knowing it's a lie or not or by REAL mysoginists that think women inferior (yes all male feminists are the latter).
Greetings!
Excellent, GeekyBugle!
In general, women have different interests than men do. Even when you do have women gamers--women tend to favour different aspects of the game than men do. Women typically love roleplaying, drama and developing stories. Math, rules, technical minutia--not so much. I would think that anyone playing with a decent number of women gamers would notice this very obvious distinction.
I don't understand these people that somehow want to insist that women MUST play the game the same way as men, and women enjoy the SAME aspects as men do! *Laughing* Why is it such a problem that women gamers have different preferences than men gamers?
It is what it is, you know? *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 12, 2023, 03:26:30 PM
Fuck, they have already started going after train modellers!
I'd be shocked, but after knitting got political, I think my bar got raised for that.
Gaming & Math
1) Public education in the USA has become a woketarded shitfest, thus more "graduates" of the system are unable to do the mental math that was basic and easy for previous generations. AKA, when you allow calculators in the classroom, the less students use their brains to do equations. AKA when you take rote learning out of the classroom, less students know their basic math computations by heart.
2) The media landscape of 1974, 1984 and 1994 are all different, but nothing compared to the explosion of entertainment options in last two decades. When people have FAR more diversions - particularly digital crack - the audience for more complex games which require more time, more thinking and more effort shrinks.
3) It's not just RPGs. This "dumbing down" has occurred in boardgames and miniatures gaming, because the market MUST respond to the realities of their audiences.
In many ways, it's not even "dumbing down" but recognizing that complexity turns off the casual gaming audience, many of whom could easily handle complex games, but the demands on their time (real or imagined) makes them avoid complex games.
As for male vs female, it's no surprise to anyone with any understanding of the two human sexes that RPGs were, are and will always be a predominantly male hobby.
And that's fine. Most men and most women like to do different things with their free time with a small number of exceptions who crossover into the other sex's hobbies for whatever reason.
On a personal note, I prefer simple rules / complex gameplay for all games. AKA, I like games with a minimum of rules, but lots of interesting non-mechanical stuff to do during the game or at least lots of interesting choices to use the minimal mechanics with.
Oh, and fuck WotC.
In the ass.
With a chainsaw.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Leadership roles may have, what, half a dozen positions?
So in a country that is still majority white, 6 white guys happened to be the best for the job is somehow proof that everything is racist, and we need a shake up.
I'll put a thousand dollars down on the barrel. If you can get a progressive to go to a business that happens to have 6 women/black people/Asians as leadership, and have the progressive tell them they're racist/sexist and need a few white guys.
I think my money is safe.
As it turns out, it was not 6. It's 20. There's 20 executive level positions in Wizards of the Coast. NONE of the 20 are currently held by a person of color.
I think that this might potentially indicate that Wizards of the Coast/ Hasbro is RACIST, and needs to fix this by honoring the great human rights campaigner Kyle Brink by granting the sincerest wish of his heart and firing him, replacing him with a person of color. And hey, let's go crazy, maybe that person of color could also be a game designer? Or at least a gamer?? Which would be better than almost any of the other execs.
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 12, 2023, 07:05:29 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Leadership roles may have, what, half a dozen positions?
So in a country that is still majority white, 6 white guys happened to be the best for the job is somehow proof that everything is racist, and we need a shake up.
I'll put a thousand dollars down on the barrel. If you can get a progressive to go to a business that happens to have 6 women/black people/Asians as leadership, and have the progressive tell them they're racist/sexist and need a few white guys.
I think my money is safe.
As it turns out, it was not 6. It's 20. There's 20 executive level positions in Wizards of the Coast. NONE of the 20 are currently held by a person of color.
I think that this might potentially indicate that Wizards of the Coast/ Hasbro is RACIST, and needs to fix this by honoring the great human rights campaigner Kyle Brink by granting the sincerest wish of his heart and firing him, replacing him with a person of color. And hey, let's go crazy, maybe that person of color could also be a game designer? Or at least a gamer?? Which would be better than almost any of the other execs.
You forget they can just identify as Pronoun Wearers and Abracadabra! It's the most DiverseTM executive (board?) in the world evaaaaah.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 12, 2023, 07:11:56 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 12, 2023, 07:05:29 PM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Leadership roles may have, what, half a dozen positions?
So in a country that is still majority white, 6 white guys happened to be the best for the job is somehow proof that everything is racist, and we need a shake up.
I'll put a thousand dollars down on the barrel. If you can get a progressive to go to a business that happens to have 6 women/black people/Asians as leadership, and have the progressive tell them they're racist/sexist and need a few white guys.
I think my money is safe.
You forget they can just identify as Pronoun Wearers and Abracadabra! It's the most DiverseTM executive (board?) in the world evaaaaah.
Now lets not get too drastic here. The Exec doesn't have to know anything about gaming. I would hope at the very least they'd hire Xindi X Canti, Linda Sarsour, Ilhan O'mar, Susan Rosenberg and Patrisse Cullors as their women and men of color. Just imagine all the profit Habro would generate with all that diversity and magical skin? Better yet if we could have them write the rules for 6E or at the very least each of them write an intersectional module for child ages 4+ to help trans them with a line to call to help the children escape to California.
I mean I'd like to be facetious here, but with how bad Hasbro has become, some of that could actually take place.
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 12, 2023, 07:05:29 PM
As it turns out, it was not 6. It's 20. There's 20 executive level positions in Wizards of the Coast. NONE of the 20 are currently held by a person of color.
So they HAS-NO-BRO. :-P
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 12, 2023, 07:05:29 PMAs it turns out, it was not 6. It's 20. There's 20 executive level positions in Wizards of the Coast. NONE of the 20 are currently held by a person of color.
Ah, but factor in some women, a few identifying as Queer, a 1/64th Cherokee, some Jewish guys; suddenly it's pretty diverse! Nothing at all like the stinky plebs in the playerbase.
WotC fires the diversity.
They are CLOSING their LATAM offices, everybody got the boot.
Seeing the people leading it nothing of value was lost.
https://twitter.com/carolgsmoraes/status/1625287763007250432/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/carolgsmoraes/status/1625287763007250432/photo/1)
Well the Braziian uses pronouns, so nothing of worth was lost.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 14, 2023, 11:23:26 PM
WotC fires the diversity.
They are CLOSING their LATAM offices, everybody got the boot.
Seeing the people leading it nothing of value was lost.
https://twitter.com/carolgsmoraes/status/1625287763007250432/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/carolgsmoraes/status/1625287763007250432/photo/1)
Kyle Brink was secretly Latino the whole time lol.
Quote from: Slambo on February 15, 2023, 07:16:16 AM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 14, 2023, 11:23:26 PM
WotC fires the diversity.
They are CLOSING their LATAM offices, everybody got the boot.
Seeing the people leading it nothing of value was lost.
https://twitter.com/carolgsmoraes/status/1625287763007250432/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/carolgsmoraes/status/1625287763007250432/photo/1)
Kyle Brink was secretly Latino the whole time lol.
I found footage of a news conference where he came out as a Latinx woman.
(https://badbooksgoodtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/taco-flavored-kisses.gif)
My favorite part about the three halflings interview was how Brink was not comfortable in the interview the entire time. The only reason he put out the "I can't wait for whitey to die off" line, was he's a racist piece of filth so he wanted to give "blackie" what he thinks they want to hear. Perhaps, now just hear me out, the three halflings aren't race grifters and they just want a good game. I don't know that site at all, just putting it out there, perhaps they care about a good product over magic blood, just saying.
Mind you, when I hear a white leftist talk, based on their ideology, racist comes to mind.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 15, 2023, 09:34:24 AM
My favorite part about the three halflings interview was how Brink was not comfortable in the interview the entire time. The only reason he put out the "I can't wait for whitey to die off" line, was he's a racist piece of filth so he wanted to give "blackie" what he thinks they want to hear. Perhaps, now just hear me out, the three halflings aren't race grifters and they just want a good game. I don't know that site at all, just putting it out there, perhaps they care about a good product over magic blood, just saying.
Mind you, when I hear a white leftist talk, based on their ideology, racist comes to mind.
At least from what Ive heard, they're politically-Black.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 15, 2023, 09:34:24 AM
My favorite part about the three halflings interview was how Brink was not comfortable in the interview the entire time. The only reason he put out the "I can't wait for whitey to die off" line, was he's a racist piece of filth so he wanted to give "blackie" what he thinks they want to hear. Perhaps, now just hear me out, the three halflings aren't race grifters and they just want a good game. I don't know that site at all, just putting it out there, perhaps they care about a good product over magic blood, just saying.
Mind you, when I hear a white leftist talk, based on their ideology, racist comes to mind.
I certainly grant you that the Three Halflings interviewers asked serious, tough questions, which is more than you can say for the other interviews with Brink I've bothered to look at.
Also, if you watch the moment he says the "white people can't leave soon enough line" and look at the interviewer's faces, you know they both think he's an absolute moron.
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2023, 09:49:59 AM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 15, 2023, 09:34:24 AM
My favorite part about the three halflings interview was how Brink was not comfortable in the interview the entire time. The only reason he put out the "I can't wait for whitey to die off" line, was he's a racist piece of filth so he wanted to give "blackie" what he thinks they want to hear. Perhaps, now just hear me out, the three halflings aren't race grifters and they just want a good game. I don't know that site at all, just putting it out there, perhaps they care about a good product over magic blood, just saying.
Mind you, when I hear a white leftist talk, based on their ideology, racist comes to mind.
I certainly grant you that the Three Halflings interviewers asked serious, tough questions, which is more than you can say for the other interviews with Brink I've bothered to look at.
Also, if you watch the moment he says the "white people can't leave soon enough line" and look at the interviewer's faces, you know they both think he's an absolute moron.
Ok, I guess I'll have to give those guys more props, they seemed based from the questions.
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 15, 2023, 09:49:59 AMI certainly grant you that the Three Halflings interviewers asked serious, tough questions, which is more than you can say for the other interviews with Brink I've bothered to look at.
Also, if you watch the moment he says the "white people can't leave soon enough line" and look at the interviewer's faces, you know they both think he's an absolute moron.
100%. When I saw that interview (and I actually watched most of it), Brink is comes off as one of those white-lefties that apparently doesn't hang around actual non-white people with any regularity. The groveling he expresses is only worsened by his angle of discourse. You can see it on the Hobbit's faces clearly as the words come out of his mouth.
I was actually cackling. My wife wasn't even paying attention, and she looked up from her book and said "Did he just say what I thought he said?"... hahahahah. Man I laugh more at this stuff than I do with most modern garbage on TV (which these days I don't regularly consume). Watching WotC self-immolate is pretty entertaining.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 15, 2023, 09:34:24 AM
My favorite part about the three halflings interview was how Brink was not comfortable in the interview the entire time. The only reason he put out the "I can't wait for whitey to die off" line, was he's a racist piece of filth so he wanted to give "blackie" what he thinks they want to hear.
Spot on. He might as well just have blurted out "Some of my best friends are negro!"
Racists gonna racist.
Well I think you all should oblige him. All the white-people should leave D&D.
I want to watch what happens.
Quote from: tenbones on February 15, 2023, 10:35:45 AM
Well I think you all should oblige him. All the white-people should leave D&D.
I want to watch what happens.
You're not woke, ergo, don't count as non-white. Sorry, that's just how it works.
There are study after study where white left talking to blacks talk down to them. What I want to see is a study when a white leftie is talking to perceived poor whites. Anecdotally, I have a rich leftard that married into my family and whenever I listen to them talk its nothing but patronizing down to the poor white folk (trans one of the kids, prevented them from doing chores get a job at 16 to learn work ethic, didn't teach them to grow food or can and didn't teach them how to shoot - if the world goes to hell their kids are dead in 3 days). You know, us poor whites who run million dollar businesses, IT workers who live rural - you know dirt poor. I mean they must be retards because they grow their own food, can their own food, own firearms and have no issues defending themselves. I mean they can't even afford a home in Connecticut for peats sake, damn poors. I wonder what a white leftie would behave around whites who are not middle class? I'd love to see that study. /social class based rant.
I'd be surprised if the execs at WotC would even recognize their customers as humans if they aren't worth at least $500K+.
Quote from: Brad on February 15, 2023, 11:02:15 AM
Quote from: tenbones on February 15, 2023, 10:35:45 AM
Well I think you all should oblige him. All the white-people should leave D&D.
I want to watch what happens.
You're not woke, ergo, don't count as non-white. Sorry, that's just how it works.
Well I am Half-Asian (but I look totally Asian)! So I'm covertly white to the woke. My Race Card, tattered as it is, conveniently can get kicked into and out of all the parties!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 09, 2023, 02:16:06 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 08, 2023, 11:34:15 PM
He didn't say leave "the hobby" he was talking about WOTC higher up design positions.
But as usual we get "6 positions" turned into "EVERYTHING!!!!!!!!!! BURN IT ALL DOWN THEY HATE US ALL!!!!!!!!"
Yeah guys, he was "ONLY" talking about discriminating against white men in Wotzi hiring because they're white men, where's the racism/sexism in that?
In case you didn't get it that's sarcasm, not only he WAS talking about the player base, but your defense of the racist and sexist fuck doesn't make things any better.
You can call it a pony if you want I was making the point that this had nothing to do with saying ANYTHING about consumers of WOTC products and it just has to do with a very small department of guys working at WOTC.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 15, 2023, 04:56:23 PM
You can call it a pony if you want I was making the point that this had nothing to do with saying ANYTHING about consumers of WOTC products and it just has to do with a very small department of guys working at WOTC.
I've noticed this sort of posting style on this and other forums I frequent...someone comes to an obvious conclusion about what was said, on video, and a shill will appear and say something of the effect of, "That's not what they meant! Don't believe your eyes/ears!" Interesting.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 15, 2023, 04:56:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 09, 2023, 02:16:06 AM
In case you didn't get it that's sarcasm, not only he WAS talking about the player base, but your defense of the racist and sexist fuck doesn't make things any better.
You can call it a pony if you want I was making the point that this had nothing to do with saying ANYTHING about consumers of WOTC products and it just has to do with a very small department of guys working at WOTC.
I posted the transcript in the other thread. Here it is again:
QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?
Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.
These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.
(#1) Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.
(#2) And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.
(#3) And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.
And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.
I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.
I added in bold markers for sections #1, #2, and #3.
In #1, he's admitting that the D&D management is 100% white male, but he is claiming that the current player base is less than majority white male (meaning under 50%).
In #2, he's saying that his target is for the management to look like the current player base. I presume this means having similar race/gender demographics, which would mean less than 50% white male.
In #3, he says that "guys like him" can't leave soon enough.
-----
I read it as him talking about the D&D management - reiterating his previous points. That was the question asked of him, and what he had been talking about. But one can make of it what one wills.
I don't believe him, but I think he was trying to explain why D&D management is 100% white male - and why he claims that is going to change.
Quote from: jhkim on February 15, 2023, 05:52:56 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 15, 2023, 04:56:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 09, 2023, 02:16:06 AM
In case you didn't get it that's sarcasm, not only he WAS talking about the player base, but your defense of the racist and sexist fuck doesn't make things any better.
You can call it a pony if you want I was making the point that this had nothing to do with saying ANYTHING about consumers of WOTC products and it just has to do with a very small department of guys working at WOTC.
I posted the transcript in the other thread. Here it is again:
QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?
Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.
These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.
(#1) Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.
(#2) And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.
(#3) And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.
And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.
I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.
I added in bold markers for sections #1, #2, and #3.
In #1, he's admitting that the D&D management is 100% white male, but he is claiming that the current player base is less than majority white male (meaning under 50%).
In #2, he's saying that his target is for the management to look like the current player base. I presume this means having similar race/gender demographics, which would mean less than 50% white male.
In #3, he says that "guys like him" can't leave soon enough.
-----
I read it as him talking about the D&D management - reiterating his previous points. That was the question asked of him, and what he had been talking about. But one can make of it what one wills.
I don't believe him, but I think he was trying to explain why D&D management is 100% white male - and why he claims that is going to change.
Using your own words from the other thread:
"It would be better for this hobby if (insert any group except white straight men) would leave the workforce"
Do you see the problem now? If you don't then there's no hope for you.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 15, 2023, 08:20:52 PM
Using your own words from the other thread:
"It would be better for this hobby if (insert any group except white straight men) would leave the workforce"
Do you see the problem now? If you don't then there's no hope for you.
jhkim is a hardcore California leftist, so it's no surprise his thoughts on the matter align perfectly with whatever the current line of bullshit reasoning is to justify this sort of crap.
Quote from: Wtrmute on February 09, 2023, 10:38:02 AM
... Also directing COVID funds into minority neighbourhoods (or, in the past, directing housing subsidies preferentially to majority-white neighbourhoods) isn't systemic racism, just plain racism.
No it's not. It's merely directing more funds to communities that are more adversely affected. It's a fact that black people have stronger symptoms from Covid than others (possibly due to genetics, but also possible because of an overlap with obesity, which also exaccerbates Covid symptoms). Targeting a known problem is not racism. It's the same reason police tend to patrol black communities more regularly... they simply go where the crime is. That's not racist either.
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PM
Quote from: DocJones on February 08, 2023, 07:28:51 PM
The odds of seeing a black person anywhere near their Renton headquarters is about 1 in 140.
Maybe they should move to a more diverse community.
One where "marginalized" people can afford to live and work.
Where are you getting that? From the census data I see, the city of Renton is 48% white, 24% Asian, 11% mixed race, and 8% black. (Also 15% Hispanic or Latino of all races.)
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/rentoncitywashington
I don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed. Here on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon. And that's just people who are open about it. If I just look at the current news, I see discrimination lawsuits for supervisor behavior of "jokes" like "What's the best way to see a black man? At the end of a scope." There are also lawsuits over discrimination against whites, which exists as well. It's not like one implies that the other can't exist anywhere.
Overt racism?
I ain't American but probably the most overt and perverse displays of visceral racial hatred in the US in the past few years came from
far-left activists who had no hesitation shouting racially abusive language at black law enforcement officers for months on end in cities like Portland.
A dumb joke is a dumb joke. But having it in you to scream the n-word or the c-word at any Black man or woman who so much as wears or badge—or, God forbid, votes conservative—is exponentially
worse.
That and the fact the media and mob just genuflected before such activists like a bunch of cowards says a great deal about the left in your country. It cares more about political tribalism than it ever genuinely will about black people.
Quote from: TheGwyrigons on February 15, 2023, 10:25:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PM
I don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed. Here on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon. And that's just people who are open about it. If I just look at the current news, I see discrimination lawsuits for supervisor behavior of "jokes" like "What's the best way to see a black man? At the end of a scope." There are also lawsuits over discrimination against whites, which exists as well. It's not like one implies that the other can't exist anywhere.
Overt racism?
I ain't American but probably the most overt and perverse displays of visceral racial hatred in the US in the past few years came from far-left activists who had no hesitation shouting racially abusive language at black law enforcement officers for months on end in cities like Portland.
Hi, TheGwyrigons. You're relatively new, so I'm not sure if you're aware. When I referred to "overt racism" on these forums,
here (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/reconciliation/msg1237987/#msg1237987) is what I am talking about:
Quote from: AlathonI thought I was quite clear the first time, but I'll gladly spell it out.
1. Do you think America is and should be a nation led by white people for white people?
Is? No. Should be? Yes.
2. Do you think it's wrong for white people to have children with non-white people?
With Blacks, Africans, Aborigines, Mestizos, and semites, yes. It's marrying down in every way that truly matters. I guess some of it is eugenic, to judge by the sort of white women typically seen with mulatto babies, but it's still sad.
With the northern Asian peoples, it's more like marrying sideways, so it's a judgement call. Some limited amount of intermarriage can be healthy, as a hedge against consanguinity and to acquire beneficial genetic mutations. Couples should consider seriously the cultural challenges they take on by having two very different family trees to work with and sometimes appease.
For others (Inuit, Amerindian, south-Asian, Persian, etc..) judgement call, but they are not peers in achievement or intellect.
3. Do you think Jews secretly conspire to cause America to go to war, while controlling the finance and entertainment industry?
No, there's nothing secret about it. AIPAC operates openly. The ADL operates openly. America's warmongering in the middle east, and the deplatforming of those who criticize jews, have not been secret.
And I agree that far-left racism exists as well. As I said, both can exist at the same time.
I'd trade Alathon for jhkim in a heartbeat.
Definitely would increase the quality of the forum.
And the hobby.
I may not have agreed with Alathon, but he had the guts to express his unpopular opinions WHICH ARE EXPRESSLY PROTECTED BY THE FIRST AMENDMENT. He was quite unlike jhkim who just parrots the leftist bullshit du jour and whines non-stop like the pathetic little Bay Area bitch he is.
Quote from: Effete on February 15, 2023, 09:40:51 PM
Quote from: Wtrmute on February 09, 2023, 10:38:02 AM
... Also directing COVID funds into minority neighbourhoods (or, in the past, directing housing subsidies preferentially to majority-white neighbourhoods) isn't systemic racism, just plain racism.
No it's not. It's merely directing more funds to communities that are more adversely affected. It's a fact that black people have stronger symptoms from Covid than others (possibly due to genetics, but also possible because of an overlap with obesity, which also exaccerbates Covid symptoms). Targeting a known problem is not racism. It's the same reason police tend to patrol black communities more regularly... they simply go where the crime is. That's not racist either.
The premise is that if the funds were appropriately distributed, which doesn't mean absolutely equal distribution, then it would be simply "directing more funds to communities that are more adversely affected." The point is that the funds were skewed even
beyond what is appropriate considering the (as far as Government rhetoric goes, non-existent) genetic differences between different populations. But my main point wasn't even that; it's that racism
is not systemic unless it is codified into law, and the distribution of funds by a bureaucratic organisation doesn't meet that standard.
Quote from: tenbones on February 15, 2023, 10:35:45 AM
Well I think you all should oblige him. All the white-people should leave D&D.
I want to watch what happens.
I honestly feel bad for People of Color, being encouraged to stay with WotC products... hasn't the Left hurt them enough?
Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2023, 12:22:51 AM
Quote from: TheGwyrigons on February 15, 2023, 10:25:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PM
I don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed. Here on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon. And that's just people who are open about it. If I just look at the current news, I see discrimination lawsuits for supervisor behavior of "jokes" like "What's the best way to see a black man? At the end of a scope." There are also lawsuits over discrimination against whites, which exists as well. It's not like one implies that the other can't exist anywhere.
Overt racism?
I ain't American but probably the most overt and perverse displays of visceral racial hatred in the US in the past few years came from far-left activists who had no hesitation shouting racially abusive language at black law enforcement officers for months on end in cities like Portland.
Hi, TheGwyrigons. You're relatively new, so I'm not sure if you're aware. When I referred to "overt racism" on these forums, here (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/reconciliation/msg1237987/#msg1237987) is what I am talking about:
Quote from: AlathonI thought I was quite clear the first time, but I'll gladly spell it out.
1. Do you think America is and should be a nation led by white people for white people?
Is? No. Should be? Yes.
2. Do you think it's wrong for white people to have children with non-white people?
With Blacks, Africans, Aborigines, Mestizos, and semites, yes. It's marrying down in every way that truly matters. I guess some of it is eugenic, to judge by the sort of white women typically seen with mulatto babies, but it's still sad.
With the northern Asian peoples, it's more like marrying sideways, so it's a judgement call. Some limited amount of intermarriage can be healthy, as a hedge against consanguinity and to acquire beneficial genetic mutations. Couples should consider seriously the cultural challenges they take on by having two very different family trees to work with and sometimes appease.
For others (Inuit, Amerindian, south-Asian, Persian, etc..) judgement call, but they are not peers in achievement or intellect.
3. Do you think Jews secretly conspire to cause America to go to war, while controlling the finance and entertainment industry?
No, there's nothing secret about it. AIPAC operates openly. The ADL operates openly. America's warmongering in the middle east, and the deplatforming of those who criticize jews, have not been secret.
And I agree that far-left racism exists as well. As I said, both can exist at the same time.
Real classy sharing that, without stating that it's written by someone who was immediately banned for racism. Especially since this is in a public thread, and that's in a members-only thread so people could assume that's acceptable behavior here.
Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2023, 12:22:51 AM
Quote from: TheGwyrigons on February 15, 2023, 10:25:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PM
I don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed. Here on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon. And that's just people who are open about it. If I just look at the current news, I see discrimination lawsuits for supervisor behavior of "jokes" like "What's the best way to see a black man? At the end of a scope." There are also lawsuits over discrimination against whites, which exists as well. It's not like one implies that the other can't exist anywhere.
Overt racism?
I ain't American but probably the most overt and perverse displays of visceral racial hatred in the US in the past few years came from far-left activists who had no hesitation shouting racially abusive language at black law enforcement officers for months on end in cities like Portland.
Hi, TheGwyrigons. You're relatively new, so I'm not sure if you're aware. When I referred to "overt racism" on these forums, here (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/reconciliation/msg1237987/#msg1237987) is what I am talking about:
Quote from: AlathonI thought I was quite clear the first time, but I'll gladly spell it out.
1. Do you think America is and should be a nation led by white people for white people?
Is? No. Should be? Yes.
2. Do you think it's wrong for white people to have children with non-white people?
With Blacks, Africans, Aborigines, Mestizos, and semites, yes. It's marrying down in every way that truly matters. I guess some of it is eugenic, to judge by the sort of white women typically seen with mulatto babies, but it's still sad.
With the northern Asian peoples, it's more like marrying sideways, so it's a judgement call. Some limited amount of intermarriage can be healthy, as a hedge against consanguinity and to acquire beneficial genetic mutations. Couples should consider seriously the cultural challenges they take on by having two very different family trees to work with and sometimes appease.
For others (Inuit, Amerindian, south-Asian, Persian, etc..) judgement call, but they are not peers in achievement or intellect.
3. Do you think Jews secretly conspire to cause America to go to war, while controlling the finance and entertainment industry?
No, there's nothing secret about it. AIPAC operates openly. The ADL operates openly. America's warmongering in the middle east, and the deplatforming of those who criticize jews, have not been secret.
And I agree that far-left racism exists as well. As I said, both can exist at the same time.
Yes, once again roll out the one guy we had, who was instantly banned, and stand him up against LEGIONS of lefty nutjobs; then declare apples to be oranges.
EDIT: Removed throwaway comment as I'm wary of 'no politics' rule.
Quote from: RPGPundit on February 16, 2023, 07:44:23 AM
Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2023, 12:22:51 AM
Quote from: TheGwyrigons on February 15, 2023, 10:25:48 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 08, 2023, 08:52:46 PM
I don't think that percentages are proof of bias, but I also don't think that all racism and sexism are long gone from society, as Grognard GM has claimed. Here on theRPGsite, we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon. And that's just people who are open about it. If I just look at the current news, I see discrimination lawsuits for supervisor behavior of "jokes" like "What's the best way to see a black man? At the end of a scope." There are also lawsuits over discrimination against whites, which exists as well. It's not like one implies that the other can't exist anywhere.
Overt racism?
I ain't American but probably the most overt and perverse displays of visceral racial hatred in the US in the past few years came from far-left activists who had no hesitation shouting racially abusive language at black law enforcement officers for months on end in cities like Portland.
Hi, TheGwyrigons. You're relatively new, so I'm not sure if you're aware. When I referred to "overt racism" on these forums, here (https://www.therpgsite.com/the-rpgpundit-s-own-forum/reconciliation/msg1237987/#msg1237987) is what I am talking about:
Quote from: AlathonI thought I was quite clear the first time, but I'll gladly spell it out.
1. Do you think America is and should be a nation led by white people for white people?
Is? No. Should be? Yes.
2. Do you think it's wrong for white people to have children with non-white people?
With Blacks, Africans, Aborigines, Mestizos, and semites, yes. It's marrying down in every way that truly matters. I guess some of it is eugenic, to judge by the sort of white women typically seen with mulatto babies, but it's still sad.
With the northern Asian peoples, it's more like marrying sideways, so it's a judgement call. Some limited amount of intermarriage can be healthy, as a hedge against consanguinity and to acquire beneficial genetic mutations. Couples should consider seriously the cultural challenges they take on by having two very different family trees to work with and sometimes appease.
For others (Inuit, Amerindian, south-Asian, Persian, etc..) judgement call, but they are not peers in achievement or intellect.
3. Do you think Jews secretly conspire to cause America to go to war, while controlling the finance and entertainment industry?
No, there's nothing secret about it. AIPAC operates openly. The ADL operates openly. America's warmongering in the middle east, and the deplatforming of those who criticize jews, have not been secret.
And I agree that far-left racism exists as well. As I said, both can exist at the same time.
Real classy sharing that, without stating that it's written by someone who was immediately banned for racism. Especially since this is in a public thread, and that's in a members-only thread so people could assume that's acceptable behavior here.
Pundit, I'm sorry if that crossed a line -- but I did explicitly say that they were banned. My words - quoted and now put in bold above - were "we've had three notable bannings for overt racism in the last year or so - griswald, psiandco, and Alathon".
TheGwyrigons in reply suggest that he was doubtful about my claim of "overt racism", so I posted back to show him what I was talking about.
Quote from: Brad on February 15, 2023, 05:36:57 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 15, 2023, 04:56:23 PM
You can call it a pony if you want I was making the point that this had nothing to do with saying ANYTHING about consumers of WOTC products and it just has to do with a very small department of guys working at WOTC.
I've noticed this sort of posting style on this and other forums I frequent...someone comes to an obvious conclusion about what was said, on video, and a shill will appear and say something of the effect of, "That's not what they meant! Don't believe your eyes/ears!" Interesting.
Fortunately I have proof supporting my position and you don't.
Treantmonk is coming out with a great video with actual full context clips of these quotes that's still short enough for people to watch (on Patreon now but public in a couple days). Kyle's position is so utterly, completely clear to be not about the consumers that anyone honest who watches the full quote will know you're either lying or misinformed in your position. It's not a shill to say "this is what he said" it's just the truth. And if the truth bothers you, go write your fan fiction about WOTC.
Now you can think he's lying, and that's totally fair. But to claim what he says is what you're claiming he says, that part is just plain false. If you believe your eyes and ears, then he's very VERY clearly talking about his management team. There is no doubt or question about that. No reasonable person can watch the actual video in context and come away thinking he SAID it's about the consumers that cannot leave fast enough. To get there, you have to assume he's lying.
[And while we're talking for a moment I owe you an apology for an earlier accusation which I was badly mistaken about. I can't send it to you because you have PMs blocked, and if you want me to make it here publicly I am fine doing that, but I wanted you to know I was wrong and you were right and I am sorry and feel like shit for making that accusation about you which was false. I had you mixed up with someone else here but that's my recklessness in not checking]
Quote from: jhkim on February 15, 2023, 05:52:56 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 15, 2023, 04:56:23 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 09, 2023, 02:16:06 AM
In case you didn't get it that's sarcasm, not only he WAS talking about the player base, but your defense of the racist and sexist fuck doesn't make things any better.
You can call it a pony if you want I was making the point that this had nothing to do with saying ANYTHING about consumers of WOTC products and it just has to do with a very small department of guys working at WOTC.
I posted the transcript in the other thread. Here it is again:
QuoteJeremy Cobb: Can you identify any higher ranking positions that have been filled by people of racially diverse backgrounds?
Kyle Brink: I think if you look at the credits of our books, you'll see some lead designers there who are not cis men. You will also see a lot of primary authors on sources.
These are people who are coming up through the ranks and proving themselves and earning their respect not because of who they are but because of how they are as professionals - which is the best kind of respect. You don't want to be respected because you're the diversity hire. You want to be respected because you're awesome at your job. And that's happening more and more.
(#1) Guys like me, we're leaving the workforce, to be blunt. We're not the face of the hobby anymore. I'm not the majority of this hobby anymore.
(#2) And so it's important to me that my team of creators look like my players, and have the lived experience that my players do.
(#3) And I think there's been mistakes made in years past where people assumed that D&D players were all, y'know, white dudes in a basement. Which has been a faulty assumption for a lot of years and gets more and more false every day and so in my viewpoint, honestly, guys like me can't leave soon enough for this hobby.
And we owe you good games; we owe you good products. And so we need to make sure that everybody working on it is real good at it. And that means not just hiring but also developing. When we bring people in who are good, we need to empower them - give them more room to run. Give them guidance on what we learned when we were creating stuff so that they can create great stuff too.
I always hire people smarter than me, so that I can get out of their way. That's my approach. So as long as we stay on this trajectory, the face of D&D will literally change.
I added in bold markers for sections #1, #2, and #3.
In #1, he's admitting that the D&D management is 100% white male, but he is claiming that the current player base is less than majority white male (meaning under 50%).
In #2, he's saying that his target is for the management to look like the current player base. I presume this means having similar race/gender demographics, which would mean less than 50% white male.
In #3, he says that "guys like him" can't leave soon enough.
-----
I read it as him talking about the D&D management - reiterating his previous points. That was the question asked of him, and what he had been talking about. But one can make of it what one wills.
I don't believe him, but I think he was trying to explain why D&D management is 100% white male - and why he claims that is going to change.
There is even more than just those three points if you have the full clip but yes, he's obviously talking about his small management team and anyone honest knows that immediately if they're actually watching what he said.
But it doesn't match with people's anti-woke agenda, so people twist it here and then make outrageous claims like Brad just did that what was actually said is the opposite of what was said and everyone except a shill knows that....despite reality not in any way matching that claim.
I mean Brad, and you, can call Kyle a liar sure. But at least admit what he said.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 16, 2023, 11:44:17 AM
There is even more than just those three points if you have the full clip but yes, he's obviously talking about his small management team and anyone honest knows that immediately if they're actually watching what he said.
But it doesn't match with people's anti-woke agenda, so people twist it here and then make outrageous claims like Brad just did that what was actually said is the opposite of what was said and everyone except a shill knows that....despite reality not in any way matching that claim.
I mean Brad, and you, can call Kyle a liar sure. But at least admit what he said.
Corporation X big wig2: We discriminate by race and sex on hiring (something he admited on a different podcast)
Corporation X big wig2: In my view white straight men can't leave the workforce at Corporation X fast enough for this hobby.
People: That's fucking racist, sexist and it shows what Corporation X thinks/feels about their customers of said demographic.
Mistwell: He didn't said gamers should leave the hobby!
Dude, would you say that if they were racially discriminating against black people it would be a safe bet to assume they hate the black people that are customers of theirs?
By all means keep caping for the racist/sexist megacorporation.
Obi-Wan Wokobi: "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view."
Luke: "A certain point of view?"
Obi-Wan Wokobi: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:51:51 AM
Corporation X big wig2: We discriminate by race and sex on hiring (something he admited on a different podcast)
Corporation X big wig2: In my view white straight men can't leave the workforce at Corporation X fast enough for this hobby.
People: That's fucking racist, sexist and it shows what Corporation X thinks/feels about their customers of said demographic.
Mistwell: He didn't said gamers should leave the hobby!
Dude, would you say that if they were racially discriminating against black people it would be a safe bet to assume they hate the black people that are customers of theirs?
By all means keep caping for the racist/sexist megacorporation.
I will say again that I think Hasbro/WotC is a soulless megacorporation, and I don't trust a damn what they say.
You are claiming that you believe they are genuinely racist and sexist against white men. I am doubtful of that claim, because the only evidence of it is a few words from one of their 100% white male management.
I think it's more likely that they are
not in fact racist and sexist against white men, and that instead, Brink was simply spouting empty words that he thought the interviewers wanted to hear.
Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2023, 01:02:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:51:51 AM
Corporation X big wig2: We discriminate by race and sex on hiring (something he admited on a different podcast)
Corporation X big wig2: In my view white straight men can't leave the workforce at Corporation X fast enough for this hobby.
People: That's fucking racist, sexist and it shows what Corporation X thinks/feels about their customers of said demographic.
Mistwell: He didn't said gamers should leave the hobby!
Dude, would you say that if they were racially discriminating against black people it would be a safe bet to assume they hate the black people that are customers of theirs?
By all means keep caping for the racist/sexist megacorporation.
I will say again that I think Hasbro/WotC is a soulless megacorporation, and I don't trust a damn what they say.
You are claiming that you believe they are genuinely racist and sexist against white men. I am doubtful of that claim, because the only evidence of it is a few words from one of their 100% white male management.
I think it's more likely that they are not in fact racist and sexist against white men, and that instead, Brink was simply spouting empty words that he thought the interviewers wanted to hear.
Yes, interviewers who were all African-American and whose entire YouTube presence is marketed as being such. Now I do think Kyle is telling the truth that he is older, and he is planning to retire in the next decade, and he does think the management should better be able to understand who their customer is by having life experiences which are more typical of their customers. He explains he started at age 11 in 1978 with D&D which puts him at age 56 and he probably doesn't have the kinds of experiences of a typical 20-something D&D customer these days. But I also think he doesn't necessarily care what race his someday-replace might be, just that they understand the marketplace better than he does at his age. But when asked directly by a front-facing African-American youtube show he's going to address it in that context. They're about race so he's going to talk about race.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 16, 2023, 01:47:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2023, 01:02:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:51:51 AM
Corporation X big wig2: We discriminate by race and sex on hiring (something he admited on a different podcast)
Corporation X big wig2: In my view white straight men can't leave the workforce at Corporation X fast enough for this hobby.
People: That's fucking racist, sexist and it shows what Corporation X thinks/feels about their customers of said demographic.
Mistwell: He didn't said gamers should leave the hobby!
Dude, would you say that if they were racially discriminating against black people it would be a safe bet to assume they hate the black people that are customers of theirs?
By all means keep caping for the racist/sexist megacorporation.
I will say again that I think Hasbro/WotC is a soulless megacorporation, and I don't trust a damn what they say.
You are claiming that you believe they are genuinely racist and sexist against white men. I am doubtful of that claim, because the only evidence of it is a few words from one of their 100% white male management.
I think it's more likely that they are not in fact racist and sexist against white men, and that instead, Brink was simply spouting empty words that he thought the interviewers wanted to hear.
Yes, interviewers who were all African-American and whose entire YouTube presence is marketed as being such. Now I do think Kyle is telling the truth that he is older, and he is planning to retire in the next decade, and he does think the management should better be able to understand who their customer is by having life experiences which are more typical of their customers. He explains he started at age 11 in 1978 with D&D which puts him at age 56 and he probably doesn't have the kinds of experiences of a typical 20-something D&D customer these days. But I also think he doesn't necessarily care what race his someday-replace might be, just that they understand the marketplace better than he does at his age. But when asked directly by a front-facing African-American youtube show he's going to address it in that context. They're about race so he's going to talk about race.
So on the other podcast where the guy was also white and he said they DO discriminate on a racial/sexual basis on their recruitment?
Like I said, you both are just caping for the megacorp. Carry on.
This back and forth about the "real racists" is a complete waste of time. At this point its a word with no meaning or just means what it has to for the leftist screeching it. Everyone accept being racist is a looong ways away from the worst thing you can be, its not illegal to be such, and it is your right to be so. Then lets just stick with x's and o's and objective facts and reality. If WOTC is anti white, so be it. If you are white and want to deal with them, go for it. If you are not and want to deal with them, do so. But once a person tells younwho they really are, or declares you their enemy, listen and believe.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:51:51 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 16, 2023, 11:44:17 AM
There is even more than just those three points if you have the full clip but yes, he's obviously talking about his small management team and anyone honest knows that immediately if they're actually watching what he said.
But it doesn't match with people's anti-woke agenda, so people twist it here and then make outrageous claims like Brad just did that what was actually said is the opposite of what was said and everyone except a shill knows that....despite reality not in any way matching that claim.
I mean Brad, and you, can call Kyle a liar sure. But at least admit what he said.
Corporation X big wig2: We discriminate by race and sex on hiring (something he admited on a different podcast)
OK let's talk about that. What he said (as opposed to your spin summary) is he wants a DIVERSE POOL OF CANDIDATES and then once he has that pool he will pick the best person for the job in that pool without regard to race. He also says right now a lot of minorities are in the lower-down ranks and working their way up through the ranks, which he is happy about because it means they will get to that pool of candidates for promotions and they will get to have that pool of diverse candidates. But he wishes it was going faster because they don't have enough qualified candidates yet in that pool.
QuoteCorporation X big wig2: In my view white straight men can't leave the workforce at Corporation X fast enough for this hobby.
Right, more spin. What he said was that he thinks, at his age of 56, that they (meaning specifically his small group of management - I think it's 7 people?) can't leave the workforce fast enough to promote people up fast enough to actually get to a diverse group of managers any time soon. He explains this pretty extensively throughout the interviews, though it's in different places. That, again, he just doesn't have the pool of diverse candidates high up enough with enough experience yet, and part of that reason is people are not retiring fast enough for there to be higher up jobs. Too many of the diverse candidates are still at the writing stage or the art stage or the editing or layout stage, and they're not even middle management yet to qualify for upper management yet so they're not in that pool to draw from to be promoted yet to upper management, and part of that logjam is "The Cis White Men" (he doesn't say straight) are not leaving their workforce at the upper levels so it's going slow. But they promote from within, and they promote based on experience to qualify for a pool of candidates, and he's proof of that as he's only been in that job (again at age 56) for two years and he got the job because he worked his way up through the system like everyone else.
None of that, to me, is racist employment policies. It's understandable frustration that they're just not making progress, but they're not going to promote inexperienced people to make that progress. Which, had you actually watched the videos (which are long and there are like 5 of them now so it's understandable you have not) you would have seen all of that.
QuotePeople: That's fucking racist, sexist and it shows what Corporation X thinks/feels about their customers of said demographic.
Mistwell: He didn't said gamers should leave the hobby!
Right but they clearly don't feel that about their customers. EVERYTHING they've done and said disputes that. They 1) want more money, not less, and shooing away a huge chunk of their fanbase would run counter that very clearly stated goal, and 2) they have not actually DONE any of that as all of their managers are cis white older males right now, and 3) they don't say any of that either.
So when ZERO evidence supports your assumptions, you should question your assumptions rather than double and triple down on them.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 01:50:42 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 16, 2023, 01:47:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2023, 01:02:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:51:51 AM
Corporation X big wig2: We discriminate by race and sex on hiring (something he admited on a different podcast)
Corporation X big wig2: In my view white straight men can't leave the workforce at Corporation X fast enough for this hobby.
People: That's fucking racist, sexist and it shows what Corporation X thinks/feels about their customers of said demographic.
Mistwell: He didn't said gamers should leave the hobby!
Dude, would you say that if they were racially discriminating against black people it would be a safe bet to assume they hate the black people that are customers of theirs?
By all means keep caping for the racist/sexist megacorporation.
I will say again that I think Hasbro/WotC is a soulless megacorporation, and I don't trust a damn what they say.
You are claiming that you believe they are genuinely racist and sexist against white men. I am doubtful of that claim, because the only evidence of it is a few words from one of their 100% white male management.
I think it's more likely that they are not in fact racist and sexist against white men, and that instead, Brink was simply spouting empty words that he thought the interviewers wanted to hear.
Yes, interviewers who were all African-American and whose entire YouTube presence is marketed as being such. Now I do think Kyle is telling the truth that he is older, and he is planning to retire in the next decade, and he does think the management should better be able to understand who their customer is by having life experiences which are more typical of their customers. He explains he started at age 11 in 1978 with D&D which puts him at age 56 and he probably doesn't have the kinds of experiences of a typical 20-something D&D customer these days. But I also think he doesn't necessarily care what race his someday-replace might be, just that they understand the marketplace better than he does at his age. But when asked directly by a front-facing African-American youtube show he's going to address it in that context. They're about race so he's going to talk about race.
So on the other podcast where the guy was also white and he said they DO discriminate on a racial/sexual basis on their recruitment?
Like I said, you both are just caping for the megacorp. Carry on.
He doesn't say that in that video though, but I already replied about that.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 16, 2023, 01:55:35 PM
This back and forth about the "real racists" is a complete waste of time. At this point its a word with no meaning or just means what it has to for the leftist screeching it. Everyone accept being racist is a looong ways away from the worst thing you can be, its not illegal to be such, and it is your right to be so. Then lets just stick with x's and o's and objective facts and reality. If WOTC is anti white, so be it. If you are white and want to deal with them, go for it. If you are not and want to deal with them, do so. But once a person tells younwho they really are, or declares you their enemy, listen and believe.
We're disputing, directly and with evidence, that they "told you who they really are" or that they have "declared you their enemy". So yes, listen and believe, but START with the listen to what they actually say as opposed to some snippets some dude looking for clicks is telling you they said here.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 16, 2023, 02:01:17 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 01:50:42 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 16, 2023, 01:47:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2023, 01:02:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:51:51 AM
Corporation X big wig2: We discriminate by race and sex on hiring (something he admited on a different podcast)
Corporation X big wig2: In my view white straight men can't leave the workforce at Corporation X fast enough for this hobby.
People: That's fucking racist, sexist and it shows what Corporation X thinks/feels about their customers of said demographic.
Mistwell: He didn't said gamers should leave the hobby!
Dude, would you say that if they were racially discriminating against black people it would be a safe bet to assume they hate the black people that are customers of theirs?
By all means keep caping for the racist/sexist megacorporation.
I will say again that I think Hasbro/WotC is a soulless megacorporation, and I don't trust a damn what they say.
You are claiming that you believe they are genuinely racist and sexist against white men. I am doubtful of that claim, because the only evidence of it is a few words from one of their 100% white male management.
I think it's more likely that they are not in fact racist and sexist against white men, and that instead, Brink was simply spouting empty words that he thought the interviewers wanted to hear.
Yes, interviewers who were all African-American and whose entire YouTube presence is marketed as being such. Now I do think Kyle is telling the truth that he is older, and he is planning to retire in the next decade, and he does think the management should better be able to understand who their customer is by having life experiences which are more typical of their customers. He explains he started at age 11 in 1978 with D&D which puts him at age 56 and he probably doesn't have the kinds of experiences of a typical 20-something D&D customer these days. But I also think he doesn't necessarily care what race his someday-replace might be, just that they understand the marketplace better than he does at his age. But when asked directly by a front-facing African-American youtube show he's going to address it in that context. They're about race so he's going to talk about race.
So on the other podcast where the guy was also white and he said they DO discriminate on a racial/sexual basis on their recruitment?
Like I said, you both are just caping for the megacorp. Carry on.
He doesn't say that in that video though, but I already replied about that.
https://archive.is/lZ4rL (https://archive.is/lZ4rL)
"The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate."
But I'm sure enworld is a right wing rag pushing lies to defame WotC
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 02:12:22 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 16, 2023, 02:01:17 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 01:50:42 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 16, 2023, 01:47:18 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 16, 2023, 01:02:52 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 11:51:51 AM
Corporation X big wig2: We discriminate by race and sex on hiring (something he admited on a different podcast)
Corporation X big wig2: In my view white straight men can't leave the workforce at Corporation X fast enough for this hobby.
People: That's fucking racist, sexist and it shows what Corporation X thinks/feels about their customers of said demographic.
Mistwell: He didn't said gamers should leave the hobby!
Dude, would you say that if they were racially discriminating against black people it would be a safe bet to assume they hate the black people that are customers of theirs?
By all means keep caping for the racist/sexist megacorporation.
I will say again that I think Hasbro/WotC is a soulless megacorporation, and I don't trust a damn what they say.
You are claiming that you believe they are genuinely racist and sexist against white men. I am doubtful of that claim, because the only evidence of it is a few words from one of their 100% white male management.
I think it's more likely that they are not in fact racist and sexist against white men, and that instead, Brink was simply spouting empty words that he thought the interviewers wanted to hear.
Yes, interviewers who were all African-American and whose entire YouTube presence is marketed as being such. Now I do think Kyle is telling the truth that he is older, and he is planning to retire in the next decade, and he does think the management should better be able to understand who their customer is by having life experiences which are more typical of their customers. He explains he started at age 11 in 1978 with D&D which puts him at age 56 and he probably doesn't have the kinds of experiences of a typical 20-something D&D customer these days. But I also think he doesn't necessarily care what race his someday-replace might be, just that they understand the marketplace better than he does at his age. But when asked directly by a front-facing African-American youtube show he's going to address it in that context. They're about race so he's going to talk about race.
So on the other podcast where the guy was also white and he said they DO discriminate on a racial/sexual basis on their recruitment?
Like I said, you both are just caping for the megacorp. Carry on.
He doesn't say that in that video though, but I already replied about that.
https://archive.is/lZ4rL (https://archive.is/lZ4rL)
"The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate."
But I'm sure enworld is a right wing rag pushing lies to defame WotC
No that is exactly repeating what I said, but not what you said. What I think is happening here is you don't understand that sentence and think it means something different?
When I said they want a diverse pool of qualified candidates and then they choose the best candidate from that pool, what did you think I meant which would be different from "The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate."
And if you agree I said the same thing, then what the heck do you think that sentence is saying? Are you imagining "equity target" means "must meet this even by promoting unqualified candidates?" Are you imagining they dismiss qualified white cis men so they can put trans black women in the pool? They don't and that's not what an equity target means. It means "This is what we're aiming for, so lets do better to ATTRACT MORE QUALIFIED CANDIDATES WHO MATCH THAT TARGET TO APPLY TO OUR JOBS." That's not "racial discrimination." What, are you pissed you might have to compete with black people for the same job, even if they're giving the job to the best candidate between you and an equally qualified black person? If that's not what you're pissed about, WTF is pissing you off about an equity target for a candidate pool?
Here, again, is what I said further on that. It's correct and matches with that quote, you just don't seem to understand the quote I guess and think it's some gotcha?
Quote from: MistwellWhat he said was that he thinks, at his age of 56, that they (meaning specifically his small group of management - I think it's 7 people?) can't leave the workforce fast enough to promote people up fast enough to actually get to a diverse group of managers any time soon. He explains this pretty extensively throughout the interviews, though it's in different places. That, again, he just doesn't have the pool of diverse candidates high up enough with enough experience yet, and part of that reason is people are not retiring fast enough for there to be higher up jobs. Too many of the diverse candidates are still at the writing stage or the art stage or the editing or layout stage, and they're not even middle management yet to qualify for upper management yet so they're not in that pool to draw from to be promoted yet to upper management, and part of that logjam is "The Cis White Men" (he doesn't say straight) are not leaving their workforce at the upper levels so it's going slow. But they promote from within, and they promote based on experience to qualify for a pool of candidates, and he's proof of that as he's only been in that job (again at age 56) for two years and he got the job because he worked his way up through the system like everyone else.
None of that, to me, is racist employment policies. It's understandable frustration that they're just not making progress, but they're not going to promote inexperienced people to make that progress. Which, had you actually watched the videos (which are long and there are like 5 of them now so it's understandable you have not) you would have seen all of that.
Mistwell: You can't be this dense, we KNOW what "equity" means, it means discriminating against white straight people (men mostly), because it means you are paying attention to the race/sex/sexuality of those you accept as candidates to fill up a quota, there's no fucking way to achieve "equity" without discrimination.
But you carry on capping for the racist and sexist megacorporation.
It's incredibly dishonest to pretend like disqualifying applicants from a given position, purely because they are White (or Male, or not sexual deviants) isn't discrimination. The desperate confabulation isn't fooling anyone.
Quote from: Zelen on February 16, 2023, 06:38:08 PM
It's incredibly dishonest to pretend like disqualifying applicants from a given position, purely because they are White (or Male, or not sexual deviants) isn't discrimination. The desperate confabulation isn't fooling anyone.
Ah but the conceit is that ultra competent women and minorities have been clamouring to get in to places, only to be turned away purely because of characteristics, while incompetent white guys get an auto-pass. So no matter how much you block white guys, you're just balancing the systemic -isms and good lord my brain is leaking out of my ear.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 16, 2023, 01:47:18 PMNow I do think Kyle is telling the truth that he is older, and he is planning to retire in the next decade, and he does think the management should better be able to understand who their customer is by having life experiences which are more typical of their customers.
Gotta love how all across the West, rich old white guys pull the ladders up after them, in a way that, had their forebears done so, they themselves would never have gotten a chance. Fuck you, I've got mine, time to throw you to the circling sharks so I can die in peace.
Also they're not hiring by life experience. A table with 4 white guys (wealthy NY Jew, Appalachian coal miner, Texas rancher, and a inner city teacher) would have way more diversity than 4 black people from the same Ivy league schools.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 17, 2023, 12:22:03 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 16, 2023, 01:47:18 PMNow I do think Kyle is telling the truth that he is older, and he is planning to retire in the next decade, and he does think the management should better be able to understand who their customer is by having life experiences which are more typical of their customers.
Gotta love how all across the West, rich old white guys pull the ladders up after them, in a way that, had their forebears done so, they themselves would never have gotten a chance. Fuck you, I've got mine, time to throw you to the circling sharks so I can die in peace.
Also they're not hiring by life experience. A table with 4 white guys (wealthy NY Jew, Appalachian coal miner, Texas rancher, and a inner city teacher) would have way more diversity than 4 black people from the same Ivy league schools.
Ah, but you forget that to the "Anti-Racist" Race = Culture/Life Experience, unlike the racists who think that Life Experience/Culture = Race.
the eagles done wrote this one "already gone" I think it's called.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 17, 2023, 12:15:47 AM
Quote from: Zelen on February 16, 2023, 06:38:08 PM
It's incredibly dishonest to pretend like disqualifying applicants from a given position, purely because they are White (or Male, or not sexual deviants) isn't discrimination. The desperate confabulation isn't fooling anyone.
Ah but the conceit is that ultra competent women and minorities have been clamouring to get in to places, only to be turned away purely because of characteristics, while incompetent white guys get an auto-pass. So no matter how much you block white guys, you're just balancing the systemic -isms and good lord my brain is leaking out of my ear.
thats the inverse of my observed reality though; I see people pushed ahead with no merit based on gender race religion or what they stick their dirty lil peckers in ahead of people with decades of xp in the skill or field. Worse I've worked in those environments and its always the same, the woman in charge is made of fail and oblivious to double standards in front of her face...like check this out:
one day the forklift was down the spare was borrowed by plant one but we had crates of trannies to move (automotive you perv) so bitch tits hollers at the guys to push these things....not the girls which make up like 60% of the dept....I said wtf lady, she says "oh ya'll are bigger and stronger and tougher stop whining" i says what about marys fat ass that bitch is like 4 tons of mean and fur why is her big fat ass not out here pushing? oh she could suffer a heart attack...yeah but john is the same as her but male and you got him and his impressive mass out here pushing and he even has documented heart and blood pressure issue...lady, you are a damned farce and i hope someone gets hurt so they can sue this place into the ground. after that i got shit assignments in perpetuity (until they needed a competent team to send to japan, which surprise surprise, was all white guys).
Dont get me started on that time they sent a hr lady out of the blue to lecture everyone about sexual harrasment at a time when no men would even talk to the women and the women were always getting wrote up for hovering around guys trying to work and chatting them up.
yup i want a drink and i dont need one but now my blood is up and i really really really want a bomb big enough to smash a whole in space time....just to hang on the porch ya'll don't be a bunch of tiddy babies now.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 05:20:56 PM
Mistwell: You can't be this dense, we KNOW what "equity" means, it means discriminating against white straight people (men mostly), because it means you are paying attention to the race/sex/sexuality of those you accept as candidates to fill up a quota, there's no fucking way to achieve "equity" without discrimination.
But you carry on capping for the racist and sexist megacorporation.
Here is the video. Watch it for yourself, see with your own eyes if they're saying what you and Pundit and some others claim they said. I'd bet good money people won't watch, because the risk of seeing you're wrong. Why not continue with the fantasy you're right, when you can feel good about yourself that way? But we'll see. Dare you to actually look:
Quote from: Mistwell on February 20, 2023, 03:51:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 05:20:56 PM
Mistwell: You can't be this dense, we KNOW what "equity" means, it means discriminating against white straight people (men mostly), because it means you are paying attention to the race/sex/sexuality of those you accept as candidates to fill up a quota, there's no fucking way to achieve "equity" without discrimination.
But you carry on capping for the racist and sexist megacorporation.
Here is the video. Watch it for yourself, see with your own eyes if they're saying what you and Pundit and some others claim they said. I'd bet good money people won't watch, because the risk of seeing you're wrong. Why not continue with the fantasy you're right, when you can feel good about yourself that way? But we'll see. Dare you to actually look:
[/youtube][/youtube]
What conclusion should you draw from:
"We hear your concerns over the lack of diversity in this industry,
I'm certainly not the face of the hobby anymore being a cis-straight-white-male myself,
so the company is looking for more talent of a strictly diverse and non-cswm nature
because we want this company to have a legacy of fighting patriarchal-oppressive-whiteness."
I suppose I should rip up my resume to WotC before I even write it?
You can read the corporate dishonesty in all the previous letters, but not with this?
Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 20, 2023, 04:15:40 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 20, 2023, 03:51:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 05:20:56 PM
Mistwell: You can't be this dense, we KNOW what "equity" means, it means discriminating against white straight people (men mostly), because it means you are paying attention to the race/sex/sexuality of those you accept as candidates to fill up a quota, there's no fucking way to achieve "equity" without discrimination.
But you carry on capping for the racist and sexist megacorporation.
Here is the video. Watch it for yourself, see with your own eyes if they're saying what you and Pundit and some others claim they said. I'd bet good money people won't watch, because the risk of seeing you're wrong. Why not continue with the fantasy you're right, when you can feel good about yourself that way? But we'll see. Dare you to actually look:
[/youtube][/youtube]
What conclusion should you draw from:
"We hear your concerns over the lack of diversity in this industry,
I'm certainly not the face of the hobby anymore being a cis-straight-white-male myself,
so the company is looking for more talent of a strictly diverse and non-cswm nature
because we want this company to have a legacy of fighting patriarchal-oppressive-whiteness."
I suppose I should rip up my resume to WotC before I even write it?
You can read the corporate dishonesty in all the previous letters, but not with this?
So I am right. Why believe your lying eyes and watch the actual video of what was said when you can take third-hand misquotes out of context and draw wild conclusions from it instead which match your biases, right?
Chicken.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 20, 2023, 03:51:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 05:20:56 PM
Mistwell: You can't be this dense, we KNOW what "equity" means, it means discriminating against white straight people (men mostly), because it means you are paying attention to the race/sex/sexuality of those you accept as candidates to fill up a quota, there's no fucking way to achieve "equity" without discrimination.
But you carry on capping for the racist and sexist megacorporation.
Here is the video. Watch it for yourself, see with your own eyes if they're saying what you and Pundit and some others claim they said. I'd bet good money people won't watch, because the risk of seeing you're wrong. Why not continue with the fantasy you're right, when you can feel good about yourself that way? But we'll see. Dare you to actually look:
Everyone has watched the video, we all know that Brink stated he can't wait for people who look like him to be gone. In the sentence before he made the slur, he was talking about the player base being perceived as white. So either he wants black people removed from WotC D&D staff or he wants Jews to quit playing the game. Does putting the race in it make it better? Brink was talking about white people being gone either as co-workers or gamers. It's a common left wing racist talking point when they are pandering to minorities, in this case blacks.
It was stupid for Brink to let his left wing race politics to leak in an interview. If you are a racist, keep the filth out of your public persona especially interviews.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 21, 2023, 03:45:21 AM
It was stupid for Brink to let his left wing race politics to leak in an interview. If you are a racist, keep the filth out of your public persona especially interviews.
I'm not sure it was stupid - WoTC have been working hard on 'divide & conquer' tactics, stirring up race hate, and now Brink has a bunch of lefties defending his comments. Result. Plus it was a deflection tactic - the interviewers want blacks in well paid & powerful
executive roles, so Brink starts talking about getting rid of basement dwelling white
players, & hiring poorly paid PoC
designers...
Carrying ALOT of water for a guy who made a flat out anti white statement. Why pretend the guy didnt make that clear? Must we obfuscate and hide the fact a fellow is clearly making an anti white stance? Strange for someone to run SO much interference for an anti white person.
Mistwell and other similar Woke people tend to run interference or similar when the awoke pull this kind of shit. Not sure because it goes against their personal carefully constructed personal narratives. Or simply because if they don't their equally Woke compatriots may cancel them. In any case it's pathetic. It comes off as someone in an abusive relationship making excuses for their abusers bad behaviour. And remember everyone Mistwell is not Woke not at all. Kind of like the Jewish guy who eats non-koshers meals when it suits him.
Yes I saw the video so anyone saysI need to watch it can fuck off. I lost minutes of my life watching that trash.
Quote from: Abraxus on February 21, 2023, 08:43:37 AM
Yes I saw the video so anyone saysI need to watch it can fuck off. I lost minutes of my life watching that trash.
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 21, 2023, 08:55:40 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on February 21, 2023, 08:43:37 AM
Yes I saw the video so anyone saysI need to watch it can fuck off. I lost minutes of my life watching that trash.
Remember when Apu was allowed to speak? Too bad, I guess for the ethnicity that has the highest median income in the US being shown as a business owner, with wife and large family was too much for the white left to handle. It was funny when the Indian comic was complaining when they make over $141K median compared to whites at just under $75K median. They should have Apu playing an Indian RPG for an episode... gee I wonder who wrote an Indian based RPG - wait the author isn't melanin enhanced.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 21, 2023, 09:35:38 AM
Quote from: Grognard GM on February 21, 2023, 08:55:40 AM
Quote from: Abraxus on February 21, 2023, 08:43:37 AM
Yes I saw the video so anyone saysI need to watch it can fuck off. I lost minutes of my life watching that trash.
Remember when Apu was allowed to speak? Too bad, I guess for the ethnicity that has the highest median income in the US being shown as a business owner, with wife and large family was too much for the white left to handle. It was funny when the Indian comic was complaining when they make over $141K median compared to whites at just under $75K median. They should have Apu playing an Indian RPG for an episode... gee I wonder who wrote an Indian based RPG - wait the author isn't melanin enhanced.
Just as with the Speedy Gonzales 'controversy,' the so-called victim group actually has no problem with the character, but the white saviors know better.
Don't worry a year from now, most of the people outraged about all this will bend the knee and quietly fire up their Beyond Accounts and go right into D&D 6e.
Wizards already know the white-guys that they keep kicking are already bought and paid-for. If they lose them, Hasbro/WotC *doesn't* care (they should). They're looking to lock in all the Beyond subs they can, go whale-hunting, and their brand will quietly put 5e into the same corner where 4e sits. OneD&D will become officially 6e at some point, and all the dick-riders will line up, freshly lubed, to walk into the Beyond Subscription Garden where they will get the new D&D Experience(TM) made to order.
They will lose people, sure. They already have. The question is will all the marketing to "cultural victims of oppression" float the D&D Line? I don't think so. But enough white-guilt and casual consumer-grazers will, regardless of "racism against whites" rhetoric, potentially put them in the hairline profit margin of the ledger. And that's the bet they're making.
They don't want conscious consumers after all. They want Brand loyalists that will take the punch in the face, if they get mouthy or not. The solution is simple - be that conscious consumer. Curate your game at your table - that means market non-D&D games to your players. Cultivate good GMing and through that, good playing.
It may not kill D&D... but who cares? The D&D you and I know, was a dream that doesn't really depend on Hasbro. I don't even *want* to play the D&D they're serving up. If you do - that's fine. Prepare to get blasted in the mouth, figuratively, metaphorically, and if you're really unlucky, literally.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 21, 2023, 01:25:42 AM
Quote from: ClusterFluster on February 20, 2023, 04:15:40 PM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 20, 2023, 03:51:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 05:20:56 PM
Mistwell: You can't be this dense, we KNOW what "equity" means, it means discriminating against white straight people (men mostly), because it means you are paying attention to the race/sex/sexuality of those you accept as candidates to fill up a quota, there's no fucking way to achieve "equity" without discrimination.
But you carry on capping for the racist and sexist megacorporation.
Here is the video. Watch it for yourself, see with your own eyes if they're saying what you and Pundit and some others claim they said. I'd bet good money people won't watch, because the risk of seeing you're wrong. Why not continue with the fantasy you're right, when you can feel good about yourself that way? But we'll see. Dare you to actually look:
[/youtube][/youtube]
What conclusion should you draw from:
"We hear your concerns over the lack of diversity in this industry,
I'm certainly not the face of the hobby anymore being a cis-straight-white-male myself,
so the company is looking for more talent of a strictly diverse and non-cswm nature
because we want this company to have a legacy of fighting patriarchal-oppressive-whiteness."
I suppose I should rip up my resume to WotC before I even write it?
You can read the corporate dishonesty in all the previous letters, but not with this?
So I am right. Why believe your lying eyes and watch the actual video of what was said when you can take third-hand misquotes out of context and draw wild conclusions from it instead which match your biases, right?
Chicken.
Thank God I've ignored the black DIEversity advocate's question about how they were going to put more DIEversity hires into WotC due the complete lack of DIEversity workers in the company up to this point.
Otherwise I'd have the context that made Brink's hand-gesture circling his own face imply the barrier to "competent" DIEversity hiring in WotC was people that look like him.
Hey, if there was another panelist on that stream, how many people would have been talking? Four, or Five?
Or only two people as seen in the interview because whites don't matter and blacks are akshually deities?
Has it ever occurred to you that your precious Pets of Colour don't care about D&D because they'd rather be drunk up in the club with 50 Cent and "shawty"? Even if the Wu-Tang don't fuck around like that, they all look at you wokies and think you're just pathetic losers who can't front for shit because you're a bunch of bubbly bitches.
You will never sell this game to them.
It's feel good vibes for your own majority-white maroon-movement pity-party.
Protect ya neck when you bring that mothafuckin ruckus, cracker kid, your pink feather boas won't do that for you.
I expect that in a couple of years, WotC will put out a statement making it clear that players of every race, ethnicity, sexual identity, sexual orientation, etc., are welcome, so long as they bear the Mark. ;)
Quote from: tenbones on February 21, 2023, 10:30:36 AM
Don't worry a year from now, most of the people outraged about all this will bend the knee and quietly fire up their Beyond Accounts and go right into D&D 6e.
What? No way. This has been kept under wraps pretty well. If you post the quote in context on reddit you will get downvoted and you may get your post removed, depending on the mods. If your reply gets any visibility then people will come in and lie and say it didn't happen. There's people
in this thread trying to defend it, or claim it wasn't real, when it is
right fucking there, in context.
I doubt anyone who cares about this has a Beyond account, or gives Hasbro any money. If there is even one person who does though, they'll never forgive and never forget. But overall this incident isn't well known at all in the gaming community, and it's been damage-controlled a lot, and there isn't any mass movement away from WotC for it. Oh, the guy hired to be anti-white said something anti-white? Corporate might give him a raise.
QuoteWizards already know the white-guys that they keep kicking are already bought and paid-for.
This part I agree with. Generally this is one of many events that should have been a big deal but wasn't because of how controlled the discourse is. It will take a lot of these events- like a huge montage worth- to get a regular dude to really say, ok, I guess it might be worth having to put up with gaslighters and internet warriors to actually go on the record as Somewhat Angry About This Bullshit. We aren't there yet, and I doubt we are particularly close.
Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 05:23:15 AM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 21, 2023, 03:45:21 AM
It was stupid for Brink to let his left wing race politics to leak in an interview. If you are a racist, keep the filth out of your public persona especially interviews.
I'm not sure it was stupid - WoTC have been working hard on 'divide & conquer' tactics, stirring up race hate, and now Brink has a bunch of lefties defending his comments. Result. Plus it was a deflection tactic - the interviewers want blacks in well paid & powerful executive roles, so Brink starts talking about getting rid of basement dwelling white players, & hiring poorly paid PoC designers...
I agree. I suspect that this has done exactly what it has intended. WotC hasn't had to do any action that is actually leftist - not even hire more poorly-paid PoC designers.
Instead, simply by a few words, he's changed the conversation from being about their corporate overreach of IP (which had gamers united against them) to being about oppression of white people (which left-leaning gamers won't sign on about).
"people who look like me"
I think he means four-eyed beta-cucks.
Quote from: jhkim on February 21, 2023, 11:57:38 AM
Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 05:23:15 AM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 21, 2023, 03:45:21 AM
It was stupid for Brink to let his left wing race politics to leak in an interview. If you are a racist, keep the filth out of your public persona especially interviews.
I'm not sure it was stupid - WoTC have been working hard on 'divide & conquer' tactics, stirring up race hate, and now Brink has a bunch of lefties defending his comments. Result. Plus it was a deflection tactic - the interviewers want blacks in well paid & powerful executive roles, so Brink starts talking about getting rid of basement dwelling white players, & hiring poorly paid PoC designers...
I agree. I suspect that this has done exactly what it has intended. WotC hasn't had to do any action that is actually leftist - not even hire more poorly-paid PoC designers.
Instead, simply by a few words, he's changed the conversation from being about their corporate overreach of IP (which had gamers united against them) to being about oppression of white people (which left-leaning gamers won't sign on about).
>Instead, simply by a few words, he's changed the conversation from being about their corporate overreach of IP (which had gamers united against them) to being about oppression of white people (which left-leaning gamers won't sign on about)
who can't afford to buy D&D products let alone will NOT buy D&D products.FIFY
But he did manage to piss of those white customers who listened to the interview. That interview got me to sail the high seas on all D&D content and share the method to do it with all my groups. Hey its only 12 people, but if they share with 2 more a piece that's 24 and so on. Kudo's Brink.
Other people feel the same way. I'm also OFF D&D Beyond as a platform and using Fantasy Grounds in lieu and training my players to use it as well. Again, congrats Brink. Those pesky white people who pay his paycheck IF they saw the interview are taking his advice. Virtue signaling to a socialist who lives in mommies basement isn't going to sell books.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 21, 2023, 03:37:12 PM
Those pesky white people who pay his paycheck IF they saw the interview are taking his advice. Virtue signaling to a socialist who lives in mommies basement isn't going to sell books.
Assuming we're talking about the non-self loathing variety of white people. The self loathing types are already loudly and, ironically, proudly proclaiming their suckitude by simping for Kyle and his runaway mouth. "He meant the people working at WotC!" And that's somehow supposed to make it better?
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on February 21, 2023, 04:31:22 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 21, 2023, 03:37:12 PM
Those pesky white people who pay his paycheck IF they saw the interview are taking his advice. Virtue signaling to a socialist who lives in mommies basement isn't going to sell books.
Assuming we're talking about the non-self loathing variety of white people. The self loathing types are already loudly and, ironically, proudly proclaiming their suckitude by simping for Kyle and his runaway mouth. "He meant the people working at WotC!" And that's somehow supposed to make it better?
Well, you see, WotC isn't saying they don't want the money of those evul huwhite, straight, males, they are ONLY saying they wouldn't hire them.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 21, 2023, 03:45:21 AM
Quote from: Mistwell on February 20, 2023, 03:51:13 PM
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 16, 2023, 05:20:56 PM
Mistwell: You can't be this dense, we KNOW what "equity" means, it means discriminating against white straight people (men mostly), because it means you are paying attention to the race/sex/sexuality of those you accept as candidates to fill up a quota, there's no fucking way to achieve "equity" without discrimination.
But you carry on capping for the racist and sexist megacorporation.
Here is the video. Watch it for yourself, see with your own eyes if they're saying what you and Pundit and some others claim they said. I'd bet good money people won't watch, because the risk of seeing you're wrong. Why not continue with the fantasy you're right, when you can feel good about yourself that way? But we'll see. Dare you to actually look:
Everyone has watched the video, we all know that Brink stated he can't wait for people who look like him to be gone.
Bull FUCKING shit you've watched all of the videos. It's SIX HOURS of videos. You have not watched it all. NOBODY here has watched it all. That's why I posted a link to a guy who took the bullet and did watch them all and distill all the stuff about this topic down.
Which you refuse to watch. Because you'd rather believe the bullshit rather than see for yourself.
QuoteIn the sentence before he made the slur
Naw naw naw that topic is throughout the videos, not in just one paragraph. See, I knew you guys had no clue what you were talking about.
Watch the fucking video I linked to. You will see WAY more than you have so far.
Quote from: oggsmash on February 21, 2023, 05:24:13 AM
Carrying ALOT of water for a guy who made a flat out anti white statement. Why pretend the guy didnt make that clear? Must we obfuscate and hide the fact a fellow is clearly making an anti white stance? Strange for someone to run SO much interference for an anti white person.
Did you watch the video I linked to? No of course you didn't. Because the narrative you're pushing is more fun than actually seeing for yourself. The real, full thing and not the out of context clip.
Quote from: Abraxus on February 21, 2023, 08:43:37 AM
Mistwell and other similar Woke people tend to run interference or similar when the awoke pull this kind of shit. Not sure because it goes against their personal carefully constructed personal narratives. Or simply because if they don't their equally Woke compatriots may cancel them. In any case it's pathetic. It comes off as someone in an abusive relationship making excuses for their abusers bad behaviour. And remember everyone Mistwell is not Woke not at all. Kind of like the Jewish guy who eats non-koshers meals when it suits him.
Yes I saw the video so anyone saysI need to watch it can fuck off. I lost minutes of my life watching that trash.
The Treantmonk video I posted? I call bullshit. You would not be calling me and that video "woke" if you had. No you watched the one paragraph out of context clip, just like everyone else here. Because watching the Treantmonk video (a guy who is definitely not woke) would risk you being wrong.
"Hey dudes, there's this long video where some Hasbro exec literally says he wishes the company was run by someone like Hitler."
"He didn't advocate for Hasbro being run by Hitler. You didn't watch the whole video. He was talking about something else entirely."
"Pretty sure he said the company would be better if Hitler were running it."
"Whatever, idiot. He used the name Hitler as a metaphor, you dumbass uneducated rube. You're taking the whole thing out of context."
"HERE IS HIM SAYING HASBRO WOULD BE BETTER IF HITLER RAN IT!"
"You're imagining antisemitism. Where's the tinfoil hat? LOL!"
Etc.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 21, 2023, 08:20:38 PM
Quote from: oggsmash on February 21, 2023, 05:24:13 AM
Carrying ALOT of water for a guy who made a flat out anti white statement. Why pretend the guy didnt make that clear? Must we obfuscate and hide the fact a fellow is clearly making an anti white stance? Strange for someone to run SO much interference for an anti white person.
Did you watch the video I linked to? No of course you didn't. Because the narrative you're pushing is more fun than actually seeing for yourself. The real, full thing and not the out of context clip.
The most relevant part of your precious video is between a 11:05 to 14:00 timestamp. That's it, that's all the clip you need, the rest is tedious public relations bullshit. ***
The even more relevant piece of that timestamp is in the interviewer's boot licking question between 11:05 to 11:50: "Can you identify anybody who isn't a Nazi holding leading positions in your company yet? Because WotC still has Nazis in their company - like Mike Mearls! - and we can't squeeze more woke-lackeys into the company until they all leave, and by the way, all whites are feral cannibals that make me look both ways before I cross the street so that they can commune better with their blighted gods of first world problems".
Because the interviewer seems to think that all those straight white males are getting in the way of political rejects holding any positions of power in WotC, just like how your pal there is running two-faced lies to swindle the easily spastic. And the joke is that white women think they'll be exempt from the chopping block they stuck their men on.
Your guy speaking in your not at all commercialist and sanctimonious video literally restates the question made by your pet concern scowler that leads to Brink agreeing with whites still being walking tumours upon this earth graced to us by our God-given liberal world. You can see Brink draw the circle around his face saying: "Fuck this fucking thing!"
Nothing else about this video matters.
Like, yay! I now know who Brink reports to IN HIS CORPORATE HIERARCHY, great, wonderful, abso-fucking-lutely reassuring, how could I possibly feel like I'm being replaced if my not being HIERARCHIALLY HIRED INTO A CORPORATION is not the same bullshit being walked back from a safer position so you can let us calm down first and bring back the pressure later?
And
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!! looky!
A new SRD that won't pander to your fake livestream games so you won't notice your wallet being taken for real this time while they put another "let's not be wAyCiSt fellow pleopoes!!!!1!!" sticker over your eyelids!
Plus: something something OneDND and D&D Beyond will save us all from those dastardly nasty white people who
TuK
UhR
JERRRRRRBBBBBBBBBBBBBSSSSsssssss!
AD VOMITORIUM
*** [Several warranted edits later:
And what's great is when you can find a guy to absolutely lose his shit on the *Internet* so that you can invent further justification for more "peaceful protests", where you can dress up as rebels with a cause for a week while burning down the cities that you hate living in. Because that's the plan, isn't it? Your friends have the proof that you need for speech to cause violence and then YOUR FRIENDS START DOING THE VIOLENCE.
You've noticed that no one can even stay in their own homes and say something as meekly pro-white as "It's Okay to Be White" on a message board, without losing their jobs and sometimes their own homes? The entirety of the opposition against this shit can only be framed as "anti-woke" as a bare minimum of token of resistance, which suits you just fine because we then have to play your assigned role of cranky obstructions to "Progress!"
I can't exactly blame non-whites for not taking an explicitly pro-white stance, they're not my folk at the end of the day and I'm not theirs, but the ones who have noticed how stacked this deck is for anti-white wokeness will get burned with insane labels like "internalized colonialism" or similar bullshit. Asians still want to go to the schools in America that you demand they emigrate to attend, but when they speak out against being sidelined from admissions for the favour of black affirmative action? "This is clearly a case of white supremacy!" Even part-whites aren't spared when they let their basic pattern recognition and common sense inform their love for their families, forget the political opinions.
It's pattern recognition at play here when its obvious that you're apologizing for woke trying to regroup. Your movement is collapsing and your willing to thoroughly deny that on the fever dream that we will all get distracted enough for your friends to rebound.
That's not going to happen. There's no sense feeding you more shitposts if all you're going to do with that fuel is to Stay Pomp(ous).]
Tl,DR:
Fuck your whole worldview.
Quote from: Mistwell on February 21, 2023, 08:21:55 PM
Quote from: Abraxus on February 21, 2023, 08:43:37 AM
Mistwell and other similar Woke people tend to run interference or similar when the awoke pull this kind of shit. Not sure because it goes against their personal carefully constructed personal narratives. Or simply because if they don't their equally Woke compatriots may cancel them. In any case it's pathetic. It comes off as someone in an abusive relationship making excuses for their abusers bad behaviour. And remember everyone Mistwell is not Woke not at all. Kind of like the Jewish guy who eats non-koshers meals when it suits him.
Yes I saw the video so anyone saysI need to watch it can fuck off. I lost minutes of my life watching that trash.
The Treantmonk video I posted? I call bullshit. You would not be calling me and that video "woke" if you had. No you watched the one paragraph out of context clip, just like everyone else here. Because watching the Treantmonk video (a guy who is definitely not woke) would risk you being wrong.
"Come on guys! Why won't you watch a video by a guy making excuses for WotC/Hasbro and their lackey Brink? He's just polishing WotC's balls, he's not woke!
He shows the clip where he says WotC should fire al those evul huwhite straight men and never hire another of those pests but it's totally not racism, because buzzword, buzzword, wordsalad, buzzword guys!"
Let me explain to the slow kids in the class (like you mistwell):
2nd in command in WotC says in ONE interview he agrees less white straight men should be working on D&D
Same person says in another interview "The hiring process has equity targets to bring in a representative sample of candidates, after which it is who is the best candidate." https://archive.is/lZ4rL (https://archive.is/lZ4rL) I'm guessing you'll now say EnWorld is a far right rag.
We KNOW what "equity" means, it means discriminating against white straight people (men mostly), because it means you are paying attention to the race/sex/sexuality of those you accept as candidates to fill up a quota, there's no fucking way to achieve "equity" without discrimination.
So, Hasbro/WotC is discriminating on racial/sexual/sexuality lines AGAINST white, straight men. Which is all kinds of fucked, yet you, the totally not woke are capping for them.
Now, they didn't say they don't want the money from those evul huwhite, straight, men (puagh!), they just won't hire them.
I guess you'd be totally advocating against a boycott from black people towards a corporation that was discriminating against them in the hiring process huh?
I've said it many times, I'm a mongrel Spaniard/Maya, I look 100% white, WotC wouldn't hire me because I'm a white, straight, Christian, Conservative, man. Therefore I won't give them my hard earned pesos and will do everything in my power to have more of those pesky white people (and the majority of non-whites) to boycott them for being fucking racists.
Do you understand it now? Or do I need crayons to explain it to you?
Quote from: DocJones on February 21, 2023, 02:18:18 PM
"people who look like me"
I think he means four-eyed beta-cucks.
LOL. Why do all the guys like this look the same? I mean, they all have that same soy face. Chuck Wendig comes to mind. And they always have that same sappy, wimpy expression on their faces, like their wife's boyfriend just told them to cook dinner and clean the house and while they're at it, wash out his socks too.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 21, 2023, 03:37:12 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 21, 2023, 11:57:38 AM
Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 05:23:15 AM
I'm not sure it was stupid - WoTC have been working hard on 'divide & conquer' tactics, stirring up race hate, and now Brink has a bunch of lefties defending his comments. Result. Plus it was a deflection tactic - the interviewers want blacks in well paid & powerful executive roles, so Brink starts talking about getting rid of basement dwelling white players, & hiring poorly paid PoC designers...
I agree. I suspect that this has done exactly what it has intended. WotC hasn't had to do any action that is actually leftist - not even hire more poorly-paid PoC designers.
Instead, simply by a few words, he's changed the conversation from being about their corporate overreach of IP (which had gamers united against them) to being about oppression of white people (which left-leaning gamers won't sign on about).
That interview got me to sail the high seas on all D&D content and share the method to do it with all my groups. Hey its only 12 people, but if they share with 2 more a piece that's 24 and so on. Kudo's Brink.
Other people feel the same way. I'm also OFF D&D Beyond as a platform and using Fantasy Grounds in lieu and training my players to use it as well. Again, congrats Brink.
Interesting, honeydipperdavid. Many posters here left WotC several years ago, and if not, at least after their attempt to cancel the OGL back in January. Pundit has been very vocal in anti-WotC talk, and it seems like especially conservative posters have tended to agree with him.
Personally, I left WotC over their OGL debacle in January. I never had a D&D Beyond account, but I gave up WotC products after that.
I'd be curious about your staying loyal to them until now, and then leaving after the Brink interview. How would you sum up your view compared to Pundit's and other conservative posters?
Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2023, 12:05:44 AM
Interesting, honeydipperdavid. Many posters here left WotC several years ago, and if not, at least after their attempt to cancel the OGL back in January. Pundit has been very vocal in anti-WotC talk, and it seems like especially conservative posters have tended to agree with him.
Personally, I left WotC over their OGL debacle in January. I never had a D&D Beyond account, but I gave up WotC products after that.
Personally, I mostly stopped buying WoTC stuff because it tended to be bad, certainly compared to many other publishers. I think Fizban's Treasury of Dragons was a real turning point. It was just so
lazy. January 2023 was the first time I really felt an active aversion to them. Then when they released the 5e SRD into CC I thought 'hm well maybe they can win me back, I might pick up Planescape, that was always kind of a Seattle-like setting anyway so they presumably won't ruin it like Dragonlance...' But really now I get a sick feeling in my stomach at the thought of sending them any money. I think now once Free League's Dragonbane is out - loved my first playtest session - I'll probably mostly run that for a while. And I just picked up Forbidden Caverns of Archaia in a Humble Bundle, along with a ton of Necromancer Games/Troll Lord Games/Kobold Press stuff. Definitely not short of material.
Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2023, 12:05:44 AM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 21, 2023, 03:37:12 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 21, 2023, 11:57:38 AM
Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 05:23:15 AM
I'm not sure it was stupid - WoTC have been working hard on 'divide & conquer' tactics, stirring up race hate, and now Brink has a bunch of lefties defending his comments. Result. Plus it was a deflection tactic - the interviewers want blacks in well paid & powerful executive roles, so Brink starts talking about getting rid of basement dwelling white players, & hiring poorly paid PoC designers...
I agree. I suspect that this has done exactly what it has intended. WotC hasn't had to do any action that is actually leftist - not even hire more poorly-paid PoC designers.
Instead, simply by a few words, he's changed the conversation from being about their corporate overreach of IP (which had gamers united against them) to being about oppression of white people (which left-leaning gamers won't sign on about).
That interview got me to sail the high seas on all D&D content and share the method to do it with all my groups. Hey its only 12 people, but if they share with 2 more a piece that's 24 and so on. Kudo's Brink.
Other people feel the same way. I'm also OFF D&D Beyond as a platform and using Fantasy Grounds in lieu and training my players to use it as well. Again, congrats Brink.
Interesting, honeydipperdavid. Many posters here left WotC several years ago, and if not, at least after their attempt to cancel the OGL back in January. Pundit has been very vocal in anti-WotC talk, and it seems like especially conservative posters have tended to agree with him.
Personally, I left WotC over their OGL debacle in January. I never had a D&D Beyond account, but I gave up WotC products after that.
I'd be curious about your staying loyal to them until now, and then leaving after the Brink interview. How would you sum up your view compared to Pundit's and other conservative posters?
I had already cancelled D&D Beyond over OGL, Brink's statement guaranteed I would never resubscribe. I quit buying any original content once WotC decided to label 4E and earlier content racist on Drivethru. I've been using existing older content updated to 5E to specifically not give WotC any revenue and using the books I already have owned. I started working my groups to use other RPG's using the OGL as the excuse to move 12 people away from D&D and it worked. Brink's behavior got me to show my players ways of getting 5E content without funding WotC. I've made it a point to mention when visiting a hobby shop if they have the D&D Beyond code bundled in their books? They say no, and I come back but WotC is planning on doing that, how come they aren't offering it to stores to piss the owners off against WotC. It would be easier now to spread that little bit of disontent towards WotC at game stores now that the store for D&D with the D&D Beyond code is live.
And no, I'm not a conservative, I'm a moderate. WotC is went social marxist like most of the dreg misanthropes who work in the far left coast. A moderate doesn't judge someone based on their skin, a leftist social marxist does, they simply replaced class because the US gives you the opportunity to own private property, run a business and access to decide where you want to work so class based communism didn't work, its why they went to social marxism to use race as the primary attack on the United States. Moderates and now Conservatives don't support needless wars due to cost and pointless deaths the left meanwhile absorbed the neocon/neolib. Ask yourself, who will have a Ukrainian flag on, an Antifa member or a small business owner, its the Antifa member.
WotC bowed to the leftists because of twitter bots, well plenty of people can hit them in their bottom line from the people who did buy their content and WotC turned them into anti-consumers directing sales problems to WotC itself.
Quote from: S'mon on February 22, 2023, 01:05:08 AM
Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2023, 12:05:44 AM
Interesting, honeydipperdavid. Many posters here left WotC several years ago, and if not, at least after their attempt to cancel the OGL back in January. Pundit has been very vocal in anti-WotC talk, and it seems like especially conservative posters have tended to agree with him.
Personally, I left WotC over their OGL debacle in January. I never had a D&D Beyond account, but I gave up WotC products after that.
Personally, I mostly stopped buying WoTC stuff because it tended to be bad, certainly compared to many other publishers. I think Fizban's Treasury of Dragons was a real turning point. It was just so lazy. January 2023 was the first time I really felt an active aversion to them. Then when they released the 5e SRD into CC I thought 'hm well maybe they can win me back, I might pick up Planescape, that was always kind of a Seattle-like setting anyway so they presumably won't ruin it like Dragonlance...' But really now I get a sick feeling in my stomach at the thought of sending them any money. I think now once Free League's Dragonbane is out - loved my first playtest session - I'll probably mostly run that for a while. And I just picked up Forbidden Caverns of Archaia in a Humble Bundle, along with a ton of Necromancer Games/Troll Lord Games/Kobold Press stuff. Definitely not short of material.
I think their 5e peaked around Mordekainen's Tome of Foes or Tomb of Annihilation. After that I just couldn't rouse myself to care. That said I peeked every now and again for the surveys or free pdf content. I was worried how they would fuck up the classing settings
Xanathar's seemed table useful (Random Chart list o' names is nice) -- except for all the new archetypes that I just would not have at my table -- so overall it was give and take neutral. Ravenloft... started strong with the teaser adventures then whimpered out. Yawning Portal seemed like a happy compromise reprint, still not something pushing me to pay for WotC products.
By Tasha's I wrote them off, widget factory galore, now with blessings from on high to pout-stomp out any last restrictions based on setting or table taste. There's no 'there' there anymore, just like RPGnet. And if we learn nothing in life at least learn never go full Something Awful (a fun site back in 2000 for a hot minute, and just that lone minute), a la RPGnet did.
I could care less about whatever meaning anyone wants to put behind his words. He explicitly states, "guys like me can't leave the hobby fast enough" and doesn't leave himself. He's a disingenuous twat and it's sad anyone would continue to take him seriously from this point on.
Quote from: Ron Maiden on February 22, 2023, 10:54:32 AM
I could care less about whatever meaning anyone wants to put behind his words. He explicitly states, "guys like me can't leave the hobby fast enough" and doesn't leave himself. He's a disingenuous twat and it's sad anyone would continue to take him seriously from this point on.
Your logic marks you as problematic. Logic is the work of the white-devils running WotC that can't seem to leave fast enough.
Quote from: tenbones on February 23, 2023, 10:00:36 AM
Quote from: Ron Maiden on February 22, 2023, 10:54:32 AM
I could care less about whatever meaning anyone wants to put behind his words. He explicitly states, "guys like me can't leave the hobby fast enough" and doesn't leave himself. He's a disingenuous twat and it's sad anyone would continue to take him seriously from this point on.
Your logic marks you as problematic. Logic is the work of the white-devils running WotC that can't seem to leave fast enough.
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.
Even giving this guy the full benefit of the doubt that he wasn't saying white players need to leave doesn't make him look good, because he's still stating that he wants people to be hired for their skin tone and genitals rather than talent for putting out good products. Now if he came out and admitted, "Hey, our employees suck, we're racist and only hired them because they're white dudes so we need to get rid of the talentless racism hires," that would be a different matter. Without some kind of admission that the current white employees are incapable of doing their jobs, saying you want them to be replaced by not-white people comes across as, well, very racist.
Quote from: Valatar on February 23, 2023, 02:26:14 PM
Without some kind of admission that the current white employees are incapable of doing their jobs, saying you want them to be replaced by not-white people comes across as, well, very racist.
Sure, but claiming they're incapable of doing their jobs
because they're white is just as racist. If they were hired for racist reasons, the solution is to get rid of them and hire other people for non-racist reasons -- not to hire other people for different racist reasons.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
Quote from: tenbones on February 23, 2023, 10:00:36 AM
Quote from: Ron Maiden on February 22, 2023, 10:54:32 AM
I could care less about whatever meaning anyone wants to put behind his words. He explicitly states, "guys like me can't leave the hobby fast enough" and doesn't leave himself. He's a disingenuous twat and it's sad anyone would continue to take him seriously from this point on.
Your logic marks you as problematic. Logic is the work of the white-devils running WotC that can't seem to leave fast enough.
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.
Even if its a grimly determined widow whose yeoman husband was killed by goblin raiders and refuses to give up the land that is her young son's by right and that her husband died protecting? If she hears you're out hunting those goblin raiders she'll give you her husband's axe if you promise to bury it the skull of one of the goblins as a message from her.
Context is everything.
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 04:21:55 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
Quote from: tenbones on February 23, 2023, 10:00:36 AM
Quote from: Ron Maiden on February 22, 2023, 10:54:32 AM
I could care less about whatever meaning anyone wants to put behind his words. He explicitly states, "guys like me can't leave the hobby fast enough" and doesn't leave himself. He's a disingenuous twat and it's sad anyone would continue to take him seriously from this point on.
Your logic marks you as problematic. Logic is the work of the white-devils running WotC that can't seem to leave fast enough.
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.
Even if its a grimly determined widow whose yeoman husband was killed by goblin raiders and refuses to give up the land that is her young son's by right and that her husband died protecting? If she hears you're out hunting those goblin raiders she'll give you her husband's axe if you promise to bury it the skull of one of the goblins as a message from her.
Context is everything.
A single mother in a medieval society raising children alone and farming is going to die of starvation or at the very least lose the children trying to stay alive. Families would kill their children during famine and they had a husband and wife to farm and prepare food for winter, cut the labor in more than half and you have problems. I don't care about "context", I care about verisimilitude. The example I'm giving is from Phandalin. Meanwhile, they then put in the same module a butterskull ranch with a guy and a bunch of farm hands getting raided and taken over by orcs (realistic). There was a reason why in the past single mothers were ostracized, it was due to their inability to take care of the kids and being an undue burden on people barely eking out an existance to begin with medieval farming techniques.
Greetings!
Context. Hmmm...well, single mommies in the ancient and medieval worlds were generally shafted, and hard. Unless the mommy had close family to take care of her and her children, she and the kids were screwed. Kids were either abandoned by the mommy, given away to family--or whoever, and the mommy becomes a prostitute. That was the "good" outcome. For the mommies that were young, sexy, and beautiful. The ugly women, the fat women, they routinely became impoverished beggars, and starved in the streets and gutters.
This was the constant reality facing unmarried single mommies throughout history. These dynamics have only changed because of the current reign of cucked and feminized social welfare states.
Having single mommies can be realistically portrayed in the game campaign. Typically, such women fill in the ranks of the hordes of prostitutes that throng most cities and towns, or, as mentioned, lay about in the gutters begging. A few more fortunate single mommies can maybe get by in large cities by working long, hard days as a laundry woman, cook, or also being a bar girl, or maybe working at a bathhouse. If she is not willing to be prostitute, such jobs don't pay much at all, so they must more than likely work two jobs, or three, six or seven days a week. That's just to get by, without being a prostitute or a starving beggar in the streets. Ancient Roman sources even describe how vast numbers of "ordinary" women, single women, that may have not been professional prostitutes, still practiced regular "part-time" prostitution, such as some laundry women or cooks working their normal, grinding jobs for much of the week, but for one or two nights per week, such women embraced opportunities serving as prostitutes. Such women were also opportunistic, in that they would indulge prostitution whenever very appealing opportunities presented themselves at any given time.
Throughout the world, such as in Egypt, Persia, Britain, India, or China, these dynamics expressed themselves as constant realities for lower class women, for poor women in general, and especially for single mommies.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 04:21:55 PM
Even if its a grimly determined widow whose yeoman husband was killed by goblin raiders and refuses to give up the land that is her young son's by right and that her husband died protecting? If she hears you're out hunting those goblin raiders she'll give you her husband's axe if you promise to bury it the skull of one of the goblins as a message from her.
A single mother in a medieval society raising children alone and farming is going to die of starvation or at the very least lose the children trying to stay alive. Families would kill their children during famine and they had a husband and wife to farm and prepare food for winter, cut the labor in more than half and you have problems. I don't care about "context", I care about verisimilitude. The example I'm giving is from Phandalin.
D&D has never portrayed the harsh existence of medieval peasantry, with children being killed in winter to save on food. For example, The Village of Hommlet was just as anachronistic, and came across like a 1950s small town - with each house being owned by a nuclear family.
Historical medieval peasantry was far messier than this, with lots of mixed homes of 8 people all living in a hut together - some related, some not - all scraping by to pay rent to the lord. There were lots of single mothers -- not the strong independent "I want to raise a family on my own" type, but rather knocked up out of wedlock, abandoned by her husband, widowed, or raped. A significant fraction of medieval men and women were never married - I've seen estimates of 25%. Among upper classes, unmarried folk would usually become monks or nuns - but among lower classes they generally just got by however they could.
I hate Lost Mine of Phandelver, mostly because I found it dull as dishwater. I just think that aspect doesn't stand out to me, given that D&D has never conveyed medieval peasantry in its towns.
EDITED TO ADD: Cross-posted with SHARK. And yes, prostitution was common, though sexual service for favors was likely much more common than formal prostitution.
Quote from: jhkim on February 23, 2023, 05:50:10 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 04:21:55 PM
Even if its a grimly determined widow whose yeoman husband was killed by goblin raiders and refuses to give up the land that is her young son's by right and that her husband died protecting? If she hears you're out hunting those goblin raiders she'll give you her husband's axe if you promise to bury it the skull of one of the goblins as a message from her.
A single mother in a medieval society raising children alone and farming is going to die of starvation or at the very least lose the children trying to stay alive. Families would kill their children during famine and they had a husband and wife to farm and prepare food for winter, cut the labor in more than half and you have problems. I don't care about "context", I care about verisimilitude. The example I'm giving is from Phandalin.
D&D has never portrayed the harsh existence of medieval peasantry, with children being killed in winter to save on food. For example, The Village of Hommlet was just as anachronistic, and came across like a 1950s small town - with each house being owned by a nuclear family.
Historical medieval peasantry was far messier than this, with lots of mixed homes of 8 people all living in a hut together - some related, some not - all scraping by to pay rent to the lord. There were lots of single mothers -- not the strong independent "I want to raise a family on my own" type, but rather knocked up out of wedlock, abandoned by her husband, widowed, or raped. A significant fraction of medieval men and women were never married - I've seen estimates of 25%. Among upper classes, unmarried folk would usually become monks or nuns - but among lower classes they generally just got by however they could.
I hate Lost Mine of Phandelver, mostly because I found it dull as dishwater. I just think that aspect doesn't stand out to me, given that D&D has never conveyed medieval peasantry in its towns.
EDITED TO ADD: Cross-posted with SHARK. And yes, prostitution was common, though sexual service for favors was likely much more common than formal prostitution.
Hommlette had a keep being built, a full mercenary troop, a wizard and a fighter leading the town with a milita as well. It had a fair bit of huts and some shops but not over the top. You are looking at a temple, druid grove, and a corrupt trader. Not counting the smith, carpenter and some other craftsmen. It was fairly decent for a small town. If you set up with a trade resoure or on a main trade root it made more sense where its' located.
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
Quote from: tenbones on February 23, 2023, 10:00:36 AM
Quote from: Ron Maiden on February 22, 2023, 10:54:32 AM
I could care less about whatever meaning anyone wants to put behind his words. He explicitly states, "guys like me can't leave the hobby fast enough" and doesn't leave himself. He's a disingenuous twat and it's sad anyone would continue to take him seriously from this point on.
Your logic marks you as problematic. Logic is the work of the white-devils running WotC that can't seem to leave fast enough.
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.
It's pandering to a target market, sure. Pandering is nothing new in these games. The rough adventurer type who sets out to earn his own fortune is also pandering. Real medieval history was way more complex than typically portrayed in these games. The single mom may be a widow who often could carry on her dead husband's trade. As for the adventurer, he was probably a nobleman or was protected by one and probably very much a "murder hobo". And druids were fucking long gone by this time.
Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 05:44:31 PM
Greetings!
Context. Hmmm...well, single mommies in the ancient and medieval worlds were generally shafted, and hard. Unless the mommy had close family to take care of her and her children, she and the kids were screwed. Kids were either abandoned by the mommy, given away to family--or whoever, and the mommy becomes a prostitute. That was the "good" outcome. For the mommies that were young, sexy, and beautiful. The ugly women, the fat women, they routinely became impoverished beggars, and starved in the streets and gutters.
This was the constant reality facing unmarried single mommies throughout history. These dynamics have only changed because of the current reign of cucked and feminized social welfare states.
Having single mommies can be realistically portrayed in the game campaign. Typically, such women fill in the ranks of the hordes of prostitutes that throng most cities and towns, or, as mentioned, lay about in the gutters begging. A few more fortunate single mommies can maybe get by in large cities by working long, hard days as a laundry woman, cook, or also being a bar girl, or maybe working at a bathhouse. If she is not willing to be prostitute, such jobs don't pay much at all, so they must more than likely work two jobs, or three, six or seven days a week. That's just to get by, without being a prostitute or a starving beggar in the streets. Ancient Roman sources even describe how vast numbers of "ordinary" women, single women, that may have not been professional prostitutes, still practiced regular "part-time" prostitution, such as some laundry women or cooks working their normal, grinding jobs for much of the week, but for one or two nights per week, such women embraced opportunities serving as prostitutes. Such women were also opportunistic, in that they would indulge prostitution whenever very appealing opportunities presented themselves at any given time.
Throughout the world, such as in Egypt, Persia, Britain, India, or China, these dynamics expressed themselves as constant realities for lower class women, for poor women in general, and especially for single mommies.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Oh yeah, that's why I game, to get away from the dull realities of life by getting slapped in the face with the ungodly ugly realities of the medieval period. Said no one ever.
I know how really ugly was for most of human history, if I wanted a refresher I would read a book, I play to have fun.
The above quote by Shark while historically accurate doesn't sound like something that would be fun to encounter in my saturday night game. YMMV, if anyone finds it fun then knock your self out, I'll pass.
Quote from: rytrasmi on February 23, 2023, 06:21:21 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
Quote from: tenbones on February 23, 2023, 10:00:36 AM
Quote from: Ron Maiden on February 22, 2023, 10:54:32 AM
I could care less about whatever meaning anyone wants to put behind his words. He explicitly states, "guys like me can't leave the hobby fast enough" and doesn't leave himself. He's a disingenuous twat and it's sad anyone would continue to take him seriously from this point on.
Your logic marks you as problematic. Logic is the work of the white-devils running WotC that can't seem to leave fast enough.
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.
It's pandering to a target market, sure. Pandering is nothing new in these games. The rough adventurer type who sets out to earn his own fortune is also pandering. Real medieval history was way more complex than typically portrayed in these games. The single mom may be a widow who often could carry on her dead husband's trade. As for the adventurer, he was probably a nobleman or was protected by one and probably very much a "murder hobo". And druids were fucking long gone by this time.
Greetings!
Good stuff, Rytrami! Your commentary is spot-on. It also reminded me of the rather frequent occasions I've read about Medieval Nobles and such, with their retainers and hangers-on. I can recall a mix of lesser nobles, middle-class Yeomen, veteran mercenaries, as well as barbarian raiders--or "former barbarian marauders" as well as the occasional "Former criminal" or scandalized ex-clergyman, serving as retainers or whatever nobleman. And these retainers were also often very much *Murder Hobos* *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
A single mother in a medieval society raising children alone and farming is going to die of starvation or at the very least lose the children trying to stay alive. Families would kill their children during famine and they had a husband and wife to farm and prepare food for winter, cut the labor in more than half and you have problems. I don't care about "context", I care about verisimilitude. The example I'm giving is from Phandalin. Meanwhile, they then put in the same module a butterskull ranch with a guy and a bunch of farm hands getting raided and taken over by orcs (realistic). There was a reason why in the past single mothers were ostracized, it was due to their inability to take care of the kids and being an undue burden on people barely eking out an existance to begin with medieval farming techniques.
Sounds like a good plot hook for a very forward romantic interest.
Of course it's fair criticism that a lot of RPG adventures are written by people who don't have a real interest in history or culture. Unfortunately it's difficult to avoid these types in the RPG hobby these days, so if you want to run a grounded, historically coherent game you're going to have to do a lot of work.
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2023, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 05:44:31 PM
Greetings!
Context. Hmmm...well, single mommies in the ancient and medieval worlds were generally shafted, and hard. Unless the mommy had close family to take care of her and her children, she and the kids were screwed. Kids were either abandoned by the mommy, given away to family--or whoever, and the mommy becomes a prostitute. That was the "good" outcome. For the mommies that were young, sexy, and beautiful. The ugly women, the fat women, they routinely became impoverished beggars, and starved in the streets and gutters.
This was the constant reality facing unmarried single mommies throughout history. These dynamics have only changed because of the current reign of cucked and feminized social welfare states.
Having single mommies can be realistically portrayed in the game campaign. Typically, such women fill in the ranks of the hordes of prostitutes that throng most cities and towns, or, as mentioned, lay about in the gutters begging. A few more fortunate single mommies can maybe get by in large cities by working long, hard days as a laundry woman, cook, or also being a bar girl, or maybe working at a bathhouse. If she is not willing to be prostitute, such jobs don't pay much at all, so they must more than likely work two jobs, or three, six or seven days a week. That's just to get by, without being a prostitute or a starving beggar in the streets. Ancient Roman sources even describe how vast numbers of "ordinary" women, single women, that may have not been professional prostitutes, still practiced regular "part-time" prostitution, such as some laundry women or cooks working their normal, grinding jobs for much of the week, but for one or two nights per week, such women embraced opportunities serving as prostitutes. Such women were also opportunistic, in that they would indulge prostitution whenever very appealing opportunities presented themselves at any given time.
Throughout the world, such as in Egypt, Persia, Britain, India, or China, these dynamics expressed themselves as constant realities for lower class women, for poor women in general, and especially for single mommies.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Oh yeah, that's why I game, to get away from the dull realities of life by getting slapped in the face with the ungodly ugly realities of the medieval period. Said no one ever.
I know how really ugly was for most of human history, if I wanted a refresher I would read a book, I play to have fun.
The above quote by Shark while historically accurate doesn't sound like something that would be fun to encounter in my saturday night game. YMMV, if anyone finds it fun then knock your self out, I'll pass.
Greetings!
"Said no one ever." *Laughing* Indeed, while I typically note elements of such reality for my own groups, it is typically background furniture. As to the commentary though, it is merely a counterpoint to the happy, empowered, uber-feminist kind of imagery that is presented in the modules that Honeydipper was complaining about. Apparently, such feminist imagery is often encountered in such modules, and he expressed a preference for *verisimilitude*, which is understandable.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 06:34:38 PM
Greetings!
Good stuff, Rytrami! Your commentary is spot-on. It also reminded me of the rather frequent occasions I've read about Medieval Nobles and such, with their retainers and hangers-on. I can recall a mix of lesser nobles, middle-class Yeomen, veteran mercenaries, as well as barbarian raiders--or "former barbarian marauders" as well as the occasional "Former criminal" or scandalized ex-clergyman, serving as retainers or whatever nobleman. And these retainers were also often very much *Murder Hobos* *Laughing*
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Yep, imagine a gang like that! What would it have been like to run into them? LOL. Cheers!
Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 23, 2023, 06:29:17 PM
Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 05:44:31 PM
Greetings!
Context. Hmmm...well, single mommies in the ancient and medieval worlds were generally shafted, and hard. Unless the mommy had close family to take care of her and her children, she and the kids were screwed. Kids were either abandoned by the mommy, given away to family--or whoever, and the mommy becomes a prostitute. That was the "good" outcome. For the mommies that were young, sexy, and beautiful. The ugly women, the fat women, they routinely became impoverished beggars, and starved in the streets and gutters.
This was the constant reality facing unmarried single mommies throughout history. These dynamics have only changed because of the current reign of cucked and feminized social welfare states.
Having single mommies can be realistically portrayed in the game campaign. Typically, such women fill in the ranks of the hordes of prostitutes that throng most cities and towns, or, as mentioned, lay about in the gutters begging. A few more fortunate single mommies can maybe get by in large cities by working long, hard days as a laundry woman, cook, or also being a bar girl, or maybe working at a bathhouse. If she is not willing to be prostitute, such jobs don't pay much at all, so they must more than likely work two jobs, or three, six or seven days a week. That's just to get by, without being a prostitute or a starving beggar in the streets. Ancient Roman sources even describe how vast numbers of "ordinary" women, single women, that may have not been professional prostitutes, still practiced regular "part-time" prostitution, such as some laundry women or cooks working their normal, grinding jobs for much of the week, but for one or two nights per week, such women embraced opportunities serving as prostitutes. Such women were also opportunistic, in that they would indulge prostitution whenever very appealing opportunities presented themselves at any given time.
Throughout the world, such as in Egypt, Persia, Britain, India, or China, these dynamics expressed themselves as constant realities for lower class women, for poor women in general, and especially for single mommies.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Oh yeah, that's why I game, to get away from the dull realities of life by getting slapped in the face with the ungodly ugly realities of the medieval period. Said no one ever.
I know how really ugly was for most of human history, if I wanted a refresher I would read a book, I play to have fun.
The above quote by Shark while historically accurate doesn't sound like something that would be fun to encounter in my saturday night game. YMMV, if anyone finds it fun then knock your self out, I'll pass.
Reality being ugly or not is a matter of perspective. I find it amazing what people did to survive with human resourcefulness and ingenuity. There are games that have prostitute classes. They have skills and can make fine characters in the right circumstances.
Quote from: Zelen on February 23, 2023, 06:40:28 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
A single mother in a medieval society raising children alone and farming is going to die of starvation or at the very least lose the children trying to stay alive. Families would kill their children during famine and they had a husband and wife to farm and prepare food for winter, cut the labor in more than half and you have problems. I don't care about "context", I care about verisimilitude. The example I'm giving is from Phandalin. Meanwhile, they then put in the same module a butterskull ranch with a guy and a bunch of farm hands getting raided and taken over by orcs (realistic). There was a reason why in the past single mothers were ostracized, it was due to their inability to take care of the kids and being an undue burden on people barely eking out an existance to begin with medieval farming techniques.
Sounds like a good plot hook for a very forward romantic interest.
Of course it's fair criticism that a lot of RPG adventures are written by people who don't have a real interest in history or culture. Unfortunately it's difficult to avoid these types in the RPG hobby these days, so if you want to run a grounded, historically coherent game you're going to have to do a lot of work.
Greetings!
Yeah, my friend! Very true! I've had to put crazy amounts of work into my own campaign world, to accomplish just that--a grounded, historically coherent game. I like having a coherent, historical foundation, so as to provide a solid and constant environment within the campaign. Knowing what such foundations are, it makes it much easier and more manageable to include elements that *depart* from such a foundation. That's important, to make sure such modern, anachronistic, or whatever crazy elements don't *boom* entirely corrupt and ruin the campaign.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.
Would it help if the two kids were half-orcs?
Quote from: DocJones on February 23, 2023, 07:49:19 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.
Would it help if the two kids were half-orcs?
LOL could you
imagine the response if they published that?
Quote from: DocJones on February 23, 2023, 07:49:19 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.
Would it help if the two kids were half-orcs?
At least give her a realistic peasant occupation, like charcoal burner.
Quote from: Venka on February 23, 2023, 08:25:37 PM
Quote from: DocJones on February 23, 2023, 07:49:19 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.
Would it help if the two kids were half-orcs?
LOL could you imagine the response if they published that?
Greetings!
In my own campaign, in regions where Orcs are present, this exact process is the dynamic of how more or less urbanized populations of Half Orcs develop. With every invasion by Orc Hordes, there's always thousands of human women that become pregnant and give birth to Half Orc spawn. The Half Orcs then get with each other, as well as various willing Human women, and breed even more Half Orcs. In a relatively brief span of time, there are entire sub-populations of hordes of Half Orcs living amongst many nearby cities and towns. This, then, supplies the endless masses of Half Orc criminals, mercenaries, prostitutes, and sweating, grunting, laboring classes.
I love it. It provides all of the dynamics for having emotionally incontinent, violent, socially dysfunctional Half Orcs encountered so often. Single mommies, whores, drugs, gambling, train-wreck social relationships, numerous ruffians coming in and out of the family picture, the uneducated, poor half Orc single mommies themselves embracing and promoting a culture of total hedonism, debauchery, violent competition, and self-preservation. Thus, both Half Orc males and females grow up in a violent, hedonistic, debauched sub-culture that promotes an endless cycle of poverty, crime, brutality, as well as social and emotional dysfunction.
I have an entire stable of stock Half Orc characters as whores, dancers, thugs, petty thieves, mercenaries, laundry women, bathhouse girls, slave drivers, labourers, charlatans, demagogues, dim-witted cultists, and assortments of grifters, criminals, and con-artists in which to populate any poor, violent urban city district or town outskirts where all the unwashed masses gather together in gibbering chaos. More respectable occupations include maid, house servant, field hand, Gong Farmer, Jailer, Sewer Worker, and Coachman. Opportunities abound for hard-working Half Orcs. Various kinds of entertainers, street performers, hustlers, and adventurers are also very popular.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
"mix of lesser nobles, middle-class Yeomen, veteran mercenaries, as well as barbarian raiders--or "former barbarian marauders" as well as the occasional "Former criminal" or scandalized ex-clergyman, serving as retainers or whatever nobleman. And these retainers were also often very much *Murder Hobos*"
This made me think of the mercenary group in Flesh+Blood. Almost a spot on description!
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 04:21:55 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
Quote from: tenbones on February 23, 2023, 10:00:36 AM
Quote from: Ron Maiden on February 22, 2023, 10:54:32 AM
I could care less about whatever meaning anyone wants to put behind his words. He explicitly states, "guys like me can't leave the hobby fast enough" and doesn't leave himself. He's a disingenuous twat and it's sad anyone would continue to take him seriously from this point on.
Your logic marks you as problematic. Logic is the work of the white-devils running WotC that can't seem to leave fast enough.
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.
Even if its a grimly determined widow whose yeoman husband was killed by goblin raiders and refuses to give up the land that is her young son's by right and that her husband died protecting? If she hears you're out hunting those goblin raiders she'll give you her husband's axe if you promise to bury it the skull of one of the goblins as a message from her.
Context is everything.
A single mother in a medieval society raising children alone and farming is going to die of starvation or at the very least lose the children trying to stay alive. Families would kill their children during famine and they had a husband and wife to farm and prepare food for winter, cut the labor in more than half and you have problems. I don't care about "context", I care about verisimilitude. The example I'm giving is from Phandalin. Meanwhile, they then put in the same module a butterskull ranch with a guy and a bunch of farm hands getting raided and taken over by orcs (realistic). There was a reason why in the past single mothers were ostracized, it was due to their inability to take care of the kids and being an undue burden on people barely eking out an existance to begin with medieval farming techniques.
Meh. D&D has never been hard medieval... its more the Western genre with Medieval trappings on it.
I was specifically envisioning with my example the widowed farm/ranch owner from so many Western films whose husband was killed by bandits and is trying to keep the farm/ranch afloat... and in comes the protagonist to save the day by killing the bandits and restoring peace to the land (and either riding off or settling down with the widow depending on the particulars of the story).
Its practically a stock trope of the genre D&D's heart was based in... I just added the same level of medieval trappings old school TSR would have. Yeoman instead of rancher, goblins instead of bandits, axe instead of gun.
Almost anything is possible as a temporary, highly unstable situation that happens to be that way at the moment the PCs interact with it. Which is also, I suppose, a bit of a trope. That is, it only even comes up in the first place because it is unusual.
The problem that WotC and others of their ilk run into is that they don't want to admit that a heroic deed is on the table. (This is also why so many modern fantasy authors are incapable of ending their stories, but I digress.) The recently widowed farmer and her two surviving children, who will soon be in a far worst state if nothing is done--that's a useful situation. Especially if there is nothing forced about it, and helping that family is not straight-forward or easy. If the PCs can't or won't help, it will devolve. How far will depend on how far the GM wants to let it go. I'm usually running PG-13 or thereabouts, so I'll only let it go so far, at least "on screen". But devolve it will.
Meanwhile, the modern mindset is, "I am widow, hear me roar". If you are going that route and aren't going to come across as a complete moron, you'd better have some other context explaining how the widow is herself heroic. But the morons don't want that, either.
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 10:50:25 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
Quote from: Chris24601 on February 23, 2023, 04:21:55 PM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 23, 2023, 12:08:35 PM
Quote from: tenbones on February 23, 2023, 10:00:36 AM
Quote from: Ron Maiden on February 22, 2023, 10:54:32 AM
I could care less about whatever meaning anyone wants to put behind his words. He explicitly states, "guys like me can't leave the hobby fast enough" and doesn't leave himself. He's a disingenuous twat and it's sad anyone would continue to take him seriously from this point on.
Your logic marks you as problematic. Logic is the work of the white-devils running WotC that can't seem to leave fast enough.
If I see one more single mother medieval farmer with two kids in a D&D module I'm going to barf, that crap didn't take place till 5E.
Even if its a grimly determined widow whose yeoman husband was killed by goblin raiders and refuses to give up the land that is her young son's by right and that her husband died protecting? If she hears you're out hunting those goblin raiders she'll give you her husband's axe if you promise to bury it the skull of one of the goblins as a message from her.
Context is everything.
A single mother in a medieval society raising children alone and farming is going to die of starvation or at the very least lose the children trying to stay alive. Families would kill their children during famine and they had a husband and wife to farm and prepare food for winter, cut the labor in more than half and you have problems. I don't care about "context", I care about verisimilitude. The example I'm giving is from Phandalin. Meanwhile, they then put in the same module a butterskull ranch with a guy and a bunch of farm hands getting raided and taken over by orcs (realistic). There was a reason why in the past single mothers were ostracized, it was due to their inability to take care of the kids and being an undue burden on people barely eking out an existance to begin with medieval farming techniques.
Meh. D&D has never been hard medieval... its more the Western genre with Medieval trappings on it.
I was specifically envisioning with my example the widowed farm/ranch owner from so many Western films whose husband was killed by bandits and is trying to keep the farm/ranch afloat... and in comes the protagonist to save the day by killing the bandits and restoring peace to the land (and either riding off or settling down with the widow depending on the particulars of the story).
Its practically a stock trope of the genre D&D's heart was based in... I just added the same level of medieval trappings old school TSR would have. Yeoman instead of rancher, goblins instead of bandits, axe instead of gun.
Greetings!
Good point, Chris! Yes, I agree. The "Western" trope you cite is excellent. Historically, it also is based very much in reality. Life on the frontier and prairies was often brutal, either from savage Indian tribes, bands of outlaws and desperadoes, and the ever-present threat from disease, illness, or ordinary injuries.
Always a good plot-line in so many Westerns! ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 05:44:31 PM
Greetings!
Context. Hmmm...well, single mommies in the ancient and medieval worlds were generally shafted, and hard. Unless the mommy had close family to take care of her and her children, she and the kids were screwed. Kids were either abandoned by the mommy, given away to family--or whoever, and the mommy becomes a prostitute. That was the "good" outcome. For the mommies that were young, sexy, and beautiful. The ugly women, the fat women, they routinely became impoverished beggars, and starved in the streets and gutters.
This was the constant reality facing unmarried single mommies throughout history. These dynamics have only changed because of the current reign of cucked and feminized social welfare states.
Having single mommies can be realistically portrayed in the game campaign. Typically, such women fill in the ranks of the hordes of prostitutes that throng most cities and towns, or, as mentioned, lay about in the gutters begging. A few more fortunate single mommies can maybe get by in large cities by working long, hard days as a laundry woman, cook, or also being a bar girl, or maybe working at a bathhouse. If she is not willing to be prostitute, such jobs don't pay much at all, so they must more than likely work two jobs, or three, six or seven days a week. That's just to get by, without being a prostitute or a starving beggar in the streets. Ancient Roman sources even describe how vast numbers of "ordinary" women, single women, that may have not been professional prostitutes, still practiced regular "part-time" prostitution, such as some laundry women or cooks working their normal, grinding jobs for much of the week, but for one or two nights per week, such women embraced opportunities serving as prostitutes. Such women were also opportunistic, in that they would indulge prostitution whenever very appealing opportunities presented themselves at any given time.
Throughout the world, such as in Egypt, Persia, Britain, India, or China, these dynamics expressed themselves as constant realities for lower class women, for poor women in general, and especially for single mommies.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Although that's historical, Phandalin is D&D American Frontier/Wild West not historical medieval or ancient world. The societies you describe were at or close to Malthusian limits. In Phandalin etc there's plenty of farm land for everyone, and not even any taxes to pay. Of course a widowed farm-wife in the Old West would still remarry as fast as possible, unless maybe she had plenty of adult male children/siblings/uncles.
Edit: An issue I do have with modern left-coast D&D (& Pathfinder) is that they keep the Wild West setup but then the characters have the mores of 21st century Seattle, a completely different society. So you have all these 'strong independent women' NPCs, most of the NPCs are unmarried, the gender/sex balance is either 50-50 or skewed female, and lots of homosexual 'married' couples ofc. I appreciate it's a fantasy game, but I like things to be justifiable. If you want a setting with Seattle mores, do an urban fantasy high magic setting, something like Eberron maybe.
Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2023, 02:07:10 AM
Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 05:44:31 PM
Greetings!
Context. Hmmm...well, single mommies in the ancient and medieval worlds were generally shafted, and hard. Unless the mommy had close family to take care of her and her children, she and the kids were screwed. Kids were either abandoned by the mommy, given away to family--or whoever, and the mommy becomes a prostitute. That was the "good" outcome. For the mommies that were young, sexy, and beautiful. The ugly women, the fat women, they routinely became impoverished beggars, and starved in the streets and gutters.
This was the constant reality facing unmarried single mommies throughout history. These dynamics have only changed because of the current reign of cucked and feminized social welfare states.
Having single mommies can be realistically portrayed in the game campaign. Typically, such women fill in the ranks of the hordes of prostitutes that throng most cities and towns, or, as mentioned, lay about in the gutters begging. A few more fortunate single mommies can maybe get by in large cities by working long, hard days as a laundry woman, cook, or also being a bar girl, or maybe working at a bathhouse. If she is not willing to be prostitute, such jobs don't pay much at all, so they must more than likely work two jobs, or three, six or seven days a week. That's just to get by, without being a prostitute or a starving beggar in the streets. Ancient Roman sources even describe how vast numbers of "ordinary" women, single women, that may have not been professional prostitutes, still practiced regular "part-time" prostitution, such as some laundry women or cooks working their normal, grinding jobs for much of the week, but for one or two nights per week, such women embraced opportunities serving as prostitutes. Such women were also opportunistic, in that they would indulge prostitution whenever very appealing opportunities presented themselves at any given time.
Throughout the world, such as in Egypt, Persia, Britain, India, or China, these dynamics expressed themselves as constant realities for lower class women, for poor women in general, and especially for single mommies.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Although that's historical, Phandalin is D&D American Frontier/Wild West not historical medieval or ancient world. The societies you describe were at or close to Malthusian limits. In Phandalin etc there's plenty of farm land for everyone, and not even any taxes to pay. Of course a widowed farm-wife in the Old West would still remarry as fast as possible, unless maybe she had plenty of adult male children/siblings/uncles.
Edit: An issue I do have with modern left-coast D&D (& Pathfinder) is that they keep the Wild West setup but then the characters have the mores of 21st century Seattle, a completely different society. So you have all these 'strong independent women' NPCs, most of the NPCs are unmarried, the gender/sex balance is either 50-50 or skewed female, and lots of homosexual 'married' couples ofc. I appreciate it's a fantasy game, but I like things to be justifiable. If you want a setting with Seattle mores, do an urban fantasy high magic setting, something like Eberron maybe.
One of the things I absolutely hate about the whole "it's fantasy, you can do what you want" view is that the word fantasy doesn't mean nonsensical. Even fantasy worlds have to abide by rules. That's worldbuilding 101. And while dragons and magic aren't real, the fact of the matter is that we have historical references for blacksmiths and farmers and unmarried women. Those historical references have an affect on what you see as probable within the mundane parts of that fantasy world. I can pick up a fantasy book and really get into the parts where magic is being flung in every direction as dragons reduce various parties to ash, but I'm immediately pulled out of the immersion when the writer/storyteller feels the need to insert the flamboyant openly gay couple and the tranny chick who looks like a chick but sounds like a dude (looking at you, Hogwarts Legacy).
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on February 24, 2023, 03:16:29 AM
One of the things I absolutely hate about the whole "it's fantasy, you can do what you want" view is that the word fantasy doesn't mean nonsensical. Even fantasy worlds have to abide by rules.
It should make sense to the inhabitants of the world. The NPCs know what their daily lives are, where their food comes from, how dangerous the wilds are, that sort of thing. One common trope I dislike is the undefended village surrounded by dangerous wilds full of hostile monsters. Even when I first started RPGs age 11 I naturally created fantasy villages with palisades to keep the monsters out. I was shocked when I first started encountering these unwalled 'starter town' villages. It only makes sense if the monsters are entering a previously safe area. No one is going to settle the wilds of the Sword Coast or Varisia and not build a wall!
(https://media.tenor.com/tCCFm4qZx50AAAAM/wall-donald-trump.gif)
Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2023, 03:27:12 AM
Quote from: Wasteland Sniper on February 24, 2023, 03:16:29 AM
One of the things I absolutely hate about the whole "it's fantasy, you can do what you want" view is that the word fantasy doesn't mean nonsensical. Even fantasy worlds have to abide by rules.
It should make sense to the inhabitants of the world. The NPCs know what their daily lives are, where their food comes from, how dangerous the wilds are, that sort of thing. One common trope I dislike is the undefended village surrounded by dangerous wilds full of hostile monsters. Even when I first started RPGs age 11 I naturally created fantasy villages with palisades to keep the monsters out. I was shocked when I first started encountering these unwalled 'starter town' villages. It only makes sense if the monsters are entering a previously safe area. No one is going to settle the wilds of the Sword Coast or Varisia and not build a wall!
(https://media.tenor.com/tCCFm4qZx50AAAAM/wall-donald-trump.gif)
Even or especially whimsical fantasy has to abide by rules or everything falls appart.
If I were village Elder, I'd build a wall and make the Kappa pay for it.
Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2023, 03:27:12 AM
It should make sense to the inhabitants of the world. The NPCs know what their daily lives are, where their food comes from, how dangerous the wilds are, that sort of thing. One common trope I dislike is the undefended village surrounded by dangerous wilds full of hostile monsters. Even when I first started RPGs age 11 I naturally created fantasy villages with palisades to keep the monsters out. I was shocked when I first started encountering these unwalled 'starter town' villages. It only makes sense if the monsters are entering a previously safe area. No one is going to settle the wilds of the Sword Coast or Varisia and not build a wall!
I agree about the palisade - and there are a ton of things that don't make sense about typical D&D community. D&D communities are very high-magic, with even a small-village portrayed as having multiple spell casters. They have polytheistic religions, where the gods' wills are known since clerics lose their magic if they turn away from their god. They have mixes of demi-human beings living in society, and bands of monsters wandering around in the vast open wilderness.
As people have noted, the villages tend to be portrayed more like Wild West small towns rather than medieval Europe -- but that doesn't make any more sense. The social structures are bizarre. In Village of Hommlet, Rufus and Byrne aren't portrayed as the feudal lords of the town. They're two "retired adventurer" who just happened to settle there, and are now with their men-at-arms are twenty single men living in a tower. They are supposedly "friends" of the people of the town.
Logically, the magic and religion should have profound influence on the fabric of society, but instead, everything is just based on generic fantasy tropes rather than being true to the worldbuilding logic. I'm not a stickler for world-building, but yeah, I never got into the typical D&D society as portrayed - either by TSR or WotC. For worldbuilding, something like Harn was much more coherent.
Quote from: jhkim on February 24, 2023, 01:18:32 PM
As people have noted, the villages tend to be portrayed more like Wild West small towns rather than medieval Europe -- but that doesn't make any more sense. The social structures are bizarre. In Village of Hommlet, Rufus and Byrne aren't portrayed as the feudal lords of the town. They're two "retired adventurer" who just happened to settle there, and are now with their men-at-arms are twenty single men living in a tower. They are supposedly "friends" of the people of the town.
Yeah, I found that really weird too when I noticed it. In my Damara campaign I used Hommlet and made Rufus 'Thane' of Hommlet, basically something between a Reeve and a landed Knight, below Baron rank, vassal to the Duke of Arcata.
One of the PC adventurer groups in the campaign took over a ruined Keep (after killing some orc brigands), then recruited some ex-bandits to man it. They needed to regularise their position, luckily one of them Sir Thibault was an aristocrat/knight and was able to get a manor grant from the new Duchess of Carmathan. When he died his NPC friend Sir Sirondar Altur Banacath, another knight and a relative of the King, took over the manor. So the PCs get to live there, but they don't own it.
Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2023, 01:39:33 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 24, 2023, 01:18:32 PM
As people have noted, the villages tend to be portrayed more like Wild West small towns rather than medieval Europe -- but that doesn't make any more sense. The social structures are bizarre. In Village of Hommlet, Rufus and Byrne aren't portrayed as the feudal lords of the town. They're two "retired adventurer" who just happened to settle there, and are now with their men-at-arms are twenty single men living in a tower. They are supposedly "friends" of the people of the town.
Yeah, I found that really weird too when I noticed it. In my Damara campaign I used Hommlet and made Rufus 'Thane' of Hommlet, basically something between a Reeve and a landed Knight, below Baron rank, vassal to the Duke of Arcata.
One of the PC adventurer groups in the campaign took over a ruined Keep (after killing some orc brigands), then recruited some ex-bandits to man it. They needed to regularise their position, luckily one of them Sir Thibault was an aristocrat/knight and was able to get a manor grant from the new Duchess of Carmathan. When he died his NPC friend Sir Sirondar Altur Banacath, another knight and a relative of the King, took over the manor. So the PCs get to live there, but they don't own it.
Interesting. Sounds like you made a bunch of changes in how the setting. Did Rufus as Thane still have 18 soldiers encamped in barracks in his tower?
The last time I used Village of Hommlet, it was in a sort of mirror universe where Rufus and Byrne were slaving warlords, so I had changed it even more -- though I will say that twenty armed single men in a tower makes more sense as a war band than as peaceful friends of the town. It brings to mind SHARK's earlier comment:
Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 06:34:38 PM
It also reminded me of the rather frequent occasions I've read about Medieval Nobles and such, with their retainers and hangers-on. I can recall a mix of lesser nobles, middle-class Yeomen, veteran mercenaries, as well as barbarian raiders--or "former barbarian marauders" as well as the occasional "Former criminal" or scandalized ex-clergyman, serving as retainers or whatever nobleman. And these retainers were also often very much *Murder Hobos* *Laughing*
Technically, the war band weren't hobos since they had permanent living quarters, but they were certainly murderous. :-)
Quote from: S'mon on February 24, 2023, 02:07:10 AM
Quote from: SHARK on February 23, 2023, 05:44:31 PM
Greetings!
Context. Hmmm...well, single mommies in the ancient and medieval worlds were generally shafted, and hard. Unless the mommy had close family to take care of her and her children, she and the kids were screwed. Kids were either abandoned by the mommy, given away to family--or whoever, and the mommy becomes a prostitute. That was the "good" outcome. For the mommies that were young, sexy, and beautiful. The ugly women, the fat women, they routinely became impoverished beggars, and starved in the streets and gutters.
This was the constant reality facing unmarried single mommies throughout history. These dynamics have only changed because of the current reign of cucked and feminized social welfare states.
Having single mommies can be realistically portrayed in the game campaign. Typically, such women fill in the ranks of the hordes of prostitutes that throng most cities and towns, or, as mentioned, lay about in the gutters begging. A few more fortunate single mommies can maybe get by in large cities by working long, hard days as a laundry woman, cook, or also being a bar girl, or maybe working at a bathhouse. If she is not willing to be prostitute, such jobs don't pay much at all, so they must more than likely work two jobs, or three, six or seven days a week. That's just to get by, without being a prostitute or a starving beggar in the streets. Ancient Roman sources even describe how vast numbers of "ordinary" women, single women, that may have not been professional prostitutes, still practiced regular "part-time" prostitution, such as some laundry women or cooks working their normal, grinding jobs for much of the week, but for one or two nights per week, such women embraced opportunities serving as prostitutes. Such women were also opportunistic, in that they would indulge prostitution whenever very appealing opportunities presented themselves at any given time.
Throughout the world, such as in Egypt, Persia, Britain, India, or China, these dynamics expressed themselves as constant realities for lower class women, for poor women in general, and especially for single mommies.
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Although that's historical, Phandalin is D&D American Frontier/Wild West not historical medieval or ancient world. The societies you describe were at or close to Malthusian limits. In Phandalin etc there's plenty of farm land for everyone, and not even any taxes to pay. Of course a widowed farm-wife in the Old West would still remarry as fast as possible, unless maybe she had plenty of adult male children/siblings/uncles.
Edit: An issue I do have with modern left-coast D&D (& Pathfinder) is that they keep the Wild West setup but then the characters have the mores of 21st century Seattle, a completely different society. So you have all these 'strong independent women' NPCs, most of the NPCs are unmarried, the gender/sex balance is either 50-50 or skewed female, and lots of homosexual 'married' couples ofc. I appreciate it's a fantasy game, but I like things to be justifiable. If you want a setting with Seattle mores, do an urban fantasy high magic setting, something like Eberron maybe.
Greetings!
Hah! *Laughing* S'mon, that's interesting! Your commentary bout the American Wild West made me remember something. I read some scholarly article or book for research--for one of my US History classes at college, where the author--a woman--wrote about women on the American frontier, with some focus especially on how and who survived as "single women". I also note that the economy was *physical*--not especially industrial, but also none of this "Pink Collar" Information Age or Service Economy nonsense going on. I guess Agricultural would be appropriate. Everything was physical, and men exelled. Men, of almost any age, could go anywhere and do almost anything, and thrive or at least survive. Women, on the other hand, not counting the actually married women--but the single women--were typically absolutely useless, and utterly helpless. Most that were single or became single mommies--left quickly to return to civilization, if they could manage it. Otherwise, they typically--and quickly--died from poverty, leading to malnutrition, starvation, and disease. The often brutal weather also became lethal--most especially the cold winters. They lasted weeks, maybe a few months, and that was it. More bodies to be buried. So, who survived, and perhaps thrived?
According to the woman scholar--I think she was a historian or anthropologist--she wrote that for most women that survived on their own--becoming a prostitute was the main avenue, and seemed to be the primary way that the women survived. Some, interestingly, were smart, saved their money, and opened up their own brothel, and became *wealthy*. Some even managed to become prominent citizens of the community--sort of. Behind closed doors, besides their explicit services and obvious profession--some were well known for their generous charity, funding orphanages, medical clinics, soup kitchens, schools, and even, *ahem*--churches. *Laughing* Yes, most of the proper folks in society--especially the preachers, but vociferously, nearly all of the married women--contantly condemned the prostitute women, and spoke scathingly against them at every opportunity. Being attacked, beaten, and even killed--by married wives, or even various men from society--was a frequent concern for many of the prostitute women. So, yeah. There's that. Interesting stuff! Prostitutes often lived *interesting* lives, getting into fights with women, violent, drunk men, jealous lovers, jealous wives seeking revenge, a whole trainload of drama was frequent for most of them.
I thought it was especially interesting when the woman scholar talked also about the single women, the single mommies--that managed to survive or thrive, and not do so by becoming prostitutes. Options were definitely limited, as I mentioned earlier. Women are small, and weak, compared to men. In such environments, women were generally useless, often helpless, and more or less a burden. There were some that managed to prosper, and also maintain their dignity and virtue. Such driven, resourceful women would set up their own bake shop--even out of their log cabin house, or something little more than a shack. Baking fresh bread, pies, and such like. Other women got busy cooking for real--making soups for the miners, sandwiches or other meals for lumberjacks, wagon drivers, farmers, what have you. In areas where men outnumbered women 100 to 1, or 200, or 300 to 1--these women were quickly seen as an absolute *treasure* to all of the men around. Also, some women opened up their own medical clinics. Obviously, such as these required considerable skills and knowledge, and a few women got involved, and did their best. Mining communities, logging camps, and such--needed all the help they could get. A trained doctor was typically *days* away, sometimes longer. So, having a few women about that provided some kind of nursing or medical service, was definitely appreciated. Another, much more common service than medical, was apparently a decent number of women got busy doing laundry, like, massive amounts of laundry, cleaning and washing clothes for dozens of men, each and every day. These women, too, became well-respected and valued. A few women also managed to get involved with setting up a boarding house, where they also cooked, cleaned, and did laundry, for mostly entirely a clientele made up of men. Some women also helped establish local churches, and provided food, board, and support for traveling preachers, often of course encouraging a traveling preacher to settle down permanently, as a local, and establish a Church. Strangely, while prostitutes were of course popular with these numerous communities of men--having a church or a preacher about was also a priority, despite the obvious philosophical and moral conflicts. Miners, loggers, workmen, ranchers--all wanted a preacher in their midst, to teach them, and preach to them the Bible. Men gave them money, and provided support for Godly men to be preachers, and to live safely and securely within their community.
Most of the successful single women--many of which were also single mommies--eventually also managed to get married, typically within a few years, sometimes five or ten. It's also interesting to note how all of these single women that thrived in male dominated communities--many of which actually eventually developed into villages and towns themselves--were, if they were not prostitutes--they were strictly moral, and very disciplined and upright. The local men came to respect them, value them, and more than a few of them were protected from violent, predatory men, or men seeking to rob them, cheat them, or otherwise abuse them--by many men, with guns, knives, and axe handles. Fucking with these women in a bad way was a quick way for a villainous man to get himself beaten to death, shot, or stretched up quick hanging from a nearby tree.
No judges around, no courts, no lawmen. If the baker girl said you cheated her of what you owed--or tried to force her, yeah. Her word to the other local men, and this guy was fucked. It is interesting to see how many of these local men, were of course regular customers, to the baker girl, the cook, the laundry girl, the girl making beer, often on a daily basis, were straight, respectful, and honourable to such women--even while being often rough and vulgar themselves. These frontier communities were fiercely protective of the precious few single women that lived in their midst.
When the single women or the single mommies--became involved with a new man, it was virtually always leading to marriage. The women openly made their relationship with such a man--very prominent, and known to everyone. Being married and having a husband was extremely valued and important, even for a single woman that had somehow managed to survive on her own, or with a couple of kids. Women needed men, and men, also needed women. It was considered the proper and right way for everyone to live, as a preference, and an absolute standard and ideal. Most such local men--friends and customers of such women--were proud and happy when these women found themselves married, or remarried, after losing their original husband for whatever reason. These single women, and even the single mommies in such frontier settlements, often had a frequent and growing list of men, eager and willing to marry them. Most of these women never married a wealthy man at all, but typically a longstanding local man, a miner, rancher, lumberjack, that had been persistent, and just got on with her well, and also willing to accept any children she had from her earlier life. Some also married traveling preachers, who then settled down with them to establish a local church and also have a bunch of kids together.
Very interesting reading. I wish I could remember the author, and the name of the article or book. Ah well, that's how it goes. The knowledge she wrote about and discussed has stayed with me, though. Very interesting how men--and women--survived in these communities out on the frontiers of the Old West!
From a gaming perspective--I think that embracing some of these otherwise harsh and often ugly realities makes for not just a more believable game, with a more immersive feel to it, but also far more interesting and entertaining than having some kind of cookie-cutter like middle class upright and prosperous community that seems to come out of a real estate magazine, all the while embracing some bizarre Seattle 2023 vibe where women are empowered, and all races and rainbow hippos are celebrated--instead of actually being modeled on something close to a frontier reality.
Good stuff, my friend!
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: SHARK on February 24, 2023, 03:34:18 PM
I thought it was especially interesting when the woman scholar talked also about the single women, the single mommies--that managed to survive or thrive, and not do so by becoming prostitutes. Options were definitely limited, as I mentioned earlier. Women are small, and weak, compared to men. In such environments, women were generally useless, often helpless, and more or less a burden. There were some that managed to prosper, and also maintain their dignity and virtue. Such driven, resourceful women would set up their own bake shop--even out of their log cabin house, or something little more than a shack. Baking fresh bread, pies, and such like. Other women got busy cooking for real--making soups for the miners, sandwiches or other meals for lumberjacks, wagon drivers, farmers, what have you. In areas where men outnumbered women 100 to 1, or 200, or 300 to 1--these women were quickly seen as an absolute *treasure* to all of the men around.
The American frontier where there were areas of 100:1 men to women is an unusual situation, though -- and not necessarily a good fit for a medieval fantasy town. It seems obvious to me that if there are vastly more men than women, then prostitution will be a much more common and profitable occupation than normal.
In more typical communities where there are 50% women, prostitution still existed and was common, but it wasn't necessarily the dominant profession of women. The archetypal occupation of an unmarried woman in medieval Europe was combing, carding, and spinning wool -- hence the term "spinster" became synonymous with a single woman. But many women had other professions, like midwifery, brewing, weaving, dairymaking, and candle making. All of these were often seen as predominantly female professions - though not necessarily by single women. Depending on the area, women could also have professions in more typically male trades, though that was often restricted by law.
My current campaign is based on the Incan Empire, where similarly women often had positions as skilled crafters - especially in brewing chicha and weaving wool. So that's similar to Europe, though in the Andes, brewery and weaving were much higher status than in Europe.
Quote from: jhkim on February 24, 2023, 04:51:40 PM
Quote from: SHARK on February 24, 2023, 03:34:18 PM
I thought it was especially interesting when the woman scholar talked also about the single women, the single mommies--that managed to survive or thrive, and not do so by becoming prostitutes. Options were definitely limited, as I mentioned earlier. Women are small, and weak, compared to men. In such environments, women were generally useless, often helpless, and more or less a burden. There were some that managed to prosper, and also maintain their dignity and virtue. Such driven, resourceful women would set up their own bake shop--even out of their log cabin house, or something little more than a shack. Baking fresh bread, pies, and such like. Other women got busy cooking for real--making soups for the miners, sandwiches or other meals for lumberjacks, wagon drivers, farmers, what have you. In areas where men outnumbered women 100 to 1, or 200, or 300 to 1--these women were quickly seen as an absolute *treasure* to all of the men around.
The American frontier where there were areas of 100:1 men to women is an unusual situation, though -- and not necessarily a good fit for a medieval fantasy town. It seems obvious to me that if there are vastly more men than women, then prostitution will be a much more common and profitable occupation than normal.
In more typical communities where there are 50% women, prostitution still existed and was common, but it wasn't necessarily the dominant profession of women. The archetypal occupation of an unmarried woman in medieval Europe was combing, carding, and spinning wool -- hence the term "spinster" became synonymous with a single woman. But many women had other professions, like midwifery, brewing, weaving, dairymaking, and candle making. All of these were often seen as predominantly female professions - though not necessarily by single women. Depending on the area, women could also have professions in more typically male trades, though that was often restricted by law.
My current campaign is based on the Incan Empire, where similarly women often had positions as skilled crafters - especially in brewing chicha and weaving wool. So that's similar to Europe, though in the Andes, brewery and weaving were much higher status than in Europe.
Greetings!
Right, Jhkim, the Old West environment is considerably different from a Medieval environment. However, I was directing my commentary to S'mon's excellent observation that Frontier Settlements and Communities--as presented in modules, etc, by TSR and WOTC--have historically been primarily based off of a foundational theme of *The Old West*--and much less so that of an Ancient or Medieval theme. Adding an uber-modernistic, Woke Rainbow Seattle utopian gloss to such presentations, as Honeydipper discussed as well as S'mon--makes the presentation a stylistic and narrative mess. Especially for any DM that seeks to even remotely embrace a historical, Medieval-Fantasy milieu.
As for medieval cities and urban towns--yes, they presented certainly more professional options for women--especially single women, or single mommies--though even in such environments, the professional options available to such women were quite limited, and even in many cases, restricted entirely by law. It's also interesting to note that in Medieval European cultures, society fully expected young, single women--to be married and to be busy with their own children by the age of 21 or their early twenties. Socially, if a woman reached the age of 25 and was unmarried--she would be considered *old* and doomed to being a spinster, as you mentioned.
Unlike in our current, debauched society, in the Medieval society, being *single* was considered to be a necessary--but temporary--condition to be endured, rather than approved of--much less being celebrated or promoted.
For the diligent DM, all of these elements--the social conventions, the religious culture, the economic systems, the professional occupations and avenues, and the entire way that the family was structured, maintained, and viewed throughout society, and also the different social attitudes and relationships regarding different races--are all important factors in developing and presenting a coherent campaign. Even a campaign that by degree is more or less historically medieval--also requires these considerations.
Our own current rainbow-flavoured, feminist society as showcased by Seattle 2023 is an absolute incoherent, dysfunctional mess. Therefore, it isn't surprising that many gamers and DM's in particular--such as Honeydipper and S'mon--find so many of the settlements, villages, and towns presented in WOTC modules as being disturbingly jarring, and consistently an incoherent and dysfunctional narrative mess. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Quote from: jhkim on February 24, 2023, 02:43:59 PM
Interesting. Sounds like you made a bunch of changes in how the setting. Did Rufus as Thane still have 18 soldiers encamped in barracks in his tower?
Yes, but they were a lot more active than presented. Once the PCs discovered the secret Moathouse entrance, Rufus & Burne and their warband of ex-bandits assaulted it and massacred Lareth and his cultists.
Much later, Rufus Burne and most of their men were killed in an ambush by carrion worms of the demon lord Qorgeth in the ruins of another nearby village. Currently Elmo the Ranger is steward of Hommlet, reporting to PC Baron Norrin.
+3
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 22, 2023, 02:16:56 AM
Quote from: jhkim on February 22, 2023, 12:05:44 AM
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 21, 2023, 03:37:12 PM
Quote from: jhkim on February 21, 2023, 11:57:38 AM
Quote from: S'mon on February 21, 2023, 05:23:15 AM
I'm not sure it was stupid - WoTC have been working hard on 'divide & conquer' tactics, stirring up race hate, and now Brink has a bunch of lefties defending his comments. Result. Plus it was a deflection tactic - the interviewers want blacks in well paid & powerful executive roles, so Brink starts talking about getting rid of basement dwelling white players, & hiring poorly paid PoC designers...
I agree. I suspect that this has done exactly what it has intended. WotC hasn't had to do any action that is actually leftist - not even hire more poorly-paid PoC designers.
Instead, simply by a few words, he's changed the conversation from being about their corporate overreach of IP (which had gamers united against them) to being about oppression of white people (which left-leaning gamers won't sign on about).
That interview got me to sail the high seas on all D&D content and share the method to do it with all my groups. Hey its only 12 people, but if they share with 2 more a piece that's 24 and so on. Kudo's Brink.
Other people feel the same way. I'm also OFF D&D Beyond as a platform and using Fantasy Grounds in lieu and training my players to use it as well. Again, congrats Brink.
Interesting, honeydipperdavid. Many posters here left WotC several years ago, and if not, at least after their attempt to cancel the OGL back in January. Pundit has been very vocal in anti-WotC talk, and it seems like especially conservative posters have tended to agree with him.
Personally, I left WotC over their OGL debacle in January. I never had a D&D Beyond account, but I gave up WotC products after that.
I'd be curious about your staying loyal to them until now, and then leaving after the Brink interview. How would you sum up your view compared to Pundit's and other conservative posters?
I had already cancelled D&D Beyond over OGL, Brink's statement guaranteed I would never resubscribe. I quit buying any original content once WotC decided to label 4E and earlier content racist on Drivethru. I've been using existing older content updated to 5E to specifically not give WotC any revenue and using the books I already have owned. I started working my groups to use other RPG's using the OGL as the excuse to move 12 people away from D&D and it worked. Brink's behavior got me to show my players ways of getting 5E content without funding WotC. I've made it a point to mention when visiting a hobby shop if they have the D&D Beyond code bundled in their books? They say no, and I come back but WotC is planning on doing that, how come they aren't offering it to stores to piss the owners off against WotC. It would be easier now to spread that little bit of disontent towards WotC at game stores now that the store for D&D with the D&D Beyond code is live.
And no, I'm not a conservative, I'm a moderate. WotC is went social marxist like most of the dreg misanthropes who work in the far left coast. A moderate doesn't judge someone based on their skin, a leftist social marxist does, they simply replaced class because the US gives you the opportunity to own private property, run a business and access to decide where you want to work so class based communism didn't work, its why they went to social marxism to use race as the primary attack on the United States. Moderates and now Conservatives don't support needless wars due to cost and pointless deaths the left meanwhile absorbed the neocon/neolib. Ask yourself, who will have a Ukrainian flag on, an Antifa member or a small business owner, its the Antifa member.
WotC bowed to the leftists because of twitter bots, well plenty of people can hit them in their bottom line from the people who did buy their content and WotC turned them into anti-consumers directing sales problems to WotC itself.
+5
Quote from: honeydipperdavid on February 15, 2023, 11:03:20 AM
There are study after study where white left talking to blacks talk down to them. What I want to see is a study when a white leftie is talking to perceived poor whites. Anecdotally, I have a rich leftard that married into my family and whenever I listen to them talk its nothing but patronizing down to the poor white folk (trans one of the kids, prevented them from doing chores get a job at 16 to learn work ethic, didn't teach them to grow food or can and didn't teach them how to shoot - if the world goes to hell their kids are dead in 3 days). You know, us poor whites who run million dollar businesses, IT workers who live rural - you know dirt poor. I mean they must be retards because they grow their own food, can their own food, own firearms and have no issues defending themselves. I mean they can't even afford a home in Connecticut for peats sake, damn poors. I wonder what a white leftie would behave around whites who are not middle class? I'd love to see that study. /social class based rant.
I'd be surprised if the execs at WotC would even recognize their customers as humans if they aren't worth at least $500K+.
+6
Quote from: Mistwell on February 09, 2023, 01:19:35 AM
He said (if you listen to the whole friggen thing rather than a summary) they want a diverse pool to choose from, and then once thy have that pool, they choose the best candidate. Nothing illegal about that, and he was VERY clear in not talking about the hobby players themselves.
The confusion might be there are TWO interviews now with the guy, talking about similar topics.
But hey, you go on with the "discredit anyone who interferes with our spin" tactics mang. It's what works for threads like this and I am sure you will get lots of backpats and attaboys.
Since when does a "diverse pool" mean fuck all when deciding on quality candidates unless you are virtue signalling? A resume should be judged based on the qualities they think are best for the position. Ideally, names and other identifying information should be redacted and candidates chosen by their achievements. Wasn't it MLK Jr who said that we should judge by the content of character rather than skin color?
Diversity is simply a signal that you are anti-white.
What was up with the banned guy and the "+3, +5, +6..." posts?
Quote from: Aglondir on June 28, 2023, 07:53:09 PM
What was up with the banned guy and the "+3, +5, +6..." posts?
Greetings!
Aglondir! That guy was probably banned for being a spam-bot moron. ;D
Semper Fidelis,
SHARK
Moved away from D&D years ago anyway lmao. Trash casterwank system
<Stupid comment deleted>
Quote from: Scooter on August 04, 2023, 08:35:25 AM
Nothing new. Leftists tend to be racists. Why do you think the DNC named KKK Sen. Robert Byrd as the "conscious of the Senate" and not a single Dem made a public fuss over it?
Please don't shift to off-topic political commentary. That's not allowed here. You can talk all the rpg-politics you like, but your post will encourage other people to go off into regular politics, and that's thread-derailment.
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 04, 2023, 10:11:10 AM
Quote from: Scooter on August 04, 2023, 08:35:25 AM
Nothing new. Leftists tend to be racists. Why do you think the DNC named KKK Sen. Robert Byrd as the "conscious of the Senate" and not a single Dem made a public fuss over it?
Please don't shift to off-topic political commentary. That's not allowed here. You can talk all the rpg-politics you like, but your post will encourage other people to go off into regular politics, and that's thread-derailment.
My apologies. Can you delete?
Quote from: Scooter on August 04, 2023, 11:43:38 AM
Quote from: RPGPundit on August 04, 2023, 10:11:10 AM
Quote from: Scooter on August 04, 2023, 08:35:25 AM
Nothing new. Leftists tend to be racists. Why do you think the DNC named KKK Sen. Robert Byrd as the "conscious of the Senate" and not a single Dem made a public fuss over it?
Please don't shift to off-topic political commentary. That's not allowed here. You can talk all the rpg-politics you like, but your post will encourage other people to go off into regular politics, and that's thread-derailment.
My apologies. Can you delete?
You can always click "Modify" and delete the text within the post. We've all had to do that on occasion... ;D
Quote from: Eirikrautha on August 04, 2023, 02:34:27 PM
You can always click "Modify" and delete the text within the post. We've all had to do that on occasion... ;D
Thanks for the tip!
(https://media.tenor.com/leyZaJjN9vsAAAAC/cute-love-food.gif)
Quote from: Domina on August 03, 2023, 11:59:00 PM
Moved away from D&D years ago anyway lmao. Trash casterwank system
I didn't even have to move away from it :D
D&D is weird. If you start with a decent alternative system it has very little appeal (apart from the vast amount of modules I suppose, but they are often incompatible if you have the wrong D&D edition).
Quote from: Trond on August 05, 2023, 12:52:34 PM
Quote from: Domina on August 03, 2023, 11:59:00 PM
Moved away from D&D years ago anyway lmao. Trash casterwank system
I didn't even have to move away from it :D
D&D is weird. If you start with a decent alternative system it has very little appeal (apart from the vast amount of modules I suppose, but they are often incompatible if you have the wrong D&D edition).
I agree. I'm not a hater, but D&D rules don't do it for me. I prefer games that don't make you into a hit point punching bag as you level up.
Official D&D can insult us all they want, I'm not their customer, and the OSR and indie scenes got me covered.
Quote from: Trond on August 05, 2023, 12:52:34 PM
I didn't even have to move away from it :D
D&D is weird. If you start with a decent alternative system it has very little appeal (apart from the vast amount of modules I suppose, but they are often incompatible if you have the wrong D&D edition).
This is true of the WOTC editions. Old TSR content is very compatible between systems. A given old school module could be run with OD&D, B/X, or AD&D, or even clones such as OSE, Labyrinth Lord, OSRIC and several others with very little if any modification needed. That is what makes OSR content so useful. Those without D&D experience may not be aware of this.