Quote from: Mishihari on July 06, 2021, 11:55:27 PM
Anyone with half a brain can see the difference.  I've been through this discussion before, multiple time.  Back in the day when it looked like the 4E approach was going to dominate it was worth arguing in detail.  Today, your game is pretty much dead and few care about it anymore.  I don't care to spend energy arguing the obvious anymore.

There's literally hundreds of non-magical (Ex) abilities rife through 3e, 3.5, and Pathfinder 1e. This isn't a bad thing. There's lots (don't know exactly how many off the top of my head) of the same thing in 5E, even in the Core classes - like the Fighter - that have the exact same application to the narrative of the game AND the exact same reason why it's "depleted". Because "balance" or "Gameist". The Fighter uses Action Surge 1/short or long rest. Why? The have Maneuvers that use a rest-action to replenish, why? All I wanted to know is why the 3.5 Barbarian's extraordinary Rage feature 1/day gets a pass, why the 3.5 Monk's stunning fist x/day (no ties to Ki) gets a pass, why the 5E Fighter's Action Surge 1/rest gets a pass, why the Battle Master's maneuvers X/rest get a pass BUT because it's in a color-coded box that LOOKS like a spell.....well shit there's a giant NOPE on it?

IF you don't like arbitrary game-ist narrative concepts that have no "real life" logical reason for limitation, that's all find and dandy. Eirikrautha said as much, which makes sense. ALL 4E did was give more people access to them and make them colorful. That's it. I wonder though, if people would've lost their absolute shit if we saw this in the 5E player's Handbook.

Action Surge; Fighter Feature
You push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment, surging you on to fight even longer
Free Action; Personal
Effect: On your turn, you can take on additional action on top of our regular action and a possible bonus action
• Recharge: You regain the use of this effect when you complete a short or long rest.

Lastly, yeah I know the game is "dead", but funny enough we're still talking about and discussing it 13 years after it debuted and 7 years after it "died".

Quote from: Batman on July 07, 2021, 01:28:09 AM
There's literally hundreds of non-magical (Ex) abilities rife through 3e, 3.5, and Pathfinder 1e. This isn't a bad thing. There's lots (don't know exactly how many off the top of my head) of the same thing in 5E, even in the Core classes - like the Fighter - that have the exact same application to the narrative of the game AND the exact same reason why it's "depleted". Because "balance" or "Gameist". The Fighter uses Action Surge 1/short or long rest. Why? The have Maneuvers that use a rest-action to replenish, why? All I wanted to know is why the 3.5 Barbarian's extraordinary Rage feature 1/day gets a pass, why the 3.5 Monk's stunning fist x/day (no ties to Ki) gets a pass, why the 5E Fighter's Action Surge 1/rest gets a pass, why the Battle Master's maneuvers X/rest get a pass BUT because it's in a color-coded box that LOOKS like a spell.....well shit there's a giant NOPE on it?

This is about suspension of disbelief, which is highly idiosyncratic and personal. At least 5 people have explained to you why the 4e abilities shatter their suspension of disbelief, while the 3.5 abilities do not. It's kind of presumptuous to angrily demand they repeat themselves again and again, because you're under the mistaken impression that your own subjective preferences are objective truths. They're not.

Just accept that people draw the line in different places. What works for you doesn't work for a lot of people. This isn't about being right or wrong, it's about what breaks immersion for each individual. If you're really interested in what other people think, go back and read the several pages where it was covered in this thread. Don't just dismiss them as wrong, because that's a silly thing to do. They're opinions. It's like saying someone is wrong for liking the color blue, when you like orange.

Quote from: Batman on July 07, 2021, 01:28:09 AM
Recharge: You regain the use of this effect when you complete a short or long rest.

For some of us, the difference between this and "once per Encounter" is significant. I appreciate that you don't find it so, but repeatedly asserting that it's equivalent isn't convincing.

(And Pat seems to be saying the same thing at the same time.)

Quote from: Naburimannu on July 07, 2021, 02:04:47 AM

Quote from: Batman on July 07, 2021, 01:28:09 AM
Recharge: You regain the use of this effect when you complete a short or long rest.

For some of us, the difference between this and "once per Encounter" is significant. I appreciate that you don't find it so, but repeatedly asserting that it's equivalent isn't convincing.

(And Pat seems to be saying the same thing at the same time.)

Maybe I don't understand why they're significant?

Quote from: Batman on July 07, 2021, 02:08:40 AM

Quote from: Naburimannu on July 07, 2021, 02:04:47 AM

Quote from: Batman on July 07, 2021, 01:28:09 AM
Recharge: You regain the use of this effect when you complete a short or long rest.

For some of us, the difference between this and "once per Encounter" is significant. I appreciate that you don't find it so, but repeatedly asserting that it's equivalent isn't convincing.

(And Pat seems to be saying the same thing at the same time.)

Maybe I don't understand why they're significant?

Possibly the assumption is that having a rest makes some kind of narrative sense (I don't see it personally).

It works better, because not having it happen every encounter reliably means that the Fighter has the strategic decision about whether it's worth using in any individual encounter which means waiting and scoping out the combat, whereas if it was every encounter you'd be pretty much always better using it straight away in the first round (which drained a lot of the tactical interest from 4e after awhile). 

But it could mean that calling it per rest lets it slip past without people really paying attention to it's unreality.

But well...if that works, then it works.

Quote from: TJS on July 07, 2021, 02:32:47 AM
Possibly the assumption is that having a rest makes some kind of narrative sense (I don't see it personally).

It works better, because not having it happen every encounter reliably means that the Fighter has the strategic decision about whether it's worth using in any individual encounter which means waiting and scoping out the combat, whereas if it was every encounter you'd be pretty much always better using it straight away in the first round (which drained a lot of the tactical interest from 4e after awhile). 

But it could mean that calling it per rest lets it slip past without people really paying attention to it's unreality.

But well...if that works, then it works.

That's a fair assessment

If it's tied to a rest at least there's a narrative, in-game reason why you're able to do it again. Breaking it out into "encounters" is imposing a metagame concept onto the action that makes it feel more artificial.

Quote from: TJS on July 07, 2021, 02:32:47 AM
Possibly the assumption is that having a rest makes some kind of narrative sense (I don't see it personally).

It works better, because not having it happen every encounter reliably means that the Fighter has the strategic decision about whether it's worth using in any individual encounter which means waiting and scoping out the combat, whereas if it was every encounter you'd be pretty much always better using it straight away in the first round (which drained a lot of the tactical interest from 4e after awhile). 

But it could mean that calling it per rest lets it slip past without people really paying attention to it's unreality.

But well...if that works, then it works.

It is a very thin veneer that adds a little pretense that it is different.  Objectively, that's all it is.  Subjectively, apparently the thin veneer is a lot more useful to many people.  Me, I don't really connect to that in RPG.  I can get it intellectually, but for me a thin veneer that doesn't do anything else is just a thin veneer that I see through immediately.  However, I'm used to playing Hero System, where there is no veneer at all except what you apply yourself. 

Where I can kind of connect is in board and computer games.  There are a lot of games that have a similar divide, but for those I typically fall on the side that the veneer matters.  People who are really good at, say, the Civilization computer games apparently all but ignore the veneer and play the game as a giant puzzle spreadsheet.  That would bore me to death.  I can objectively see how playing the spreadsheet is the way to win, but its only fun if I'm paying some attention to the eye candy, thinking alternate history, etc.    Then there is the Waterdeep board game.  The veneer on that is so tacked on that it actively gets in my way of the enjoyment--the way many people talk about D&D 4E.

I think there is an uncanny valley of pretense, where it is enough that people see it for pretense but not enough to accept it an play.  You get the same thing with labels in the game.  There are some where a class is just a mechanical widget with the veneer of an archetype which can be ignored when it becomes inconvenient.  They don't mind if the way to have a great archer is to always pick the "ranger" mechanical widget and then flavor as needed.  What you call it in game could be anything. There are others that the "ranger" is an archetype and the "fighter" is an archetype, and both better be capable of being outstanding archers or they don't like it. 

In the parlance of the 4E backlash, and a word that I find ill-chosen and frequently misused, for me all RPG mechanics are "disassociated".  Any association is provided by the user.

Quote from: Mishihari on July 05, 2021, 02:33:39 AM

Quote from: Batman on July 04, 2021, 10:12:48 AM"Why can't my Fighter action surge at-will? Because it would break the game." IS a viable reason why it's not something they can do all the time. It doesn't make RL sense, but then D&D isn't supposed to mirror or mimic real life. What my issue is, that people are fine to overlook the dozens of ways in which non-magic classes have daily/rest limitations on their abilities BUT weren't able to do that with 4E.

I couldn't get past the arbitrary limits on daily powers.  If something is what it is for gamist or narrative reasons, but there isn't any in-setting explanation for why it should be so, then the game just gets a "no" from me.

With some it makes sense in a RL way. Like Action Surge. This is that moment of adrenaline boost sort of thing. Not something you can do all day. Or more aptly you could say the character IS action surging all day. But the encounter version is that really big one.

Same possibly with alot of other "use per day" sorts of things. These could be anything from exploiting a moment in combat to a reserve of energy called upon. One of the strengths of D&D and RPGs is that you can say its whatever and that works. As a DM I've seen players describe these things all sorts of ways in use. Sometimes different ways each time because thats how it fit the moment.

Others make a little less sense but overall those tend to be few and far between.

This goes way back to O and A D&D where a combat round took a full minute. But only one attack is made? Thats because the round is taken up with the general parry-thrust-block-dodge back and fourth between opponents and the attack roll represents that moment of opening where damage might be done, or that big lunge that makes the opponent scramble to avoid and wears them down that much more.

I have softened on encounter powers over the years because I realized I really could not be bothered as a GM to keep track of exact minutes for effect durations. And I highly doubt any GM that isn't a secret robot does either.

I found effect durations only really matter for PC plans or specific time periods, and as long as some semblance of measure of that exists outside of stuff like combat, thats OK.

But I get the talk about Veneers. I liked Endless Legend more then Endless Space 2 because I felt more 'There'.

The funniest part is that all the critics of 4E don't seem to know that encounter powers DO require a short rest to recover them. It's right there in the rules for encounter powers.

But because the 4E designers actually systematized things using keywords it didn't need to be restated in every single power; the "encounter" keyword literally means "regained after a short or long rest." Likewise, the 4E daily keyword means "regained after a long rest."

Basically, the only difference between 4E's "encounter" keyword and 5e's "recharges after a short or long rest" is that 4E takes 3x fewer letters to write out.

Quote from: Omega on July 07, 2021, 07:52:40 AM

Quote from: Mishihari on July 05, 2021, 02:33:39 AM

Quote from: Batman on July 04, 2021, 10:12:48 AM"Why can't my Fighter action surge at-will? Because it would break the game." IS a viable reason why it's not something they can do all the time. It doesn't make RL sense, but then D&D isn't supposed to mirror or mimic real life. What my issue is, that people are fine to overlook the dozens of ways in which non-magic classes have daily/rest limitations on their abilities BUT weren't able to do that with 4E.

I couldn't get past the arbitrary limits on daily powers.  If something is what it is for gamist or narrative reasons, but there isn't any in-setting explanation for why it should be so, then the game just gets a "no" from me.

With some it makes sense in a RL way. Like Action Surge. This is that moment of adrenaline boost sort of thing. Not something you can do all day. Or more aptly you could say the character IS action surging all day. But the encounter version is that really big one.

Same possibly with alot of other "use per day" sorts of things. These could be anything from exploiting a moment in combat to a reserve of energy called upon. One of the strengths of D&D and RPGs is that you can say its whatever and that works. As a DM I've seen players describe these things all sorts of ways in use. Sometimes different ways each time because thats how it fit the moment.

Others make a little less sense but overall those tend to be few and far between.

This goes way back to O and A D&D where a combat round took a full minute. But only one attack is made? Thats because the round is taken up with the general parry-thrust-block-dodge back and fourth between opponents and the attack roll represents that moment of opening where damage might be done, or that big lunge that makes the opponent scramble to avoid and wears them down that much more.

As an example of describing powers differently, the 7th level 4ighter encounter power "Come and Get It" is presented as the fighter pointing at his enemies as if saying, "You. Me. Right here, right now." And, all the monsters obediently plod over to get whacked. A player who does not like that idea might, instead, describe his character as stumbling and fumbling, and the enemies rush in, seeing what they think is an opportunity, only to get mighty-stabbed.

I guess it's obvious that there need be no reason for liking or not liking something. I like 4e. I really want to like 5e, and purchased the starter set a couple of years ago, and downloaded the basic rules of the game. I just can't get into it, and I don't know why. *shrug* It is a very popular version of the game, and I am glad so many people get so much enjoyment from it. I have played the 4e Essentials starter set with my kids, and began the "Kobold Hall" adventure from the DM Guide with them, but every time I start the "Lost Mine of Phandelver", I read through it a while, then pack everything back in the box and return it to the shelf. Don't know why. Maybe I just don't like Forgotten Realms, or something silly like that.

What I play most with my kids is Mentzer Basic. Not that we play all that much, though.

Quote from: cavalier973 on July 07, 2021, 10:43:41 AM
As an example of describing powers differently, the 7th level 4ighter encounter power "Come and Get It" is presented as the fighter pointing at his enemies as if saying, "You. Me. Right here, right now." And, all the monsters obediently plod over to get whacked. A player who does not like that idea might, instead, describe his character as stumbling and fumbling, and the enemies rush in, seeing what they think is an opportunity, only to get mighty-stabbed.

Worth noting too is that "Come and Get It" isn't automatic. You have to make the equivalent to a successful 3e feint check vs. each target to actually draw the targets in. The only difference is that instead of the feint making the target flat-footed it makes them close with you.

Quote from: Chris24601 on July 07, 2021, 11:24:30 AM

Quote from: cavalier973 on July 07, 2021, 10:43:41 AM
As an example of describing powers differently, the 7th level 4ighter encounter power "Come and Get It" is presented as the fighter pointing at his enemies as if saying, "You. Me. Right here, right now." And, all the monsters obediently plod over to get whacked. A player who does not like that idea might, instead, describe his character as stumbling and fumbling, and the enemies rush in, seeing what they think is an opportunity, only to get mighty-stabbed.

Worth noting too is that "Come and Get It" isn't automatic. You have to make the equivalent to a successful 3e feint check vs. each target to actually draw the targets in. The only difference is that instead of the feint making the target flat-footed it makes them close with you.

The System Mastery guys talked about a fighter power that began with a "Push"; the target of the power was "one creature" instead of "one enemy", so they interpreted as the fighter throwing the halfling ranger to the enemies' back line.

I totally agree that these are all basically the same thing and that it comes down to an immersive taste.

I will say there's one way this can impact it: a lot of people like to pretend as they read their PHB's and other books that these are a window into the game world, that these might be actual tomes you're parting through, that sort of thing. The 3.5 book covers are a good example of this. With those it lets you drawn into the fantasy element just by reading it, but for 4e it feels like looking at a videogame menu (even though the information is the same and it actually is more clear).