What do you say we lighten things up around here and talk about alignment languages?
Does anybody actually use them? How have you implemented them in your games?
I'm aware they're a bit daft, but I'm intrigued to know if anybody has taken them seriously and tried to use them with a straight face.
I can't quite wrap my head around the concept, I'm afraid.
Back when we used them at all it was never as a full language, more like codewords and gestures that identified your alignment 'fraternity' and slipped into conversation in another language.
Kind of like thieves cant actually.
one of the really odd things, if you accept the existance of Alignment languages at all is that a class ability of the Assassin was to learn other alignment languages.
When detect evil is a really really common 1st level spell I always found the fact that a 10th level assassin migh have fluency in 3 or 4 alignment laguages for disguise but was still obviously evil to any detection spell pretty funny.
Quote from: vytzka;563319I can't quite wrap my head around the concept, I'm afraid.
It is probably derived from the "black speech" in Tolkien, but I never saw it as a very useful concept.
Quote from: Gary GygaxAlignment language is a handy game tool which is not unjustifiable in game terms. Thieves did employ a special cant. Secret organizations and societies did and do have certain recognition signs, signals and recognition phrases - possibly special languages (of limited extent) as well. Consider also the medieval Catholic Church which used Latin as a common recognition and communication base to cut across national boundaries. In AD&D, alignment languages are the special set of signs, signals, gestures and words which intelligent creatures use to inform other intelligent creatures of the same alignment of their fellowship and common ethos. Alignment languages are NEVER flaunted in public. They are not used as salutations or interrogatives if the speaker is uncertain of the alignment of those addressed. Furthermore, alignment languages are of limited vocabulary and deal with the ethos of the alignment in general, so lengthy discussion of varying subjects cannot be conducted in such tongues.
Each alignment language is constructed to allow recognition of like-aligned creatures and to discuss the precepts of the alignment in detail. Otherwise, the tongue will permit only the most rudimentary communication with a vocabulary of limited to a few score words. The speaker could inquire of the listener's state of health, ask about hunger, thirst, or degree of tiredness. A few other basic conditions and opinions could be expressed, but no more. The specialty tongues of Druidic and the Thieves' Cant are designed to handle conversations pertaining to things druidical on the one hand and thievery, robbery and the disposal of stolen goods on the other. Druids could discuss at length and in detail the state of the crops, weather, animal husbandry and foresting; but warfare, politics, adventuring, and like matter would be impossible to detail with the language.
Any character foolish enough to announce his or her alignment by publicly crying out in that alignment tongue will incur considerable social sanctions. At best he or she will be thought unmannerly, rude, boorish, and stupid. Those of the same alignment will be inclined to totally ignore the character, not wishing to embarrass themselves by admitting any familiarity with the offender. Those of other alignment will likewise regard the speaker with distaste when overhearing such an outburst. At worst, the character will marked by those hostile to the alignment in which he or she spoke.
Alignment language is used to establish credentials only after initial communications have been established by other means. Only in the most desperate of situations would any creature utter something in the alignment tongue otherwise. It must be also noted that alignment does NOT necessarily empower a creature to actually speak or understand the alignment language which is general in the ethos. Thus, blink dogs are intelligent, lawful good creatures ho have a language of their own. A lawful good human, dwarf or brownie will be absolutely at a loss to communicate with blink dogs, however, except in the most limited of ways (non-aggression, non-fear, etc.) without knowledge of the creatures language or some magical means. This is because blink dogs do not intellectually embrace the ethos of lawful good but are of that alignment instinctually; therefore, they do not speak the tongue used by lawful good. This is not true of gold dragons, let us say, or red dragons with respect to their alignment, who do speak their respective alignment languages.
I always thought that was fairly cut and dried myself.
It's not a conversational language, it's a series of body cues, gestures, obscure phrases, etc. to establish who or what ones ethos are. It's like the masonic handshake or what-have-you.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;563325Back when we used them at all it was never as a full language, more like codewords and gestures that identified your alignment 'fraternity' and slipped into conversation in another language.
Kind of like thieves cant actually.
This.
It's kind of like how different political groups use certain code words to mean different things. In D&D, if you know what to listen for, you can figure out whether the person skews toward order vs. chaos, and good vs. evil.
Trying to use it specifically as an actual language really causes major issues.
thought the whole concept ridiculous and never used them.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;563359I always thought that was fairly cut and dried myself.
It's not a conversational language, it's a series of body cues, gestures, obscure phrases, etc. to establish who or what ones ethos are. It's like the masonic handshake or what-have-you.
The explanations are utterly non-sensical without the assumption that everyone of a given alignment belongs to a special club for those of that alignment. Really?
Really?
Needless to say, I've never had any use for alignment languages.
I never liked the concept of an alignment language as something regular people would ever use.
But, in the context of Dnd planar cosmology, there is an argument that alignment languages are not completely crazy.
The Nine Hells having a Lawful Evil devil language, or the Modrons speaking Binary, or Slaad having a language of pure chaos (is that possible?) kind of makes sense. Those languages might trickle down to the material plane.
What I don't like is the concept of an assasin learning 'lawful good' as a language to fool Paladins!
Quote from: Bill;563383I never liked the concept of an alignment language as something regular people would ever use.
But, in the context of Dnd planar cosmology, there is an argument that alignment languages are not completely crazy.
The Nine Hells having a Lawful Evil devil language, or the Modrons speaking Binary, or Slaad having a language of pure chaos (is that possible?) kind of makes sense. Those languages might trickle down to the material plane.
What I don't like is the concept of an assasin learning 'lawful good' as a language to fool Paladins!
I thini this is key. A lot of stuff like this in D&D makes more sense if your setting is closer to the cosmological assumptions of the game. I found alignment languages (and even racial languages frankly) became a problem when I tried to make settings that broke away from many D&D conventions.
For example I made a game that just had heaven, hell and earth. The races were also culturally and linguistically fragmented. So you might have one area where elves would speak the same language as ogres or halflings and humans tended to share a cluster of languages. On top of that, the much more limited cosmologyy introduced all kinds of issues (especially in the 3E system, which is what I was using at the time).
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;563388I thini this is key. A lot of stuff like this in D&D makes more sense if your setting is closer to the cosmological assumptions of the game. I found alignment languages (and even racial languages frankly) became a problem when I tried to make settings that broke away from many D&D conventions.
For example I made a game that just had heaven, hell and earth. The races were also culturally and linguistically fragmented. So you might have one area where elves would speak the same language as ogres or halflings and humans tended to share a cluster of languages. On top of that, the much more limited cosmologyy introduced all kinds of issues (especially in the 3E system, which is what I was using at the time).
Racial languages make more sense than alignment languages do. Historically speaking, different tribes had different languages, so the racial languages reflect that. Of course, if you have an Elf raise among Humans, that Elf isn't going to know Elvish at all.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;563392Racial languages make more sense than alignment languages do. Historically speaking, different tribes had different languages, so the racial languages reflect that. Of course, if you have an Elf raise among Humans, that Elf isn't going to know Elvish at all.
What makes a language a 'Racial' language? That would refer to its origion, I imagine, but not the state of the language in the present.
A race could lose their language and adopt another.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;563392Racial languages make more sense than alignment languages do. Historically speaking, different tribes had different languages, so the racial languages reflect that. Of course, if you have an Elf raise among Humans, that Elf isn't going to know Elvish at all.
Sure they make a certain kind of sense, but as groups interact and change over time you expect to see less uniformity on those lines. I would expect there to be multiple elven tongues, and languages that cross racial boundaries.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;563404Sure they make a certain kind of sense, but as groups interact and change over time you expect to see less uniformity on those lines. I would expect there to be multiple elven tongues, and languages that cross racial boundaries.
Also, as games go on, most PCs end up learning multiple languages anyway, I can see 'Elvish' becoming the 'French' of the D&D nobility: everyone who wants to be seen as being cultured or elite speaks in Elvish.
Quote from: beeber;563373thought the whole concept ridiculous and never used them.
Right up there with level titles in terms of being totally useless.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;563359I always thought that was fairly cut and dried myself.
It's not a conversational language, it's a series of body cues, gestures, obscure phrases, etc. to establish who or what ones ethos are. It's like the masonic handshake or what-have-you.
Or any of several dozen jargons. You can extend a few phrases and ideas to general conversation, but talking about car repair or gardening using computer jargon would be exceptionally difficult, and relies on the other person having the same understanding of a particular analogy. And
vice versa, of course; planting cycles or weeding tools make computer repair difficult, at best.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;563388For example I made a game that just had heaven, hell and earth. The races were also culturally and linguistically fragmented. So you might have one area where elves would speak the same language as ogres or halflings and humans tended to share a cluster of languages. On top of that, the much more limited cosmologyy introduced all kinds of issues (especially in the 3E system, which is what I was using at the time).
This is more of a useable concept, in my opinion. For example, Dwarves living in France would possibly know 'Dwarven', but they would speak French on a daily basis, and would probably end up with some kind of pidgin or creole when dealing with other Dwarves in different parts of France. It would reasonably depend more on the dominant society or culture of an area.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;563388For example I made a game that just had heaven, hell and earth. The races were also culturally and linguistically fragmented. So you might have one area where elves would speak the same language as ogres or halflings and humans tended to share a cluster of languages. On top of that, the much more limited cosmologyy introduced all kinds of issues (especially in the 3E system, which is what I was using at the time).
This is more of a useable concept, in my opinion. For example, Dwarves living in France would possibly know 'Dwarven', but they would speak French on a daily basis, and would probably end up with some kind of pidgin or creole when dealing with other Dwarves in different parts of France.
Quote from: Elfdart;563412Right up there with level titles in terms of being totally useless.
My favorite level title was for a Samarai.
One of the level titles was 'Ninja'
Grand Master of Flowers was a great one too.
I always thought it was something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXSLcYQHqFQ&feature=related
Never had a problem with them. After Call of Cthulhu or In Nomine or any other similar game, it was a very clear concept for me. It's like speaking any occult knowledge openly, but would be instantly recognizable to those in the know. Several intelligent but racially different creatures of similar alignment mutually understanding their alignment's ethos and symbols isn't far fetched to me. Sorta like humans of different cultures might have similar understandings of "the Light" or "the Sun" or "the Great Fire" or "the Bringer of Dawn", they all realize they roughly follow a similar belief system.
And why would thieves know any? Because sneaking into organizations and collecting information is sorta what they do. If you're wandering around various cultists to steal artifacts, you better know a few right words or you'll be dead. Again, I don't see what's so hard about this, especially in the light of CoC and other RPGs. If you don't like alignment as a tool to structure your setting, fine, but I found it a useful tool.
Quote from: Opaopajr;563480Never had a problem with them. After Call of Cthulhu or In Nomine or any other similar game, it was a very clear concept for me. It's like speaking any occult knowledge openly, but would be instantly recognizable to those in the know. Several intelligent but racially different creatures of similar alignment mutually understanding their alignment's ethos and symbols isn't far fetched to me. Sorta like humans of different cultures might have similar understandings of "the Light" or "the Sun" or "the Great Fire" or "the Bringer of Dawn", they all realize they roughly follow a similar belief system.
And why would thieves know any? Because sneaking into organizations and collecting information is sorta what they do. If you're wandering around various cultists to steal artifacts, you better know a few right words or you'll be dead. Again, I don't see what's so hard about this, especially in the light of CoC and other RPGs. If you don't like alignment as a tool to structure your setting, fine, but I found it a useful tool.
Eh?
So a chaotic good barbarian from the Stepps can communicate with a Chaotic good elf from France because of some quixotic sign language ? which can be learnt but you don't need to learn it if you are of the same belief system?
By all means have a cult language that followers of Sithag the Cruel know or just except that the whole idea is daft and roll with it but speaking as a lapsed anthropologist who specialised in ritual processes don't try to justify it with anything approaching a real world analogy :)
Quote from: Opaopajr;563480And why would thieves know any? Because sneaking into organizations and collecting information is sorta what they do. If you're wandering around various cultists to steal artifacts, you better know a few right words or you'll be dead. Again, I don't see what's so hard about this, especially in the light of CoC and other RPGs. If you don't like alignment as a tool to structure your setting, fine, but I found it a useful tool.
Like a complex set of shibboleths. Very nice.
What can exist are things like "religious language", and I'm not talking about things like Sanskrit or Latin, but rather, that religious affiliations tend to use certain jargon and speak in certain ways that allow them to recognize their own, and that outsiders cannot easily grasp (to the extent that it can constitute a test of whether a person is what they claim to be, even).
Two evangelical christians will be able to use certain keywords or catchphrases with each other, for example.
And its not just christians by any means; western buddhists are stupidly terrible about this; they'll use words like "equanimity" or "skillful means" or talk about having a "sit"; fashionable buddhists have created a whole language of jargon to show off how hiply buddhist they are.
RPGPundit
Quote from: jibbajibba;563498Eh?
So a chaotic good barbarian from the Stepps can communicate with a Chaotic good elf from France because of some quixotic sign language ? which can be learnt but you don't need to learn it if you are of the same belief system?
By all means have a cult language that followers of Sithag the Cruel know or just except that the whole idea is daft and roll with it but speaking as a lapsed anthropologist who specialised in ritual processes don't try to justify it with anything approaching a real world analogy :)
I agree with this. Don't forget that D&D assumes the existence of something called a "common tongue", which has never existed in the real world except arguably English today. (There have always been lots of lingua francas, but usually very localised and never extending over a great geographical distance.)
So while it would be completely mad to believe that a Chaotic Good human from Kazakhstan could communicate in "Chaotic Good" with a Chaotic Good elf from France if we go by real world logic, by D&D logic where those two people have another language in common, the "common tongue", it makes more sense.
I use to use them way back when 1st edition came out but after awhile we soon decided we couldn't figure out what the hell they where all about, so we dropped the use of them, now I do use the Common Tongue and a Thieves' guild sign language when running OSRIC 1E stuff, the thing is they have to put what guild they are apart of as well, so there are many different Thief Guild Sign Languages as well.
I played 1st and 2nd Ed DnD wayback when they were new..
I have to say I never thought much of the whole alignment language thing and didn't use them ever.
Especially as there's various other languages like "Thieves cant" abyysal, undercommon, etc etc that cover races and cultures with similar views anyway.
In a setting which respects the core D&D planar universe, the souls of sentient beings could derive from / be powered from / originate from the energies of the relevant alignment plane. This energy contains within it certain information (memes/genes), such as: behaviour patterns, sociability, risk taking, etc. Included in this information is "alignment language", which could be anything from a few gestures to a full blown communication system (whatever works for the setting).
All creatures are built up from: nurture, life experience, and nature. Nurture comes from one's parents (amniotic tank, or whatever), life experience comes from growing up, and nature comes from the primal energies of existence. If neutral good creatures all have hardwired-in behaviour templates, no reason why they don't have hardwired-in linguistic templates as well.
In an non-alignment-planar setting, alignment languages are about as improbable as "common" or "racial languages". Linguas franca don't usually stick around that long and certainly not at the communication distances of most settings.
I never even thought alignments were a good idea, never mind the even more nonsensical alignment languages.
Maybe "alignment language" is more how like, when you meet someone new and after sussing out how they're dressed, how they talk, their attitudes, you tell yourself "this guy's probably a tea-party republican".
Or maybe its like gaydar.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;564720Maybe "alignment language" is more how like, when you meet someone new and after sussing out how they're dressed, how they talk, their attitudes, you tell yourself "this guy's probably a tea-party republican".
Or maybe its like gaydar.
RPGPundit
Now I want to ask someone how is their Feydar.
Quote from: RPGPundit;564720Maybe "alignment language" is more how like, when you meet someone new and after sussing out how they're dressed, how they talk, their attitudes, you tell yourself "this guy's probably a tea-party republican".
Or maybe its like gaydar.
RPGPundit
I think that makes quite a bit of sense. Each political affiliation has their 'code words', like "job creators" or maybe "deficit reduction". As you say, listen for a few minutes and you can usually tell which side of the aisle someone is most likely to sit.
Quote from: StormBringer;564729I think that makes quite a bit of sense. Each political affiliation has their 'code words', like "job creators" or maybe "deficit reduction". As you say, listen for a few minutes and you can usually tell which side of the aisle someone is most likely to sit.
That's my thinking as well. Certain code words identify political affiliation, and I'm sure that certain code words identify other portions of an NPCs/PCs outlook. That's what I get as far as alignment languages go.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;564740That's my thinking as well. Certain code words identify political affiliation, and I'm sure that certain code words identify other portions of an NPCs/PCs outlook. That's what I get as far as alignment languages go.
It still sort of implies that people in D&D-land actually know what "lawful good" or "neutral evil" are, doesn't it? They are actually in-game phenomena - not just ways of categorising beliefs on the meta-game level.
Quote from: noisms;564935It still sort of implies that people in D&D-land actually know what "lawful good" or "neutral evil" are, doesn't it? They are actually in-game phenomena - not just ways of categorising beliefs on the meta-game level.
worse it also assumes that they communicate with other people of the same ideology
Cult tongues fine; political languages that trickle along with certain underground ideologies fine; secret trade craft tongues fine; alignment languages ...daft.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;564740That's my thinking as well. Certain code words identify political affiliation, and I'm sure that certain code words identify other portions of an NPCs/PCs outlook. That's what I get as far as alignment languages go.
I don't think it was supposed to be any more complicated than that, anyway. The section on alignment languages even states you don't carry on a conversation in "chaotic good"; it's more of a poor man's
detect alignment that doesn't always work partly due to assassins being able to learn different alignment languages.
I always took alignment languages to be a representation of slang and body language.
IRL I have a friend is who is very like minded to me. I usually tell the story where we were on opposite side of the room at a party, and without words I let him know I was going to fight this one particular a-hole. No words, and barely even even gestures but he knew what I needed.
Generally, I let players use alignment language to speak out loud to each other in slang and innuendo, or to convey simple ideas silently (like "Imma about to bust this punk's face.")
Quote from: Pariah74;565047I always took alignment languages to be a representation of slang and body language.
IRL I have a friend is who is very like minded to me. I usually tell the story where we were on opposite side of the room at a party, and without words I let him know I was going to fight this one particular a-hole. No words, and barely even even gestures but he knew what I needed.
Generally, I let players use alignment language to speak out loud to each other in slang and innuendo, or to convey simple ideas silently (like "Imma about to bust this punk's face.")
Cool story bro.
Quote from: Pariah74;565047I always took alignment languages to be a representation of slang and body language.
IRL I have a friend is who is very like minded to me. I usually tell the story where we were on opposite side of the room at a party, and without words I let him know I was going to fight this one particular a-hole. No words, and barely even even gestures but he knew what I needed.
Generally, I let players use alignment language to speak out loud to each other in slang and innuendo, or to convey simple ideas silently (like "Imma about to bust this punk's face.")
The First Rule about Alignment Languages is that you Dont Talk about Alignment Languages.
Quote from: noisms;565195Cool story bro.
People still say that? Okay. You're welcome.
Quote from: noisms;564935It still sort of implies that people in D&D-land actually know what "lawful good" or "neutral evil" are, doesn't it? They are actually in-game phenomena - not just ways of categorising beliefs on the meta-game level.
Inhabitants don't sit around saying "I'm Lawful Good," because that's a meta-game thing. However, they let slip certain phrases, like "legality", "rightful rule", and "code of laws" in their speech that reflect lawful intent. And words like "do the right thing" or "do good" reflect the goodness behind their intent.
So while the inhabitants don't understand alignments as we know them, they do understand those code words. People who have a similar outlook will recognize them more easily than those who don't, and people who try to espouse those words without deeds to back them up sound fake.
I consider alignment languages one of the all-time silliest concepts ever introduced to gaming. Just absurd.
You don't think absolutely absurd is a bit close minded, since several people gave reasonable real world analogies for it?
If you don't like it as a game device, that's one thing, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're saying.
Could you explain what you mean by absurd?
Quote from: Pariah74;565287You don't think absolutely absurd is a bit close minded, since several people gave reasonable real world analogies for it?
If you don't like it as a game device, that's one thing, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're saying.
Could you explain what you mean by absurd?
There is a difference between code words and phrases or framing references and an actual language. And that switching alignments would somehow magically transfer that knowledge to the person. This was such a left-field idea I just could not fathom how anyone thought it should be included in the game. What purpose did it serve? It was possibly the first rule we ignored. It added nothing.
There actually is little difference between code words, references and body language and an actual language. But then, the game never says it's an actual language. Language is a mode for conveying thoughts and ideas. If your paradigm shifts, so would your mode of referencing that. Somebody who is in deep with a particular culture could convey ideas simply by referencing common things.
Your grandmother would likely be utterly confused by the sentence, "He kept rolling that d20 but his weapon was nerfed. But the encounter was just a big gazebo situation or we would have had a TPK," but everyone on this board got the gist of what I said.
I think sometimes people get caught up on it being a "language" and read the word "hand signals" and think of something formal and structured like military hand signals. I don't think that's what it is at all. It's more like knowing what somebody is thinking, because you think in the same way they do.
I don't really think it's absurd at all. If you don't like it, don't use it, but calling it absurdity is pretty close minded IMO.
As far as what it added? That's easy. My players used it repeatedly to convey thoughts, actions, and plans during a fight without the enemy being wise. I'm sure in your games it was fine to shout, "Hey! Maneuver him under the chandelier and I'll make it fall on him!" and the enemy just didn't hear it, but in my games we used alignment language for it.
End result is the same, and they both work, and I find your aesthetic unbelievable and wouldn't want it my games. The difference is, I don't think you're absurd for doing it that way. It's how you play, it's just different.
I find Languagegeek's description of Cosmological Memes or a "Planar Universal Conscious" if you will to be very interesting.
Of course you actually have to accept the Cosmology of D&D and the idea of the influences of the various Outer and Inner Planes on the Prime Material. Apparently that's beyond some people because it's not how things really work in life. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Tetsubo;565334There is a difference between code words and phrases or framing references and an actual language. And that switching alignments would somehow magically transfer that knowledge to the person. This was such a left-field idea I just could not fathom how anyone thought it should be included in the game. What purpose did it serve? It was possibly the first rule we ignored. It added nothing.
It's not an actual language, as per the description.
Switching alignments represents switching alignment 'language' as much as you feel it should in your setting. Losing your old Lawful Good alignment could mean no longer being up to date on Lawful Good canon, code words, and symbols (religions and philosophies do change over time). While a switch to Neutral Good means you are taking time to learn new shibboleths (thanks Stormbringer for using the appropriate term), so that whole level of experience it takes to start gaining actual experience in your new alignment is seen as your learning period (does anyone else remember those rules from the alignment section?).
It serves the purpose to have a hard coded GM leash on PC alignment behavior. It's just like NWPs are there to help define what your character can do *really well* -- you may be dextrous, but why should that make you a concert pianist if you've never seen a piano before, along with being a world class acrobat, legerdemain trickster, and basket weaver san pareil. Some people like tools to rein in PC potentiality to retain believability. When someone is LG they want their behavior to stay LG; so what tools do you have to ensure breaches have ramifications?
Some people like hard tools (rule mechanics), some people like soft tools (setting restraints), and some people like none and work completely on trust. And some people like all of those tools and find themselves using all three at different levels at various times. And as long as the system is flexible enough for people to tailor to their table, none of this is a real problem.
I like the tools of alignment and alignment languages myself and don't find them problematic. But then I also don't have issues worrying about class balance either. Thankfully I'm accommodated by the flexibility of older games and don't have a real worry about this. Therefore happy fun time for all.
Quote from: Tetsubo;565334There is a difference between code words and phrases or framing references and an actual language. And that switching alignments would somehow magically transfer that knowledge to the person. This was such a left-field idea I just could not fathom how anyone thought it should be included in the game. What purpose did it serve? It was possibly the first rule we ignored. It added nothing.
I never use alignment languages for anything other than planar beings like devils. And I don't really call them alignment langages.
It makes a bit more sense if you define 'lawful Evil' as the ancient language of Devilkind that has seeped into the material plane over millenia.
Quote from: Bill;565417I never use alignment languages for anything other than planar beings like devils. And I don't really call them alignment langages.
It makes a bit more sense if you define 'lawful Evil' as the ancient language of Devilkind that has seeped into the material plane over millenia.
Hmmn. That's an interesting take. I never thought of that. It also immediately gives me story ideas, that's how I know it's an interesting idea.
Quote from: Opaopajr;565378It's not an actual language, as per the description.
Switching alignments represents switching alignment 'language' as much as you feel it should in your setting. Losing your old Lawful Good alignment could mean no longer being up to date on Lawful Good canon, code words, and symbols (religions and philosophies do change over time). While a switch to Neutral Good means you are taking time to learn new shibboleths (thanks Stormbringer for using the appropriate term), so that whole level of experience it takes to start gaining actual experience in your new alignment is seen as your learning period (does anyone else remember those rules from the alignment section?).
:hatsoff:
QuoteIt serves the purpose to have a hard coded GM leash on PC alignment behavior. It's just like NWPs are there to help define what your character can do *really well* -- you may be dextrous, but why should that make you a concert pianist if you've never seen a piano before, along with being a world class acrobat, legerdemain trickster, and basket weaver san pareil. Some people like tools to rein in PC potentiality to retain believability. When someone is LG they want their behavior to stay LG; so what tools do you have to ensure breaches have ramifications?
Some people like hard tools (rule mechanics), some people like soft tools (setting restraints), and some people like none and work completely on trust. And some people like all of those tools and find themselves using all three at different levels at various times. And as long as the system is flexible enough for people to tailor to their table, none of this is a real problem.
I like the tools of alignment and alignment languages myself and don't find them problematic. But then I also don't have issues worrying about class balance either. Thankfully I'm accommodated by the flexibility of older games and don't have a real worry about this. Therefore happy fun time for all.
Excellent points all around.
All you guys seem to be saying with the whole "it's jargon and gestures and a way of carrying yourself which communicate to the other person that you have similar beliefs" thing is that alignment languages are like a detect alignment spell but less powerful.
I think that is a very bland way of imagining the concept.
Quote from: noisms;565610All you guys seem to be saying with the whole "it's jargon and gestures and a way of carrying yourself which communicate to the other person that you have similar beliefs" thing is that alignment languages are like a detect alignment spell but less powerful.
I think that is a very bland way of imagining the concept.
I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not what I am saying. I am saying that with alignment languages people could communicate. They may not be able to read Shakespeare to each other, but they could telegraph simple plans.
If you and I were in a pickle, and two armed thugs were approaching us, and I said to you, "I think we should pull a Sir Robin maneuver." I just used our Holy Grail Alignment Tongue to say we should run away.
If we were at Gencon and we saw a group of gamers get run down by a truck and we ran inside and somebody said, "What happened?!" and we said, "TPK!"
Aside from being dickheads, we would be speaking in alignment tongue...if being a gamer was an alignment.
OH! Another good analogy, and that's all these are, are pot smokers. People who smoke pot regularly can generally identify other pot smokers, and through a series of gestures, and code words can communicate the idea "Let's go to my car a smoke a joint."
Quote from: Pariah74;565617I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not what I am saying. I am saying that with alignment languages people could communicate. They may not be able to read Shakespeare to each other, but they could telegraph simple plans.
If you and I were in a pickle, and two armed thugs were approaching us, and I said to you, "I think we should pull a Sir Robin maneuver." I just used our Holy Grail Alignment Tongue to say we should run away.
If we were at Gencon and we saw a group of gamers get run down by a truck and we ran inside and somebody said, "What happened?!" and we said, "TPK!"
Aside from being dickheads, we would be speaking in alignment tongue...if being a gamer was an alignment.
Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, that works.
Quote from: noisms;565620Okay, I see what you mean. Yeah, that works.
You may be the first person I have converted to alignment tongues. Go forth and use it to spread the gospel! lol
Quote from: Pariah74;565622You may be the first person I have converted to alignment tongues. Go forth and use it to spread the gospel! lol
The real question, is why exactly two individials would have a similar way to communicate based ONLY on alignment. Not Race, not Culture, not Knowledge. They are communicating ONLY due to alignment.
How would you describe that; as in, how do they communicate?
A Noble woman CE Drow priestess happens to stumble upon an illiterate CE Halfling thief bandit.
Neither has ever heard of the other race, neither culture has ever met. They have very different backgrounds.
Yet still they communicate in CE.
Hmmmmm....
That might require some sort of Cosmology to justify; such as Gods linking mortals by alignment supernaturally.
Quote from: Bill;565632The real question, is why exactly two individials would have a similar way to communicate based ONLY on alignment. Not Race, not Culture, not Knowledge. They are communicating ONLY due to alignment.
How would you describe that; as in, how do they communicate?
A Noble woman CE Drow priestess happens to stumble upon an illiterate CE Halfling thief bandit.
Neither has ever heard of the other race, neither culture has ever met. They have very different backgrounds.
Yet still they communicate in CE.
Hmmmmm....
That might require some sort of Cosmology to justify; such as Gods linking mortals by alignment supernaturally.
What about saying it's a resonance thing? Each person has an alignment, and it might change, but they never have to spend time learning a new language, and you aren't able to use your alignment language anymore if yours changes, but you shouldn't forget it.
So, everyone's alignment has an 'alignment resonance' that they can communicate with using the equivalent of a 'twin speak' that transfers via their resonance to those that can hear it. They might not understand the exact words, but they know what you mean. And because the resonance doesn't transfer to someone who's a different alignment, if yours doesn't match, then the other person can't understand what you're trying to say.
It seems workable enough to me that I'll probably add that as my justification whenever I run a game again.
Quote from: Bill;565632The real question, is why exactly two individials would have a similar way to communicate based ONLY on alignment. Not Race, not Culture, not Knowledge. They are communicating ONLY due to alignment.
How would you describe that; as in, how do they communicate?
A Noble woman CE Drow priestess happens to stumble upon an illiterate CE Halfling thief bandit.
Neither has ever heard of the other race, neither culture has ever met. They have very different backgrounds.
Yet still they communicate in CE.
Hmmmmm....
That might require some sort of Cosmology to justify; such as Gods linking mortals by alignment supernaturally.
Again, I said that they would not be reading poetry to each other but simple ideas could be conveyed. "I'm going to attack you!" "Something over there is dangerous!" "Give me your gold and I'll let you live."
I don't see it as a formalized and structured lexicon, but rather a way of reading the intentions of like minded individuals.
And no, they don't have the same backgrounds, but they have the same philosophy on life. As somebody posted earlier, to understand alignments you need to understand how the other planes of existence influence the Prime plane. This isn't something that directly exists in our world, so I can only draw analogies.
But yes, those two beings would be able to communicate ideas through gestures. Sure, limited common language would be a problem, but that's something the GM can determine. Do we really need strict rules for it? It's something ambiguous, and seemingly meant for GMs to play with and interpret.
Quote from: Pariah74;565617I can't speak for anyone else, but that's not what I am saying. I am saying that with alignment languages people could communicate. They may not be able to read Shakespeare to each other, but they could telegraph simple plans.
If you and I were in a pickle, and two armed thugs were approaching us, and I said to you, "I think we should pull a Sir Robin maneuver." I just used our Holy Grail Alignment Tongue to say we should run away.
If we were at Gencon and we saw a group of gamers get run down by a truck and we ran inside and somebody said, "What happened?!" and we said, "TPK!"
Aside from being dickheads, we would be speaking in alignment tongue...if being a gamer was an alignment.
OH! Another good analogy, and that's all these are, are pot smokers. People who smoke pot regularly can generally identify other pot smokers, and through a series of gestures, and code words can communicate the idea "Let's go to my car a smoke a joint."
This is actually what traffickers in contraband often do. For instance when a buddy calls me on the phone and says, "I got a new issue of the Kirby; do you want to come over and read some comics?" he isn't talking about The Mighty Thor #135.
Apparently when my wife was little, and then old enough to figure it out, her uncle would come over and ask her dad if they needed to "check the furnace."
And it's alignment language because, I am guessing, your friend never sat you down and said, "Here's our code..." you just knew what he was talking about.
Likewise, my wife's uncle never said, "When I say furnace I mean reefer" He just said it with subtle tones and inflections that her father instantly knew what he meant.
Quote from: Pariah74;565665Apparently when my wife was little, and then old enough to figure it out, her uncle would come over and ask her dad if they needed to "check the furnace."
And it's alignment language because, I am guessing, your friend never sat you down and said, "Here's our code..." you just knew what he was talking about.
Likewise, my wife's uncle never said, "When I say furnace I mean reefer" He just said it with subtle tones and inflections that her father instantly knew what he meant.
Actually this particular code has an origin that involves a long ago event which combined the activity in question with sitting on the floor of a room full of long boxes and actually reading comics.
Quote from: Gib;565642This is actually what traffickers in contraband often do. For instance when a buddy calls me on the phone and says, "I got a new issue of the Kirby; do you want to come over and read some comics?" he isn't talking about The Mighty Thor #135.
Pot smokers do not all have the same alignment.
Also, if alignment languages is a sound concept, why can't I use them in real life?
I am Lawful Good. So I should get those lawful Good vibes from other LG people, right?
Anyway, I do think alignment ;languages can make some sense in dnd due to the planar cosmology.
Pot smoking? I was talking about soft drinks with real sugar.
Ohhh...Coke then.
We could approximate it to world analogies, but then we'd have to all agree on what is the standard in the world. That's just not going to happen nowadays (because we all have different alignments with different agendas, you non-Lawful Good heathens you! :mad: ). But, since the GM is the creator of the setting, they are also the ones who define the spectrum of alignments. There's some table talk of course, but it is the GM's judgment that defines how the entirety of Theosophy gets reduced to an abstract dual-axis 9 point spectrum. With that you have similar codes, symbols, and behaviors that the GM will interpret as being part of that alignment.
So we'll never be able to objectively take this out into a real world context. However we can make rough cross-culture estimations. As a crude example, when people willfully desecrate the sacred within their own culture you'd have a similar Evil or Chaotic shibboleth that crosses cultures. Someone who burns the Koran while smearing themselves with sigils in pigs blood would be recognized by someone who uses upside-down crosses and blood pentagrams in a black mass as a fellow kindred spirit. And they both wouldn't do or talk about this openly unless they wanted to look like an idiot and be ostracized by important people active in their alignment.
Like recognizing kind is something we deal with every day. Except it's so ingrained it's hard for us to recognize when we use it. Just like native speakers of a language can tell you when you're using the language wrong, but on thorough analysis can't tell you exactly why. It's hard to self-analyze from within, especially if you're not deeply familiar with anything outside to compare it to. But, being a part of something, you know it when you see it.
It's kind of magical traveling overseas and noticing how quickly druggies find like minds, or party people find kindred spirits, or straight edgers meet, or notorious gossips end up creating new cliques. We know who we are and what we like and we tend to be fast in recognizing similar desires in others. It's sorta what people in society do; we test the waters, tentatively throw out jargon towards those we suspect are kin, and then self-sort ourselves accordingly. Nothing terribly strange to understand.
Quote from: Opaopajr;565832We could approximate it to world analogies, but then we'd have to all agree on what is the standard in the world. That's just not going to happen nowadays (because we all have different alignments with different agendas, you non-Lawful Good heathens you! :mad: ). But, since the GM is the creator of the setting, they are also the ones who define the spectrum of alignments. There's some table talk of course, but it is the GM's judgment that defines how the entirety of Theosophy gets reduced to an abstract dual-axis 9 point spectrum. With that you have similar codes, symbols, and behaviors that the GM will interpret as being part of that alignment.
So we'll never be able to objectively take this out into a real world context. However we can make rough cross-culture estimations. As a crude example, when people willfully desecrate the sacred within their own culture you'd have a similar Evil or Chaotic shibboleth that crosses cultures. Someone who burns the Koran while smearing themselves with sigils in pigs blood would be recognized by someone who uses upside-down crosses and blood pentagrams in a black mass as a fellow kindred spirit. And they both wouldn't do or talk about this openly unless they wanted to look like an idiot and be ostracized by important people active in their alignment.
Like recognizing kind is something we deal with every day. Except it's so ingrained it's hard for us to recognize when we use it. Just like native speakers of a language can tell you when you're using the language wrong, but on thorough analysis can't tell you exactly why. It's hard to self-analyze from within, especially if you're not deeply familiar with anything outside to compare it to. But, being a part of something, you know it when you see it.
It's kind of magical traveling overseas and noticing how quickly druggies find like minds, or party people find kindred spirits, or straight edgers meet, or notorious gossips end up creating new cliques. We know who we are and what we like and we tend to be fast in recognizing similar desires in others. It's sorta what people in society do; we test the waters, tentatively throw out jargon towards those we suspect are kin, and then self-sort ourselves accordingly. Nothing terribly strange to understand.
+1 and re-posted because it won't fit in my sig.
Quote from: Bill;565632The real question, is why exactly two individials would have a similar way to communicate based ONLY on alignment. Not Race, not Culture, not Knowledge. They are communicating ONLY due to alignment.
How would you describe that; as in, how do they communicate?
I see that all the time in movies from the 1950s. A vagrant drifts through town and every one sizes him up. A lawful vagrant will look people in the eyes, answer questions quickly, have a honest handshake, always wash up before eating, and make a big deal about how clean healthy and friendly things are. A chaotic vagrant has shifty eyes, is mealy mouthed, doesn't care about hygene and is fixated on get rich quick schemes.
They don't talk theology, or political parties or race. Those things are easy to figure out logicaly. But no, they have a sort of "sixth sense" about figuring out who's gonna be worth feeding and who's gonna be trouble.
QuoteA Noble woman CE Drow priestess happens to stumble upon an illiterate CE Halfling thief bandit.
Neither has ever heard of the other race, neither culture has ever met. They have very different backgrounds.
Yet still they communicate in CE.
If they both speak common, then they'll quickly communicate some essential CE stuff, like "don't mess with my stuff or I'll cut you."
Without a shared language they'll do the same thing just by sizing each other up.
QuoteHmmmmm....
That might require some sort of Cosmology to justify; such as Gods linking mortals by alignment supernaturally.
...or you can justify it with all those studies that show that people are aligned with the American Left or Right, and those alignments are stable over time linked with observable characteristics like the much ballyhooed Rick Santorum gag reflex. link (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/02/could_the_separation_of_church_and_state_make_rick_santorum_throw_up_.html)
TLDR: cleanliness is next to godliness.
Quote from: noisms;565610All you guys seem to be saying with the whole "it's jargon and gestures and a way of carrying yourself which communicate to the other person that you have similar beliefs" thing is that alignment languages are like a detect alignment spell but less powerful.
I think that is a very bland way of imagining the concept.
Well, I think that the only way the concept really works for me is in the terms of it being "modes of recognition".
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;566113Well, I think that the only way the concept really works for me is in the terms of it being "modes of recognition".
RPGPundit
Yeah, kinda like a detect personality or an insight skill.
Alignment language is one of those unique and weird things about old D&D, and it really only makes sense with the cosmology of old D&D.
You die, your spirit goes to the outer plane...where exactly depends on your alignment, which is a core part of you. Your alignment is your ticket to a spot on the outer planes, and it's also a ticket to a mode of communication of others that, ultimately, will go to the same place you are.
This is part of why changing alignment in old D&D was such a huge deal, causing loss of level and some other nastiness.
The whole old cosmology pit alignments in some competition with each other, based on how far apart they were.
Metagaming, this system served as a (questionable) tool to aid in role playing, and it also gave some explanation for how that chaotic evil wizard managed to get along and communicate with other chaotic evil creatures: even if they didn't share a "normal" language, they shared an alignment, and thus an alignment language, allowing some form of communication.
Quote from: Malleus Arianorum;565918I see that all the time in movies from the 1950s. A vagrant drifts through town and every one sizes him up. A lawful vagrant will look people in the eyes, answer questions quickly, have a honest handshake, always wash up before eating, and make a big deal about how clean healthy and friendly things are. A chaotic vagrant has shifty eyes, is mealy mouthed, doesn't care about hygene and is fixated on get rich quick schemes.
They don't talk theology, or political parties or race. Those things are easy to figure out logicaly. But no, they have a sort of "sixth sense" about figuring out who's gonna be worth feeding and who's gonna be trouble.
If they both speak common, then they'll quickly communicate some essential CE stuff, like "don't mess with my stuff or I'll cut you."
Without a shared language they'll do the same thing just by sizing each other up.
...or you can justify it with all those studies that show that people are aligned with the American Left or Right, and those alignments are stable over time linked with observable characteristics like the much ballyhooed Rick Santorum gag reflex. link (http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2012/02/could_the_separation_of_church_and_state_make_rick_santorum_throw_up_.html)
TLDR: cleanliness is next to godliness.
People know their own alignment language. (Other than assasins!)
So a neutral good person can only use this mode of communication with another ng person.
But poor NG person is sadly unable to communicate the same way with a Neutral, CG, or LG person.
Can't tell who is good, or neutral. only if they are ng.
Fortunately the Assasins can open a school, to teach the good how to communutate with goodness.
Quote from: Doom;566380Alignment language is one of those unique and weird things about old D&D, and it really only makes sense with the cosmology of old D&D.
You die, your spirit goes to the outer plane...where exactly depends on your alignment, which is a core part of you. Your alignment is your ticket to a spot on the outer planes, and it's also a ticket to a mode of communication of others that, ultimately, will go to the same place you are.
Which leads me to another idea altogether: What if on each of the outer planes they speak the Alignment Language of that plane?
RPGPundit
I don't think there's a "what if" there...of course they do. If you're LN, then you speak the alignment language of LN.
Everyone native to the LN plane (and is LN, although that should be redundant) would of course speak this language.
I'm really hard pressed to think of any representation of the afterlife where language is a problem of like-minded folk.
Alignment languages work if they are actual languages that origionate from the outer planes.
But if they are not handled as an actual language that is learned like any other, the logic breaks down.
Quote from: Bill;567111Alignment languages work if they are actual languages that origionate from the outer planes.
But if they are not handled as an actual language that is learned like any other, the logic breaks down.
How? We already described how shibboleths work. I think it's far too easy getting hung up on the word "language" here. And calling it an Alignment Cant just sounds aesthetically silly.
It's a concept that includes everything from symbols, attitudes, jargon, possibly even discreet fashion -- all underlaid with deep meaning. We deal with similar subculture codes on a daily basis. Further, as a linguist by education, language is a very complicated concept often misunderstood and inappropriately applied.
I give full benefit of the doubt that EGG, TSR & co. simply made a gross terminology error of application, using a very loaded word when another more obscure one would've sufficed.
Quote from: Opaopajr;567402How? We already described how shibboleths work. I think it's far too easy getting hung up on the word "language" here. And calling it an Alignment Cant just sounds aesthetically silly.
It's a concept that includes everything from symbols, attitudes, jargon, possibly even discreet fashion -- all underlaid with deep meaning. We deal with similar subculture codes on a daily basis. Further, as a linguist by education, language is a very complicated concept often misunderstood and inappropriately applied.
I give full benefit of the doubt that EGG, TSR & co. simply made a gross terminology error of application, using a very loaded word when another more obscure one would've sufficed.
Here is why the logic does not work.
A NG person can not use this mode of communication with CG, LG, or N people.
The logic does not work.
No to mention none of us can use this mode of communication in real life.
Seriously, I never get secret body language communication from people based on alignment.
Based on other factors, sure. But not on alignment.
Someon angry sends a out a vibe, but you can't tell if he is 'good' or 'nuetral'
A person flirting sends out a vibe, but again, who knows if they are 'good' or evil'?
I will defend alignment languages based on dnd planar cosmology, and if they are actual languages.
But not the universal communication based only on alignment.
What about the relationship between alignment languages and common?
I mean, if we go with the theory (I don't, but for argument's sake...) that alignment languages are like slang or 'cant', then what are they a slang of?
If they're all slangs of Common, then what about two people who share the same alignment but one of them doesn't speak Common? In a real life example, I might pepper my language with references that give me away as a Monty Python fan or an anarchist or whatever, but if the guy standing in front of me is Vietnamese who's also a Monthy Python fan or an anarchist and he doesn't speak a word of Hungarian, English, Japanese or Italian, we're just not going to communicate, because all my slang is in the wrong language.
I could imagine them more as separate languages associated, to use real world examples, with certain professions. Most doctors are likely to speak at least a bit of Latin, career diplomats are likely to have a bit of French, etc.. Now, the example is imperfect, because Latin and French also exist as languages on their own, but you get the idea.
Quote from: Premier;567578What about the relationship between alignment languages and common?
I mean, if we go with the theory (I don't, but for argument's sake...) that alignment languages are like slang or 'cant', then what are they a slang of?
If they're all slangs of Common, then what about two people who share the same alignment but one of them doesn't speak Common? In a real life example, I might pepper my language with references that give me away as a Monty Python fan or an anarchist or whatever, but if the guy standing in front of me is Vietnamese who's also a Monthy Python fan or an anarchist and he doesn't speak a word of Hungarian, English, Japanese or Italian, we're just not going to communicate, because all my slang is in the wrong language.
I could imagine them more as separate languages associated, to use real world examples, with certain professions. Most doctors are likely to speak at least a bit of Latin, career diplomats are likely to have a bit of French, etc.. Now, the example is imperfect, because Latin and French also exist as languages on their own, but you get the idea.
Again though, you run into the problem that you can't learn the languages, and if your alignment changes, you automatically speak your new alignment language instead of your old one, and can no longer communicate in the old language. It's that aspect that Bill keeps bringing up as a cosmology thing. If it's based on the patronage of a deity or an affiliation with a specific plane, or a spiritual resonance, it becomes more appropriate as written, IMO.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;567580Again though, you run into the problem that you can't learn the languages, and if your alignment changes, you automatically speak your new alignment language instead of your old one, and can no longer communicate in the old language. It's that aspect that Bill keeps bringing up as a cosmology thing. If it's based on the patronage of a deity or an affiliation with a specific plane, or a spiritual resonance, it becomes more appropriate as written, IMO.
Okay, with that in mind, perhaps it's like this:
Consider Latin today. People with literary/historical background would know classical poetry and aphorisms. Lawyers would know legal terms. Doctors, anatomy. Clergy would Church Latin. It's a separate language from your native one, and you only know a part of it, but that part can be used to communicate ideas within the typical topics of your "alignment". And if you change your area of interest, your knowledge will eventually get rusty in one topic while you'll improve in another.
I still do not see how it cannot work, especially since we already use similar modes of communication already in everyday life. Where do you see the logic failing from a NG person communicating his NG-ness to an NG but not to an LG, CG, or N alignment? Your setting is your setting, but just because a concept holds a particular ethos doesn't mean any ethos overlap has any bearing on the modalities of in-group communication assumptions.
Symbols are good example here. Just because one exists does not guarantee it will be interpreted the same. And even if it is interpreted with broadly similar overlapping ethos assumptions does not preclude minor deviations bringing a separate and (assumed by its followers) deeper understanding to it.
And that Monty Python example cracks me up. I can remember many a time overseas when I would come across those without a lick of real English knowledge but could bust out their favorite English song with all the lyrics. And even then I remember how hip hop fans tried to emulate what they perceived was hip hop. Similar fans understood the sentiment even if their perspectives on what is truly hip hop diverged.
One of the more hilarious notes was those who translated some non-English hip hop and it ended up rapping about doing your homework and being good to your mama and eat your veggies. However there were other non-English hip hop acts who did get and echo an anti-establishment/underground ethos that was en vogue to another English speaking hip hop fan. The secret to these two understanding each other even though they didn't understand the language (and others who didn't fully understand the aesthetic he was searching for)?: the in-club performance showing resentment and rebellion to non-English authority. And thus a kinship connection was formed...
;)
So aesthetics can travel in complicated and nuanced ways wholly divorced from the full complications of language. And, as the latter hip hop example indicates, ethos can travel just as well, even embedded within another aesthetic. The world's mightily complicated true, but you'll be surprised what people can do to make sense through the babble. Language is one thing (and a very beautiful and complicated thing), but it's not the sole method of communication that humans use (and by extrapolation imaginary humanoids, too).
If you don't see it working for you, fine. But I know how it fits in games I run. I've already seen things in action that give me a basis to know how to run it.
QuoteSo aesthetics can travel in complicated and nuanced ways wholly divorced from the full complications of language. And, as the latter hip hop example indicates, ethos can travel just as well, even embedded within another aesthetic. The world's mightily complicated true, but you'll be surprised what people can do to make sense through the babble.
Sure, in worlds with mass media. Maybe your fantasy worlds have mass media! But if not it is harder to buy the idea of alignment language as some sort of amorphous meme transmission ("there goes that wizard talking about 'privilege' again"), or, for that matter, the existence of otherwise physically diffuse subcultures (as opposed to, say, specific mystery cults or the like).
I don't think alignment languages work very well unless alignment is a big, intrusive, supernatural aspect of your game world.
Well that goes back to the original comments where it matters what your setting is like. If it's not useful for your games, it's not useful. But my settings, even without mass media or priest spells (the big, intrusive, supernatural aspect to a game world), can easily work alignment languages in. Like knows kind throughout the ages; people tend to fall into circles they understand and prefer. For me, extrapolating that into shared ethos isn't very hard or requires explicit supernatural intervention.
But hey, if you can't see it making sense in your settings that's fine as well.
Quote from: Bill;567536Here is why the logic does not work.
A NG person can not use this mode of communication with CG, LG, or N people.
The logic does not work.
No to mention none of us can use this mode of communication in real life.
Seriously, I never get secret body language communication from people based on alignment.
Based on other factors, sure. But not on alignment.
I do. Granted, its within allegiance to certain groups, but that implies a common language of alignment, that others, on the outside do not have.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;568236I do. Granted, its within allegiance to certain groups, but that implies a common language of alignment, that others, on the outside do not have.
RPGPundit
So you are an Assasin! you can learn alignment languages!
Quote from: Bill;568518So you are an Assasin! you can learn alignment languages!
I'm a freemason. Amongst other things.
RPGPundit
He's also a freecarpenter and a freeplumber.
Quote from: Premier;568809He's also a freecarpenter and a freeplumber.
Anyone who knows me would know I'm definitely not either of those things!
RPGPundit