Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 11:02:58 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 11, 2023, 10:52:13 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 11, 2023, 10:18:08 PMNope, when you talk about career choice it's not only (or mainly) about what you're good at, but what you like. So, in more wealthy societies when you flaten the societal aspect to make it more egalitarian you end up exacerbating the preference differences.

Yes, and women in general like people over things, language and interaction over stats and figures.

I laid out a very long and nuanced argument about women in gaming, mentioned repeatedly these were generalities and their were exceptions. Nowhere in a single post did I say women are infants, and can't learn basic rules or math. Go and find me these quotes, or STFU.

You got triggered, pulled a strawman from your asshole, and started trying to appeal to emotion to draw people to attack me. You've acted like an clown.

You even agreed with me by saying women that can't handle some maths and rules should find another hobby, (after I'd already said women who don't mind those things have always been in the hobby, and we shouldn't dumb down to try and appeal to different women) but you were so busy honking your red nose that this fact flew over your head.

Just take the L and move on.

I never would agree with you that women are infants and can't do arithmetics.

Here's your "nuanced" argument that you claim I strawmaned:

QuoteThe fraction of women that enjoy rpg's TEND to not enjoy the mechanical crunch AS MUCH as the fraction of men that enjoy RPG's, but there are certainly exceptions = women are infants and can't do arithmatic!

Now take the L and go pound sand with the mysoginists at WotC, TBP.

Erm, my quote was AFTER your strawman, and is obviously poking fun at your ridiculous false equivalency. I don't know where your mania ends, and your limited ability to parse written English begins. I can only assure you that you look absolutely ridiculous with your doubling and tripling down on nothing.

Anyone reading this: go back and read my posts, you'll find not a single mention of women having less capability than men. Bugle is fighting phantoms in his own brain.

It's sad, Bugle, because you spend so much time railing against behaviour you're now engaging in textbook examples of. I hold no beef, despite you repeatedly insulting and attacking me personally over imagined BS. Seriously, step away from the keyboard and touch grass.

Yeah. Forgive him - Geeky is kinda on spectrum and has some anger issues, so such storms about nothing in particular happens.

Indeed I agree - it's not matter of arithmetic talents (dammit I'm quite sure most accountants in my country are women, not sure about USA) but about enjoyment.
But on the other hand I'd also note that high crunchers are also generally minority within male fans of RPG, for most people high amount of crunch unless really well streamlined is just chore, taking away from interacting with fiction of the world or drama.

Quote from: Wrath of God on February 12, 2023, 05:05:49 AMBut on the other hand I'd also note that high crunchers are also generally minority within male fans of RPG, for most people high amount of crunch unless really well streamlined is just chore, taking away from interacting with fiction of the world or drama.

Sure, you want enough crunch to make tactical, and advancement, choices meaningful, without needless over-complexity. Some of the very old systems are laid out like technical manuals, and have charts and rules for every little thing.

So it makes sense that as companies discovered a better balance, and low crunch games came in to existence, the appeal widened. The difference was simply far more pronounced for female player numbers.

My concern is that in the march to appeal to large and larger sections of society, especially the average woman, they are stripping the complexity out of games. It is OK for women (in general) to like different things to men. I'm actually disturbed by how deep the Tabula Rasa meme has infested the West, so that even anti-wokist can buy in to it.

My wife is a very smart lady, highly educated, and used to work in a technical-adjacent field. She has no interest in learning game systems, or in plotting out her character advancement (whereas a lot of guys take great pleasure in pouring over rulebooks and mastering the minutiae). She is always complaining that the constant arithmetic is boring and annoying, and just wants to focus on the social aspects and how her character looks.

The only woman I've ever gamed with who actually obsessed over the technical details of roleplaying games is (prepared to be shocked) autistic, and a min-maxer.

QuoteMy concern is that in the march to appeal to large and larger sections of society, especially the average woman, they are stripping the complexity out of games. It is OK for women (in general) to like different things to men. I'm actually disturbed by how deep the Tabula Rasa meme has infested the West, so that even anti-wokist can buy in to it.

I'm really not. There is plenty crunchy things out there - I mean D&D 5e is still on more than less crunchy side if you consider all RPGs and games following D&D in charts of popularity - Call of Cthulhu and Pathfinder are not what I'd call rule-lite. New edition of Warhammer Fantasy arguably is crunchiest of all 4. It's wretched retroclone Zweihander even more.

QuoteThe only woman I've ever gamed with who actually obsessed over the technical details of roleplaying games is (prepared to be shocked) autistic, and a min-maxer.

And note how RPGSite OSR fans are promoting sandboxes, lite mechanics and curse later editions of D&D for allowing mini-maxing and planned builds
And arguably OSR is one of most sausage-festy subgroups in RPG.

It's no a matter of Tabula Rasa, it's a matter of competence vs enjoyment:

There's no rule or mechanic in most RPGs so complex most women aren't able to grok it.

The fact remains most don't want to, but that's also true for most men that aren't RPG gamers.

The problem arises when Wahmen (not women) demand the hobby changes to become something else THEY claim to enjoy in order to attract gazillions of women. Because the hobby as it is attracts more men than women, which is "problematic" for the Wahmen.

The narrative that if it was simpler, with less math/rules it would attract more women WAS created by these Wahmen, is perpetuated by their lackeys the Male Feminists. The truth is you can change it into something that MIGHT attract a small fraction of the women, but to do so you will loose most of your current customer base.

Because Romance Novels attract women while Military Sci-Fi attracts men. Which is fine, except if you're an activist.

Again, women can grok the hobby as is, they don't want to, because it's not their thing, and for those women that it is their thing... Well they are already in the hobby or can be recruited without changing ANYTHING.

It's like the narrative about black people, the fact is they don't participate out of societal pressure from their own communities, because "It's acting white". So, if you really want more blacks in the hobby you don't need to change the hobby, you need to change American black culture.

Likewise if you want more women (without loosing ANY current customer) you need to stop the activists from propagating the lie that women have ever not been welcome, that every LGS is at best a mysoginist den that will discriminate against them and at worst a den of rapists who will take turns on any woman foolish enough to enter.

Why are more women now than in the beggining? Because now it's seen as cool to participate in the hobby, it's no longer the sole domain of those stinky nerds/geeks. Same goes for every geek hobby that has gone mainstream.

Fuck, they have already started going after train modellers!

To reiterate, women can and have groked the hobby without changing it, the rest is just activist narrative propagated knowing it's a lie or not or by REAL mysoginists that think women inferior (yes all male feminists are the latter).

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 12, 2023, 03:26:30 PM
It's no a matter of Tabula Rasa, it's a matter of competence vs enjoyment:

There's no rule or mechanic in most RPGs so complex most women aren't able to grok it.

The fact remains most don't want to, but that's also true for most men that aren't RPG gamers.

The problem arises when Wahmen (not women) demand the hobby changes to become something else THEY claim to enjoy in order to attract gazillions of women. Because the hobby as it is attracts more men than women, which is "problematic" for the Wahmen.

The narrative that if it was simpler, with less math/rules it would attract more women WAS created by these Wahmen, is perpetuated by their lackeys the Male Feminists. The truth is you can change it into something that MIGHT attract a small fraction of the women, but to do so you will loose most of your current customer base.

Because Romance Novels attract women while Military Sci-Fi attracts men. Which is fine, except if you're an activist.

Again, women can grok the hobby as is, they don't want to, because it's not their thing, and for those women that it is their thing... Well they are already in the hobby or can be recruited without changing ANYTHING.

It's like the narrative about black people, the fact is they don't participate out of societal pressure from their own communities, because "It's acting white". So, if you really want more blacks in the hobby you don't need to change the hobby, you need to change American black culture.

Likewise if you want more women (without loosing ANY current customer) you need to stop the activists from propagating the lie that women have ever not been welcome, that every LGS is at best a mysoginist den that will discriminate against them and at worst a den of rapists who will take turns on any woman foolish enough to enter.

Why are more women now than in the beggining? Because now it's seen as cool to participate in the hobby, it's no longer the sole domain of those stinky nerds/geeks. Same goes for every geek hobby that has gone mainstream.

Fuck, they have already started going after train modellers!

To reiterate, women can and have groked the hobby without changing it, the rest is just activist narrative propagated knowing it's a lie or not or by REAL mysoginists that think women inferior (yes all male feminists are the latter).

Greetings!

Excellent, GeekyBugle!

In general, women have different interests than men do. Even when you do have women gamers--women tend to favour different aspects of the game than men do. Women typically love roleplaying, drama and developing stories. Math, rules, technical minutia--not so much. I would think that anyone playing with a decent number of women gamers would notice this very obvious distinction.

I don't understand these people that somehow want to insist that women MUST play the game the same way as men, and women enjoy the SAME aspects as men do! *Laughing* Why is it such a problem that women gamers have different preferences than men gamers?

It is what it is, you know? *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 12, 2023, 03:26:30 PM

Fuck, they have already started going after train modellers!

I'd be shocked, but after knitting got political, I think my bar got raised for that.

Gaming & Math

1) Public education in the USA has become a woketarded shitfest, thus more "graduates" of the system are unable to do the mental math that was basic and easy for previous generations. AKA, when you allow calculators in the classroom, the less students use their brains to do equations. AKA when you take rote learning out of the classroom, less students know their basic math computations by heart.

2) The media landscape of 1974, 1984 and 1994 are all different, but nothing compared to the explosion of entertainment options in last two decades. When people have FAR more diversions - particularly digital crack - the audience for more complex games which require more time, more thinking and more effort shrinks.

3) It's not just RPGs. This "dumbing down" has occurred in boardgames and miniatures gaming, because the market MUST respond to the realities of their audiences.

In many ways, it's not even "dumbing down" but recognizing that complexity turns off the casual gaming audience, many of whom could easily handle complex games, but the demands on their time (real or imagined) makes them avoid complex games.

As for male vs female, it's no surprise to anyone with any understanding of the two human sexes that RPGs were, are and will always be a predominantly male hobby.

And that's fine. Most men and most women like to do different things with their free time with a small number of exceptions who crossover into the other sex's hobbies for whatever reason.

On a personal note, I prefer simple rules / complex gameplay for all games. AKA, I like games with a minimum of rules, but lots of interesting non-mechanical stuff to do during the game or at least lots of interesting choices to use the minimal mechanics with.

Oh, and fuck WotC.
In the ass.
With a chainsaw.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Leadership roles may have, what, half a dozen positions?

So in a country that is still majority white, 6 white guys happened to be the best for the job is somehow proof that everything is racist, and we need a shake up.

I'll put a thousand dollars down on the barrel. If you can get a progressive to go to a business that happens to have 6 women/black people/Asians as leadership, and have the progressive tell them they're racist/sexist and need a few white guys.

I think my money is safe.

As it turns out, it was not 6. It's 20. There's 20 executive level positions in Wizards of the Coast. NONE of the 20 are currently held by a person of color.

I think that this might potentially indicate that Wizards of the Coast/ Hasbro is RACIST, and needs to fix this by honoring the great human rights campaigner Kyle Brink by granting the sincerest wish of his heart and firing him, replacing him with a person of color. And hey, let's go crazy, maybe that person of color could also be a game designer? Or at least a gamer?? Which would be better than almost any of the other execs.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 12, 2023, 07:05:29 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Leadership roles may have, what, half a dozen positions?

So in a country that is still majority white, 6 white guys happened to be the best for the job is somehow proof that everything is racist, and we need a shake up.

I'll put a thousand dollars down on the barrel. If you can get a progressive to go to a business that happens to have 6 women/black people/Asians as leadership, and have the progressive tell them they're racist/sexist and need a few white guys.

I think my money is safe.

As it turns out, it was not 6. It's 20. There's 20 executive level positions in Wizards of the Coast. NONE of the 20 are currently held by a person of color.

I think that this might potentially indicate that Wizards of the Coast/ Hasbro is RACIST, and needs to fix this by honoring the great human rights campaigner Kyle Brink by granting the sincerest wish of his heart and firing him, replacing him with a person of color. And hey, let's go crazy, maybe that person of color could also be a game designer? Or at least a gamer?? Which would be better than almost any of the other execs.

You forget they can just identify as Pronoun Wearers and Abracadabra! It's the most DiverseTM executive (board?) in the world evaaaaah.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on February 12, 2023, 07:11:56 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 12, 2023, 07:05:29 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 08, 2023, 04:39:26 PM
Leadership roles may have, what, half a dozen positions?

So in a country that is still majority white, 6 white guys happened to be the best for the job is somehow proof that everything is racist, and we need a shake up.

I'll put a thousand dollars down on the barrel. If you can get a progressive to go to a business that happens to have 6 women/black people/Asians as leadership, and have the progressive tell them they're racist/sexist and need a few white guys.

I think my money is safe.

You forget they can just identify as Pronoun Wearers and Abracadabra! It's the most DiverseTM executive (board?) in the world evaaaaah.

Now lets not get too drastic here.  The Exec doesn't have to know anything about gaming.  I would hope at the very least they'd hire Xindi X Canti, Linda Sarsour, Ilhan O'mar, Susan Rosenberg and Patrisse Cullors as their women and men of color.  Just imagine all the profit Habro would generate with all that diversity and magical skin?  Better yet if we could have them write the rules for 6E or at the very least each of them write an intersectional module for child ages 4+ to help trans them with a line to call to help the children escape to California.

I mean I'd like to be facetious here, but with how bad Hasbro has become, some of that could actually take place.

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 12, 2023, 07:05:29 PM
As it turns out, it was not 6. It's 20. There's 20 executive level positions in Wizards of the Coast. NONE of the 20 are currently held by a person of color.

So they HAS-NO-BRO. :-P

Quote from: RPGPundit on February 12, 2023, 07:05:29 PMAs it turns out, it was not 6. It's 20. There's 20 executive level positions in Wizards of the Coast. NONE of the 20 are currently held by a person of color.

Ah, but factor in some women, a few identifying as Queer, a 1/64th Cherokee, some Jewish guys; suddenly it's pretty diverse! Nothing at all like the stinky plebs in the playerbase.

WotC fires the diversity.

They are CLOSING their LATAM offices, everybody got the boot.

Seeing the people leading it nothing of value was lost.

https://twitter.com/carolgsmoraes/status/1625287763007250432/photo/1

Well the Braziian uses pronouns, so nothing of worth was lost.