A friend of mine really does NOT like D&D 4 at all, and has considered looking into an alternative fantasy setting, possibly based on the d20 OGL system.
Any suggestions? I'm not into fantasy but tried to steer him to "age of ruin" for EABA as it's a SF setting that can play like a fantasy setting.
We mentioned Conan. Isn't that a game of it's own now?
Also, what can anyone tell me to tell him about this "D&D essentials" I've heard about here?
When I first quit D&D I went straight to Runequest... that still seems like a viable move nowadays. Get away from the whole level/class treadmill... move to a more intuitive/cohesive set of rules... and a solid setting that is accessible but not bog-standard Tolkienesque Eurofantasy.
But it would probably be best to ask, why does your friend dislike 4e?
Quote from: Cylonophile;401442A friend of mine really does NOT like D&D 4 at all, and has considered looking into an alternative fantasy setting, possibly based on the d20 OGL system.
Any suggestions? I'm not into fantasy but tried to steer him to "age of ruin" for EABA as it's a SF setting that can play like a fantasy setting.
For non-4e, d20 OGL-based fantasy, Paizo's Pathfinder RPG is the obvious answer.
FantasyCraft is alos pretty nifty, especially if you dig fiddly chargen with dozens of options (paging Caesar Slaad... Caesar Slaad, please report to this thread...)
And of course, outside of the d20 OGL there are literally hundreds of options. But it's hard to tell without knowing your friend's preferences.
Quote from: Cylonophile;401442We mentioned Conan. Isn't that a game of it's own now?
It's been its own (d20 OGL low-magic fantasy) game for years now, but the licence's been pulled. I'm not sure on whether it's still available.
Quote from: Cylonophile;401442Also, what can anyone tell me to tell him about this "D&D essentials" I've heard about here?
There seems to be some confusion on whether it's a new edition with minor but significant changes ("4.5e") or just an introductory product.
Hope that helps.
Personally I think you're missing out on an excellent opportunity to play a totally different system, like Runequest or Rolemaster or even Pendragon or suchlike.
d20 as a system, shorn of its D&D connotations, is in my opinion very inelegant and not really fit for purpose.
If your friend specifically likes D20, then a couple of "blast from the past" options worth looking in to (besides the obvious choice of old WotC D20 books) would be Ptolus or Green Ronin's Freeport setting.
Looking further afield, Talislanta is free these days and very detailed - go for the fourth edition big blue book.
Quote from: Grymbok;401452Looking further afield, Talislanta is free these days and very detailed - go for the fourth edition big blue book.
Go straight for Talislanta 4e: a wonderful non-standard fantasy setting with a lot of background material and one of the most simple, intuitive and elegant game systems ever. I'm a D&D guy at heart but I cheated it with Talistanta for years and was a blast.
I recently did an article about 101 Fantasy Games That Aren't Pathfinder or D&D (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2010/08/101-fantasy-games-that-arent-pathfinder.html) (or close cousins of D&D, like C&C). It might provide some options you didn't already consider.
Depends on your preferences.
High fantasy, low fantasy, epic fantasy, dark fantasy, sword n' sorcery?
System lite or crunchy?
Talislanta is pretty good, though there's a lot of background to absorb. It is freely available, however (Talislanta.com). (It uses a d20, but isn't a "d20 system" game).
Warhammer (1st or 2nd ed) is pretty good if you like low-powered dark fantasy and don't mind losing an arm or leg every so often.
Tunnels and Trolls is good for newbie players and not entirely serious...
Earthdawn I always thought looked like a great setting but have never played...
Palladium Fantasy is the same system as Rifts minus the mega-damage.
Quote from: Zachary The First;401454I recently did an article about 101 Fantasy Games That Aren't Pathfinder or D&D (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2010/08/101-fantasy-games-that-arent-pathfinder.html) (or close cousins of D&D, like C&C). It might provide some options you didn't already consider.
I can't believe Book of Jalan made that list, Zachary! Both of the guys that bought it thank you!
Besides, it's really Science Fiction. I can't write Fantasy! :D
-clash
Pathfinder would be my first suggestion. But Everstone: Blood Legacy is awesome.
Quote from: Zachary The First;401454I recently did an article about 101 Fantasy Games That Aren't Pathfinder or D&D (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2010/08/101-fantasy-games-that-arent-pathfinder.html) (or close cousins of D&D, like C&C). It might provide some options you didn't already consider.
Your article is flawed, because it only lists the Fantasy Companion for Savage Worlds, but not the toolkits.
Did you just plain miss that?
Quote from: Cylonophile;401442We mentioned Conan. Isn't that a game of it's own now?
Quote from: The Butcher;401449It's been its own (d20 OGL low-magic fantasy) game for years now, but the licence's been pulled. I'm not sure on whether it's still available.
The license wasn't allowing Mongoose to do what they wanted with the line, so they've decided to let it lapse without investing any more effort into it. For the time being, the Conan products are still listed on the Mongoose website (at reduced prices), and are still available in stores. Some of the supplements are crap, but some are good, and with a large catalog of published items available at discount or second hand, Conan shouldn't be counted out, yet.
Cy, if your friend is fine with d20, and likes the idea of more footwork and swordplay in combats, and almost no spellcasting or christmas trees, then it deserves a look.
Quote from: Cylonophile;401442A friend of mine really does NOT like D&D 4 at all
It might help to know what was disliked about 4e to better triangulate an appropriate system. This assumes the game was played.
Quote from: Cylonophile;401442We mentioned Conan. Isn't that a game of it's own now?
Yeah, for the last 5 or 6 years. It's a pretty cool game, a good adaptation of Hyboria into gaming terms. Works well for those wanting a somewhat grittier, low-magic kind of d20 game.
Quote from: Zachary The First;401454I recently did an article about 101 Fantasy Games That Aren't Pathfinder or D&D (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2010/08/101-fantasy-games-that-arent-pathfinder.html) (or close cousins of D&D, like C&C). It might provide some options you didn't already consider.
That is a great list. As for the OP question I would look at the following
OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardry
Pathfinder
Hackmaster Basic
GURPS Fantasy
Hero System & Fantasy Hero
Harnmaster
Basic Roleplaying
These are all games that I refereed and they have varying levels of complexity and feel. Some require less books to buy than others.
It would help to know what your player's hangup with 4e was.
Quote from: TAFMSV;401462Some of the supplements are crap, but some are good, and with a large catalog of published items available at discount or second hand, Conan shouldn't be counted out, yet.
Yeah, I'm sure most of the books are easily available for sale online or, perhaps, at used bookstores or game shops.
My pick of the best supplements includes: Return to the Road of Kings (Hyborian gazetteer), Secrets of Skelos (sorcery in Hyboria, with NPCs, monsters, and cults), Ruins of Hyboria (adventure sites), and Bestiary of the Hyborian Age (a nifty monster book).
non d20: Barbarians of Lemuria.
Uh, just because he doesn't like 4e, doesn't mean he doesn't like D&D.
Try digging out the 'old' 3.0 or 3.5 books, or even the earlier stuff. It's a completely different game than 4e.
Quote from: Zachary The First;401454I recently did an article about 101 Fantasy Games That Aren't Pathfinder or D&D (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2010/08/101-fantasy-games-that-arent-pathfinder.html) (or close cousins of D&D, like C&C). It might provide some options you didn't already consider.
Awesome list. I was going to say like others: it heavily depends on what one exactly dislikes with 4E, and most importantly, what kind of gaming fantasy one is searching for in the first place.
Also, do you want other OGL/d20 propositions, or just non-d20 propositions? There are a shitload of "cousins to D&D" to borrow Zach's expression that might work better for you guys, if you aren't allergic to d20.
Quote from: flyingmice;401459I can't believe Book of Jalan made that list, Zachary! Both of the guys that bought it thank you!
Besides, it's really Science Fiction. I can't write Fantasy! :D
-clash
There's not much difference between sc-fi and fantasy most of the time anyway, and as one of the guys that bought Jalan, I agree, thanks :) It's a cool game and deserves some exposure.
Stop messing around and just get Warhammer. 2nd addition for a more traditional experience 3rd edition if you want to try something different but completely awesome.
Quote from: Zachary The First;401454I recently did an article about 101 Fantasy Games That Aren't Pathfinder or D&D (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2010/08/101-fantasy-games-that-arent-pathfinder.html) (or close cousins of D&D, like C&C). It might provide some options you didn't already consider.
No mention of Legend of Anglerre (http://www.cubicle-7.com/legends/legends.php)?
Also OP, a really obscure one is Fantasy Concepts (http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/fantasy-concepts-campaign-resource/1948776). It's a sword and sorcery re-skin of the Star Wars Saga Edition rules.
Check out Talislanta- it's free! :)
Quote from: Doom;401472Uh, just because he doesn't like 4e, doesn't mean he doesn't like D&D.
Yes, and just because he doesn't like D&D...doesn't tell us much.
The OP suggests that the friend is okay with D20 mechanics, just not the setting.
If you like mechanics but not the setting, then Pathfinder won't help much; it's got the same setting assumptions as D&D going all the way back to 3.0 and probably into 2e, maybe even farther. (Depends on what you want to focus on.)
FantasyCraft might help; the setting is a little more focused and less clearly bog-standard kitch-sink D&D-fantasy. On those grounds Conan OGL would also be a good or better option, if you can find it.
If you like D&D-ish fantasy but want something different from 4e, maybe even different from 3e/OGL, then Runequest isn't a very good choice since it has very different setting assumptions. (Note: I like all versions of RQ, but it's not D&D-type fantasy. I think there might be an RQ dungeon fantasy add-on though; if so then Bob's your uncle.) Rolemaster/MERP/HARP, Warhammer, Dragon Warriors, Palladium Fantasy, GURPS (with the right tweaks), Fantasy HERO (with the right tweaks), Legends of the Ancient World (aka, an update of The Fantasy Trip), Tunnels and Trolls, and Forward to Adventure! are all readily-available and roughly fill that niche.
Some other possibilities that I don't know so well: Iron Gauntlets, Dragon Age, Epic Role Playing.
About Talislanta: great setting, not very D&Dish on the surface, but probably can be played in a bunch of ways. Regarding the system, I'm partial to 2e and 3e over 4e. YMMV but bear in mind that the magic system changed quite a bit from 2e to 3e, and then even more radically with 4e, so different tastes will gravitate to one or the other. I think 3e is the most D&D-like in that it has extensive spell lists.
Mazes & Minotaurs
http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm
Why M&M?
1) It's free. Free is good.
And I don't mean just the core book. M&M has a stack of free supplements.
2) It's not JRR FauxTolk like most FRPGs.
It's FauxGreek Myths and wildly fresh.
3) There is something different about M&M in actual play than other FRPGs. I don't know how to quantify it, but it encourages a different roleplay experience at the table.
Quote from: Spinachcat;401524Mazes & Minotaurs
http://storygame.free.fr/MAZES.htm
Why M&M?
1) It's free. Free is good.
And I don't mean just the core book. M&M has a stack of free supplements.
2) It's not JRR FauxTolk like most FRPGs.
It's FauxGreek Myths and wildly fresh.
3) There is something different about M&M in actual play than other FRPGs. I don't know how to quantify it, but it encourages a different roleplay experience at the table.
It's the only 'old school' system that I have ever read that has peaked my interest.
Quote from: Zachary The First;401454I recently did an article about 101 Fantasy Games That Aren't Pathfinder or D&D (http://www.rpgblog2.com/2010/08/101-fantasy-games-that-arent-pathfinder.html) (or close cousins of D&D, like C&C). It might provide some options you didn't already consider.
I see a lot of games in your list that I like. Great list. :)
Quote from: Phantom Black;401461Your article is flawed, because it only lists the Fantasy Companion for Savage Worlds, but not the toolkits.
Did you just plain miss that?
Nah. I had 101 spots. I'm not going to have everything on there.
Well, some of the things joe said was that he does not the way 4e seems to be becoming a miniatures tabletop game and the rules seem to be written to push people towards miniatures and maps.
He also doesn't like the way the classes got redone, with every class now self healing and multi classing removed.
Not being into d20 or D2D I don't understand the last bit, I can understand not wanting to play a game that's going like GW and trying to sell overpriced miniatures.
Have you considered Forward... to Adventure!?
RPGPundit
Mazes and Minotaurs or Talislanta.
Quote from: RPGPundit;401580Have you considered Forward... to Adventure!?
RPGPundit
What's the system like?
It's a nice coincidence that this thread showed up - this morning I was just about to start a thread asking a similar question. I thought I'd ask here for suggestions for a Fantasy RPG to use next time around, for the sake of trying out something new.
What I'm looking for: I'd like to run a pretty straightforward dungeon-based game in the sense of, say Castle Greyhawk - exploring the main dungeon over time. I'd like a system that basically maximizes the number of rooms the party could hope to explore in a given session, and minimizes the amount of homework I have to do between games - i.e. NPC/Monster stats, math in general.
I don't want a complex or rules-heavy system. Particularly, I want to avoid any given fight taking a long time, or a calculation to apply the effects of common actions. I think complexity is sort of in the eye of the beholder, so this is what I'm thinking in terms of games I'm familiar with:
"About right," comparable to : Basic-Expert D&D/Labyrinth Lord; Tunnels & Trolls; Dragon Warriors
Maybe too complicated, maybe not:
- Runequest (Monsters have a lot of numerical detail, combat can get complex, spells can require a lot of figures)
- Savage Worlds (The book encourages miniatures, creation/advancement involves a lot of "buying")
- Warhammer (I may be misjudging it; I've only played a little. From reading the book it comes off as vaguely fussy.)
Probably too complicated:
- Burning Wheel (Many things to track, very elaborate character creation)
- D&D 4th Edition (Nearly requires miniatures, fights are lengthy)
- MERP/RM (Lots of skills, lots of charts)
Definitely too complicated:
- AD&D/OSRIC as written (Many picky subsystems, baroque elements of combat per RAW)
- d20/D&D 3rd Edition (many derived stats, advancement heavy on "buying," fights VERY lengthy after a few levels)
- GURPS, Hero (simliar issues to d20, if not more so)
Too "Lite" would be, say, Risus or FUDGE.
Miscellaenous things I do want :
- Magic that is based on specific "spells" rather than abstract effects.
- Items and resources are at least somewhat important.
- Characters can gain experience/advance by doing things one does in a dungeon full of treasure and monsters (as opposed to story award, roleplaying award, tagging aspects, etc.)
Miscellaneous things I don't want:
- If the system has a really strong focus on how the character relates to society, that's not so great, since it's drawing focus off of exploration.
- Anything reminiscent of this tagline from the game Donjon : "Wondering what's on the other side of that door? Bash it down – with enough successes, you'll tell the GM what's there." While I think this is a cool idea on its own terms, but it's not what I'm trying to do - I want to have the characters discovering a fairly objective environment.
- If combat is so dangerous that extended ventures into a dungeon full of wandering mosnters would quickly become an exercise in futility.
This is a pretty narrow set of parameters, I admit, but, then I do already know three games that would work; I'd just like to try something new and since as the thread's proven, there are at least 101 possibilities out there, it would be cool to hear from people with experience in some of these games suggest what might work, and why!
Thanks, guys.
Quote from: Cole;401596What I'm looking for: I'd like to run a pretty straightforward dungeon-based game in the sense of, say Castle Greyhawk - exploring the main dungeon over time. I'd like a system that basically maximizes the number of rooms the party could hope to explore in a given session, and minimizes the amount of homework I have to do between games - i.e. NPC/Monster stats, math in general.
I don't want a complex or rules-heavy system. Particularly, I want to avoid any given fight taking a long time, or a calculation to apply the effects of common actions. I think complexity is sort of in the eye of the beholder, so this is what I'm thinking in terms of games I'm familiar with:
You might want to take a look at my Microlite74 (http://www.retroroleplaying.com/content/microlite74) or the almost finished Microlite75 (http://www.retroroleplaying.com/content/microlite75). M74 is an attempt to remake 0e in very lite D20 terms. M75 is what I ran as 0e was transitioning to 1e in the late 70s. Unless you are specifically looking for 0e, M75 is probably more what you are looking for. Both games do dungeon crawls fine and allow you to add in rules you like from just about any edition easily (well, probably not 4e -- at least not easily).
Both are rules lite and very fast to play. Combats in my current M75 campaign -- with 9 players -- last 10 to 20 minutes each. With 4 or 5 players, it'd be 5 to 10 minutes for most combats.
Both are free.
Swords and Wizardry, the clone for OD&D.
Here are my first thoughts.
Not 4e, but d20: 3e D&D or Pathfinder
Fantasy, but not d20: Stormbringer*/Runequest/Basic Roleplaying*, Lejendary Adventure*
TSR-era D&D: AD&D*/OSRIC, OD&D*/Swords & Wizardry
Others: Rolemaster, Palladium Fantasy RPG, Tunnels & Trolls*
Popular alternatives that didn't click with me, but you still might consider: GURPS, Savage Worlds
Another option would be d20/3e with a setting sourcebook that makes it feel different than the default D&D game with a more "generic fantasy" setting:
Midnight
Black Company*
Testament
Eternal Rome
Thieves World*
Hamunaptra
Trojan War
Ancient Kingdoms: Mesopotamia*
* - these would be my picks
Quote from: RandallS;401611You might want to take a look at my Microlite74 (http://www.retroroleplaying.com/content/microlite74) or the almost finished Microlite75 (http://www.retroroleplaying.com/content/microlite75). M74 is an attempt to remake 0e in very lite D20 terms. M75 is what I ran as 0e was transitioning to 1e in the late 70s. Unless you are specifically looking for 0e, M75 is probably more what you are looking for. Both games do dungeon crawls fine and allow you to add in rules you like from just about any edition easily (well, probably not 4e -- at least not easily).
Both are rules lite and very fast to play. Combats in my current M75 campaign -- with 9 players -- last 10 to 20 minutes each. With 4 or 5 players, it'd be 5 to 10 minutes for most combats.
Both are free.
Neither are quite what I'm looking for since they seem more essentially streamlined variants of D&D itself rather than different but comparable games, but I did want to take a moment to say that from a casual read through, M74/M75 both seem elegantly done and I could see using either at some other time.
Quote from: Cylonophile;401546Well, some of the things joe said was that he does not the way 4e seems to be becoming a miniatures tabletop game and the rules seem to be written to push people towards miniatures and maps.
He also doesn't like the way the classes got redone, with every class now self healing and multi classing removed.
Not being into d20 or D2D I don't understand the last bit, I can understand not wanting to play a game that's going like GW and trying to sell overpriced miniatures.
The complaint of "multi classing removed" sounds like that the player is a 3rd Edition D&D veteran. 3E had an idiosyncratic way of mixing sets of abilities - characters still had classes and levels, but the level benefits were modular , so each time you earned a level you could pick "a level of Fighter" or "A level of Rogue," etc. Older versions of D&D don't have the same thing they are much stricter about your character class.
If his complaint is fundamentally "3rd Edition was great and now it's gone and they fucked 4e all up" then you just want Pathfinder: basically the same game as D&D 3e, but you can go into Barnes and Noble and buy it.
If your man just wants less strictly defined character types than 4e, many popular games offer that. Savage worlds might fly since it's more structured than the all-out buy by points model of a GURPS or a HERO system, and, since you mentioned settings it offers some choices of packaged settings you can buy, with a couple of fantasy options. SW does push miniatures and maps somewhat but not as much as even d20 D&D.
I like Noisms' point of "why not just try an outright different game." The worst that can happen is you don't love the game and maybe sell a used rulebook. I am not familiar with the Mongoose version of it, but in its previous versions, Runequest is a great game, as is Elric/Stormbringer, its close relative. The big difference between them is the way magic works. In either game you're still likely to be an unrooted adventurer fighting dudes for gold and glory - either would give you a "Conan" flavor under the conditions of "Conan might well die in a fight."
Pendragon is one of the best games of all time but know that by the book, you are a Knight in King Arthur's England and that's that.
D20...meh...
Cy.
why not try MRQ2,Talislanta/Omni system,Ars Magica,MM&M (a bit dated & quirky but simple) or dare I suggest Sorcerer/Sword&Sorcerer?
Cole.
Talislanta/Omni system,Sovereign Stone,MRQ2 or Stormbringer.
:)
Quote from: skofflox;401656D20...meh...
Cy.
why not try MRQ2,Talislanta/Omni system,Ars Magica,MM&M (a bit dated & quirky but simple) or dare I suggest Sorcerer/Sword&Sorcerer?
Cole.
Talislanta/Omni system,Sovereign Stone,MRQ2 or Stormbringer.
:)
What are Sovereign Stone and Talislanta like? (I have a basic idea of the aesthetic style of Talislanta, but not really how gameplay works.)
Quote from: Cole;401668What are Sovereign Stone and Talislanta like? (I have a basic idea of the aesthetic style of Talislanta, but not really how gameplay works.)
Talislanta 4th (the one i'm most familiar) operates under very simple yet flexible rules. There is no character creation
per se, instead you pick an archetype from a list of +120. The system is similar to d20, but improved (IMO), with various degrees of success and fail. The magic system is a dream: free-form but with a lot of flavour, combining various schools of magic with a list of "arcane habilities" or modes, etc.
In short, is a game you learn to play in mere minutes but is open to endless possibilities, (yeah, I know, I'm a Talislata Bitch).
Cole, note again that Tal is freely downloadable. Also I'll say again that 3e vs 4e is very much a matter of taste, but 3e is closer to D&D in that you have spell lists and characters gain hp per level. The latter may make it more suitable for extended dungeoncrawling.
That said, you really should check out Legends of the Ancient World, or if you can get your hands on it, The Fantasy Trip/Dragons of Underearth. (DoU is the simplified version of TFT; LotAW is the retroclone.) It's got the complexity you want, and beginning characters are more robust than in classic D&D. It does use a map for combat, but it's not fiddly, and if you wish you can probably do away with the map once you as GM understand how the system works.
Quote from: Cole;401648I am not familiar with the Mongoose version of it, but in its previous versions, Runequest is a great game, as is Elric/Stormbringer, its close relative. The big difference between them is the way magic works. In either game you're still likely to be an unrooted adventurer fighting dudes for gold and glory - either would give you a "Conan" flavor under the conditions of "Conan might well die in a fight."
I have yet to try it, but MRQII (the current Mongoose version of RuneQuest) is one of the best games of the BRP family.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;401691Cole, note again that Tal is freely downloadable. Also I'll say again that 3e vs 4e is very much a matter of taste, but 3e is closer to D&D in that you have spell lists and characters gain hp per level. The latter may make it more suitable for extended dungeoncrawling.
That said, you really should check out Legends of the Ancient World, or if you can get your hands on it, The Fantasy Trip/Dragons of Underearth. (DoU is the simplified version of TFT; LotAW is the retroclone.) It's got the complexity you want, and beginning characters are more robust than in classic D&D. It does use a map for combat, but it's not fiddly, and if you wish you can probably do away with the map once you as GM understand how the system works.
Elliott, thanks -I'll check these out - both games I've heard of but never really had an opportunity to look at. This is the good side of the .pdf world, isn't it? I'm DLing the "rules sampler," 4th and 3rd edition rule books for Tal (apparently there's now a 5th.) I'm going to start off with reading the Rules Sampler this afternoon.
In the meantime, do you have a one-or-two sentence explanation on the differences in magic between 2/3/4? I mentioned "discrete spell lists" both because I think it's a huge convenience, and because I also think it's good to have a concrete framework for "these are the kinds of things 'Wizards' are known to do."
Even somebody who has never even been in a playground fight can conceptualize pretty well what a warrior can do - "Punch someone, swing a sword at it, punch someone, shoot arrows at it." I think with lists of spells you can broaden them if you want, where with freeform rules it can be a confusing field of "well, most anything...not everything, but, you have to get to know the guidelines of..."
Quote from: Cole;401648I like Noisms' point of "why not just try an outright different game." The worst that can happen is you don't love the game and maybe sell a used rulebook. I am not familiar with the Mongoose version of it, but in its previous versions, Runequest is a great game, as is Elric/Stormbringer, its close relative. The big difference between them is the way magic works. In either game you're still likely to be an unrooted adventurer fighting dudes for gold and glory - either would give you a "Conan" flavor under the conditions of "Conan might well die in a fight."
Of course, there's always the possibility that the guy actually loves the core principle of D&D, that is, being an adventurer exploring dungeons and wilderness, with a tactical challenge different from the ones 4E proposes through his gestion of the grid, movement, sliding, shifting etc.
In that case, there are still other, different games than D&D mockups that could fit the bill for him, but the criteria become a lot more precise, with a lot of games not suited for this particular type of dungeon-exploration game play. One that *does* IMO fit the bill is Mongoose's RuneQuest II. See Using RuneQuest for actual Dungeoneering (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17351) for more information on this.
Quote from: Cole;401596It's a nice coincidence that this thread showed up - this morning I was just about to start a thread asking a similar question. I thought I'd ask here for suggestions for a Fantasy RPG to use next time around, for the sake of trying out something new.
What I'm looking for: I'd like to run a pretty straightforward dungeon-based game in the sense of, say Castle Greyhawk - exploring the main dungeon over time. I'd like a system that basically maximizes the number of rooms the party could hope to explore in a given session, and minimizes the amount of homework I have to do between games - i.e. NPC/Monster stats, math in general.
I don't want a complex or rules-heavy system. Particularly, I want to avoid any given fight taking a long time, or a calculation to apply the effects of common actions. I think complexity is sort of in the eye of the beholder, so this is what I'm thinking in terms of games I'm familiar with:
"About right," comparable to : Basic-Expert D&D/Labyrinth Lord; Tunnels & Trolls; Dragon Warriors
Maybe too complicated, maybe not:
- Runequest (Monsters have a lot of numerical detail, combat can get complex, spells can require a lot of figures)
- Savage Worlds (The book encourages miniatures, creation/advancement involves a lot of "buying")
- Warhammer (I may be misjudging it; I've only played a little. From reading the book it comes off as vaguely fussy.)
Probably too complicated:
- Burning Wheel (Many things to track, very elaborate character creation)
- D&D 4th Edition (Nearly requires miniatures, fights are lengthy)
- MERP/RM (Lots of skills, lots of charts)
Definitely too complicated:
- AD&D/OSRIC as written (Many picky subsystems, baroque elements of combat per RAW)
- d20/D&D 3rd Edition (many derived stats, advancement heavy on "buying," fights VERY lengthy after a few levels)
- GURPS, Hero (simliar issues to d20, if not more so)
Too "Lite" would be, say, Risus or FUDGE.
Miscellaenous things I do want :
- Magic that is based on specific "spells" rather than abstract effects.
- Items and resources are at least somewhat important.
- Characters can gain experience/advance by doing things one does in a dungeon full of treasure and monsters (as opposed to story award, roleplaying award, tagging aspects, etc.)
Miscellaneous things I don't want:
- If the system has a really strong focus on how the character relates to society, that's not so great, since it's drawing focus off of exploration.
- Anything reminiscent of this tagline from the game Donjon : "Wondering what's on the other side of that door? Bash it down – with enough successes, you'll tell the GM what's there." While I think this is a cool idea on its own terms, but it's not what I'm trying to do - I want to have the characters discovering a fairly objective environment.
- If combat is so dangerous that extended ventures into a dungeon full of wandering mosnters would quickly become an exercise in futility.
This is a pretty narrow set of parameters, I admit, but, then I do already know three games that would work; I'd just like to try something new and since as the thread's proven, there are at least 101 possibilities out there, it would be cool to hear from people with experience in some of these games suggest what might work, and why!
Thanks, guys.
Cole, no problem with your parameters, they're very clear!
Forward to Adventure fulfills all your requirements, and so does Dungeonslayers (http://www.dungeonslayers.com/) (this one is free, check it out!). I'd like to recommend Savage Worlds, but it doesn't fulfill one requirement (you get XP for "good roleplaying").
I
don't recommend RuneQuest nor Warhammer for what you want (they're good games, but not for this), since they both emphasize how your character relates to society. And you can forget about the "too complicated" games if you think Savage Worlds is maybe too complicated for you.
I hope this helped. :)
Quote from: Benoist;401698One that *does* IMO fit the bill is Mongoose's RuneQuest II. See Using RuneQuest for actual Dungeoneering (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=17351) for more information on this.
We must have different opinions about what dungeoneering means, because I don't think MRQ2 is an adequate game for that. For me dungeoneering means frequent combats, and in RuneQuest if you fight often your members tend to fly. :D
Mind you, I'm not saying that I think MRQ2 is bad, I'm currently reading it and it's making a very good impression on me.
Quote from: Claudius;401703We must have different opinions about what dungeoneering means, because I don't think MRQ2 is an adequate game for that. For me dungeoneering means frequent combats, and in RuneQuest if you fight often your members tend to fly. :D
No no you're right. Though it still would be dungeon exploration, the exact nature of the exploration, and its general pace, would change drastically. See the linked thread where this is discussed in more detail! :)
Quote from: Claudius;401701Cole, no problem with your parameters, they're very clear!
Forward to Adventure fulfills all your requirements, and so does Dungeonslayers (http://www.dungeonslayers.com/) (this one is free, check it out!). I'd like to recommend Savage Worlds, but it doesn't fulfill one requirement (you get XP for "good roleplaying").
I don't recommend RuneQuest nor Warhammer for what you want (they're good games, but not for this), since they both emphasize how your character relates to society. And you can forget about the "too complicated" games if you think Savage Worlds is maybe too complicated for you.
I hope this helped. :)
Claudius - thanks! I downloaded Dungeon Slayers and I'll be checking it out. I have meant for a while to take a look at FTA, so maybe I will pick up a copy in the next week or two.
I listed games with which I have some familiarity - most I have experience playing or running, whereas I know Burning Wheel and Warhammer more by owning and reading the books.
Here's some speculation on "remixed" megadungeoning:
SW isn't complicated in most senses, it just has a couple strikes against it in particular areas. Resolution is simple, for example, but characters
are built by purchasing edges and disadvantages, just in a guided way, and they advance in the same guided-purchase way. Magic is a 'light' power purchasing model. Combat prefers miniatures. Overall I like the game, and these are minor complications, but for what I'm wanting to run, they don't offer any benefit in exchange, and they're a lot of the system. Does that make sense?
As far as XP, what I have is explorers' edition, but XP is presented as just 1, 2, or 3 points based on degree of success, so I don't think it would need to be tied to roleplaying/story. For a dungeon exploration game, I could see the award working like: 1 point - any PCs died, total bust for treasure or tactical goals, etc; 2 points - successful expedition; 3 points - rich treasure haul, discovered an important secret, party returns from the dungeon without a scratch on them, etc. Not so granular, but, not bad. Other XP systems that I like here would be for example: Basic D&D Gold --> Experience, or Runequest - Skill used --> Check to improve.
Runequest isn't really what I was thinking of in terms of the heavy social/political factor in the game. Once the characters are rolled up, they could pretty much drop out of society unless they wanted to enjoy the magical benefits of cult standing or journeyman sorcerer status; and it's not hard to address that all as down time between games. It's not like saying "Houses of the Blooded would be a good game to use for this idea,"by contrast.
The dismemberment thing is more a factor; it's fine or even an advantage if combat is dangerous and discourages fighting every troll "'cause he's there!" but at the same time I don't want the concept of ever fighting a monster to be tantamount to suicide. I'm more dissuaded by the idea of worrying about strike ranks and attribute affecting spells, etc.
Cole
Quote from: Claudius;401701Forward to Adventure fulfills all your requirements...
P.S. - I've asked Pundit this before, but I wouldn't mind another perspective : Outside of things like GMing and campaigning advice, what advantages does FTA offer to a person who already has Tunnels & Trolls?
Quote from: Cole;401668What are Sovereign Stone and Talislanta like? (I have a basic idea of the aesthetic style of Talislanta, but not really how gameplay works.)
Lizaur gives some good points regarding Talislanta.It is available free online.
Even the older eds. are neat.The system derived from Bard Games 'Atlantis' RPG...which would also work well.One table sums up the grades of success which are rolled with a d20 and mod. by att./skill.
The Omni system is a newer version.Some versions have spell lists some a more general approach feel...
Sovereign Stone system is somewhat like savage worlds,oddly enough, in that it utilizes various types of d. (4,6,8,10 etc.)to designate capability.In SS this is added to a skill d. type and rolled vs. target # or other total.You can get bonus d. by exerting yourself (risking stun ) and by other mods.
The magic system in SS is spell based (catagories inc.air,fire,water,earth and void ?)with success coming from rolling the d. types to achieve a total that triggers the effect.The various races have bonuses in corresponding types of spells.The system as a whole is simple enough.
I have seen the core SS book used for $4.
There is also a d.20 version of SS, as there is for Talis..
I do not care for all the setting materials (which are based on some works of fiction) but that can be ignored.
Hope this helps!
(T&T is still one of the best simple systems for dungeon crawl IMO)
:)
Quote from: Cole;401695Elliott, thanks -I'll check these out - both games I've heard of but never really had an opportunity to look at.
You're welcome. I should mention that TFT as written only gives experience points for killing things. If houseruling this is a problem (although I don't see why it would be), then you may want to skip it.
QuoteIn the meantime, do you have a one-or-two sentence explanation on the differences in magic between 2/3/4? I mentioned "discrete spell lists" both because I think it's a huge convenience, and because I also think it's good to have a concrete framework for "these are the kinds of things 'Wizards' are known to do."
Tal 2 has IIRC rather broad and fairly flavorless spell lists, with most/many types of spells doing similar things, just renamed. E.g. flame bolt vs. water bolt. Tal 3 introduces a much more flavorful differentiation in the spell lists of different schools of magic. This is done under cover of an "in-world" discovery of ancient magical secrets, but I really don't see any need to bother with that unless for some reason you've already started a Tal 2 campaign and decide later to switch to Tal 3.
Tal 4 ditches all that and instead has a system of Modes and Orders that you'll find in the Sampler. The idea here is that users of magic know so many myriad spells that enumerating them in game terms would be impossible. Therefore the game-mechanical method of handling them is to have players make the spells up on the fly, using certain constraints. The Orders are basically magic types (air magic, for example) while the Modes are magical effects (attack, defense, movement, etc.). So a player basically says "I'll attack him with a gust of wind" and use the Air/Attack ratings. But the same player cannot use the same ratings to, say, power a sailboat, because that's not an attack.
I find it too "meta", and on top of that it doesn't match well with the idea of spell-users trying to hunt down or research specific spells, which is very Talislantan (and very Vancian, which is supposed to be an influence). So I like 3e's approach best. Somewhere along the line 4e or 5e might have found a way to deal with this issue, but I haven't had a chance to look at the later magic books to see what they do.
Quote from: skofflox;401738Sovereign Stone system is somewhat like savage worlds,oddly enough, in that it utilizes various types of d. (4,6,8,10 etc.)to designate capability. (...)
I have seen the core SS book used for $4.
If you decide to hunt down
Sovereign Stone then go for the Revised Edition hardcover. Don't buy the First Edition softcover!
Here's the reason why. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=371153)
Other than that I second:
Talislanta 4
Barbarians of Lemuria
Dragon Warriors
(In February I collected a few links of praise for DW (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=360217) on this very forum.)
hmmm...how about Dragonquest 3ed.?
Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;401831If you decide to hunt down Sovereign Stone then go for the Revised Edition hardcover. Don't buy the First Edition softcover!
Here's the reason why. (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=371153)
Other than that I second:
Talislanta 4
Barbarians of Lemuria
Dragon Warriors
(In February I collected a few links of praise for DW (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?p=360217) on this very forum.)
Thanks for the links and advice regarding Sov.Stn...I concur...I was just giving a very general overview of the base mechanic. :)
Dragonquest would probably be a good option except that it's not readily available. Or is it? Now that you mention it, I think there may be a restatement/clone of it somewhere. Possibly here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/
The other problem is that 3e is probably not the preferred edition. Maybe there's a page out that that fixes the errata introduced in 3e editing, as well as the sanitizing imposed by late-80's TSR. There are a pretty good collection of fan resources available.
Another possibly minor issue is that there's a divergence of opinion on whether some aspects of the game are broken and need houserules. As I've never played a campaign I can't really say, but I've seen one critic who felt that beginning spellcasters were too weak because they had low success chances and high chances of spell backlash. What I think this ignores is (a) the rules have a ritual system that allows you to reduce the risk by spending more time, and (b) there are far fewer limitations in being a spellcaster in DQ than in D&D. So this is partly a case of old-school balance--you wants to be a wizard, you takes your chances, and the overall effect is to winnow the population of wannabees.
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;401883Dragonquest would probably be a good option except that it's not readily available. Or is it? Now that you mention it, I think there may be a restatement/clone of it somewhere. Possibly here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/
The other problem is that 3e is probably not the preferred edition. Maybe there's a page out that that fixes the errata introduced in 3e editing, as well as the sanitizing imposed by late-80's TSR. There are a pretty good collection of fan resources available.
Another possibly minor issue is that there's a divergence of opinion on whether some aspects of the game are broken and need houserules. As I've never played a campaign I can't really say, but I've seen one critic who felt that beginning spellcasters were too weak because they had low success chances and high chances of spell backlash. What I think this ignores is (a) the rules have a ritual system that allows you to reduce the risk by spending more time, and (b) there are far fewer limitations in being a spellcaster in DQ than in D&D. So this is partly a case of old-school balance--you wants to be a wizard, you takes your chances, and the overall effect is to winnow the population of wannabees.
Thanks for the link! I just sold my 3ed DQ to the used game store and see that they put it up for $20.00. I have seen it new for as low as $5.00! (in Hawaii a few years back and yes I did purchase) Readily available at Noble Knight for less than $20.00.
Good points regarding spellcasters and yes there are ways to raise the base % as you mention. Here is another simple house rule I introduced...allowing a characters score in Astrology to mod the base % (riffed this concept from Fantasy Wargaming by Galloway!).Simple and logical.Timing the use of spells to coincide with your aspect is another way to raise that %!
I have played/owned all eds. and 3rd. is my fave. Ditching the Demon summoning stuff and giving more item creation (or was it Rune use?)details and some expansion on herb use was a great trade off IMO. That book has so many neat ideas, may end up getting it again (would love it in a PDF).
Another simple system (I have studied but never played) is Swordbearer. Simple % mechanic with a neat magic system. Sold my 2ed. copy recently but will be getting on PDF soon.
:)
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;401883Dragonquest would probably be a good option except that it's not readily available. Or is it? Now that you mention it, I think there may be a restatement/clone of it somewhere. Possibly here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/
The other problem is that 3e is probably not the preferred edition. Maybe there's a page out that that fixes the errata introduced in 3e editing, as well as the sanitizing imposed by late-80's TSR. There are a pretty good collection of fan resources available.
Another possibly minor issue is that there's a divergence of opinion on whether some aspects of the game are broken and need houserules. As I've never played a campaign I can't really say, but I've seen one critic who felt that beginning spellcasters were too weak because they had low success chances and high chances of spell backlash. What I think this ignores is (a) the rules have a ritual system that allows you to reduce the risk by spending more time, and (b) there are far fewer limitations in being a spellcaster in DQ than in D&D. So this is partly a case of old-school balance--you wants to be a wizard, you takes your chances, and the overall effect is to winnow the population of wannabees.
Also the DPA (http://www.dragonquest.org/dqlinks.html) and especially The Frontiers of Alusia (http://portalkeepersofgrayrock.com/Alusia/Alusiamap.htm) can be helpful. I prefer 2e DQ, and I own the 1e box set and the 2e softcover. Snafaru's page (http://www.zimlab.com/dq/) has a link to the pdf of the open source rules, and is a great site in general :)
Quote from: Sigmund;401952Also the DPA (http://www.dragonquest.org/dqlinks.html) and especially The Frontiers of Alusia (http://portalkeepersofgrayrock.com/Alusia/Alusiamap.htm) can be helpful. I prefer 2e DQ, and I own the 1e box set and the 2e softcover. Snafaru's page (http://www.zimlab.com/dq/) has a link to the pdf of the open source rules, and is a great site in general :)
:cool:
:worship:
Quote from: Elliot Wilen;401883Dragonquest would probably be a good option except that it's not readily available. Or is it? Now that you mention it, I think there may be a restatement/clone of it somewhere. Possibly here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dq-rules/
The other problem is that 3e is probably not the preferred edition. Maybe there's a page out that that fixes the errata introduced in 3e editing, as well as the sanitizing imposed by late-80's TSR. There are a pretty good collection of fan resources available.
I own Dragonquest 2e - I hadn't given it thought - its heavy focus on "real" Key of Solomon demons always gave it an appeal, but I never did get my head around the system. It may be just presentation - I doubt it's any more intricate than RQ, but the Combat chapter with it's section 2.1.2's and so on made me wary. To those who love DQ : Why do you love DQ?
Quote from: Zachary The First;401536Nah. I had 101 spots. I'm not going to have everything on there.
Why not mention the "original" (the Fantasy toolkits) instead of the condensed and inferior version (fantasy companion) of it?
Quote from: Cylonophile;401585What's the system like?
I present to you the reviews of the main rulebook (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=7451) and the main sourcebook (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=13243).
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;402267I present to you the reviews of the main rulebook (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=7451) and the main sourcebook (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=13243).
RPGPundit
Thank you.
Quote from: Cylonophile;402363Thank you.
No problem.
RPGPundit