Quote from: S'mon;1135273It varies wildly by setting. But in most sea travel is not much more dangerous than IRL and sea trade is perfectly viable with the occasional ship loss. Travelling to market in civilised realms is similar too - somewhere like Cormyr it is probably a lot safer than IRL!

In a wasteland setting like the Wilderlands or Arnor you will definitely see less routine long distance travel, and merchants will travel in convoys a la the 1e monster manual.

Quote from: estar;1135294When gauging the effects of magic on travel and commerce keep in mind we do have a real world example, moving good by land versus sea. Transporting goods by sea is a least an order of magnitude more efficient in the medieval and ancient world.

What about sea monsters, like sahuagin, sea serpents, sea hags, kraken, creatures capable of summoning water elementals, giant sharks, harpies and other flying creatures that may nest in islands along travel routes, etc.? That's still a lot more dangerous than sea travel in the real world. D&D/fantasy worlds have a lot more things to throw at you than storms or lack of wind for your sails, which are bound to make sea travel a lot more interesting and precarious.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1135300What about sea monsters, like sahuagin, sea serpents, sea hags, kraken, creatures capable of summoning water elementals, giant sharks, harpies and other flying creatures that may nest in islands along travel routes, etc.? That's still a lot more dangerous than sea travel in the real world. D&D/fantasy worlds have a lot more things to throw at you than storms or lack of wind for your sails, which are bound to make sea travel a lot more interesting and precarious.

On the other hand, D&D also has wizards and priests who can fill your sails with wind and even control the weather. Those offerings at the sea god's temple become more than just a waste of resources now.

Quote from: S'mon;1135273It varies wildly by setting. But in most sea travel is not much more dangerous than IRL and sea trade is perfectly viable with the occasional ship loss. Travelling to market in civilised realms is similar too - somewhere like Cormyr it is probably a lot safer than IRL!

In a wasteland setting like the Wilderlands or Arnor you will definitely see less routine long distance travel, and merchants will travel in convoys a la the 1e monster manual.

I agree it's going to vary a lot by setting. I will say this: To many travellers, there's no real difference between a dragon and murderous bandits or pirates. Both will kill you just as dead. So depending on specific circumstances, it's possible that the presence of dragons means less bandits or pirates, and travel *isn't* more dangerous than in a no-monster world. It's just a different type of danger. But as you say, that depends on the world.

The 1e DMG random encounter tables, if statistically applied to all travellers, would make travel incredibly dangerous -- but then again, it's not any safer in the towns, given the City/Town encounter table. I think it's better to view the tables as a way to spice things up for the PCs rather than as a universal feature of the world.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1135300What about sea monsters, like sahuagin, sea serpents, sea hags, kraken, creatures capable of summoning water elementals, giant sharks, harpies and other flying creatures that may nest in islands along travel routes, etc.? That's still a lot more dangerous than sea travel in the real world. D&D/fantasy worlds have a lot more things to throw at you than storms or lack of wind for your sails, which are bound to make sea travel a lot more interesting and precarious.

Humans are history's worse monsters, pirates and corsairs were rife in the Mediterranean and north sea at various times. So monsters rule the waves which means little to no pirates or corsairs, or there are pirates and corsairs, or the coastal realms have it reasonably under control. So we can look to history for a baseline.

Quote from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PiracyThe Slavic piracy in the Baltic Sea ended with the Danish conquest of the Rani stronghold of Arkona in 1168. In the 12th century the coasts of western Scandinavia were plundered by Curonians and Oeselians from the eastern coast of the Baltic Sea. In the 13th and 14th century, pirates threatened the Hanseatic routes and nearly brought sea trade to the brink of extinction. The Victual Brothers of Gotland were a companionship of privateers who later turned to piracy as the Likedeelers. They were especially noted for their leaders Klaus Störtebeker and Gödeke Michels. Until about 1440, maritime trade in both the North Sea and the Baltic Sea was seriously in danger of attack by the pirates.

If the setting has monsters are out of control on land or sea then the situation the same for both which means the efficiency advantage of sea trade still remains. Obviously way less given the circumstances of the setting but land travel will be way less.

For example suppose one stipulates that beyond one day travel the odds being preyed on goes to near 100%. For land that means a 25 miles radius  beyond the settlement. For a coastal settlement one day's travel means 150 mile radius to anywhere that reachable by sea. No matter how one narrows the safe zone, the reach of seafaring communities is considerably greater.

Quote from: Blankman;1135310On the other hand, D&D also has wizards and priests who can fill your sails with wind and even control the weather. Those offerings at the sea god's temple become more than just a waste of resources now.

Which are supposed to be rare, though, that also varies depending on the setting. But you know who else has wizards and spell casting priests? Pirates and intelligent seafaring creatures. I'm guessing Fireball to the mast is a standard wizarding pirate strategy to stop their prey on their tracks.

Quote from: estar;1135315Humans are history's worse monsters, pirates and corsairs were rife in the Mediterranean and north sea at various times. So monsters rule the waves which means little to no pirates or corsairs, or there are pirates and corsairs, or the coastal realms have it reasonably under control. So we can look to history for a baseline.





If the setting has monsters are out of control on land or sea then the situation the same for both which means the efficiency advantage of sea trade still remains. Obviously way less given the circumstances of the setting but land travel will be way less.

For example suppose one stipulates that beyond one day travel the odds being preyed on goes to near 100%. For land that means a 25 miles radius  beyond the settlement. For a coastal settlement one day's travel means 150 mile radius to anywhere that reachable by sea. No matter how one narrows the safe zone, the reach of seafaring communities is considerably greater.

I suppose that's true. Unless those pirates are allied or have some sort of pact with seafaring intelligent creatures, though, that would still make things as interesting for them as they do for other sea travelers. But point remains that, even if sea travel is overall more efficient in terms of travel distance, travel by sea should still be potentially more perilous than in real life, which goes to Geeky's original point.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1135330Which are supposed to be rare, though, that also varies depending on the setting. But you know who else has wizards and spell casting priests? Pirates and intelligent seafaring creatures. I'm guessing Fireball to the mast is a standard wizarding pirate strategy to stop their prey on their tracks.

All of this depends on specific setting assumptions. I tend to dial the unreality up on an even keel though. So if there are a lot more monsters, there's a lot more magic as well. Whereas if magic is rare and most people have never seen it, then most people have probably never seen a monster either. Consider something like A Song of Ice and Fire. This is a setting that has wizards and sorcerers and priests that can bring people back from the dead, as well as dragons and giants and hordes of undead. But for most people, most of the time, none of that is relevant. Most travel isn't impacted by dragons or giants or undead, nor by blood magic or resurrection or shapeshifting assassins.

Compare this to something like The Forgotten Realms., A lot more monsters, but also a lot more magic. Now the average peasant may well have seen an orc or an ogre, but they've also probably seen a friendly cleric or wizard.

Quote from: Blankman;1135344All of this depends on specific setting assumptions. I tend to dial the unreality up on an even keel though. So if there are a lot more monsters, there's a lot more magic as well. Whereas if magic is rare and most people have never seen it, then most people have probably never seen a monster either. Consider something like A Song of Ice and Fire. This is a setting that has wizards and sorcerers and priests that can bring people back from the dead, as well as dragons and giants and hordes of undead. But for most people, most of the time, none of that is relevant. Most travel isn't impacted by dragons or giants or undead, nor by blood magic or resurrection or shapeshifting assassins.

Compare this to something like The Forgotten Realms., A lot more monsters, but also a lot more magic. Now the average peasant may well have seen an orc or an ogre, but they've also probably seen a friendly cleric or wizard.

Balancing the world, where's the fun then?

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135221Or they could learn that in those things there's a constant stream of tasty things...

Put the goal posts back where they were sonny.

Quote from: Omega;1135357Put the goal posts back where they were sonny.

I wasn't aware this was a debate.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135346Balancing the world, where's the fun then?

No, just having a generally consistent level of magic. Sure, there will be places where there are more trolls than wizards, and places where there are more wizards than trolls, but in general the more you increase the fantastic-ness, the more it increases.

Quote from: VisionStorm;1135300What about sea monsters, like sahuagin, sea serpents, sea hags, kraken, creatures capable of summoning water elementals, giant sharks, harpies and other flying creatures that may nest in islands along travel routes, etc.? That's still a lot more dangerous than sea travel in the real world. D&D/fantasy worlds have a lot more things to throw at you than storms or lack of wind for your sails, which are bound to make sea travel a lot more interesting and precarious.

Depends on your encounter tables of course. But I've seen more ships lost to storms than monsters. IRL weather and getting lost were usually bigger threats than pirates. And most monsters are less dangerous than pirates.

In my Thule game recently the PCs lost a 300 man war galley to some really bad weather rolls (and putting back out to sea during the storm for fear of enemies on land). Next time they put to sea they first had a bunch of priests do a ceremony to placate the sea goddess Tiamat.

Compared to their terror of the weather, the 10 headed sea hydra they butchered off Nimoth was nothing.

With overland travel, outside civilised areas you won't see many small, pc-group sized bands of travellers. If there are pilgrims or merchants they'll be in groups of 20-200 more likely than 2-20. But the monster threat is very similar to the brigand threat, very few settings have common monsters be super deadly.

Finally - travel was dangerous IRL! People and ships were often lost, killed, enslaved et al. People still did it.

To me, the biggest difference in a notably fantastical setting is that odds on the Russian Roulette that is travel become much more unpredictable. Or maybe more accurate to say that the overall odds are predictable (otherwise, trade wouldn't happen much), but the odds in any time and place are less predictable.  Which is why the merchant caravan would think it a good idea if some adventurers wanted to travel with them for a ways--such a good idea that the caravan master might offer to pay adventurers.

In the real world or something close to it, the worries are weather, disease, logistics, hostile natives, bandits, people on your own side that aren't dependable or even traitors, and so forth.  And margins on those light enough on average to make a profit.  In the fantastical version, you've probably got most or all of those worries, plus much more powerful natural or semi-natural predators, outright monsters, plants that move and want to eat you or charm you or generally mess up your day, the unliving animated remains of prior caravans or the bandits that robbed them, and so on.  You counter that with adventurers.  

For the owner of the merchant corporation, that's just the cost of doing business.  It's still traditional Russian Roulette for him, with the cost of failure being a lost caravan. For the caravan master, merchants, guards, and any adventurers going along, it's Russian Roulette where some trips have no effective rounds in the chamber at all.  Spin it how much you want, the caravan can easily handle everything thrown at them.  Sometimes, half the chambers are loaded.  Sometimes, all but one are loaded.

Being the caravan master isn't as bad as being an Allied bomber pilot over Germany, circa 1943.  But I would expect a certain degree of stoicism, fatalism, or the like to emerge in the breed.

I've been playing in Eberron, and the use of magical trains, (non-wind-powered) ships, and airships along with rarer but still accessible teleportation circles makes the world somewhat smaller...for those with deep pockets. Of course, in 5e, there's not all that much to spend gold on these days.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135159First order of business (if I were in charge), is to build a series of forts along the land routes, not too far away from each other, roads and clear the forests around the roads, not a single tree or bush in a few hundred yards from the road.

Maintaining a King's Road is expensive. That would require taxes and tolls which increase the price of trade.

Quote from: GeekyBugle;1135219But we have guys with guns to prevent the engineers from taking over, if the wizards decided to take over how would you stop them? Your army, guards, etc don't have the firepower.

Thus the trope of the Wizard-King in fantasy....and it requires a Conan to stop a Thulsa-Doom.

Quote from: jhkim;1135313So depending on specific circumstances, it's possible that the presence of dragons means less bandits or pirates, and travel *isn't* more dangerous than in a no-monster world.

This is a good point. Bandits and Pirates either need to be allied with monsters or the risk is even greater for them as they lack the safe harbor of a friendly town or port. Or they're just monster snacks too.

Quote from: S'mon;1135395Finally - travel was dangerous IRL! People and ships were often lost, killed, enslaved et al. People still did it.

It's the ROI. If you're a peasant who will see nothing but coppers at best their whole life, then maybe risking everything for a pouch of gold is worth the risk.