Quote from: StormBringerGranted, there are various nuances, but getting into most of those would be long and distracting.  For these purposes, I would say capitalism is working exactly how is it supposed to.  Surprisingly, the 'capitalists' in charge of the recording industry don't care for that.  

What about the capitalists who work for small software shops? If enough geophysicists decided they'd rather rip off a copy of our software for free than pay for it, I'd be out of a job. And eventually, they would have an unsupported, outdated piece of software. But people who routinely violate IP protection are demonstrably short-sighted anyway (or have a hatred of all business operations).

Quote from: walkerpI have mixed opinions on IP copyright and the restriction of information. But in this case, I make a utility argument.  We are a small enough industry and we have a certain unethical percentage of our population that is high enough that filesharing can actually hurt sales.

I know it always comes to the same circular argument, but "can" doesn't mean "will". In an industry I am much more familiar with, music, I'd say the chances might be higher and even then, it's highly debated in the industry.

But books? Sorry but at this point in time, I have to believe that ownership is almost a requirement. Especially when we are talking about game books. Especially, especially when we are talking about intricate games with lots of rules.

For the few sales that are lost, I could see sales being made too.

Quote from: walkerpYou can always make the trek to the bookstore and flip through it, and there is a ton of preview material that is more than you need to get an idea of how the game works.

What if I feel I still need more?

Quote from: walkerphaving the ability to read the whole thing, at your leisure, in the comfort of your own home is something you should pay for.  Trying to justify it as just checking it out is horseshit.

I take it you've never borrowed a book from a friend? That you don't take advantage of public libraries either? I don't see anything wrong with "checking out the whole thing" from the comfort of my home, thank you very much.

Quote from: walkerpEverybody here knows I hate WotC and consider D&D's dominance of the industry to be a bad thing.  But they are still a big part of the economic success of the industry and may attract new gamers.

I don't see how their ability to attract new gamers is compromised.

Quote from: walkerpIf 4e doesn't sell well, it should be on its own merits, not because a bunch of cheap, lazy geeks thought it was okay for them to check it out thoroughly without paying for it.

WotC did very well with 3rd edition, when the d20 was available legally and piracy was widespread.

Maybe your "mixed opinions on IP copyright and the restriction of information" is not so mixed after all, or maybe you're just posturing.

I respect your personal decision not to peruse material due to the size of this industry. That is your own misguided prerogative. But you can go fuck yourself sideways with a complete coreset if you think I'm cheaper, lazier or half as geeky as your miserable, obsessive person.

Quote from: GoOrangeHas this been proven anywhere? Is there any concrete data saying that filesharing has hurt RPG sales? I don't think so, which means that this is just a theory based on your personal perceptions. I personally think that it's a wash, that DLs take away about the same number of sales that they generate. Like you, I don't have any hard data to back this up, it's just my theory.

I doubt it's been proven anywhere.  I'm very skeptical of the claims of the software and movie industry about how much money they are supposedly losing.  It's pure conjecture on my part and could be totally wrong.  It's just that knowing certain segments of our hobby, I am sure there are many people downloading games and actually using them and never paying for them.  I think that is a problem, though I'm not sure why, and I don't even really like capitalism in its current form.  If there is no economic loss due to downloading in our hobby, then I don't really have a problem with it.

Quote from: GoOrangeAbsolutely false. You cannot ALWAYS go to the bookstore and browse. There are no game shops in my town. The next closest city has one, who keeps all of their books shrink wrapped. We do have a local Barnes and Noble, but they don't get very many products and there is no way to "browse" most RPG products without buying.

Fair enough.  There are exceptions.  I have one really well-stocked gamestore here with absolutely no restrictions on browsing (the employees are grim assholes on the other hand who seem to hate roleplayers).  In such a case, if you are pretty sure you're going to buy it and want to check it out than it doesn't seem like such a heinous crime.  But at this point I'd still argue that there is so much legally free material out there already that you should be able to figure out whether you want to buy it or not without having to download the whole shebang.

Quote from: Consonant DudeI respect your personal decision not to peruse material due to the size of this industry. That is your own misguided prerogative. But you can go fuck yourself sideways with a complete coreset if you think I'm cheaper, lazier or half as geeky as your miserable, obsessive person.

CD, why must you always go overboard?  I think this style of rhetoric is now considered passé here.  Even James J. Skach doesn't talk like this anymore.

Quote from: HaffrungI have a buddy who is a huge Radiohead fan. I think he's bought maybe two Radiohead CDs, and pulled everything else from Limewire. Even when Radiohead put Rainbows up for pay-what-you-want on iTunes, he didn't pay a cent. In fact, he just ripped it off Limewire so Radiohead didn't even get the credit on iTunes for a sale.

So he values Radiohead music tremendously. But he'd rather take it for free than pay.

Invalid Example. He likes radiohead, ergo he's a bobblehead.

Quote from: walkerpCD, why must you always go overboard?  I think this style of rhetoric is now considered passé here.  Even James J. Skach doesn't talk like this anymore.

Because your post started well and highlighted genuine concerns that warrant discussion, but then became awfully judgmental along the way.

It's a topic I love to discuss. I earned a living in the music industry. And I sincerely appreciate you sharing your ethical stances. I like to do likewise with friends. I happen to have a mixed opinion on IP and information too.

I just don't like that you seem to have drawn lines as to what ethics should be and, worse, decided to paint everyone else with an unflattering brush. That, my friend, is not honest.

I'll be downloading the books to check them out, I have no current intent to buy them because I have no current intent to play them.  Should that some how change and there comes a time when our entire group suddenly embraces 4e I'll buy the books, because I prefer to have a book in front of me at the gaming table.  


As for you anti-piracy boo theft types.  I hope everyone in your group owns the books and you never pass them around, because since some of the arguments that DL's hurt the RPG industry in the same way that dl's hurt the media industry.  That would be illegal as well by their standards.  About the only grey area would be if you are reading a book while some one is looking over your shoulder.

Well, I'm gonna buy the books soon out of curiousity. I'm not feeling very enthusiastic about this purchase though. Eh. We'll see how it goes...

Quote from: StormBringerIn what way?

If there is no demand, there is no market.  Finding a buggy whip outside of antiquing circles is damn hard.  Naturally, this doesn't mean most people steal their buggy whips.  There is literally no demand for them.

Agreed. I'm not...surprised...by that sentiment.

Quote from: StormBringerOn the other hand, if there is a demand, but cost is too high, then the demand will be satisfied by other means, and the market for that good will collapse.

OK, I'm sure that you can say the demand will be met by other means. First, there have to be other means. Second, those means have to be good enough and less costly enough that they will suffice. Third - and here's the killer - they have to be legal.

Otherwise, you're skipping an important part of the market. That is, that the owner of property gets a say as well. The problem with the download is that you're not participating int he negotiations of the market, you're bypassing them altogether.

Owner: "I'm selling my property for X"
Potential Customer: "I will only pay X/2"
Owner: "Nope, sorry."

This is fine. But the potential customer doesn't get to respond, "Fine, I get it for free, then."

If your argument is that sooner or later the idiots over at teh RIAA, or any of the similar dunderheads will finally wake up and make the counter offer of X/2 + .1X, and reap the profits thereof, or go under - well then I've no problem. But if you're saying that their refusal to do so give the potential customer the right to take it for 0X - well, then, we'll leave it at we fundamentally disagree on how markets work...

Quote from: walkerpCD, why must you always go overboard?  I think this style of rhetoric is now considered passé here.  Even James J. Skach doesn't talk like this anymore.

I rarely did to begin with you miserable vomitous fuckwad.

If anyone's really having trouble getting a buggy whip, please, just let me know: a good percentage of my friends drive horse buggies and not cars. Enough so that I was having a difficult time figuring out what the comparison was all about, since I was thinking, "But anyone can find a buggy whip: TSC has four different varieties!" Showing my roots, I suppose.

Quote from: EngineIf anyone's really having trouble getting a buggy whip, please, just let me know

I thought you were about to share some freaky personal story there.  Thanks for not doing that.

Buggy whip's stick is too long, and the lash is too short. I think for human use, you really need a riding crop, or a downsized cat-of-nine-tails.

Well, comunism will began when people will steal everything and will began to borow it to each other...

P2P is form of comunism!

Quote from: FritzsWell, comunism will began when people will steal everything and will began to borow it to each other...

P2P is form of comunism!

Message board posts are form of illiteracy.