I have a friend who has just started playing D&D who has 3 children (ages 13, 9, and 8) who all want to play D&D with her. She has very little experience with the game and I was going to give her a copy of a beginner's version of the game.
Now, I was going to give her a copy of the Basic D&D and Expert D&D books. However, I'd like to hear people's opinions on this because I considered the D&D 5E Basic download, but decided against it because it is not very conducive for self-teaching and I wanted that to be a large aspect of this.
So tell me if I am making a good choice here and let me know why it is or is not a good choice.
I think you want to get her off on the right foot with a 'teach her to fish' design, not a 'give her a fish' design. Something that makes it easy to create and run her own adventures. 5e as currently constituted does not do that, though the Starter Set is decent for a 10 session mini-campaign.
For playing with my son (7) we have found, especially as he moves into GMing himself, that the best thing is the Pathfinder Beginner Box plus the pages on dungeon creation from Moldvay Basic - especially page 52 on room contents & treasure. The PBB goes levels 1-5 like the 5e Starter Set, but unlike the SS is a complete game with full rules for creating PCs, creating adventures, great encounter tables etc. Bill uses the map tiles from Descent to create a dungeon, stocks it with the Moldvay and PBB tables, and it works really well. You can equally draw out dungeons on the flipmat in the PBB, or just on sketch paper. So that's my recommendation.
If you won't consider the PBB, then I would recommend Moldvay Basic, with Cook/Marsh Expert later, but I recommend her house-ruling starting hit points for less lethality. I've been using 'hit die roll + full CON attribute' for starting hp in Labyrinth Lord recently, and that works extremely well.
D&D 5e being the extant official, in-print version of D&D, I'd be somewhat inclined to go with 5e Basic. And I say this as a huge B/X and BECMI/RC fan.
There's the ease of finding other players, and the aesthetics which hew closer to the pop culture they're being exposed to, and all sorts of not immediately game-table-relevant circumstances that I think weigh the decision in favor of 5e.
In any case, if they find 5e too complicated, I'd pull out a copy of LL. And if they like 5e, still, I might hand them a copy of LL before even handing them the 5e PHB/MM/DMG, because I'm a bad person. ;)
BX is still for sale on the WOTC shop as PDFs so at least it and some of the modules from it and BECMI are still availible in that format.
Personally Id go with BX for its absolute ease of getting into and about zero pressure on having uber stats or any of the baggage we have accumilated up to 5e.
5e as it stands is hard to say if its going to be totally viable on the levels of BX and AD&D. Both had about all the system requirements to run as far as you wanted. Once we know just how robust or anemic the DMG is we will have a better idea.
One thing to keep in mind is that BX is incomplete without Keep on the Borderlands and to a lesser degree Isle of Dread as both are extensions of the rules. Keep has more DMing pointers and Isle has the world map and some base info on each kingdom. The rest was left up to the PCs to flesh out.
I don't think there is any better D&D for beginners than B/X if you include learning to DM and construct adventures and a game world.
The Pathfinder beginner box is also a great tool to teach players but B/X wins on DM instruction.
My vote would be for BX. Just a little less involved than 5th to me. If you did go the 5th route, I'd say start them off with the starter box.
I concur with B/X, the D&D 5e Basic may be a good substitute when they get to Version 1 but right now they function more as a functional preview and try it before you buy product.
5e Starter set is very good as a beginner set for 5e. That said, for younger new players? IMO you can't beat Mentzers Basic. The walk thru adventure (damn you Bargle!) does an excellent job teaching how the D&D game works.
The 5E rules in the Starter Set are only marginally more complex than B/X, and the adventure included is good for at least a half-dozen sessions. I wouldn't assume someone who is raising three young kids has the time or inclination to make up her own adventures right off the hop.
Quote from: Haffrung;801672The 5E rules in the Starter Set are only marginally more complex than B/X, and the adventure included is good for at least a half-dozen sessions. I wouldn't assume someone who is raising three young kids has the time or inclination to make up her own adventures right off the hop.
That true but the issue is not the complexity but the advice on "How to do things" when getting started. For now B/X has better material something that I expect will change when the Version 1 documents are released for Basic D&D.
B/X. I'm a fan of 5E (It's what I currently use for my own game), but B/X is a far better game for beginners.
I was kinda shocked by how kid/noob-unfriendly the dense 5E starter box set was. The ball on that one was dropped hard at some point.
Does it have to be D&D or is that just the general term the kids are using for RPGs? There are easier RPG to jump into than D&D if no one knows or cares about the brand name.
If it had to be some form of actual D&D I'd probably go with Labyrinth Lord... cheap and easy with lots of support.
I recommend the experience of off-loading the player workload to behind the GM screen and let the players imagine. So less rules niggling and more interaction with the imagined space. If I remember correctly dan buter, jibba jabba, and or daztur has had considerable success this way with new students young and old.
Given that, I would probably recommend either B/X or 5e Starter set (it's actually very solid!).
Of the two... depends. Some people resent getting old products that have no current relevance to the market (thanks for the Laser Disc player and rare discs...). But others appreciate the content and the medium more than being mechanically current for new product.
As for ease of play for children, and her GM preparation, probably B/X. It"s just more 'scribble it up and let's go!' than 5e. WotC has made a nod to older games, but it is still WotC in execution. If you want her to savor that liminal dream-space of childlike wonder before the competitive drive of legalistic rules interpretation pillow-faces it, I'd have to recommend B/X.
Quote from: Simlasa;801687Does it have to be D&D or is that just the general term the kids are using for RPGs? There are easier RPG to jump into than D&D if no one knows or cares about the brand name.
If it had to be some form of actual D&D I'd probably go with Labyrinth Lord... cheap and easy with lots of support.
If I had an extra copy, I would give her the d6 Star Wars Introductory Adventure Game. I consider it to be the best intro RPG ever written.
I recently ran B/X D&D for my 5 and 7 year old daughters. Though it is simpler than D&D5e and great because of that, I found that the underlying assumptions in D&D that I take for granted kept clashing with their concepts of fantasy based on various current media (and plenty of older media TBH). Clerics with no magic at level 1, wizards with just 1 spell and a rather limited spell list proved underwhelming, thieves who weren't very competent. It was also deadlier than I would have liked.
D&D5e on the other hand is likely cleave closer to a young person's conception of fantasy IMO. Especially if the players are in their early teens.
Do you know what needs to happen? Someone needs to take 5e's basic rules and put together an Introductory Module in the same vein as Mentzer with the first book in Basic. An actual walk-thru of chargen and dungeon crawl.
B/X has a great history of getting people into gaming – it seems to have worked out for a lot of us here.
I love B/X but I think 5e might just be the way to go, for the reasons Haffrung already stated. B/X has a lot of modules, which is nice, but 5e has modules in print.
Quote from: LibraryLass;801798B/X has a lot of modules, which is nice, but 5e has modules in print.
There's a bunch of Labyrinth Lord modules being published these days, and One Book Shelf has B/X modules in PDF.
Neither.
Here's my picks...
1) Print out a copy of Mazes & Minotaurs if they're into Greek myths - stuff like Percy Jackson, Clash of the Titans, Class of the Titans, etc from the last few years.
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/
2) The "new" Gamma World as a RPG hybrid because unlike 5e or B/X, GW looks like a game (board, pieces, dice) and its all about crazy chargen which is really fun for kids. You can grab the base box and the supplement boxes on eBay at cover price.
3) Buy them RIFTS and couple crazy splatbooks...and let the madness begin.
Quote from: jeff37923;801648I have a friend who has just started playing D&D who has 3 children (ages 13, 9, and 8) who all want to play D&D with her. She has very little experience with the game and I was going to give her a copy of a beginner's version of the game.
Now, I was going to give her a copy of the Basic D&D and Expert D&D books. However, I'd like to hear people's opinions on this because I considered the D&D 5E Basic download, but decided against it because it is not very conducive for self-teaching and I wanted that to be a large aspect of this.
So tell me if I am making a good choice here and let me know why it is or is not a good choice.
I think the B/X books provide a better all-around explanation for what the game is about and how to play it. So, probably a good call. If they like it and want to move on, perhaps then they can check out the 5e version.
Quote from: LibraryLass;801798I love B/X but I think 5e might just be the way to go, for the reasons Haffrung already stated. B/X has a lot of modules, which is nice, but 5e has modules in print.
Last check WOTC was still selling PDFs of what looked like a fair chunk of BX/BECMI modules?
I'd go with B/X.
Today? Now? In this day and age, I'd go with the 5e starter set. Don't get me wrong, I love B/X, but 5e is going to be easier to jump into.
Quote from: RPGPundit;802156Today? Now? In this day and age, I'd go with the 5e starter set. Don't get me wrong, I love B/X, but 5e is going to be easier to jump into.
The starter set is $12 from Amazon, which is hardly more than the PDFs of B/X on dndclassics. It definitely has that going for it. However, the Mentzer red box explains how to play D&D to a newbie better than anything ever, so it might be worth printing that part out.
You could just throw them a D&D 5th edition set and say, "Figure it out." I'm sure plenty of us learned the game in a similar manner.
Making them play 5e is tantamount to child abuse. Go with B/X.
May I suggest M81? It's a Microlite Hack of B/X.
Moldvay Basic is a smaller morsel to digest, and does not assume one already knows about D&D, and the 5e Basic download I've seen seemed nonetheless short on basic stuff such as monsters. Plus, an actual book (as opposed to pdf) has qualities that may be appreciated.
The presention of a first step, with Expert as a next, is pretty neat.
It would be excellent if you can also include a good starting scenario, whether published or of your own creation.
Something to check: As I recall, a spell description was missing from BX (Detect Invisible, I think). If that's the case in the printing you have, it would be nice to correct the omission.
It should be simple to provide pointers to Labyrinth Lord and 5e Basic online in addition to the Moldvay hardcopy. Why must it be either/or?
Quote from: Phillip;802997Something to check: As I recall, a spell description was missing from BX (Detect Invisible, I think). If that's the case in the printing you have, it would be nice to correct the omission.
It should be simple to provide pointers to Labyrinth Lord and 5e Basic online in addition to the Moldvay hardcopy. Why must it be either/or?
It doesn't have to be, but I want something that will allow her and her kids to self-teach most of the system so I want something simple and self-explanatory.
Quote from: Skywalker;801730I recently ran B/X D&D for my 5 and 7 year old daughters. Though it is simpler than D&D5e and great because of that, I found that the underlying assumptions in D&D that I take for granted kept clashing with their concepts of fantasy based on various current media (and plenty of older media TBH). Clerics with no magic at level 1, wizards with just 1 spell and a rather limited spell list proved underwhelming, thieves who weren't very competent. It was also deadlier than I would have liked.
D&D5e on the other hand is likely cleave closer to a young person's conception of fantasy IMO. Especially if the players are in their early teens.
I will second this, as it's what I found when I tried to run it for my own children. They just asked "why would anyone play something that can only cast one spell an entire day? That's crap."
5th edition Intro Set, and teach them to play the latest iteration of the game. If they're super keen for an older "feel", B/X or LL is the best there is, but I would caution them to increase the HP and start at level three.
"Per day" is an arbitrary correspondence that you can adjust to any other imaginary time frame as simply as saying so. Do the same for hp recovery (full recovery if you prefer that balance between mages and fighters) and you're gold.
The DM can have encounters turn up at any rate desired! The relative frequency compared with resource recovery is what sets the game anywhere from a cake walk to a meat grinder.
Quote from: Phillip;803046"Per day" is an arbitrary correspondence that you can adjust to any other imaginary time frame as simply as saying so. Do the same for hp recovery (full recovery if you prefer that balance between mages and fighters) and you're gold.
The DM can have encounters turn up at any rate desired! The relative frequency compared with resource recovery is what sets the game anywhere from a cake walk to a meat grinder.
You want either to give a beginning group rules that expect this sort of customization or to have them modify wildly rules that don't expect customization? Even if the rules chosen give good advice about making such modifications, that's going to be a difficult matter in practice.
Quote from: cranebump;802580May I suggest M81? It's a Microlite Hack of B/X.
Microlite81 (and Microlite74) aren't designed for people new to RPGs. They assume you already know the basics of how to play and do not explain anything about how to create a dungeon or a starting area. I really don't recommend them for total newbies. B/X (and BECMI for that matter) has lots of great advice for GMs. And unlike most other versions of D&D, it fast tracks DMing. No need to create an adventure or worry too much about "designing encounters". All a new GM has to do is draw up a dungeon, populate it randomly and start to play.
Quote from: jeff37923;803022It doesn't have to be, but I want something that will allow her and her kids to self-teach most of the system so I want something simple and self-explanatory.
Moldvay Basic
No matter how much people want it to be, 5e's Starter Box you buy, Basic pdf you download doesn't beat Moldvay for ease of use and above all, DM explanation and advice.
I think it should also be pointed out that we haven't seen the full Basic yet for 5e. We are still on version 0.2 with an extra pdf for a few DM things.
I'm curious to see how it fairs once its done as a coherent whole, which hopefully would be soon (they said once the 3 core were out, it would be updated, so maybe soon).
I'm sorry, but I think in terms of "learn how to play quickly and easily" the 5e Basic set beats the old basic set quite readily. You can jump right in with it and start playing and learn as you go.
It lacks the DM "How to" suggestions of BX. So. No. Its not as easy. That might change with an update. But currently Basic is less than BX in that area. It also lacks the "create a dungeon on the fly" system of B.
The Starter on the other hand may have those "how to" guides. But still waiting to get a copy so cant say there. Reviews seem to generally indicate that it is good for that pick up and run factor so something has to be right in it.
Quote from: Omega;804280It lacks the DM "How to" suggestions of BX. So. No. Its not as easy. That might change with an update. But currently Basic is less than BX in that area. It also lacks the "create a dungeon on the fly" system of B.
The Starter on the other hand may have those "how to" guides. But still waiting to get a copy so cant say there. Reviews seem to generally indicate that it is good for that pick up and run factor so something has to be right in it.
When I said "basic set", I in fact meant to say the Starter Set.
Quote from: jeff37923;801722If I had an extra copy, I would give her the d6 Star Wars Introductory Adventure Game. I consider it to be the best intro RPG ever written.
Your extra copy has got a lot of use, Jeff ;) Your generosity was well received. At least two dozens of kids around here have been introduced to roleplaying with it. :)
Quote from: RPGPundit;804272I'm sorry, but I think in terms of "learn how to play quickly and easily" the 5e Basic set beats the old basic set quite readily. You can jump right in with it and start playing and learn as you go.
I picked up the Starter Set to see if it could do the same job as Moldvay B/X and I have to disagree with you here. It really is not very newbie friendly in comparison.
Quote from: Imperator;804745Your extra copy has got a lot of use, Jeff ;) Your generosity was well received. At least two dozens of kids around here have been introduced to roleplaying with it. :)
That makes me smile. Thank you!
Well, to each their own, but it seems to me that some people are thinking more in terms of nostalgia than anything. The starter set lets you literally pick up the character sheets and start playing almost immediately.
There's no better way to learn how to play than to start playing.
Pundit is right on this one. Jumping in and playing being the best way to learn. Jumping in an playing with an experienced person running the game is optimal, IMHO. Hell, give me a d6 and a player, and I can take them through the very basics in a few minutes. If it's a rules set that supports noobs, though, 5E and Moldvay are both good choices. However, 5E's unified mechanic, with really no confusing sub-systems, plus text geared to introduce new players, PLUS a free set of rules and DMG online, make it a great introductory game. I'd leak Feats Traits, Bonds and Flaws and such in incrementally.
As an aside, how does the 5e PHB stand on its own for a dm experienced with previous editions?
Quote from: Phillip;805458As an aside, how does the 5e PHB stand on its own for a dm experienced with previous editions?
I ran it well, literally from the weekend it hit general release. I had dabbled in pre-2e, ran a lot of 2e, ran some 3e and read 4e.
The only thing I wasn't comfortable doing was heavy customizing, just because I wanted to see if there was some hidden maths I might accidentally break. Turns out that most "create a new ____" advice in the DMG is "eyeball it with other stuff...don't worry, you won't break anything".
Quote from: CRKrueger;803659Moldvay Basic
No matter how much people want it to be, 5e's Starter Box you buy, Basic pdf you download doesn't beat Moldvay for ease of use and above all, DM explanation and advice.
Yes. Ease of use and clear, concise language and easy-to-read layout.
I love 5e but the Starter was a misfire. Way too dense and cluttered.
Quote from: RPGPundit;805264Well, to each their own, but it seems to me that some people are thinking more in terms of nostalgia than anything. The starter set lets you literally pick up the character sheets and start playing almost immediately.
There's no better way to learn how to play than to start playing.
Q: When does play start?
A: at character generation. The last time I checked, B/X handles that pretty well.
Nastolgia, lol, wtf, is this 2008?
It will be years before 5e has the level of support B/X does- if it ever gets there at all.
Quote from: RandallS;803601Microlite81 (and Microlite74) aren't designed for people new to RPGs. They assume you already know the basics of how to play and do not explain anything about how to create a dungeon or a starting area. I really don't recommend them for total newbies. B/X (and BECMI for that matter) has lots of great advice for GMs. And unlike most other versions of D&D, it fast tracks DMing. No need to create an adventure or worry too much about "designing encounters". All a new GM has to do is draw up a dungeon, populate it randomly and start to play.
Agreed. I was thinking there was a player there to teach how to play.
But since I have you he, RS, I was wondering about the role of the mental combat bonus in M81. Wasn't sure how to apply it for most classes. I had thought both it and PCB might be useful in an alternative save system that delineates a physical and mental save, but I like the single save number, so I never bothered with it. So, what DO I use MCB for in M81?
P.S. I really appreciate the work you put into it. That's about the time I really got into D&D.
Quote from: Phillip;805458As an aside, how does the 5e PHB stand on its own for a dm experienced with previous editions?
Fine, the heart of the various mechanics is d20 roll high versus a target. 5e shares this with 3e and 4e. However it presented, especially the basic rules, like the best OSR rulesets. Short, to the point, and with the minimum of mechanics to get the job done.
The full game is in the basic rules, what missing are the options and expanded lists (like more spells, items, monsters, etc).
It doesn't play like 4e during combat. It more like classic D&D in the tempo of combat. However if you use the RAW rules then characters bounce back quickly between combats.
Quote from: Phillip;805458As an aside, how does the 5e PHB stand on its own for a dm experienced with previous editions?
Pretty damn well good really. The PHB has about all you need to bet up and running if you grab the monster PDF or dont mind alot of people-vs-people conflict and not much for monsters. The back of the book does have stats for Skeletons and Zombies though.
On the question of the 5e Starter Set vs Moldvay Basic, I think the question largely depends on where you see "play" as beginning, and how far you want the game to hold the group's hands.
If you see play as beginning with people actually doing things with their characters, then it's the Starter Set. A thin booklet to give you an idea of the rules, some pregens, and then a sandboxy campaign to last them until level 5.
If you see play as beginning with each player making their very own character that's all theirs, then it's Moldvay all the way. Simple chargen rules, and one level of a sample dungeon.
Beyond that, each has weaknesses. For the Starter Set, making the jump from pre-gens to one's own character is a substantial one. Not too big, necessarily, but certain substantial, given the number of moving parts. You have to choose the method of ability score generation, race, class, spells, and equipment packages. The chargen section of the Basic Rules alone is 55 printed pages.
With Moldvay, the character generation is a snap. But here the jump is on the DM's side. The sample dungeon is tiny, and there's really not that much help for the DM on how to expand from there. (When I used it to first start out, I couldn't make any sense of how I was supposed to use the cross-section map of the dungeon included under the map for Level 1.) The other consideration is that Moldvay pretty much locks you into the exploration mode of play. Which is fine, but it doesn't really help the DM expand into other modes of play.
Personally, I think you're rolling the dice either way if you just give a group some rules and hope they take to it on their own. With Moldvay, it's a 2-in-6 chance on a d6 that they'll pick it up. With the Starter Set, it's a DC 14 check.
I chose to give her copies of Moldvay Basic and Expert books, and the modules The Caves of Chaos, Palace of the Silver Princess, and The Isle of Dread. This way I can giver her the tools she needs to learn the basics of being a DM and being a Player on her own with her kids. I or her usual DM can give her advice and answer questions when needed, but this gets the ball rolling.
Once it comes in, I will give her a copy of the Star Wars Introductory Adventure Game.
Quote from: jeff37923;805538I chose to give her copies of Moldvay Basic and Expert books, and the modules The Caves of Chaos, Palace of the Silver Princess, and The Isle of Dread.
Solid.
Quote from: Iosue;805535On the question of the 5e Starter Set vs Moldvay Basic, I think the question largely depends on where you see "play" as beginning, and how far you want the game to hold the group's hands.
If you see play as beginning with people actually doing things with their characters, then it's the Starter Set. A thin booklet to give you an idea of the rules, some pregens, and then a sandboxy campaign to last them until level 5.
If you see play as beginning with each player making their very own character that's all theirs, then it's Moldvay all the way. Simple chargen rules, and one level of a sample dungeon.
I agree with this as well. For some, chargen is akin to setting up the board in monopoly--more prep work than actual play. For others, chargen is a big part of the game itself.
Last night my son had his first PC death (got eaten by sharks). He's relatively new to RPGs, and he picked up one of the pregens and they way they were structured (with up to level 5 info on the back) was great. It allowed him to pick up and play immediately, without needing to get familiar with the rules for that class (it was a cleric) first.
Quote from: jeff37923;804752I picked up the Starter Set to see if it could do the same job as Moldvay B/X and I have to disagree with you here. It really is not very newbie friendly
Well this Pundit character was on the payroll for 5th Ed. If this were a jury pool selection he'd be right out.
Quote from: Matt;806289Well this Pundit character was on the payroll for 5th Ed. If this were a jury pool selection he'd be right out.
I could certainly be accused of bias, it's true. But I had little or nothing to do with the particular choices that I think make the starter set really great to run from the get go, where beginners can get right into the action and learn by playing.