Quote from: Armchair Gamer on July 02, 2021, 05:04:10 PM

Quote from: KingCheops on July 02, 2021, 04:49:50 PM
The typical explanation that I saw on the forums and I rather liked was that your Daily powers represent combos/circumstances that were fairly unique/rare so you couldn't just spam them all day long.  Encounter powers would be things that once your opponents see it they know how to defend against it so they don't present the opportunity anymore.

Martial Powers were called Exploits.  Make of that definition what you will.

   This explanation goes back to the original 4E preview books, but was rejected by at least some of the audience as overly narrative or disassociated from the character.

   I think an endurance point system might have squared the circle, but 4E took a while to break out of the AEDU structure and the sense of symmetry among all classes. Going further ... well, spell points would have further distanced the game from classic D&D.

Ah that explains it.  I'd given up on D&D because I hated 3rd edition so I missed the marketing/preview.

Endurance points would be an easy thing to implement.  Healing Surges are already a thing.  This is part of why I liked 4e -- I felt like it was really easy for me to bend and warp the system.  3rd always felt like it was hard to build off of whereas 5e feels like a happy medium between them.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on July 02, 2021, 02:27:09 PMBut a martial technique is just about skill.

Skill takes effort to execute. Its a technique so awesome, your just as winded as a barbarian after doing it.

But again, I myself hate daily system resource tracking management, so Im playing devils advocate.

Quote from: Shrieking Banshee on July 03, 2021, 07:10:43 AM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on July 02, 2021, 02:27:09 PMBut a martial technique is just about skill.

Skill takes effort to execute. Its a technique so awesome, your just as winded as a barbarian after doing it.

But again, I myself hate daily system resource tracking management, so Im playing devils advocate.

There's a reason why in my own system that got its start as a 4E retroclone, but grew into its own thing the PCs used Focus points for the equivalent of encounter powers (Focus recovered with a minute or so outside of a fight to refocus) and Heroic Surges for the equivalent of 4E daily powers + action points + healing surges + death saves (basically all the deep endurance reserves type things that recovered at 1-2 points per hour of rest depending on your Endurance attribute and since they're used for everything above they couldn't just be spammed without serious risk... each extra attack or daily power type use is one less recovery you can take or death save you can fail until you're able to actually stop and rest).

To top it off, both Focus and Heroic Surges were used to push your at-will techniques rather than powering unique combat techniques, so both were more about pushing past your normal limits.

To use, say, "Iron Tide" as an example, at-will its just an attack and a 5' push... with varying amounts of Focus you could knock them back further, knock them down and/or even stagger them for a round or so... with a surge you treat any hit like a critical, stagger them for multiple rounds and will even do some damage on a miss.

In general, I got almost no pushback on that arrangement from my playtesters who preferred verisimilitude.

The ones who didn't like the meta-currency element of 4E encounter/daily powers also generally thought it was acceptable since choosing a moment to put more effort into an action is something a character could actually choose to do rather than "by using this ability, circumstances align for me to use my encounter/daily exploit... which takes you a bit outside the character to have happen).

Quote from: KingCheops on July 02, 2021, 04:49:50 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on July 02, 2021, 02:27:09 PM
I just mean that, explanation wise, both rage and stunning strike depend on something like endurance -- there's only so much adrenaline bursts you can have, so to speak.

But a martial technique is just about skill. You don't forget how to cleave after you cleave. There's no extra resource you're spending like ki, which exists in-game as well. (It's not some meta-currency.) Logically it should be more like Sneak Attack where you can always just do it when the conditions come up.

TBH I'm fine with that, for things like battlemaster in 5e.

The typical explanation that I saw on the forums and I rather liked was that your Daily powers represent combos/circumstances that were fairly unique/rare so you couldn't just spam them all day long.  Encounter powers would be things that once your opponents see it they know how to defend against it so they don't present the opportunity anymore.

Martial Powers were called Exploits.  Make of that definition what you will.

Note that Cleave specifically was a Fighter level 1 At-Will so you could literally do it all day long.  But your general intention with your statement is understood.

The problem comes when an int 4 bear suddenly sees through your technique.

Quote from: Slambo on July 03, 2021, 11:57:13 AM

Quote from: KingCheops on July 02, 2021, 04:49:50 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on July 02, 2021, 02:27:09 PM
I just mean that, explanation wise, both rage and stunning strike depend on something like endurance -- there's only so much adrenaline bursts you can have, so to speak.

But a martial technique is just about skill. You don't forget how to cleave after you cleave. There's no extra resource you're spending like ki, which exists in-game as well. (It's not some meta-currency.) Logically it should be more like Sneak Attack where you can always just do it when the conditions come up.

TBH I'm fine with that, for things like battlemaster in 5e.

The typical explanation that I saw on the forums and I rather liked was that your Daily powers represent combos/circumstances that were fairly unique/rare so you couldn't just spam them all day long.  Encounter powers would be things that once your opponents see it they know how to defend against it so they don't present the opportunity anymore.

Martial Powers were called Exploits.  Make of that definition what you will.

Note that Cleave specifically was a Fighter level 1 At-Will so you could literally do it all day long.  But your general intention with your statement is understood.

The problem comes when an int 4 bear suddenly sees through your technique.

Lol you have no idea how the real world fucking works is your problem.

Quote from: KingCheops on July 03, 2021, 04:51:01 PM

Quote from: Slambo on July 03, 2021, 11:57:13 AM

Quote from: KingCheops on July 02, 2021, 04:49:50 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on July 02, 2021, 02:27:09 PM
I just mean that, explanation wise, both rage and stunning strike depend on something like endurance -- there's only so much adrenaline bursts you can have, so to speak.

But a martial technique is just about skill. You don't forget how to cleave after you cleave. There's no extra resource you're spending like ki, which exists in-game as well. (It's not some meta-currency.) Logically it should be more like Sneak Attack where you can always just do it when the conditions come up.

TBH I'm fine with that, for things like battlemaster in 5e.

The typical explanation that I saw on the forums and I rather liked was that your Daily powers represent combos/circumstances that were fairly unique/rare so you couldn't just spam them all day long.  Encounter powers would be things that once your opponents see it they know how to defend against it so they don't present the opportunity anymore.

Martial Powers were called Exploits.  Make of that definition what you will.

Note that Cleave specifically was a Fighter level 1 At-Will so you could literally do it all day long.  But your general intention with your statement is understood.

The problem comes when an int 4 bear suddenly sees through your technique.

Lol you have no idea how the real world fucking works is your problem.

What, because i think bears don't consult fencing manuals.

Quote from: Slambo on July 03, 2021, 06:17:59 PM

Quote from: KingCheops on July 03, 2021, 04:51:01 PM

Quote from: Slambo on July 03, 2021, 11:57:13 AM

Quote from: KingCheops on July 02, 2021, 04:49:50 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on July 02, 2021, 02:27:09 PM
I just mean that, explanation wise, both rage and stunning strike depend on something like endurance -- there's only so much adrenaline bursts you can have, so to speak.

But a martial technique is just about skill. You don't forget how to cleave after you cleave. There's no extra resource you're spending like ki, which exists in-game as well. (It's not some meta-currency.) Logically it should be more like Sneak Attack where you can always just do it when the conditions come up.

TBH I'm fine with that, for things like battlemaster in 5e.

The typical explanation that I saw on the forums and I rather liked was that your Daily powers represent combos/circumstances that were fairly unique/rare so you couldn't just spam them all day long.  Encounter powers would be things that once your opponents see it they know how to defend against it so they don't present the opportunity anymore.

Martial Powers were called Exploits.  Make of that definition what you will.

Note that Cleave specifically was a Fighter level 1 At-Will so you could literally do it all day long.  But your general intention with your statement is understood.

The problem comes when an int 4 bear suddenly sees through your technique.

Lol you have no idea how the real world fucking works is your problem.

What, because i think bears don't consult fencing manuals.

Believe it or not bears are generally smart enough to try different attacks, defend themselves, and maneuver for different positions.  Just because they're Int 4 doesn't mean they're not predators or they don't compete for mates/territory.  So you pull off your Daily Exploit and whatever that Exploit happens to be the bear is cunning enough to know not to create the same circumstances that got it in such a bad position the last time.

No fencing manual needed.  Also why are you fighting regular bears and why are they attacking fully armed humanoid parties?  This isn't WoW despite what you think.

Quote from: KingCheops on July 03, 2021, 07:52:05 PM
Also why are you fighting regular bears and why are they attacking fully armed humanoid parties?  This isn't WoW despite what you think.

Because real world bears are dangerous.

Quote from: Shasarak on July 03, 2021, 09:17:36 PM

Quote from: KingCheops on July 03, 2021, 07:52:05 PM
Also why are you fighting regular bears and why are they attacking fully armed humanoid parties?  This isn't WoW despite what you think.

Because real world bears are dangerous.

ROAR!

Quote from: KingCheops on July 03, 2021, 07:52:05 PM

Quote from: Slambo on July 03, 2021, 06:17:59 PM

Quote from: KingCheops on July 03, 2021, 04:51:01 PM

Quote from: Slambo on July 03, 2021, 11:57:13 AM

Quote from: KingCheops on July 02, 2021, 04:49:50 PM

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on July 02, 2021, 02:27:09 PM
I just mean that, explanation wise, both rage and stunning strike depend on something like endurance -- there's only so much adrenaline bursts you can have, so to speak.

But a martial technique is just about skill. You don't forget how to cleave after you cleave. There's no extra resource you're spending like ki, which exists in-game as well. (It's not some meta-currency.) Logically it should be more like Sneak Attack where you can always just do it when the conditions come up.

TBH I'm fine with that, for things like battlemaster in 5e.

The typical explanation that I saw on the forums and I rather liked was that your Daily powers represent combos/circumstances that were fairly unique/rare so you couldn't just spam them all day long.  Encounter powers would be things that once your opponents see it they know how to defend against it so they don't present the opportunity anymore.

Martial Powers were called Exploits.  Make of that definition what you will.

Note that Cleave specifically was a Fighter level 1 At-Will so you could literally do it all day long.  But your general intention with your statement is understood.

The problem comes when an int 4 bear suddenly sees through your technique.

Lol you have no idea how the real world fucking works is your problem.

What, because i think bears don't consult fencing manuals.

No fencing manual needed.  Also why are you fighting regular bears and why are they attacking fully armed humanoid parties?  This isn't WoW despite what you think.

Because they're an easy example of a low int creature ubiquitous across almost every game, appear on encounter charts, and "he fought a bear" is a common indicator of some kinda great fighter in a lot of stories that come up.

Anyway, its remarkable you could understand cleave was a generic use for fighter skill but not that bear was a stand in for fumb monster. How about you get out your feelings and pull your head out your ass.

And how does this explaination even work for daily powers, oh i pulled it off once and now even if they never saw it i can't do it. Thankfully the exact circumstance and position i needed came up this one time today so i could use it and the same condition will reliably happen tommorow.

Quote from: Slambo on July 03, 2021, 10:40:30 PM
And how does this explaination even work for daily powers, oh i pulled it off once and now even if they never saw it i can't do it. Thankfully the exact corcumsgance and position i needed came up this one time today so i could use it and will reliably happen tommorow.

I don't see why this is such a weird thing to conceive of. In sports lots of exceptional things happen due to in-the-moment circumstances that aren't easily repeatable. A soccer player may only score a goal on a bicycle kick rarely, but this doesn't mean that soccer players only have a 1/day bicycle kick maneuver. The circumstances where such a thing actually arises and can work are just rare.*

Quote from: Zelen on July 02, 2021, 02:08:17 AM

Quote from: Batman on July 02, 2021, 12:52:12 AMwhy don't people complain about 3.5's heavily (and I mean, it's very gamist) mindset towards the usage of minis, Ex abilities recharging on the day or x/day? And why not NOW, as 5e heavily steals ideas and concepts from a system so hated? Literally, the Warlock lore is pure 4e. Short Rest mechanics ARE encounter powers. Hit Die healing ARE healing surges. Not a peep of "too gamist / WoW" buuuuut all the same ground work and implementation.

Presentation mostly. 4E took pains to present abilities in a way that was highly encapsulated, using keywords to explicitly define the game-relevant powers. 5E explicitly doesn't do this, instead basically everything is expressed in a natural language style.

Yes, this is something that I really felt was one of the crux issues people had initially when even looking at 4E. The color-coded boxes of "power" and the nice, crisp way in which it was detailed. Compared to the aged old look of 3e books (which I prefer aesthetically anyways) and how things were written in more plain english and less mechanical jargon. For example, this is what 4E looked like:

Cleave; Fighter Attack 1
flavor text here
At-Will * Martial, Weapon
Standard Action
Target: One creature
Attack Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1 (W) + Str mod damage, and an enemy adjacent to you takes damage equal to your strength modifier.
21st Level Increase damage to 2(W).

Hell, it LOOKS like a spell from pretty much any other edition of D&D. Not surprising when people complained that all characters were "spellcasters" as it's certainly presented that way. Instead, it could've looked much more organic. Like this:

Cleave [Martial, Weapon]. With a great swing, you smash your weapon into your opponent and the momentum carries into his ally. When you hit a creature with an attack, deal 1(W) + your Strength modifier and an adjacent enemy takes damage equal to your Strength modifier. At 21st level, this increases to 2(W).

Not only does this look cleaner and easier to read, it's a lot shorter and takes up less page space. It still has keywords and mechanics jargon, but if flows better. This could've been done with nearly ALL the Fighter, Ranger, Rogue, and Warlord Powers as they're Martial in nature. It would have also allowed them to add some additional classes that weren't added, which pissed people off even more. I'd say that a significant amount could've been done with Cleric and Paladin weapon-based powers and just put the Implement spells/prayers into their own category. Had they done this and made it at least appear more like traditional D&D books, it might have gotten more people to at least play it before blatant criticizing it as "WoW on Paper".

I'm not saying that this is whole WHOLE reason why people were dismissive of 4E, but I think initial impressions are worth a LOT and it certainly didn't help itself when people were thumbing through the book and gave them an impression of Video-Game TTRPG.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic on July 02, 2021, 02:27:09 PM
I just mean that, explanation wise, both rage and stunning strike depend on something like endurance -- there's only so much adrenaline bursts you can have, so to speak.

But a martial technique is just about skill. You don't forget how to cleave after you cleave. There's no extra resource you're spending like ki, which exists in-game as well. (It's not some meta-currency.) Logically it should be more like Sneak Attack where you can always just do it when the conditions come up.

TBH I'm fine with that, for things like battlemaster in 5e.

But there are limitations on the 5E Fighter. Why can he only Action Surge 1/rest? He.....can't swing that many times ad-infinitum? Why? Same with the Battle Master. He can use Commander's Strike X/Rest. Do people just stop listening to him after his 4th command? "Gee, Gerrick is getting real uppity with his commands. You know what, I'm NOT going to make another attack just because he wants me to. I don't care what the bonus is OR that I can sneak attack again." It's just as jarring. Or even the Indomitable feature of the Fighter. What about the Cavalier in Xanathar's Guide? He can only use the Unwavering Mark ability a number of times equal to his Strength mod....that's really weird.

I know this is sort of beating a dead horse. Let me say that I accept and am fine with the mechanical limitations that these features have. They give a player a sense of resource-management that fuel drama and reward good decision making. They don't need to all have 100% naturalistic in-game reasoning to exist or function, much like the same way Hit Points don't make up a lot of sense, it's game-ist to a large degree. That's not terrible. And obviously the way 5E has been accepted and loved, people apparently easily overlook these limitations, why, and hows because in the end it's still fun to play. "Why can't my Fighter action surge at-will? Because it would break the game." IS a viable reason why it's not something they can do all the time. It doesn't make RL sense, but then D&D isn't supposed to mirror or mimic real life. What my issue is, that people are fine to overlook the dozens of ways in which non-magic classes have daily/rest limitations on their abilities BUT weren't able to do that with 4E.

Quote from: Zelen on July 03, 2021, 11:49:56 PM

Quote from: Slambo on July 03, 2021, 10:40:30 PM
And how does this explaination even work for daily powers, oh i pulled it off once and now even if they never saw it i can't do it. Thankfully the exact corcumsgance and position i needed came up this one time today so i could use it and will reliably happen tommorow.

I don't see why this is such a weird thing to conceive of. In sports lots of exceptional things happen due to in-the-moment circumstances that aren't easily repeatable. A soccer player may only score a goal on a bicycle kick rarely, but this doesn't mean that soccer players only have a 1/day bicycle kick maneuver. The circumstances where such a thing actually arises and can work are just rare.*

I Always likened Fighter (or more appropriately, Martial) limitations of Exploits to that of weight-lifting. When you're lifting weights you exhaust your muscles of a particular group - depending on what you're lifting. So a person starts off at the Bench Press and reps out 3 sets of 10 at 275-lbs, but the last 3-4 reps of his last set he definitely needed a spotter, otherwise he could've hurt himself. Now, that same guy - same day - hits up incline DB chest press at 75 lbs (total of 150-lbs). It's not as much as 275 so he can still get his 3 sets of 10 but it's a LOT harder. To link this back to D&D, a Fighter Daily power is similar to his main bench press. Once he's exhausted the power necessary to pull off that attack, he's going to need time to recoup. The level of the Exploit determines JUST how difficult a stunt like that was. He just doesn't have the energy to pull something like that today. Lower-level attacks act, similarly, to other lifts at lesser weight. HE can't put up 275 again, but he can hit the decline bench at 200 because it's a different movement and targets different parts of the same muscle. He can then hit up DB Chest Fly at 35-lbs because, again, same muscle group but less weight.

At least, thats how I looked at it. The situational rationale can work, but I feel it's too forced as a organic mechanical to explain why someone can't Villain's Menace more than 1/day. Also, it's a damn game and not a Real-Life Simulator. We have a 1,000s lb dragon spewing breath from it's face while it flies 3 miles in the sky and the dude next to me literally melted someone with a ball of fire and the issue is me pulling off a crazy sword stunt???

An explanation for martial dailies that I liked was they are narrative-based powers.

If you've ever watched Voltron, you know that when the big fight occurs, Voltron will spend some time shooting rockets and lasers, and wrestling around with the monster robot of the day, but that eventually Voltron is going to be pushed into a corner, so to speak, at which point he pulls out the big honkin' sword and slices the monster in half. Every single time.

The 4ighter has a similar situation. He only pulls off this amazing daily-use power when it makes sense narratively. Maybe that is at the first of the fight, to put the fear into the enemy. Maybe it is in the middle of the fight, to allow the team to back up and refresh. Maybe it is when the fighter is the last one standing. Maybe the team has had a curb stomp battle, and the fighter wants to perform an over-the-top maneuver to end the fight. The story is emergent, and all that jazz.

The fighter doesn't keep spamming brutal strike because he can't, but because the narrative dictates that this is his big trick, to wow the observer and cause the team to cheer. Something like that.