Quote from: HaffrungOh yeah, product placement in the creative content itself will become standard (though one wonders what sort of product placement a movie like the 300 could have in it). However, I doubt the folks cheering on the revolution against 'the man' will be happy with the subtle product placement integrated into all of their movies, music, and games.

Aside from Advertising, there's also Merchandising.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Serious PaulNo one's making you buy or read it.

Well put.
This is the REAL free market, baby, yeah!

RPGPundit

Did you guys know that in Canada it's legal to download music from peer to peer networks? Seriously, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in_Canada

Quote from: Age of FableDid you guys know that in Canada it's legal to download music from peer to peer networks? Seriously, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_in_Canada

Everything is legal to download, not to upload.  Yes, I know.  Canadian courts have ruled that "copying" happens at the upload point not the download point.

Many peer-to-peer networks, though, upload as part of the process.

Hence, Bittorrent use for download is illegal.  But Rapidshare downloading is legal.

Quote from: Serious PaulYeah! I mean when they invented the printing press look how many people just started printing books! The nerve of these assholes. I mean then everyone could read, and freely exchange ideas, and next thing you know there was this Renaissance...we've really never recovered.

You know that's what the editor of The Onion said in the Gutenberg Year. That printing press and the abolition of mass illiteracy was the downfall of mankind. Given the sort of meta-commentary he runs on the tabloids, I think he's got a point.

And Renaissance achievements weren't owed so much to printing press (how?) as to the capture of Constantinople, and the exodus of Greek scholars into Europe.

Quote from: WindjammerAnd Renaissance achievements weren't owed so much to printing press (how?) as to the capture of Constantinople, and the exodus of Greek scholars into Europe.

I believe it was the two events in concert with each other, as well as all the events of the time, which lead to the events which followed. Saying "X was caused by Y" is almost always, in historical terms, incorrect.

Quote from: HaffrungNodoby can demonstrate the precise scale of insurance fraud or tax evasion. But we know it happens. And we know who ultimately pays for it - honest people who pay their taxes and don't defraud their insurors.

But we know pulling off insurance fraud *always* results in a loss for the insurance company. They got screwed.

I know that file-sharing can result in a loss, in a wash or even in a GAIN for  the companies targeted. I personally know people who pump back more money in the industry as a result.

I know it's not everyone. I know some people screw the companies too. I just don't know in the grand scheme of things how many downloaders end up in the loss, wash, or gain column.  

Quote from: HaffrungCreators make contracts with people to produce and distribute their content. And they do get something out of the deal - access to capital to fund production and marketing, all the ancillary expertise that goes into bringing creative goods to market (layout, proofing, engineering, accounting, marketing, etc).

That is true but in many of these industries, the people they sign contracts with have made damn sure that mechanisms are in place to make life very difficult for creators who seek independence. They also make their best for the risk of the venture to rest as much on the shoulders of creators as possible.

Quote from: HaffrungSomebody is losing money - big time. And don't forget the role of capital. As I noted above, a lot of professional artistic products (ie movies) require shitloads of financing up front. Where is that going to come from in a free content economy?

I think this is an interesting question but we may just have a difference of opinion that is insurmountable: I believe smart entrepreneurs will always find ways to get compensation off the content. It's not going to be free content, even if people file-share.

Just think of Buffy, for instance. It's played for free on TV. People saw it. People saw re-runs on various channels. Yet I still had friends buying the big DVD collection.

People were still buying D&D3e material even though most of the system was freely (legally and illegally) available on the net.  

Quote from: HaffrungWell, that and passing on the cost of free-riding to people who actually pay. And when those folks get tired of being suckers for the free-riders, they'll stop paying too. And at that point, there may not be a whole lot of room left for innovation. Maybe it will simply become unprofitable to finance and devote skilled labour to producing IP that customers expect for free.

Seriously, you think those companies would pass you the profits if they recouped their losses? I doubt it. If people are ready to pay X amount for a burger, movie or book, they'll pay X.

I was in the market for a Hamilton automatic watch when the Canadian dollar was at its worse. I decided to forget about it because it was just outrageous and to wait for a US trip. When the Canadian dollar finally climbed over the USD, I went back. You know what happened? The prices were still pretty much the same, because that's what a Canadian customer expects to pay, I guess.

Anyway, interesting converstation, Haffrung!

And BTW, you are totally right. A lot of "support" for creators require more stability and some expenses. Guys like editors, engineers and the like. But I just think these people are safe. I was at the Ubisoft office a few weeks ago where I have a lot of friends and things are good for everybody despite piracy. Everybody is smiling, employees are buying houses, planning trips. Happiness

I'm not saying it shouldn't be a concerned, though. And I'd rather people like you question the whole process. I'm just weighing in to say it's not bad and the future doesn't look so bleak.

Seems like just another change of the landscape to me.

To tell you the truth, I'm more worried about stuff like Walmart than stuff like  Torrents.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI love what's folded into the "pretty much": your willingness to muddy the waters and make the case of the political enemy just so you can be contrary.

Who's the political enemy? You, you sentimental liberal.

Quote from: droogWho's the political enemy? You, you sentimental liberal.

Wow, you really have nothing to say.

QED #3. Also known as droog point.

Droog points have no use value whatever, no work went into making them, but hey, they're free.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityDroog points have no use value whatever, no work went into making them, but hey, they're free.

Pay attention. Use-value is independent of exchange-value.

Quote from: EngineIf history is a guide, free content will dramatically increase, and over time the inaccuracy and general crappiness of the majority of it will lead to some manner of site which selects the best for you; call it a "portal."

There are already three models for this:

Filters, like google, let you set up terms for "best" - often, by plugging words into a search.

Portals are proprietary sites - like, if Bob has his Daily Links, that's a portal.

Lenses are user-ratings engines.  So, if Youtube listed all videos by star ratings, that would be a lens.

Quote from: droogPay attention. Use-value is independent of exchange-value.

Sure, but your posts lack both in equal measure.

Quote from: Pierce InveraritySure, but your posts lack both in equal measure.

Hey, let's head-butt assertions!

Quote from: droogHey, let's head-butt assertions!

...AND they're repetitive.

But, I must say, it´s a pretty deep insight to recognize where inalienable personal values clash. Tip of the hat to droog for that.