Quote from: estarThe same thing that would happen before the introduction of copyright. The arts would be funded by wealthy patrons. Performing arts would have the additional luxury of charging for a "authentic" live performance. (Performances by the original artists would still have considerable value).

Yes, except that in the modern age the "wealthy patrons" will be advertisers: ads in the sites where you download, original merchandising, commemorative collectible box sets, etc etc. fucking etc..  

I mean shit, what's the fucking deal, bitches? TV shows have survived for decades now with out having to charge us every time we watch a program.  My god, how the fuck do they manage that?! EVERYONE knows you have to charge the user for every individual use of a product, otherwise its PIRACY!

And if you don't, then the entire entertainment industry will COLLAPSE!
It couldn't possibly be that there's another model just fucking sitting there that's been there since the fucking 1950s, that could easily be translated to the music and movie industry on the internet, right?

I mean fuck, if these assholes can't figure it out, they deserve to collapse.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HaffrungGood analogy. And I regard Levi's handwaving that the market will adapt somehow and everything will be okay the same way I regard the handwaving over global warming that scientists will figure some shit out. Maybe they won't.

Except that the two have nothing to do with each other.

The collapse of the current model of the entertainment industry will not lead to the fall of civilization, it'll just lead to the creation of a new model of entertainment industry.  People will still be entertaining, its a fucking GIVEN. The way they make money off it might have to radically change; so fucking what?
There is nothing in the current system of fat worthless bastard middlemen getting rich off the creativity of a few and the gullibility of the many that makes it a particularly sacred or even worthwhile institution worth defending.  IF the fuckers are so greedy AND stupid as to be unwilling to figure out how to change and adapt, they DESERVE TO DIE.  

Saying that we have to somehow stop all progress in order to accomodate these utter fuckheads is absurd. Its like if in the 16th century the town criers had complained that the printing press was "theft"; or the Big oil lamp industry of the 19th century demanded laws limiting the purchase of the electric light bulb because the alternative would be the collapse of their enterprises. Who gives a fuck? Why should people be persecuted, bankrupted, their lives destroyed, and be sentenced to prison for a longer period than a RAPIST just to save a gang of worthless parasites who don't have the brains to adapt with the times?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIts like if in the 16th century the town criers had complained that the printing press was "theft"

Ever heard of De Laude Scriptorum?

Quote from: RPGPunditI mean shit, what's the fucking deal, bitches? TV shows have survived for decades now with out having to charge us every time we watch a program.  My god, how the fuck do they manage that?! EVERYONE knows you have to charge the user for every individual use of a product, otherwise its PIRACY!

And if you don't, then the entire entertainment industry will COLLAPSE!
It couldn't possibly be that there's another model just fucking sitting there that's been there since the fucking 1950s, that could easily be translated to the music and movie industry on the internet, right?

With the ability to block (or skip) ads becoming widespread, I doubt the television model will be around in television in 15 years, let alone adopted by other entertainment formats. The same folks who pirate content will block ads. Advertisers aren't fucking idiots. If they know the audience is blocking ads, they'll stop paying the host for the privelage of putting up ads nobody is watching.

Advertisers are already looking at expanding the use of putting product placements in the content itself.  What kind of car did Hiro and Ando drive in Heroes?  Yeah. "Nissan Versa".  He was practically chanting it. "Nissan Versa. Nissan Versa. Nissan Versa."

Quote from: RPGPunditExcept that the two have nothing to do with each other.

The collapse of the current model of the entertainment industry will not lead to the fall of civilization, it'll just lead to the creation of a new model of entertainment industry.  People will still be entertaining, its a fucking GIVEN. The way they make money off it might have to radically change; so fucking what?

What's not a given is that the quality of entertainment will be sustained when investment and working in entertainment becomes riskier and less profitable. And if free content becomes ubiquitous, the money isn't just being carved up differently - it's being dramatically decreased.

Quote from: RPGPunditThere is nothing in the current system of fat worthless bastard middlemen getting rich off the creativity of a few and the gullibility of the many that makes it a particularly sacred or even worthwhile institution worth defending.  

I've already cited several important resources those fat worthless bastard middlemen contribute, namely capital and ancillary expertise (editing, engineering, proofing, testing, marketing, etc.) Sure, I suppose you can contract all those services out on an ad-hoc basis. But in my experience editors, engineers, marketers, etc. want a lot more economic security than artists do. And this often isn't fun work, so you can't rely on amateur hobbyists either.

They also act as gatekeepers. Sometimes this is bad, but don't overlook the keen interest someone who is investing serious money in a project has in it actually working and finding a market. People who invest nothing but some of their leisure time in a hobby project can cheerfully produce shit nobody wants.

I expect the widespread availability of free content to dramatically increase the amount of crappy amateur content out there, and seriously undermine the volume and quality of professional content.

Quote from: StuartAdvertisers are already looking at expanding the use of putting product placements in the content itself.  What kind of car did Hiro and Ando drive in Heroes?  Yeah. "Nissan Versa".  He was practically chanting it. "Nissan Versa. Nissan Versa. Nissan Versa."

Oh yeah, product placement in the creative content itself will become standard (though one wonders what sort of product placement a movie like the 300 could have in it). However, I doubt the folks cheering on the revolution against 'the man' will be happy with the subtle product placement integrated into all of their movies, music, and games.

Quote from: HaffrungOh yeah, product placement in the creative content itself will become standard (though one wonders what sort of product placement a movie like the 300 could have in it).

Hmm... music -- but that's sketchy due to downloading...

How about a tabletop game?

:haw:

Quote from: HaffrungWhat's not a given is that the quality of entertainment will be sustained when investment and working in entertainment becomes riskier and less profitable.

Yeah! I mean when they invented the printing press look how many people just started printing books! The nerve of these assholes. I mean then everyone could read, and freely exchange ideas, and next thing you know there was this Renaissance...we've really never recovered.

QuoteI expect the widespread availability of free content to dramatically increase the amount of crappy amateur content out there, and seriously undermine the volume and quality of professional content.

No one's making you buy or read it.

Quote from: RPGPunditThere is nothing in the current system of fat worthless bastard middlemen getting rich off the creativity of a few and the gullibility of the many that makes it a particularly sacred or even worthwhile institution worth defending.

I don't know about "fat" or "bastard," but the middlemen of whom you speak are not worthless; whether their worth is equal to their pay is debatable, but they do truly serve many useful services to the artist and the audience. Again, that's not to say - I've been talking to Sett all day, pardon the caveats - that everything they do is worthwhile, or that they are paid what they're worth, only that they are most definitely not, as a whole, worthless.

QuoteI expect the widespread availability of free content to dramatically increase the amount of crappy amateur content out there, and seriously undermine the volume and quality of professional content.

Yeah, like that fucking printing press. Anyone can write anything they want and give it to anyone nowadays, and as a result, there are no longer easy means of discerning what's quality and what's not.

Then, seeing a need unfulfilled, businesses stepped in to provide services Joe Selfpublisher couldn't provide as efficiently himself. A publishing industry arose, despite the fact that the technology to publish was now in the hands of the many [my mother built her own copy machine when she was a child], despite the fact that the DTP revolution of the 1980s and early 1990s even made it, you know, easy. And yet big business took the printing press anyone could build, and made a multibillion dollar business out of it...because there's always a need for middlemen.

If history is a guide, free content will dramatically increase, and over time the inaccuracy and general crappiness of the majority of it will lead to some manner of site which selects the best for you; call it a "portal." And eventually, business interests will see other needs unfulfilled, and step in to provide those services, and the masses will still have the access to information distribution, but the system will drown them out...until the next information revolution.

Nothing new to see here, even though everything is new.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenEver heard of De Laude Scriptorum?

Yes; and now that you mention it that's an excellent comparison.  Medieval monks complaining that the printing press will mean the collapse of the "Monks copying books by hand" industry.

RPGPundit

Quote from: HaffrungWith the ability to block (or skip) ads becoming widespread, I doubt the television model will be around in television in 15 years, let alone adopted by other entertainment formats. The same folks who pirate content will block ads. Advertisers aren't fucking idiots. If they know the audience is blocking ads, they'll stop paying the host for the privelage of putting up ads nobody is watching.

The advertising industry is one industry that is NOT worried about the advent of new technology.  That's because, as hateful as the dudes sometimes are, they have one thing over and above the music or movie industries: they are full of people who are very clever and dynamic and always trying to think of NEW ways to sell us stuff.

They'll always find ways to advertise, and if the old ways stop working they find new ways.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditYes; and now that you mention it that's an excellent comparison.  Medieval monks complaining that the printing press will mean the collapse of the "Monks copying books by hand" industry.

RPGPundit

...And distributing those complaints by way of the printing press.

That's the bit that makes it extra-fun.

Quote from: HaffrungWhat's not a given is that the quality of entertainment will be sustained when investment and working in entertainment becomes riskier and less profitable. And if free content becomes ubiquitous, the money isn't just being carved up differently - it's being dramatically decreased.

Do you really think the current model of the music industry is producing shitloads of quality right now?

It seems to me that its producing a neverending river of steaming crap. And pretty much has been since at least the times of Tin Pan Alley.  
Yes, talented musicians were always quickly snatched up and injected to the system, but they were not products OF the system. The Music Industry didn't create Bob Dylan, or the Grateful Dead, or the Beatles; it made use of them.  It created the New Kids on The Block, the Backstreet Boys, and Britney Spears.

If the music industry in its current format were to collapse, you can bet that the really talented musicians will find ways to make money and fame for themselves regardless.  Radiohead has already shown one early example of this.

QuoteI expect the widespread availability of free content to dramatically increase the amount of crappy amateur content out there, and seriously undermine the volume and quality of professional content.

In my experience, most "crappy amateur content" still tends to be heads and tails above the crapulence of the Crappy Professional Content that the record industry pre-fabricates on a massive basis.

RPGPundit