I have a nostalgic fondness for B/X, which I started playing in 1982.  5e D&D is too superhero for me.  I want to get back into D&D.

Looking for:
-Running a game where players rely LESS on superpower abilities and MORE on creative solutions to problems.  Having a few tricks is fine.
-Darker atmosphere leaning (not Mork Borg, though)
-Death is more frequent.  Not a meat grinder game, but not a fan of multiple death saves.  I'm not out to get them, but the dice tell a story too and if you are unlucky or make bad choices, your story ends.
-Magic is present, but dangerous to the caster.
-On a scale of 1 is hard candy, 10 is extra crunchy, I'm aiming for 3 with a d20 system.

I know that I could take 5e or some other set of rules and heavily modify them.  Looking for something already made that has been play tested.

I am intrigued by 5e hardcore mode, Five Torches Deep, and Low Fantasy Gaming.  Haven't tried any of them yet.
Any of these or others seem like a good fit?  Why?

Have you considered Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (2e is what I'd suggest)?

HappyDaze, what can you tell me about it?  Have you played it? I don't know anything about it.

Here is what I had to say about Five Torches Deep, from the "D&D derivatives" post

QuoteOne game that I have played is Five Torches Deep.  I recently ran a mini campaign of four sessions.  The rules are a 5e framework.  For stats you roll 3d6 straight down the line and swap 2 if you are human.  If you want to be an elf, dwarf, or halfling you get certain stats set at 13c and roll 2d6+ 4 for the others.  I made everyone play a human.

There are four classes. Warrior, mage, thief, and zealot.  At third level you get to choose an archetype which gets you a special ability. 

Warriors can be: Barbarians, Fighters, rangers.
Thieves: Assassin, Bard (no spells, you're just a charming musician), and rogue (a standard thief type)
Mages: Wizard, Warlock, sorcerer
Zealot: Druid, cleric, paladin

The special abilities aren't overwhelming.  Paladins for example can choose Martial Weapon Proficiency.  Or they get an "oath" that helps them against evil creatures like undead and demons.

Sorcerers can do extra damage with fire (if they choose that ability), or get armored skin, etc. think Dragon hericage sorcerer from 5e, but weaker.

Everything is weaker.  Hit points are lower, and weapons do slightly more damage.  And there's a chart you roll when you get to 0hp. No "three death saves" like in 5e.  You might lose a limb, or some stat points. It is gritty.

Magic is limited.  There are only 5 spells for each level, and two types of spells: divine, and arcane.  A spell caster can cast a spell as much as they want, but they have to roll each time and beat a certain number.  If you fail the roll, you can't use that spell any more that day.  Also there is a spell fumble table and you could nuke your whole party if you are really unlucky. 

Monsters are very easy.  They have a system they call "monster math" with suggested hp, ac, attack bonuses and damge.  They give you a list of special powers monsters can have, and you can choose from it like a buffet.  Just plug in what you want. 

You can also convert mosters from other editions. 5e critters will need to be nerfed or they'll wipe out a party. I used B/X monsters and it worked out just fine. 

Thereis a random dungeon generator in the book thatbuses a rubick's cube.  I did not use it.

I also nerfed weapon damage since most of the opposition were humans who carried weapons. 

My players liked the game but said casters were too weak.  A level 1 caster gets 1 first-level spell.  Just like the old days.  Except you could cast it until you fizzled, and then you could fry your friends.  I house ruled that the spell fumble chart would only be used if you rolled a nat "1". 

I thought the game needed more spells and they should be able to be swapped out

You say you have a fondness for B/X.  Old School Essentials is B/X.

Quote from: Vic99 on July 06, 2021, 09:46:22 AM
HappyDaze, what can you tell me about it?  Have you played it? I don't know anything about it.

Rather than superheroes, WFRP focuses on relatively average people (starting characters in my last game included a servant/stablehand and a university student) that are thrown into dangerous situations. They are not out to save the world; they are trying to survive (and, maybe, get rich too).

The setting is a dark fantasy Europe-like world with late middle-ages to early renaissance tech and risky magic. There are D&D-like races and monsters, but less monsters than in D&D. Many of your opponents will be other people and their plots.

System is % based and characters do not really start out all that skilled. Late game can be quite different with Knights of the Inner Circle and Wizard Lords running around, but survival to that point is far from guaranteed.

Quote from: Vic99 on July 06, 2021, 09:24:40 AM
I have a nostalgic fondness for B/X, which I started playing in 1982.  5e D&D is too superhero for me.  I want to get back into D&D.

Looking for:
-Running a game where players rely LESS on superpower abilities and MORE on creative solutions to problems.  Having a few tricks is fine.
-Darker atmosphere leaning (not Mork Borg, though)
-Death is more frequent.  Not a meat grinder game, but not a fan of multiple death saves.  I'm not out to get them, but the dice tell a story too and if you are unlucky or make bad choices, your story ends.
-Magic is present, but dangerous to the caster.
-On a scale of 1 is hard candy, 10 is extra crunchy, I'm aiming for 3 with a d20 system.

I know that I could take 5e or some other set of rules and heavily modify them.  Looking for something already made that has been play tested.

I am intrigued by 5e hardcore mode, Five Torches Deep, and Low Fantasy Gaming.  Haven't tried any of them yet.
Any of these or others seem like a good fit?  Why?

   DCC seems to check every box, and uses D20 mechanics of D&D.  I also wonder if you are looking for Sword and Sorcery style adventure (dark but not too dark) or more as Happy Daze suggests WH Fantasy (which is blood and mud, and the starting point of characters akin to being a level 0 character in D&D) which is IMO a good bit darker.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 06, 2021, 05:13:21 PM

Quote from: Vic99 on July 06, 2021, 09:46:22 AM
HappyDaze, what can you tell me about it?  Have you played it? I don't know anything about it.

Rather than superheroes, WFRP focuses on relatively average people (starting characters in my last game included a servant/stablehand and a university student) that are thrown into dangerous situations. They are not out to save the world; they are trying to survive (and, maybe, get rich too).

The setting is a dark fantasy Europe-like world with late middle-ages to early renaissance tech and risky magic. There are D&D-like races and monsters, but less monsters than in D&D. Many of your opponents will be other people and their plots.

System is % based and characters do not really start out all that skilled. Late game can be quite different with Knights of the Inner Circle and Wizard Lords running around, but survival to that point is far from guaranteed.

   I have several books for 2e.  I think they are some of the best designed and most evocative of the setting of any rpg books I have ever bought.  The one thing that has always kept me from trying out a campaign is what seems to be a serious whiff factor for a good bit as characters develop.  I compared it to starting as level 0 characters in my post, and many of the careers that is what it feels like.   I am sure there are several things players familiar with the system and playing it can come up with to make advantages that help with this.  Would you mind pointing a few of these out?

Low Fantasy Gaming has much of what you want. I will compare it with 5e and B/X for you.

LFG strips non-casters of their magic-like abilities. They still have a lot more tricks and abilities than B/X, but less than 5e. There are fun special abilities (rescues and exploits) added by LFG that use a luck mechanic, but these are available to all characters and are situational.

The tone of LFG is dark and gritty, (much more so than 5e or B/X) but that is just a reflection of medieval life. The game does not assume that the world is doomed to everlasting darkness. Neither does the setting book (available separately). LFG uses "realistic" grimdark rather than the comical, stylized, in-your-face grimdark of Mork Borg.

Death in LFG might come a bit more often than in 5e, but it is certainly much more forgiving than B/X. LFG does start you with a lot of hit points. It also allows a Con save when hit points reach zero. You may even have some re-rolls you can apply. Passing means you are only "mostly dead". You can recover, but will roll for a permanent injury.

Magic in LFG is unpredictable and dangerous. Every use of magic involves a roll to see if something horrible happens.

As for crunch, it is in-between B/X and 5e, but much closer to 5e.

2 options.
A: play BX! No, really. Just play the original. Its for sale on Drive thru, Or if youd rather not be putting money in the pockets of these creeps. Get it off other sites. Avoid OSR "clones".

B: Going the 5e route. Its actually fairly easy. Grab Basic and then prune the tree a little, or ALOT!

Fighter: Grind this down to a razors edge. Remove some of the odd abilities.
Rogue: Much same as for Fighter.
Cleric and Wizard: Ditch all cantrips. Grind down odd abilities as much as possible.
Warlock: Maybe allow it as the Elf. But remove the patron and path type.
Ranger: Maybe allow it as the Halfling.
Dwarf: Go as fighter.

Remove class paths.
Ditch every other class and Race. No race gets any stat bonuses.
Consider capping levels at 14.
Allow Feats as 5e Feats are not 3 or 4e Feats. Disallow anything that doesnt fit.
Disallow any magic items that give wizards and clerics a bonus to hit and damage with spells.

Consider reducing wizard HP dice to a d4.

Use the Gritty rules for resting. Short rests now take a day, long rests take a week.
Add in that not taking a breather for 10 min every hour of dungeon crawling incurs a level of exhaustion.

Quote from: HappyDaze on July 06, 2021, 05:13:21 PM

Rather than superheroes, WFRP focuses on relatively average people (starting characters in my last game included a servant/stablehand and a university student) that are thrown into dangerous situations. They are not out to save the world; they are trying to survive (and, maybe, get rich too).

The setting is a dark fantasy Europe-like world with late middle-ages to early renaissance tech and risky magic. There are D&D-like races and monsters, but less monsters than in D&D. Many of your opponents will be other people and their plots.

System is % based and characters do not really start out all that skilled. Late game can be quite different with Knights of the Inner Circle and Wizard Lords running around, but survival to that point is far from guaranteed.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 06, 2021, 05:33:26 PM

   I have several books for 2e.  I think they are some of the best designed and most evocative of the setting of any rpg books I have ever bought.  The one thing that has always kept me from trying out a campaign is what seems to be a serious whiff factor for a good bit as characters develop.  I compared it to starting as level 0 characters in my post, and many of the careers that is what it feels like.   I am sure there are several things players familiar with the system and playing it can come up with to make advantages that help with this.  Would you mind pointing a few of these out?

IMHO WHFRP has always been a great setting perpetually held back by a mediocre system.

WHFRP system has been rather mediocre because of its determination to not be a d100 BRP clone. And possessing some strange need between editions to reinvent itself D&D style which just keeps them from putting out an edition that actually fixes the issues of the past one.

I have 1e, 2e, and 4e.

My opinion is to take 2e, and apply the fixes to known issues that are on various fora. Go Play.

If you have money to burn, port in the stuff from 1e or 4e that you think suits best.

If you really want to get crazy with the cheese whizz – Use the WHFRP setting and adapt the system of your choice.

Let's see...

- I wrote my own version of "O5R". It is called Dark Fantasy Basic, a "neoclone" that mixes 5e, B/X, and some 3e. It's more OSRish than 5eish. You've got dangerous magic, gritty combat, etc.
- Into the unknown is another one I like (system-wise, it is the opposite; more 5e than OSR).
- LFG is indeed a great game, The author has a PDF called 5e Hardmode that I haven't read.
- I've just found out about this 5E-EZ that I find it really neat. A free, simplified version of 5e.
https://olddungeonmaster.com/2017/06/25/dd-5e-simplified-rules/

Svenhelgrim, just the right level of detail for an explanation.  Looks like a promising system.

Jam the MF, good suggestion, but I want something a bit more refined than B/X.  One example is races and classes are the same.  I know I could just change it, but it's more than that.

Happydaze, WHFRP's concept of regular guys, not superheroes, and risky magic are exactly what I want.  Probably not going % even though I could change the math.

Oggsmash, I will check out Sword & Sorcery.  Also, I hadn't considered going back to 2e.  Will look at it, but I suspect i will want something more streamlined.

Vidgrip, LFG might be the ticket.

Omega, I like this advice the best:
"Use the Gritty rules for resting. Short rests now take a day, long rests take a week."

Jaegar, will have to look at WHFRP.

Eric Diaz, that's a great idea for 5e EZ.  Looks good at first glance.

Vic99,

All WFRP products are on sale at DTRPG for the next week or so.