If everyone had sex with (insert person here), they'd probably be dead, at the very least brutally violated beyond much of anything we can conceive. That's about 2 billion people if you just restrict yourself to healthy members of the opposite sex.

I'm not going to stop having sex with my wife on that basis.

Quote from: CalithenaIf everyone had sex with (insert person here), they'd probably be dead, at the very least brutally violated beyond much of anything we can conceive. That's about 2 billion people if you just restrict yourself to healthy members of the opposite sex.

I'm not going to stop having sex with my wife on that basis.

That's not what your wife said...

:rimshot:

Quote from: HaffrungPeople accidentally download music, movies, and game books?

If everybody stopped paying for cable today, there wouldnt' be any more cable companies. If there weren't any cable companies, there wouldn't be any cable. The only reason there are cable companies today providing the infrastructure and service for cable, is because most people pay. The people who do pay subsidize the people who take it without paying.

Are you referring to tax easements (that don't get re-paid) to build out the infrastructure?  In which case, I already paid for them to install cable to a bunch of neighborhoods.

QuoteLook, all this shrugging off of getting stuff for free as defying faceless corporations is a bunch of bullshit. Do you think the CEO of SunLife says to his wife 'sorry, we can't go on that vacation to the Maldives because too many people are making fraudulent insurance claims (another 'victimless' crime)? Of course not. He simply passes on the cost of fraudulent claims to honest people who pay their premiums. Same with movies, books, music, or any other IP good that some people buy and some people take without authorization - the honest people pay for the freeloaders.

You will have to try harder to invoke the tragedy of the commons.  Perhaps you could mention something about these corporations polluting my air or water.  If you want to talk about insurance companies specifically, you could point out some actuarial tables, or mention that they build 100-story office buildings in downtown Manhattan by scraping together their meagre profits.

Additionally, what you are describing is precisely what 'capitalism' means.  If people don't value a good or service enough to pay for it, then the good or service is worthless, and it shouldn't be on the market.  When people desire a good or service enough to pay for it again, it will form a market.

Are you saying capitalism is bad?  Because most people who are wholly against IP violations of any kind tend to be pretty hard-line capitalists.

QuoteIt's a pretty straightforward ethical question:

If everybody did

• , would it be a bad thing?[/B]
  
  If the answer to the question is YES, then whenever you do X you're selfishly screwing over other people. If doing X becomes the norm, then that good/service/property will eventually not be available at all and you'll screw over yourself.

What if the answer to the question is: "It depends"?

Quote from: James J SkachThat's not what your wife said...

:rimshot:

As a follow up:

"I stopped having sex with your wife on that basis".

I have mixed opinions on IP copyright and the restriction of information. But in this case, I make a utility argument.  We are a small enough industry and we have a certain unethical percentage of our population that is high enough that filesharing can actually hurt sales.  If you aren't going to buy it, then you don't have the right to own it and you shouldn't.  You can always make the trek to the bookstore and flip through it, and there is a ton of preview material that is more than you need to get an idea of how the game works.

Downloading it, having the ability to read the whole thing, at your leisure, in the comfort of your own home is something you should pay for.  Trying to justify it as just checking it out is horseshit.  

Everybody here knows I hate WotC and consider D&D's dominance of the industry to be a bad thing.  But they are still a big part of the economic success of the industry and may attract new gamers.  If 4e doesn't sell well, it should be on its own merits, not because a bunch of cheap, lazy geeks thought it was okay for them to check it out thoroughly without paying for it.

Quote from: StormBringerAdditionally, what you are describing is precisely what 'capitalism' means.  If people don't value a good or service enough to pay for it, then the good or service is worthless, and it shouldn't be on the market.  When people desire a good or service enough to pay for it again, it will form a market.

That might be the most odd use of the idea of a market I've ever seen...

Quote from: StormBringerAs a follow up:

"I stopped having sex with your wife on that basis".

I like yours better...well played, sir...

Downloading a PDF version of a book you own, when no PDF version is available for sale is a pretty morally gray area at best.

Comments like:

"Your a thief. So at least be up front and admit it. Trying to justify your actions with excuses is rather lame. At the very least don't lie to yourself."

"I don't do piracy."

"Theft is theft."

Come across as sanctimonious and hypocritical as most of those posters have likely committed some form of IP infringement or other possible criminal activity themselves.

That being said, if you like the hobby, buy the books.

Quote from: James J SkachI like yours better...well played, sir...

Thank you.

Quote from: GoOrangeDownloading a PDF version of a book you own, when no PDF version is available for sale is a pretty morally gray area at best.

Yes, this is more of a case of Wizards being lame and behind the curve.  In that case, if you own the dead tree books, having a pdf as reference seems reasonable.  Copying it and giving it to your players, not so much.

Quote from: GoOrangeThat being said, if you like the hobby, buy the books.

What he said.

Quote from: RPGPunditBut then, its hard to be optimistic when they start their entire new edition project by boldfacedly LYING to their customer base at an official venue.

Be honest, Pundy. What got you narked wasn't that they misled the public so much as that your crusade against those who speculated that 4E might arrive in 2008 ran rather disasterously aground, and the only way to save what little face you had left on matters D&D was to turn yourself overnight from a D&D fan to a WotC critic.

Unless, of course, you seriously think that the marketing strategy of WotC in early 2007 is in any way indicative of the merits of 4E as a game.

Quote from: walkerpWe are a small enough industry and we have a certain unethical percentage of our population that is high enough that filesharing can actually hurt sales.  

Has this been proven anywhere? Is there any concrete data saying that filesharing has hurt RPG sales? I don't think so, which means that this is just a theory based on your personal perceptions. I personally think that it's a wash, that DLs take away about the same number of sales that they generate. Like you, I don't have any hard data to back this up, it's just my theory.

QuoteYou can always make the trek to the bookstore and flip through it

Absolutely false. You cannot ALWAYS go to the bookstore and browse. There are no game shops in my town. The next closest city has one, who keeps all of their books shrink wrapped. We do have a local Barnes and Noble, but they don't get very many products and there is no way to "browse" most RPG products without buying.

Perhaps where you live there are plenty of stores with large selections for your personal perusal and no one minds you browsing things at length but I have a hard time imagining that that situation is the norm.

QuoteTrying to justify it as just checking it out is horseshit.

Unless you are, of course, just checking it out. Don't get me wrong, I largely agree with you in that if you were going to read the whole thing cover to cover, you should be buying it. But then that logic should also apply to people who borrow books from their friends or take books out of a library.

(I have no idea why I always end up coming to the defense of filesharing. I'm largely opposed to it and greatly encourage all of my friends and players to buy the rulebooks for the games we are playing. I just can't help jumping in and playing devil's advocate. When it comes down to it, I mostly agree with Walker. Specifically, downloading an RPG with no intention whatsoever of paying for it seems wrong, but I'm willing to concede there are a lot of gray areas.)

Quote from: GoOrangeCome across as sanctimonious and hypocritical as most of those posters have likely committed some form of IP infringement or other possible criminal activity themselves.

That being said, if you like the hobby, buy the books.

I agree with both of your statements.  If one wants to support the hobby/industry, certainly one should buy the books.  

But don't make a big deal out of it just because someone else doesn't want to.  Nothing is worse than self-righteousness (which is usually just using the veneer of righteousness to justify intolerance anyways).  Everyone commits some minor ethical violations from time to time - no one is as pure as the driven snow, after all.  If nothing else, it's being excessively prideful, which is as much one of the seven deadly sins as greed.  Judge not, don't throw rocks, and all that stuff...

Quote from: James J SkachThat might be the most odd use of the idea of a market I've ever seen...

In what way?

If there is no demand, there is no market.  Finding a buggy whip outside of antiquing circles is damn hard.  Naturally, this doesn't mean most people steal their buggy whips.  There is literally no demand for them.

On the other hand, if there is a demand, but cost is too high, then the demand will be satisfied by other means, and the market for that good will collapse.  Once the cost drops to the point where people are willing to pay it again, you will have a market.  Naturally, this doesn't apply to every good or service.  Oil, for example, or other non-renewable resources will probably never again drop significantly in price due to channels outside the market.

What happened to the recording industry is that the people got too much information.  Now that everyone knows the cost to produce a CD is far, far below what is charged, they seek out other means to obtain it.  The demand is still there, but the costs are too high.  The recording industry could have responded in any number of ways.  Dropping the cost, for example, or offering recordings in a different format - singles like iTunes, or easily downloadable content.  Combined, these two methods alone would likely have confined 'pirating' to a vanishingly small minority that could be ignored.

Granted, there are various nuances, but getting into most of those would be long and distracting.  For these purposes, I would say capitalism is working exactly how is it supposed to.  Surprisingly, the 'capitalists' in charge of the recording industry don't care for that.  

Quote from: StormBringerAdditionally, what you are describing is precisely what 'capitalism' means.  If people don't value a good or service enough to pay for it, then the good or service is worthless, and it shouldn't be on the market.  When people desire a good or service enough to pay for it again, it will form a market.

That analogy doesn't hold water, unless you can cite an industry where customers had a choice between paying for a good or not paying for it.

What about people who will pay for a good if there's a way to compel payment (ie the ticket-taker at a movie theatre) , but will otherwise steal it? If grocery stores left produce unguarded in their parking lots all night, a lot of dishonest people would simply take it. That doesn't mean the produce has no value - it means a lot of people will pay if they have to, and steal if they don't think they'll get caught.

I have a buddy who is a huge Radiohead fan. I think he's bought maybe two Radiohead CDs, and pulled everything else from Limewire. Even when Radiohead put Rainbows up for pay-what-you-want on iTunes, he didn't pay a cent. In fact, he just ripped it off Limewire so Radiohead didn't even get the credit on iTunes for a sale.

So he values Radiohead music tremendously. But he'd rather take it for free than pay.