Quote from: jmarso on December 30, 2021, 10:43:54 AMIt's the Law of Primacy for us old Grogs, to a certain extent. When we see something new, there's always that tendency to want to 'run home to mama' on what we cut our teeth on. 

Thats fine. I think 5e is the worst edition by far. Id just aproach it at the very least as its presented or wants to be (a moduclar customizable edition), instead of just asking for 1e again.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 30, 2021, 11:57:59 AM
Its just an arbitrary punishment and a gleeful use of arbitrary mechanics.

I can't speak to anyone else, but there is nothing 'gleeful' about encounters like that for me as the DM. I'm not out to deliberately kill my players, so the tension and sense of danger is real for me as well. It sucks when a bad die roll does in a character, but the risk needs to be there for the game to have teeth and be exciting/ engaging. The howls of excitement or despair that go round the table at these moments is what makes for memorable gaming.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 30, 2021, 12:01:41 PM

Quote from: jmarso on December 30, 2021, 10:43:54 AMIt's the Law of Primacy for us old Grogs, to a certain extent. When we see something new, there's always that tendency to want to 'run home to mama' on what we cut our teeth on. 

Thats fine. I think 5e is the worst edition by far. Id just aproach it at the very least as its presented or wants to be (a moduclar customizable edition), instead of just asking for 1e again.

I said somewhere else that I think there is a nearly perfect system to be found somewhere between the 2E and 5E rulesets. 

Quote from: jmarso on December 30, 2021, 12:19:19 PMthe risk needs to be there for the game to have teeth and be exciting/ engaging.

I agree about that, and I think 5e is the most toothless, I just think death saves n(not the 5e kind) are just a bad mechanic. Because its such a separate jump from HP. HP is a very heroic 'unrealistic' type of health management. Almost superheroic. Your in top tip until your arbitrarily not.
But then suddenly there is the save mechanic which operates by a different universe. So wether or not your superhero action man or dirt farmer depends or not on the kind of centipede you encounter.

Using mythological characters for comparison I find poor because mthology is mythology. Its based on theme and a story. No mythological story would work out the way it did in it if the characters operated through D&D 1e sumilation.

I like Savage Worlds. It operates almost completly through save mechanics. It has save or die, every damage you take punishes your future rolls and speed, every hit has the potential to oneshot you, being downed has the chance to attach potentially permanent injuries (or just dying). But I find it integrates it all into a much more cohesive package.

Quote from: jmarso on December 30, 2021, 12:19:19 PMI said somewhere else that I think there is a nearly perfect system to be found somewhere between the 2E and 5E rulesets. 

I think 5e is all bad. There is borderline nothing good to be found in its mechanics.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 30, 2021, 10:06:58 AM

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 30, 2021, 09:27:44 AMHD at least was a 1:1 comparison.

And was worse as that.

We'll have to agree to disagree then. In decades of GMing, I never had problems putting encounters together until I tried to use CR. YMMV, I guess.

Quote from: Ratman_tf on December 30, 2021, 12:32:11 PMWe'll have to agree to disagree then. In decades of GMing, I never had problems putting encounters together until I tried to use CR. YMMV, I guess.

I think CR is trash. I just think HD as somesort of measurement is just nothing. Saying 'Id rather use nothing as a measuring tool then CR' to be more accurate.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 30, 2021, 12:29:09 PMNo mythological story would work out the way it did in it if the characters operated through D&D 1e sumilation.

True statement.

QuoteI like Savage Worlds. It operates almost completly through save mechanics. It has save or die, every damage you take punishes your future rolls and speed, every hit has the potential to oneshot you, being downed has the chance to attach potentially permanent injuries (or just dying). But I find it integrates it all into a much more cohesive package.

I'm not familiar with Savage Worlds. I might have to give it a look. Do all those potential outcomes from a hit come baked into the mechanics in an easy to use way, or is the DM having to stop and check /roll a bunch of stuff each time someone takes a hit?

QuoteI think CR is trash. I just think HD as some sort of measurement is just nothing. Saying 'Id rather use nothing as a measuring tool then CR' to be more accurate.

I have never been able to use CR with any degree of success since it became a thing. HD always seemed fairly straightforward to me.

Quote from: jmarso on December 30, 2021, 12:37:23 PMI'm not familiar with Savage Worlds. I might have to give it a look. Do all those potential outcomes from a hit come baked into the mechanics in an easy to use way, or is the DM having to stop and check /roll a bunch of stuff each time someone takes a hit?

Im not sure what a 'hit-come' mechanic is.

Give me a couple of more months.  I've been doing a total conversion for my home group that changes to the system dramatically, while keeping the basic fremwork.  Some previews to follow when I get a chance...

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 30, 2021, 12:44:40 PM

Quote from: jmarso on December 30, 2021, 12:37:23 PMI'm not familiar with Savage Worlds. I might have to give it a look. Do all those potential outcomes from a hit come baked into the mechanics in an easy to use way, or is the DM having to stop and check /roll a bunch of stuff each time someone takes a hit?

Im not sure what a 'hit-come' mechanic is.

Let me rephrase: Are all the potential outcomes of a hit (i.e.: one shot death, penalties to hit, etc) baked into the mechanics in an easy to use way, or is the DM having to stop and check /roll a bunch of stuff each time someone takes a hit?

I would not change 5E, there's too much I don't like. My ideal d20 would be the core mechanics from 3.0 (unified stat mods, ascending AC, action economy, dying and death, robust skill system) without the baroque garbage (prcs, level dipping, junk feats, 3pp nonsense, etc.)

The end result would probably look like Worlds Without Number.

Quote from: jmarso on December 30, 2021, 01:59:55 PM
Let me rephrase: Are all the potential outcomes of a hit (i.e.: one shot death, penalties to hit, etc) baked into the mechanics in an easy to use way, or is the DM having to stop and check /roll a bunch of stuff each time someone takes a hit?

Yes. Its pretty simple overall. Its not like GURPS or something. Its much more streamlined then 3e even. All I listed is the possible outcome of at most 3 rolls.

I could go more into detail if your interested.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on December 30, 2021, 02:21:39 PM

Quote from: jmarso on December 30, 2021, 01:59:55 PM
Let me rephrase: Are all the potential outcomes of a hit (i.e.: one shot death, penalties to hit, etc) baked into the mechanics in an easy to use way, or is the DM having to stop and check /roll a bunch of stuff each time someone takes a hit?

Yes. Its pretty simple overall. Its not like GURPS or something. Its much more streamlined then 3e even. All I listed is the possible outcome of at most 3 rolls.

I could go more into detail if your interested.

Not necessary- I might dig into it a little more on my own. Thanks!

Considering that 5e is now the city of Troy after the Trojan Horse and is now burning to the ground I say let it burn to the ground. Give D&D some time to be dead and then a few years later bring it back in a new form. It can't be saved.

Quote from: Aglondir on December 30, 2021, 02:06:11 PMThe end result would probably look like Worlds Without Number.

You could also mix in some elements from Stars Without number or Codex of the Black sun into there as well.

TBH, I find 5e has a great "skeleton" and I would change nothing major.

I feel abilities and skills are somewhat redundant, and you could get rid of skills entirely by doubling ability bonuses.

Same for saving throws.

I prefer spell points to spell slots. And that's just me, but I don't need 500+ spells - less than a hundred would suffice. Maybe fewer spell lists too.

I don't see the point of weapon restrictions, etc. Let anyone use any weapon and fighters do so with a bonus IMO.

And 1st level PCs should be a bit simpler/easier to make.

Death saves could use some tweaking.

Weapons and armor need extensive rewrites - they are truly awful.

Some classes deserve lots of small changes, or a complete overhaul, but that's basically all I can think of right now.

Overall, a house-ruled 5e is my second favorite D&D (after some house-ruled basic/RC); better than 1e, 2e, 3e and 4e IMO.