My players will only be sold on playing D&D if I re-skin the setting into something sorta historical. Rather, they're bored of generic fantasy settings set in pseudo medieval Europe.
No problem! That's actually not very challenging for me.
So far, the time period and place that interests everyone the most (including myself) is fantasy Ancient Greece.
I'm okay with doing my own research, but I wanted to see if anyone here has done something similar or has any recommended resources.
I have plenty of books on greek mythology and history, but I'm looking for gaming-related resources... and I'm sure that not all game books are equal in quality ;).
TL;DR: Would anyone like to share any advice or suggest some gaming books that would help me GM D&D in Ancient Greece?
I don't know the quality of any of these first hand, but
HR6 Age of Heroes (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/16920/HR6-Age-of-Heroes-Campaign-Sourcebook-2e?cPath=9730_9735&it=1) is the obvious first stop, and reviews are positive. Nicky Rea didn't do very well at co-managing the 3E Ravenloft line, but her Guide to Transylvania for the 2E Masque of the Red Death subsetting was pretty good.
HWR2 The Milenian Empire is apparently a Gazetteer for the quasi-Greek portion of the Hollow World.
Mythic Greece: The Age of Heroes is a Rolemaster/Fantasy HERO product (reportedly more FH than RM), and again, I can't speak to the quality, but while it's pricey, it's also an Aaron Allston production.
There was a 2e sourcebook for just that sort of thing if I recall correctly. I think there was a book for d20 that was ancients or something along those lines.
Maybe look for something in GURPS?
GURPS is sort of my go-to for sourcebooks... yeah, not d20, but...
Mazes and Minotaurs and all the fluff from the Minotaur Quarterly immediately come to mind.
How good is your German? the Chryseia setting for Midgard is a not overtly detailed but just quite nice fantastic-hellenistic setting with quite some potential . And if you have some money to waste, a few truly excellent adventure modules (Die Schwarze Galeere is okay, Ein Hauch von Heiligkeit and the follow-up campaign is just incredible).
Otherwise, there is a Gurps book (of course there is). And it is comprehensive and quite good (of course it is) and a bit dry to read, and more of a tool box than a concrete setting (naturally).
Your prayers to Olympus have been answered!
MAZES & MINOTAURS
http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/
It's free.
It's got lots of free supplements.
It plays absolutely awesome!
Doesn't Pundit have Lords of Olympus?
Holy crap! Thanks guys and/or gals. This is a great start.
I was playing a fantasy Greece campaign recently, and it is one of my favourite periods in general. For the books I sadly mostly know the Polish researches, so I'll be hard pressed to give advice. If you can find translations of works by Świderkówna, I highly recommend reading them - they are about Hellenic not as much Classical period, but we know much more about that period either way, and I doubt many players'll take notice if you give in mindsets from those periods every now and then.
My advice'd be:
1) Are you going to have Ancient Greece with fantasy elements, or Fantasy Ancient Greece? There's a good amount of difference here, as one game'll require a tad more research and grounded approach, but also gives players even greater ease of knowing the world and for you a ready timeline of events, but on the other hand - a risk of history buffs going wild over the inconsistencies or "inconsistencies". The other approach lets you go more wild, but you risk the history buffs ranting about why we're not just playing normal Greece.
2) Go wild with city states. We only really know political systems of two states in great detail - Athens and Sparta, and look how different they were. Remember the Sybaris, the great decadent and rich city, Corinth, the city of sly merchants, Thebes, independent and regal, Megalopolis, famously big, Ephes and Milet, the birthplaces of mathematics and proto - philosophy. Also remember that Ancient Greece's Classical period richest cities were actually colonies in Magna Graecia and Asia - don't make a mistake of locking yourself in the Greece = Achaia and Peloponnese.
If you are playing Fantasy Ancient Greece, do so especially. States ruled by (mad) demigods, states ruled by actual gods, states with absurd laws, secluded city - states where everyone's a "maniac", cities where laws seem innocent enough but turn deadly on visitors, cities ran by rulers who put Paranoia's computer to shame, cities where everything seems great until you actually try living there...go nuts with your imagination. The best thing about city states is that you can have much experimentation with various political ideas, on a relatively small terrain - lots of states, not a lot of cities to be filled in those states.
3) Remember about outside influences. There were various incursions of "barbarians" from the north and east and west into the Greece, not to mention interactions with Persians, Frigians, Iberian Celts, Italians and Etrusks, Carthaginians and Phoenicians, Thracians, and also various mountain tribes that were half - uncivilised - really, too many to count, to name Aetols as the most succesful of the whole bunch. In fantasy Ancient Greece...oh boy. I myself went with Persians as hobgoblins, Darius riding a dragon into battle.
4) Dedicate a time period, and important event that the game'll most likely be centred about it. The suggestion'd of course be, by me, times of great upheaval, but not necessarily.
* Fall of Achaeans proper and Mycenese culture, so "classic" Mythic Greece - war for Troy, Dor invasion. Might want to look at, interstingly enough, Pendragon to see the general idea, or draw from Arthurian legend there - just replace Saxons with Dors and Anglo - Romans with Achaeans.
* Colonisation period - various interactions with "barbaric" (some actually much more civilised) civilisations of Etrusks, Iberian Celts, Frigians/Hittites (depends on a period), Phoenicians, Egyptians, Crimean folks.
* First Persian War - my personal favourite. Mighty empire on the horizon, it starts out "safe" with the rebellion of the Asian City States, ending gods know where.
* Second Persian War - another safe bet, especially if you switch off your inner historian and take 300's Monsters of Persian Army up to eleven. Or surprise your players with Xerxes less of a god - complex maniac, and more as how Persians saw him at the time - a liberator from another civil war between the priesthood (the Magi - could actually make them literal mages here, necromancers perhaps), who went overconfident with power, a kind of darker Henry the VIII with less wife cutting.
* Peloponnese War - A great war between two mightiest political powers of Greece proper, with everyone throwing their lot with them in an everchanging balance of politics. You think GoT was full of backstabbing? Try that with 40 - 50 city states rather than 6 - 8 biggest aristocratic families. And of course, the threat of Persians in the back, ever present and willing to meddle in policies of their neighbours.
* Macedonian Supremacy and Greece's Last Stand - the campaign of Philip the Second and his son to break the City States, especially worthwhile for Spartan and Athenian attempts at trying to keep the old traditions alive. A kind of "fin de sicle" feel for the Greeks.
*Hellenic Age, Wars of Successor - the last (but perhaps not least) of my three favourite periods. The great dominance of Greek Culture, yet the Greece proper is reduced to mostly dreaming of it's former glory, with some raisings about every now and then, though the dream of "Freedom of Hellens" will only ultimately cause Roman subjugation of Greece. A very worthwhile note - Spartan revival. But of course, the main course is quite simple - ambitious generals, trying to unite Alexander's empire or carve out the largest piece of it for their dynasty.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;775254Mythic Greece: The Age of Heroes is a Rolemaster/Fantasy HERO product (reportedly more FH than RM), and again, I can't speak to the quality, but while it's pricey, it's also an Aaron Allston production.
I endorse Mythic Greece: Age of Heroes. I used it for a campaign I ran using Runequest 2 for the system and converted the Fantasy HERO stats to Runequest. I thought the supplement was good and had some good Heroic* Bronze Age culture and ideas. I'm not familiar enough with D&D 5E to say how well it would work for that.
* Heroic in the sense of the sorts of things that characters do in the Illiad, the Odyssey, the Argonautica and other tales of Bronze Age Greek heroes and in a setting where the gods and mythical beings are real.
Play Tyranny of Dragons or whatever in 5e until Mythic Greece for RQ6 comes out next year. :D
Or yeah, Mazes and Minotaurs.
This is one of those things I have to do before I die. I just have to find the right system/supplement and time.
My suggestion is you read Gene Wolfe's Soldier/Latro series. You could probably get the bulk of your setting information just by taking notes. They're ridiculously well-researched.
Quote from: Harshael;775339This is one of those things I have to do before I die. I just have to find the right system/supplement and time.
My suggestion is you read Gene Wolfe's Soldier/Latro series. You could probably get the bulk of your setting information just by taking notes. They're ridiculously well-researched.
This. Just be aware of all the (intentional) mistranslations and misunderstandings Wolfe introduces. E.g.
Spartiatai doesn't actually mean "rope-makers."
Quote from: Dan Vincze;775360This. Just be aware of all the (intentional) mistranslations and misunderstandings Wolfe introduces. E.g. Spartiatai doesn't actually mean "rope-makers."
That's just the fun of reading Wolfe.
Quote from: Gene Wolfe, The Shadow of the TorturerI visited the Bear Tower and struck up such friendships as I could with the beast handlers there . . . at some point in life each brother takes a lioness or bear-sow in marriage, after which he shuns human women.
I've always wanted to run a classical period campaign, with city states and their different ideas about what constitutes "civilization" driving the plot.
There's lots of interesting conflicts, i.e. democracy vs totalitarian states; the question of slavery and who is fully human, and the sense that the world is new and all these ideas about how people live together are put forth and tried out the first time (by philosopher kings in togas, no less).
Add divine intervention by tempramental gods and all sorts of mythical beasts and you have a pretty cool fantasy setting here ...
Read the "Taenarum" on http://dreamsinthelichhouse.blogspot.com/ to see a guy currently doing old-school-style megadungeon in fantastic-ancient-greece D&D.
Search for "Mercenary, Liberator, Tyrant" on the ACKS forums to see Kiero (sometimes poster here? I think there may have been discussion on this board as well) doing a no-magic very-historically-flavored Ancient Greece game.
This being a D&D pseudo-greek setting don't rule out Hercules The Legendary Journeys.:)
In most games, I bailed on d20, class based systems a long time ago.
But when I wrote my Bronze age game, set in the end of the dark ages of Greece (when Iron is just really starting use), and used a d20 variant specifically because the ultra heroic time period, with a real difference between the mortals and those touched by the gods, matched well.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;775623This being a D&D pseudo-greek setting don't rule out Hercules The Legendary Journeys.:)
Or the new Hercules movie. Which is suprisingly good.
OOH!
Don't forget you have the most logical use of Cavers of Thracia ever in a campaign. That's worth something right there.
Quote from: Arkansan;775255There was a 2e sourcebook for just that sort of thing if I recall correctly. I think there was a book for d20 that was ancients or something along those lines.
This one?
(http://www.waynesbooks.com/images/graphics/hr5.jpg)
I think there is one other...
There was a few in that series. Thanks for posting that though because it jogged my memory. The one I was thinking of was called Age of Heroes, you can get it from drivethrurpg.
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/16920/HR6-Age-of-Heroes-Campaign-Sourcebook-2e?it=1
Heroes of Hellas is nice for a mythic view of Greece...it uses the BoL system but is easily mined for D&D.
Quote from: LordVreeg;775761OOH!
Don't forget you have the most logical use of Cavers of Thracia ever in a campaign. That's worth something right there.
Converting The Caverns of Thracia to Mazes & Minotaurs is full of win.
Regardless of whatever system you use, check out the Mazes & Monsters adventures and resources. Again, all free with free sauce.
They have some kind of megadungeon/mega-adventure too.
Rincewind1's advice is good. "Ancient Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece)" when and where? On the historical side of things, we're talking a span of at least a thousand years, from the Minoan/Mycenaean Age/Greek Dark Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages) to the beginning of the end of the Hellenistic Er (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_period)a and the rise of Roman dominion. Political organisation, economy, social mores, technology, everything is different depending on the when. The later you draw inspiration from, the more important are the "little men" as aristocrats would call them - though whether that means the hoplite class of affluent, yeoman farmers or the actual commoners who might be rowers as their only means to contribute to the defense of their city, depends on when you're talking about.
Hellas proper wasn't just the Greek mainland either, but included the western coast of Turkey and hundreds of colonies scattered around the Mediterranean seaboard. Colonies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity)are a rich source of roleplaying ideas, not least the clash/fusion of Greek culture with that of the native peoples in the region.
Two critical notions of Greekness are the language itself and citizenship. People would just you on how well you spoke Greek, "barbarians" were those who spoke it haltingly or with a thick accent. Citizenship was the property from which all public rights, to speak in assembly, to carry arms and serve the city, to vote and so on flowed. You had to be the child of a citizen, or voted the citizenship by the ruling body (or tyrant) to acquire those rights. Foreigners (anyone not a citizen) had few public rights.
Slavery is also a big deal and something that should feature heavily if you're going to give it an authentic feel. Loss of freedom was always a risk when taking to the seas, or if you survived a battle on the losing side.
Religion is another big thing. You have polytheism, but everyone tends to worship everything, calling on whichever god(s)/hero/ancestor they think will aid them in a moment of need. You appeal to them for the success of your action, and/or give thanks after the fact for a success. There's none of the Judeo-Christian concept of forgiveness or salvation or preparing yourself for the afterlife (though there can be moral pollution caused by certain actions which needs to be purged). Hubris is another thing to consider in this context, that the gods punish those who overreach. Linked into this are festivals and such. There's no weekdays or weekends, no concept of the "week" at all. But there are plenty of festivals, linked to religious cults, city traditions, popular dates or personages and so on, so there are lots of effective rest days. Priests aren't a caste apart from everyone else (except in places like Egypt), they're usually aristocrats in a special "by invitation only" club called a cult. Being a priest is a role you take on for a ritual occasion, not a career.
If you really want to make it feel Greek, engage with the maritime focus. Give the PCs a ship, perhaps a small one like a triakonter (which has thirty oars on a single tier) to start with and a loyal crew. Most trips are coasting - going from one point on the coast to another, possibly without leaving sight of land. They can then upgrade themselves to a bigger ship. Boarding actions are great set-piece combats with a real stake - not only life and death, but huge wealth if you can take someone else's ship. I had a thread with a ship and it's crew (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=30049) as the centre of a premise before.
Other gentlemanly pursuits to consider: hunting (some men would judge your worth by how well you hunted), exercise and sporting competition (I started a thread on this (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?t=30208)), how well you host a gathering and navigate a party of guests. The Greeks really weren't like the dour, cynical Romans in many important respects.
A big way to make it not feel faux-medieval is to change the equipment. There's no mail at all. "Heavy" armour is bronze plates - a cuirass, helmet, greaves, arm and thigh plates and a big shield. To lighten up you might change the cuirass from bronze to leather or linen and drop the arm and thigh plates. Or wear a leather-backed-scale shirt (nomadic nobles had full suits of scale) or lamellar.
Shields are really, really important, moreso than armour. Some warriors would make do with nothing more than a shield for protection, at most adding a helmet if they could afford it. The shield also carries notions of honour for a Greek, after all it was heavy and cumbersome and would inhibit fast movement. A coward threw away his shield, a brave man kept his facing front and held, protecting his comrades. That's also important, with a big circular shield like the aspis, a third of it's surface protects the man to your left, reinforcing the collective ethos of the phalanx. Furthermore, the rightmost guy in the rank is unprotected on his weapon side - he has to be the best warrior in that rank because he's most exposed.
Most swords are shortswords, there are very few long blades except in the hands of cavalrymen (and no two handed swords). The spear is the noblest weapon and lots of people use javelins (both of which can break!). Most bows known to Greeks are shortbows, and the sling is often deadlier (if using cast lead bullets, rather than stones/pebbles); composite bows come from the east.
Make sure wrestling and boxing are worth something in the game, because athletes and warriors practised them and could find ways to apply them to armed as well as unarmed combat.
If you want to read some well-researched historical fiction, check out Christian Cameron's The Long War series for the Greco-Persian Wars, or Tyrant for the Hellenistic era.
Quote from: Spinachcat;776218Regardless of whatever system you use, check out the Mazes & Monsters adventures and resources. Again, all free with free sauce.
They have some kind of megadungeon/mega-adventure too.
You mean
Mazes & Minotaurs, of course (ah, shall we ever be free from this curse ?).
I second Kiero's comment about the critical nature of a shield in actual historical use. As important as armor, not as a little add on.
Quote from: LordVreeg;776295I second Kiero's comment about the critical nature of a shield in actual historical use. As important as armor, not as a little add on.
Indeed, I'd go so far as to say change the way they work in the system so that shields are much, much more significant, mechanically. And by way of rebalancing, armour is less significant.
That's what I did for my Hellenistic era rules for ACKS, your choice of shield made a really big difference to AC, especially against missiles. Armour didn't really get beyond the values for medium armour under the regular system.
Talking some more of armour, a Greek gentleman-hoplite or gentleman-cavalryman didn't go about armoured all the time. They often had a slave (
skeuophoros) or younger relative a son, cousin, nephew, whatever (
hypaspist) responsible for armouring them*, carrying their helmet and shield, spare weapons and so on - just like a medieval squire. The role of shieldbearer, was an important aspect of the cultural approach to warfare. Only mercenaries tended to manage without attendant support, often because they couldn't afford to keep another mouth fed, clothed and armed. Along with more "professional" troops later like the Macedonian phalangites and later Roman legionaries who were supposed to carry their own gear.
If you have a maritime-centred game, it's even more important. Not only is armour uncomfortable when going about shipboard activities, it's also a liability if you fall overboard. Marines only armour up when expecting trouble.
This means scope for much more varied combats where it isn't always the PCs fully tooled up with all their best gear all the time. Often they might be completely unarmoured (or even naked) but for their shield and weapons, or using their cloak wrapped around the forearm as a makeshift shield.
It also introduces that question of how urgent a combat is; do I stop and armour up properly before engaging in battle, or pitch in now and deal with the threat before my friends are overwhelmed? Getting armed and armoured up is also a pretty bold statement of intent. You don't usually go into the home of another person tooled up, it's rude as much as anything else.
It's using societal expectations and such to liven things up and turn relatively mundane sources of threat into potentially dangerous ones, or else a real tactical decision about how much you prepare.
*Which segues into another topic - henchmen/hirelings and other allied NPCs. I don't now if 5th edition has rules for them, but they can really enrich the game in a way I'd never appreciated before I played ACKS (in my "old school" days we never had any). PCs should be aiming to become people of significance who attract followers as their exploits grow in renown.
As to actual gaming resources, Mazes and Minotaurs has been mentioned, but really almost anything written by Paul Elliott is good. I particularly prize Warlords of Alexander (http://romequest.fronteriza.es/Warlords.pdf), which is set in the Hellenistic era and explains why mercenaries of the age were very much like adventurers in the traditional fantasy setup.
Also Hellenistic is the GURPS netbook Philos Basilikos (http://web.archive.org/web/20061229072721/www.angelwerks.com/GURPS/basiliko2PR.PDF), which has a neat section at the end explaining "how to be a Greek" and also similar ones for Roman, Kelt and Phoenician.
Quote from: Marleycat;775283Doesn't Pundit have Lords of Olympus?
LoO has a LOT of material on Greek Mythology (more than any other RPG book ever, as far as I know), but hardly anything on greek society, culture, history, or geography. It would be a great sourcebook for gods and legends but not for the rest of what would be needed for such a setting.
The Milenian Empire book for Hollow World is quite good; and I think there was one of those green-cover 2e books about Alexander's Greece, if I recall correctly.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;775254Mythic Greece: The Age of Heroes is a Rolemaster/Fantasy HERO product (reportedly more FH than RM), and again, I can't speak to the quality, but while it's pricey, it's also an Aaron Allston production.
I have it, though I haven't touched it in a long time. It was quite good as a resource.
Wasn't there also a GURPS Ancient Greece?
Quote from: Kiero*Which segues into another topic - henchmen/hirelings and other allied NPCs. I don't now if 5th edition has rules for them, but they can really enrich the game in a way I'd never appreciated before I played ACKS (in my "old school" days we never had any). PCs should be aiming to become people of significance who attract followers as their exploits grow in renown.
Yes, I allowed my players to play their henchmen, as they were very limited as to how many they could have. Henchmen earned 1/4 experience.
My d20/OSR/Ancient Med hack had Fighting man, Scholar, Priest, Rogue, and the Orator. The Orator was a charisma based class, the only one able to have henchmen early on, which meant a 5th level orator might have (depending on the charisma bonus) 2-4 henchman working for him, a fighting man might have one, and no one else has any. So the Orator was a poor fighter, a mediocre rogue, a lousy caster, but he had followers.
Quote from: Omega;776054This one?
(http://www.waynesbooks.com/images/graphics/hr5.jpg)
I think there is one other...
That's the roman one, but I was sure there was a greek one too.. or did I dream it?
The roman one was pretty decent, but GURPS Imperial Rome, and Bedrock's "Agents of Gaius" are both somewhat more useful for Roman play.
Quote from: RPGPundit;777269That's the roman one, but I was sure there was a greek one too.. or did I dream it?
There was. It was the next one after the Roman one; HR6
Age of Heroes. I linked to the PDF in the second post on this thread. :)
Quote from: LordVreeg;777160Yes, I allowed my players to play their henchmen, as they were very limited as to how many they could have. Henchmen earned 1/4 experience.
My d20/OSR/Ancient Med hack had Fighting man, Scholar, Priest, Rogue, and the Orator. The Orator was a charisma based class, the only one able to have henchmen early on, which meant a 5th level orator might have (depending on the charisma bonus) 2-4 henchman working for him, a fighting man might have one, and no one else has any. So the Orator was a poor fighter, a mediocre rogue, a lousy caster, but he had followers.
I treat them as backup PCs; if for some reason the player's main PC is out of action (this happened when one was wounded and left bedridden after an attack), they can play them instead. Otherwise the players run them in combat and I speak for them. I don't track XP in my game, so the only consideration is that they need paying.
My players went into the retinue game with gusto - everyone took a maximum complement from the outset (which is 4 +/- Charisma modifier in ACKS - everyone had a bonus). It mean the "party" had over 30 people in it, and a horse-herd of almost 100 animals, with remounts and pack animals. That proved a tempting target in and of itself when they were travelling.
Quote from: Kiero;777415I treat them as backup PCs; if for some reason the player's main PC is out of action (this happened when one was wounded and left bedridden after an attack), they can play them instead. Otherwise the players run them in combat and I speak for them. I don't track XP in my game, so the only consideration is that they need paying.
My players went into the retinue game with gusto - everyone took a maximum complement from the outset (which is 4 +/- Charisma modifier in ACKS - everyone had a bonus). It mean the "party" had over 30 people in it, and a horse-herd of almost 100 animals, with remounts and pack animals. That proved a tempting target in and of itself when they were travelling.
To your point, we also let the Henchmen become the next PC, which happened on quite a few occasions....and you were not adventuring, you were expeditioning. Happens to me all the time.
Quote from: Kiero;777415It mean the "party" had over 30 people in it, and a horse-herd of almost 100 animals, with remounts and pack animals. That proved a tempting target in and of itself when they were travelling.
It would be tempting for tribes and kings. Probably scare the hell out of villages and villagers and your run of the mill bandits.
I had to remind myself that encounters need not automatically scale up to the party size and strength in my current game. I realized on their last excursion the party was large enough and well armed enough that many bandits were hiding from them.
Quote from: LordVreeg;777556To your point, we also let the Henchmen become the next PC, which happened on quite a few occasions....and you were not adventuring, you were expeditioning. Happens to me all the time.
This was more of a temporary arrangement, unless the PC was dead, of course. There's no magic in this game, so death is a very real possibility if you get caught unprepared. The fight that led to the wound was a surprise attack on their employers' estate and they'd run into battle with just shield and weapon.
Quote from: Bren;777572It would be tempting for tribes and kings. Probably scare the hell out of villages and villagers and your run of the mill bandits.
I had to remind myself that encounters need not automatically scale up to the party size and strength in my current game. I realized on their last excursion the party was large enough and well armed enough that many bandits were hiding from them.
They were in southern Gallia in 300BC, so not so many kings around the place any more.
There was an attempt on them by one of the Celto-Ligurian tribes, but that's because they'd been paid to attack them, and promised they could keep the horses. They had more than double the number of the PCs and their retinues, but it wasn't enough. The PCs took their chief prisoner after the fight and ransomed him off a little later.
Quote from: Kiero;777588They were in southern Gallia in 300BC, so not so many kings around the place any more.
I usually call the head of a clan a chief and the head of a tribe a king. By that definition, there would be plenty of kings available. A tribe was, to my way of thinking, about the right size for a group to consider a wandering band the size of the PCs and their entourage to be a target rather than a threat. Smaller groups should be worried that the PCs are going to raid their crannog or hill fort.
Quote from: Bren;777616I usually call the head of a clan a chief and the head of a tribe a king. By that definition, there would be plenty of kings available. A tribe was, to my way of thinking, about the right size for a group to consider a wandering band the size of the PCs and their entourage to be a target rather than a threat. Smaller groups should be worried that the PCs are going to raid their crannog or hill fort.
By this time most of the tribes of southern Gallia had elected magistrates, rather than hereditary kings, so again not really.
But yes, a Carthaginian warlord who didn't want the PCs arriving at their destination did hire a whole tribe (or at least a significant chief in a tribe and his warband) to attack them. They figured outnumbering them 2:1 and local advantage with an ambush would be enough. Turned out that when the group you are attacking is well-armoured and contains a lot of experienced fighters (and some proper cavalry), it isn't enough.
They'd been hosted by one chief of the Insubres prior to that, I'd imagine that settled a lot of nerves, given the Keltoi PC exchanged guest friendship and promised to host his son if he visited.
Quote from: Kiero;777619By this time most of the tribes of southern Gallia had elected magistrates, rather than hereditary kings, so again not really.
Who said anything about
hereditary kings?
I'm not planning on having an argument with you about the difference between an elected king and an elected Vergobret or whatever the southern tribes called their ruling magistrates. For the purposes of the point
I was making, there is no functional difference between the two.
Quote from: Bren;777630Who said anything about hereditary kings?
No one, but now you're splitting hairs. They had elected magistrates who ruled for a year, and had a council of elders acting as a constraint on them. That's not a king, nor were they called kings.
Lots of great advice, thanks folks.
The next step for me is to pick which classes and races would "fit" such a campaign.
Races
My knee-jerk reaction would be to only allow humans.
However, I thought about re-skinning certain races. Examples: Elves as Amazons, Tieflings as Satyrs... Not sure about this. I can't figure out where Dwarves and Halflings fit. Dragonborn are right out!
Classes
Most of them appear to be fine except for the magic users. The only "magical" specialists were Oracles, so unless I only have Wizards able to cast Divination spells... ergh...
I thought about letting Warlocks because of the possibility of Pacts with all kinds of mythical creatures. However...
I may just allow Clerics as the "magical" class.
What do you think?
Quote from: Necrozius;782281Races
My knee-jerk reaction would be to only allow humans.
However, I thought about re-skinning certain races. Examples: Elves as Amazons, Tieflings as Satyrs... Not sure about this. I can't figure out where Dwarves and Halflings fit. Dragonborn are right out!
There are also Centaurs, which could become the heavy bruisers of your setting (similar to half-orcs).
Nymphs are another possibility. The forest gnome template with a druidic cantrip instead of Minor Illusion could work quite well.
Quote from: Necrozius;782281Classes
Most of them appear to be fine except for the magic users. The only "magical" specialists were Oracles, so unless I only have Wizards able to cast Divination spells... ergh...
I thought about letting Warlocks because of the possibility of Pacts with all kinds of mythical creatures. However...
I may just allow Clerics as the "magical" class.
What do you think?
Bards should be in. There is Orpheus after all.
As for other examples for magic-users in the myths, we have Circe and Medea.
Quote from: Necrozius;782281Lots of great advice, thanks folks.
The next step for me is to pick which classes and races would "fit" such a campaign.
Races
My knee-jerk reaction would be to only allow humans.
However, I thought about re-skinning certain races. Examples: Elves as Amazons, Tieflings as Satyrs... Not sure about this. I can't figure out where Dwarves and Halflings fit. Dragonborn are right out!
Be bold and go human only.
Re-skinning races as cultures is always cheesy at best, and downright offensive at worst. Maybe put together culture packages which give a little set of bonuses/extra skills/whatever to flavour those choices. Nothing abuse-able, just something that makes there a clear choice.
Quote from: Necrozius;782281Classes
Most of them appear to be fine except for the magic users. The only "magical" specialists were Oracles, so unless I only have Wizards able to cast Divination spells... ergh...
I thought about letting Warlocks because of the possibility of Pacts with all kinds of mythical creatures. However...
I may just allow Clerics as the "magical" class.
What do you think?
Have Wizards only able to cast Divination spells. Let Warlocks be the only arcane magic using class.
Make sure there are Clerics who aren't actually priests (ie higher-up members of the mystery cults to a god/hero/city/place), and priests who aren't actually Clerics. Being the chosen of a god shouldn't necessarily have to do with being involved in the cult.
Quote from: Skyrock;782286There are also Centaurs, which could become the heavy bruisers of your setting (similar to half-orcs).
Nymphs are another possibility. The forest gnome template with a druidic cantrip instead of Minor Illusion could work quite well.
Bards should be in. There is Orpheus after all.
As for other examples for magic-users in the myths, we have Circe and Medea.
I had scholars and Orators.
Quote from: Kiero;782401Re-skinning races as cultures is always cheesy at best, and downright offensive at worst.
Yeah I wasnt intending on replacing fantasy races with real world cultures. More like replacing them with other fantasy races from Greek myth. Like tieflings with satys and half-orcs with centaurs.
Great thread - this has me thinking of an ancient Mesopotamia and Mediterranean campaign with 5e (damn you ... haven't I already started a BFRPG campaign?). One of my players is a history teacher and the idea of a Bronze Age-ish game ... very exciting.
One rough idea is to hack the idea of the Rise of Tiamat as a plot idea. Seems like cultists of Tiamat prowling around Babylon seems about right.
Also:
Quote from: KieroCurrently running: Tyche's Favourites, a historical ACKS campaign set around Massalia in 300BC.
Great read / resource.
Quote from: Molotov;783622Also:
Great read / resource.
Thank you! I'm ever so slowly writing it up into a proper supplement for ACKS.
One could do much worse than to obtain the AD&D Age Of Heroes sourcebook, and limit classes and casting according to its guidelines. GURPS Greece is for the GM's education.
Quote from: AteTheHeckUp;783854One could do much worse than to obtain the AD&D Age Of Heroes sourcebook, and limit classes and casting according to its guidelines. GURPS Greece is for the GM's education.
Thanks for this suggestion. I checked it out on Scribd and liked it enough to search for a copy on eBay. Got it for 20 bucks with shipping. I'm okay with that: it's a nice, compact resource for the subject with all of the relevant info that I wanted in one place.
My suggestion is to have fighters split between normal fighters and noble fighters, where their chosen weapons and fighting styles differ. Something like a paladin versus a fighter.
Additionally, lump wizards in with clerics. The split between arcane and divine doesn't have a strong history in ancient Greece. If you used magic, it was divinely inspired.
Suggestion: cleric, wizard are one class with one class list and one favored sphere, or equivalent concept depending on their favored god. You can give them armor or not, whatever you decide.
Fighters, thieves, barbarians and nobles all make sense. It you want a ranger class, restrict it to women and call it amazons.
Don't allow turn undead or modify it so everyone rebukes rather than turns/destroys.
Definitely all humans.
No centaurs or satyrs? Aww.
Quote from: Will;784111No centaurs or satyrs? Aww.
I'll most likely make Half-Orcs into Centaurs, Tieflings into Satyrs, Elves into Nymphs/Dryads. Maybe even Dwarves into Minotaurs (the fluff and mechanics stay the same, just the appearance changes). Or something like that.
That is, unless my group is totally cool with sticking with humans, which I know that a few are.
I actually have centaurs in the fantasy setting I'm tinkering with.
One of the things I'm REALLY appreciating with 5e is that size isn't a huge deal. OK, Large, double pulling/carry capacity, big woopdedoo.
You can then choose to add whatever other bits you want. (I gave them speed 40, with some handwaving that they aren't as well balanced as a horse or a horse with a rider, so)
(http://www.conceptart.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=1735445&d=1362433644)
(That said, I'm a big fan of human-only stuff, so)
Quote from: Scott Anderson;784108It you want a ranger class, restrict it to women and call it amazons.
That doesn't make any sense, what about all the peasants and other lower class rural types?
What about Adonis, Aktaion, Ankaios, Broteas or Orion? There are a lot of male hunter types in Greek mythology.
At least Orion in the version of the favoured companion of Artemis could make for a viable model for male hunter with druidic tricks.
Quote from: Will;784113I actually have centaurs in the fantasy setting I'm tinkering with.
Who is that artist?
No idea, I did a bunch of searching online and that was a contest entry somewhere.
Yeah, I have a personal setting document that I can never publish because of art like that. Ah well. ;)