Quote from: Cave Bear on July 03, 2021, 01:55:58 PM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 01:47:53 PM
its alright. I will pick up weapon Expertise, more accuracy is always welcome.

Awesome! Have fun, and remember to sound your barbaric yawp over the roofs of the world.

Hah, will do, again thanks.

The conventional Wisdom for Barbarians is to raise Dex and Str and stick with what you get with Con as a starting character.

Just choose powers that don't rely two heavily on Con (or Cha) for their effect.  There's lots of them and you don't really need your secondary ability.  Con doesn't do enough for you in 4e to make it worth giving up your AC.

There's not a lot you can do about your Wil Defence as a Ragebon.  A Thaneborn is slightly better.  Due to scaling everyone always ends up with one crap defence.  Patch it up with Iron Will as best you can.

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 01:15:17 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:32:18 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:23:09 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:03:39 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 10:56:33 AM
  I can not really help, as I never played 4e (or 3e, or 2e) but I am curious as to why your DM decided 4e was the go to for a game.  I know 4e was not terribly popular, and I suspect with many people here the least popular version of D&D and maybe one of the least popular RPGs period.

It was mostly because we wanted a change from 5e and our DM really enjoyed playing 4e, and we decided to give it a chance. Thanks for the reply.

   Did he tell you what he enjoyed about it?  Might I ask his/your age range?  I wonder if it was the first RPG he ever played.  I find there is always a nostalgic attachment to the first RPG game a person plays.

Without going into specific ages I think he is about 10 years my senior and and he has been playing TTRPGs for 30 years, if I am not mistaken he first got into D&D with 2E.

As for why he liked it, he mentioned that he liked how tactical the combat is and how much options the characters have with the power system and how most of the classes were more else balanced. Which is something the entire group showed interest in as we were not fans of how martial characters were most of the time behind casters in 5e.

    At least in the past casters had a bit of a "deadly" phase to get past to become super powerful.  Now they come out of the box tossing ranged energy bolts and are hard to kill (past a TPK).   Used to be, they hit a magic missile, sleep spell and hid in the middle throwing darts and hoping not to get hit, till level 5 and then they added that nuke... which drew all the aggro from any survivors.    For my taste 5e actually has quite a few "magic" powers for martial characters I dont care all that much for either. 

    I think alot of this is due to the assumption I felt Gygax had in 1st ed was that the party would ALWAYS try to attack by surprise or from a position where they pulled enemies towards them.  3e on seems to always assume even footing for fights and complete lack of strategy (and more reliance on real time tactics once the fight started..well check that I guess rampant powergaming in 3e can be construed to some degree as strategy) from players to hedge encounters back in their favor.   Ah well, I am sure someone will be along who can actually help with this.  For my part I do not Gm 5e either (and only play rarely).

The group I am playing with and I are growing pretty tired 5e as well. Currently I am DMing a Curse of Strahd campaign and we are near the end we are all eager to try out a new system as we feel the options in battle are quite limited, especially at low levels and Curse of Strahd only goes up to level 10.

Quote from: Cave Bear on July 03, 2021, 01:05:55 PM
Hi, Sellsword. Don't sweat the armor class. I've played alongside barbarians in 4E before. If you are using your Rageblood Vigor right, you will be swimming in temporary hit points. You can tank hits. You'll be fine.

Thanks a lot for the advice, do you recommend I focus on raising Constitution or to also raise Dexterity at least to a certain number?

    What are you considering for systems?  One of the reasons I am not the biggest D&D fan is I do enjoy combat options.  I trend more of a Sword and Sorcery vibe versus High Fantasy.

Quote from: TJS on July 03, 2021, 05:51:33 PM
The conventional Wisdom for Barbarians is to raise Dex and Str and stick with what you get with Con as a starting character.

Just choose powers that don't rely two heavily on Con (or Cha) for their effect.  There's lots of them and you don't really need your secondary ability.  Con doesn't do enough for you in 4e to make it worth giving up your AC.

There's not a lot you can do about your Wil Defence as a Ragebon.  A Thaneborn is slightly better.  Due to scaling everyone always ends up with one crap defence.  Patch it up with Iron Will as best you can.

Thanks for the input. Will Having high HP and temp HP from powers and class features not be enough to let me survive? I mean if I go with the strategy you are suggesting I would be limiting myself severely when it comes to power selection especially since I do not have access to all the 4e content, only limited to the 4 books I have mentioned previously.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:02:54 PM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 01:15:17 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:32:18 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:23:09 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:03:39 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 10:56:33 AM
  I can not really help, as I never played 4e (or 3e, or 2e) but I am curious as to why your DM decided 4e was the go to for a game.  I know 4e was not terribly popular, and I suspect with many people here the least popular version of D&D and maybe one of the least popular RPGs period.

It was mostly because we wanted a change from 5e and our DM really enjoyed playing 4e, and we decided to give it a chance. Thanks for the reply.

   Did he tell you what he enjoyed about it?  Might I ask his/your age range?  I wonder if it was the first RPG he ever played.  I find there is always a nostalgic attachment to the first RPG game a person plays.

Without going into specific ages I think he is about 10 years my senior and and he has been playing TTRPGs for 30 years, if I am not mistaken he first got into D&D with 2E.

As for why he liked it, he mentioned that he liked how tactical the combat is and how much options the characters have with the power system and how most of the classes were more else balanced. Which is something the entire group showed interest in as we were not fans of how martial characters were most of the time behind casters in 5e.

    At least in the past casters had a bit of a "deadly" phase to get past to become super powerful.  Now they come out of the box tossing ranged energy bolts and are hard to kill (past a TPK).   Used to be, they hit a magic missile, sleep spell and hid in the middle throwing darts and hoping not to get hit, till level 5 and then they added that nuke... which drew all the aggro from any survivors.    For my taste 5e actually has quite a few "magic" powers for martial characters I dont care all that much for either. 

    I think alot of this is due to the assumption I felt Gygax had in 1st ed was that the party would ALWAYS try to attack by surprise or from a position where they pulled enemies towards them.  3e on seems to always assume even footing for fights and complete lack of strategy (and more reliance on real time tactics once the fight started..well check that I guess rampant powergaming in 3e can be construed to some degree as strategy) from players to hedge encounters back in their favor.   Ah well, I am sure someone will be along who can actually help with this.  For my part I do not Gm 5e either (and only play rarely).

The group I am playing with and I are growing pretty tired 5e as well. Currently I am DMing a Curse of Strahd campaign and we are near the end we are all eager to try out a new system as we feel the options in battle are quite limited, especially at low levels and Curse of Strahd only goes up to level 10.

Quote from: Cave Bear on July 03, 2021, 01:05:55 PM
Hi, Sellsword. Don't sweat the armor class. I've played alongside barbarians in 4E before. If you are using your Rageblood Vigor right, you will be swimming in temporary hit points. You can tank hits. You'll be fine.

Thanks a lot for the advice, do you recommend I focus on raising Constitution or to also raise Dexterity at least to a certain number?

    What are you considering for systems?  One of the reasons I am not the biggest D&D fan is I do enjoy combat options.  I trend more of a Sword and Sorcery vibe versus High Fantasy.

Aside from 4e we talked about savage lands(I think that's what the game is called?), don't know much about it to be honest, our DM brought it up before and was speaking very favorably about it. Can you recommend any sword and sorcery rpgs?

Howdy!

As one of the 4E fans here, your build looks pretty solid. I don't know if you can change around your abilities or not (it's unnecessary, but helpful) but putting Con to 16 will help a lot. If not, no biggie Con 14, Dex 14 is still decent. I'd advise you to also keep Strength at 18 because that's your main schtick.

For feats, I understand your hesitancy on AC. Hide armor, plus Dex, and Barbarian Agility puts you at AC 16, which is typical of most Striker roles. Keep in mind that in 4E, you're not designed to 'tank' (that's the defender's job, so let them worry about keeping baddies off of you). You want to hit as HARD as you possibly can and deal significant amounts of Damage in a hurry. So instead of worrying about your AC, focus more on your class features. Improved Rageblood Vigor (Player's Handbook 2) adds 5 temporary hit points plus your normal Constitution modifier (of +2) for a total of 7. This is when you drop ANY enemy to 0 hit points, including minions - which is going to be amazing. And because you're Rageblood, you get Swift Charge - allowing you a free Charge attack when you drop an enemy to 0 (so two attacks at least 1/encounter). Another feat you might want to consider is Power Attack (Player's Handbook). I'm assuming you're using a big two-handed weapon, so a -2 Attack for a (+3/+6/+9) damage modifier with it will help immensely, especially if you keep up with flanking enemies to negate that -2 penalty to attack. This might be a good feat to pick up at 2nd or 4th level. Weapon Expertise, if you're allowed it, is a must as the way the math lines up you'll be needed the boost to Attack mods as you progress. I always give my players their choice of Expertise at 1st and Improved Defenses at 4th.

And always keep in mind your Rampage feature. Getting Crits to give you more attacks a turn is pretty amazing, especially when people need special powers OR use their Action Point to get the same effect.

For your At-Wills, they look fine. You can use Howling Strike in conjunction with your Swift Charge feature because Howling Strike says you can use this in place of a Melee Basic Attack. ALSO, this comes in handy if the Warlord in your party starts giving out free attacks with say....Commander's Strike, you can use Howling Strike for these as well. So basically you're going to use At-Wills depending on the situation your in. If you get hit a lot, and need that boost, then Recuperating Strike is the way to go to get more Temp HP (they don't stack with Rageblood, but overlap). For more standard attacks, Devestating Strike is the way to go and use Howling Strike when appropriate for Charges, Melee Basics, etc.

Encounter Powers: Tough call, with the options allowed, but I think i'd choose between Avalanche Strike (for extra damage, despite the opening you create for better attacks against you) or Great Cleave. Close Burst 1 powers are REALLY potent for minion slaying can you can pull off some fun stunts with slaying 3 minions with Great Cleave and then Charging the "actual" bad-guy.

Daily Powers: another tough call, but this is far more to do with your playstyle than really great power choices. I like Macetail Behemoth for the Close Burst 1 trip and more Temporary Hit points OR the Swift Panther Rage for the extra fast movement to set up Charges more.

Last thoughts; Think of a really good weapon. Most of the PHB ones are....meh....but if you can get your DM to agree to a Superior Weapon (Mordenkrad, Full-blade, Gouge) then it's worth it. For now, stick with a Greatsword or a similar weapon, as the +3 Proficiency Bonus will be really helpful at low levels and accuracy. For any further guidance on Barbarians in 4E, there's a few helpful Handbooks out there for most of the builds and info on how to play them well - tactics wise - but I always favor Lord Duskblade's guides as they're well sourced and he gives great advice. YOu can find Lord Duskblade's Appetite for Destruction: Barbarian Handbook HERE

Quote from: Sellsword on July 04, 2021, 09:02:22 AM

Quote from: TJS on July 03, 2021, 05:51:33 PM
The conventional Wisdom for Barbarians is to raise Dex and Str and stick with what you get with Con as a starting character.

Just choose powers that don't rely two heavily on Con (or Cha) for their effect.  There's lots of them and you don't really need your secondary ability.  Con doesn't do enough for you in 4e to make it worth giving up your AC.

There's not a lot you can do about your Wil Defence as a Ragebon.  A Thaneborn is slightly better.  Due to scaling everyone always ends up with one crap defence.  Patch it up with Iron Will as best you can.

Thanks for the input. Will Having high HP and temp HP from powers and class features not be enough to let me survive? I mean if I go with the strategy you are suggesting I would be limiting myself severely when it comes to power selection especially since I do not have access to all the 4e content, only limited to the 4 books I have mentioned previously.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:02:54 PM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 01:15:17 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:32:18 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:23:09 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:03:39 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 10:56:33 AM
  I can not really help, as I never played 4e (or 3e, or 2e) but I am curious as to why your DM decided 4e was the go to for a game.  I know 4e was not terribly popular, and I suspect with many people here the least popular version of D&D and maybe one of the least popular RPGs period.

It was mostly because we wanted a change from 5e and our DM really enjoyed playing 4e, and we decided to give it a chance. Thanks for the reply.

   Did he tell you what he enjoyed about it?  Might I ask his/your age range?  I wonder if it was the first RPG he ever played.  I find there is always a nostalgic attachment to the first RPG game a person plays.

Without going into specific ages I think he is about 10 years my senior and and he has been playing TTRPGs for 30 years, if I am not mistaken he first got into D&D with 2E.

As for why he liked it, he mentioned that he liked how tactical the combat is and how much options the characters have with the power system and how most of the classes were more else balanced. Which is something the entire group showed interest in as we were not fans of how martial characters were most of the time behind casters in 5e.

    At least in the past casters had a bit of a "deadly" phase to get past to become super powerful.  Now they come out of the box tossing ranged energy bolts and are hard to kill (past a TPK).   Used to be, they hit a magic missile, sleep spell and hid in the middle throwing darts and hoping not to get hit, till level 5 and then they added that nuke... which drew all the aggro from any survivors.    For my taste 5e actually has quite a few "magic" powers for martial characters I dont care all that much for either. 

    I think alot of this is due to the assumption I felt Gygax had in 1st ed was that the party would ALWAYS try to attack by surprise or from a position where they pulled enemies towards them.  3e on seems to always assume even footing for fights and complete lack of strategy (and more reliance on real time tactics once the fight started..well check that I guess rampant powergaming in 3e can be construed to some degree as strategy) from players to hedge encounters back in their favor.   Ah well, I am sure someone will be along who can actually help with this.  For my part I do not Gm 5e either (and only play rarely).

The group I am playing with and I are growing pretty tired 5e as well. Currently I am DMing a Curse of Strahd campaign and we are near the end we are all eager to try out a new system as we feel the options in battle are quite limited, especially at low levels and Curse of Strahd only goes up to level 10.

Quote from: Cave Bear on July 03, 2021, 01:05:55 PM
Hi, Sellsword. Don't sweat the armor class. I've played alongside barbarians in 4E before. If you are using your Rageblood Vigor right, you will be swimming in temporary hit points. You can tank hits. You'll be fine.

Thanks a lot for the advice, do you recommend I focus on raising Constitution or to also raise Dexterity at least to a certain number?

    What are you considering for systems?  One of the reasons I am not the biggest D&D fan is I do enjoy combat options.  I trend more of a Sword and Sorcery vibe versus High Fantasy.

Aside from 4e we talked about savage lands(I think that's what the game is called?), don't know much about it to be honest, our DM brought it up before and was speaking very favorably about it. Can you recommend any sword and sorcery rpgs?

  I have used GURPS Conan for years.  I have also run Sword and Sorcery with Savage Worlds (I think that is what you are referring to) and it is very good for Pulp, and they have a setting that is Sword and Sorcery (Beasts and Barbarians).  I have also recently picked up Mythras and Jackals, both are less general systems and seem engineered to Sword and Sorcery.   Those would be my top choices (GURPS you could run with the free lite rules you can download, and the Conan setting book has been reprinted and you can get a physical copy now).  Can not go wrong with any of those choices IMO. 

   If you have a DM who already favors Savage Worlds though, I highly recommend you give it a try. 

Quote from: Batman on July 04, 2021, 11:08:46 AM
Howdy!

As one of the 4E fans here, your build looks pretty solid. I don't know if you can change around your abilities or not (it's unnecessary, but helpful) but putting Con to 16 will help a lot. If not, no biggie Con 14, Dex 14 is still decent. I'd advise you to also keep Strength at 18 because that's your main schtick.

For feats, I understand your hesitancy on AC. Hide armor, plus Dex, and Barbarian Agility puts you at AC 16, which is typical of most Striker roles. Keep in mind that in 4E, you're not designed to 'tank' (that's the defender's job, so let them worry about keeping baddies off of you). You want to hit as HARD as you possibly can and deal significant amounts of Damage in a hurry. So instead of worrying about your AC, focus more on your class features. Improved Rageblood Vigor (Player's Handbook 2) adds 5 temporary hit points plus your normal Constitution modifier (of +2) for a total of 7. This is when you drop ANY enemy to 0 hit points, including minions - which is going to be amazing. And because you're Rageblood, you get Swift Charge - allowing you a free Charge attack when you drop an enemy to 0 (so two attacks at least 1/encounter). Another feat you might want to consider is Power Attack (Player's Handbook). I'm assuming you're using a big two-handed weapon, so a -2 Attack for a (+3/+6/+9) damage modifier with it will help immensely, especially if you keep up with flanking enemies to negate that -2 penalty to attack. This might be a good feat to pick up at 2nd or 4th level. Weapon Expertise, if you're allowed it, is a must as the way the math lines up you'll be needed the boost to Attack mods as you progress. I always give my players their choice of Expertise at 1st and Improved Defenses at 4th.

And always keep in mind your Rampage feature. Getting Crits to give you more attacks a turn is pretty amazing, especially when people need special powers OR use their Action Point to get the same effect.

For your At-Wills, they look fine. You can use Howling Strike in conjunction with your Swift Charge feature because Howling Strike says you can use this in place of a Melee Basic Attack. ALSO, this comes in handy if the Warlord in your party starts giving out free attacks with say....Commander's Strike, you can use Howling Strike for these as well. So basically you're going to use At-Wills depending on the situation your in. If you get hit a lot, and need that boost, then Recuperating Strike is the way to go to get more Temp HP (they don't stack with Rageblood, but overlap). For more standard attacks, Devestating Strike is the way to go and use Howling Strike when appropriate for Charges, Melee Basics, etc.

Encounter Powers: Tough call, with the options allowed, but I think i'd choose between Avalanche Strike (for extra damage, despite the opening you create for better attacks against you) or Great Cleave. Close Burst 1 powers are REALLY potent for minion slaying can you can pull off some fun stunts with slaying 3 minions with Great Cleave and then Charging the "actual" bad-guy.

Daily Powers: another tough call, but this is far more to do with your playstyle than really great power choices. I like Macetail Behemoth for the Close Burst 1 trip and more Temporary Hit points OR the Swift Panther Rage for the extra fast movement to set up Charges more.

Last thoughts; Think of a really good weapon. Most of the PHB ones are....meh....but if you can get your DM to agree to a Superior Weapon (Mordenkrad, Full-blade, Gouge) then it's worth it. For now, stick with a Greatsword or a similar weapon, as the +3 Proficiency Bonus will be really helpful at low levels and accuracy. For any further guidance on Barbarians in 4E, there's a few helpful Handbooks out there for most of the builds and info on how to play them well - tactics wise - but I always favor Lord Duskblade's guides as they're well sourced and he gives great advice. YOu can find Lord Duskblade's Appetite for Destruction: Barbarian Handbook HERE

Hello, thanks a lot of the super detailed answered. I will try my best not to over worry about the AC and focus on accuracy, damage and temp hp. I don't think my DM will allow any of the books that have these weapons so I was planning to pick a great axe or greatsword, but I think greatsword should work better as it is more accurate.

I have been thinking about great cleave as an encounter power, as I wanted a close burst power for minion clearing. As for daily  power I think I will probably go with what you suggested; swift panther rage's speed increase and option of stronger shifts is pretty tempting.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 04, 2021, 11:18:58 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 04, 2021, 09:02:22 AM

Quote from: TJS on July 03, 2021, 05:51:33 PM
The conventional Wisdom for Barbarians is to raise Dex and Str and stick with what you get with Con as a starting character.

Just choose powers that don't rely two heavily on Con (or Cha) for their effect.  There's lots of them and you don't really need your secondary ability.  Con doesn't do enough for you in 4e to make it worth giving up your AC.

There's not a lot you can do about your Wil Defence as a Ragebon.  A Thaneborn is slightly better.  Due to scaling everyone always ends up with one crap defence.  Patch it up with Iron Will as best you can.

Thanks for the input. Will Having high HP and temp HP from powers and class features not be enough to let me survive? I mean if I go with the strategy you are suggesting I would be limiting myself severely when it comes to power selection especially since I do not have access to all the 4e content, only limited to the 4 books I have mentioned previously.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:02:54 PM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 01:15:17 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:32:18 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:23:09 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:03:39 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 10:56:33 AM
  I can not really help, as I never played 4e (or 3e, or 2e) but I am curious as to why your DM decided 4e was the go to for a game.  I know 4e was not terribly popular, and I suspect with many people here the least popular version of D&D and maybe one of the least popular RPGs period.

It was mostly because we wanted a change from 5e and our DM really enjoyed playing 4e, and we decided to give it a chance. Thanks for the reply.

   Did he tell you what he enjoyed about it?  Might I ask his/your age range?  I wonder if it was the first RPG he ever played.  I find there is always a nostalgic attachment to the first RPG game a person plays.

Without going into specific ages I think he is about 10 years my senior and and he has been playing TTRPGs for 30 years, if I am not mistaken he first got into D&D with 2E.

As for why he liked it, he mentioned that he liked how tactical the combat is and how much options the characters have with the power system and how most of the classes were more else balanced. Which is something the entire group showed interest in as we were not fans of how martial characters were most of the time behind casters in 5e.

    At least in the past casters had a bit of a "deadly" phase to get past to become super powerful.  Now they come out of the box tossing ranged energy bolts and are hard to kill (past a TPK).   Used to be, they hit a magic missile, sleep spell and hid in the middle throwing darts and hoping not to get hit, till level 5 and then they added that nuke... which drew all the aggro from any survivors.    For my taste 5e actually has quite a few "magic" powers for martial characters I dont care all that much for either. 

    I think alot of this is due to the assumption I felt Gygax had in 1st ed was that the party would ALWAYS try to attack by surprise or from a position where they pulled enemies towards them.  3e on seems to always assume even footing for fights and complete lack of strategy (and more reliance on real time tactics once the fight started..well check that I guess rampant powergaming in 3e can be construed to some degree as strategy) from players to hedge encounters back in their favor.   Ah well, I am sure someone will be along who can actually help with this.  For my part I do not Gm 5e either (and only play rarely).

The group I am playing with and I are growing pretty tired 5e as well. Currently I am DMing a Curse of Strahd campaign and we are near the end we are all eager to try out a new system as we feel the options in battle are quite limited, especially at low levels and Curse of Strahd only goes up to level 10.

Quote from: Cave Bear on July 03, 2021, 01:05:55 PM
Hi, Sellsword. Don't sweat the armor class. I've played alongside barbarians in 4E before. If you are using your Rageblood Vigor right, you will be swimming in temporary hit points. You can tank hits. You'll be fine.

Thanks a lot for the advice, do you recommend I focus on raising Constitution or to also raise Dexterity at least to a certain number?

    What are you considering for systems?  One of the reasons I am not the biggest D&D fan is I do enjoy combat options.  I trend more of a Sword and Sorcery vibe versus High Fantasy.

Aside from 4e we talked about savage lands(I think that's what the game is called?), don't know much about it to be honest, our DM brought it up before and was speaking very favorably about it. Can you recommend any sword and sorcery rpgs?

  I have used GURPS Conan for years.  I have also run Sword and Sorcery with Savage Worlds (I think that is what you are referring to) and it is very good for Pulp, and they have a setting that is Sword and Sorcery (Beasts and Barbarians).  I have also recently picked up Mythras and Jackals, both are less general systems and seem engineered to Sword and Sorcery.   Those would be my top choices (GURPS you could run with the free lite rules you can download, and the Conan setting book has been reprinted and you can get a physical copy now).  Can not go wrong with any of those choices IMO. 

   If you have a DM who already favors Savage Worlds though, I highly recommend you give it a try. 

Thanks a lot for the many suggestions and yes, Savage Worlds is what I was thinking of. I think we will probably try Savage Worlds after we are done with 4e(which will probably last a while if the group likes it). It will be a nice change of pace, as we have mostly been a d&d focused group, well there was that one time we played Mage: The Ascension but most of the group didn't enjoy the core idea of the game and its setting, although we did like utilizing a different dice rolling system than rolling a d20. 

Quote from: Sellsword on July 04, 2021, 09:02:22 AM

Quote from: TJS on July 03, 2021, 05:51:33 PM
The conventional Wisdom for Barbarians is to raise Dex and Str and stick with what you get with Con as a starting character.

Just choose powers that don't rely two heavily on Con (or Cha) for their effect.  There's lots of them and you don't really need your secondary ability.  Con doesn't do enough for you in 4e to make it worth giving up your AC.

There's not a lot you can do about your Wil Defence as a Ragebon.  A Thaneborn is slightly better.  Due to scaling everyone always ends up with one crap defence.  Patch it up with Iron Will as best you can.

Thanks for the input. Will Having high HP and temp HP from powers and class features not be enough to let me survive? I mean if I go with the strategy you are suggesting I would be limiting myself severely when it comes to power selection especially since I do not have access to all the 4e content, only limited to the 4 books I have mentioned previously.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:02:54 PM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 01:15:17 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:32:18 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:23:09 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:03:39 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 10:56:33 AM
  I can not really help, as I never played 4e (or 3e, or 2e) but I am curious as to why your DM decided 4e was the go to for a game.  I know 4e was not terribly popular, and I suspect with many people here the least popular version of D&D and maybe one of the least popular RPGs period.

It was mostly because we wanted a change from 5e and our DM really enjoyed playing 4e, and we decided to give it a chance. Thanks for the reply.

   Did he tell you what he enjoyed about it?  Might I ask his/your age range?  I wonder if it was the first RPG he ever played.  I find there is always a nostalgic attachment to the first RPG game a person plays.

Without going into specific ages I think he is about 10 years my senior and and he has been playing TTRPGs for 30 years, if I am not mistaken he first got into D&D with 2E.

As for why he liked it, he mentioned that he liked how tactical the combat is and how much options the characters have with the power system and how most of the classes were more else balanced. Which is something the entire group showed interest in as we were not fans of how martial characters were most of the time behind casters in 5e.

    At least in the past casters had a bit of a "deadly" phase to get past to become super powerful.  Now they come out of the box tossing ranged energy bolts and are hard to kill (past a TPK).   Used to be, they hit a magic missile, sleep spell and hid in the middle throwing darts and hoping not to get hit, till level 5 and then they added that nuke... which drew all the aggro from any survivors.    For my taste 5e actually has quite a few "magic" powers for martial characters I dont care all that much for either. 

    I think alot of this is due to the assumption I felt Gygax had in 1st ed was that the party would ALWAYS try to attack by surprise or from a position where they pulled enemies towards them.  3e on seems to always assume even footing for fights and complete lack of strategy (and more reliance on real time tactics once the fight started..well check that I guess rampant powergaming in 3e can be construed to some degree as strategy) from players to hedge encounters back in their favor.   Ah well, I am sure someone will be along who can actually help with this.  For my part I do not Gm 5e either (and only play rarely).

The group I am playing with and I are growing pretty tired 5e as well. Currently I am DMing a Curse of Strahd campaign and we are near the end we are all eager to try out a new system as we feel the options in battle are quite limited, especially at low levels and Curse of Strahd only goes up to level 10.

Quote from: Cave Bear on July 03, 2021, 01:05:55 PM
Hi, Sellsword. Don't sweat the armor class. I've played alongside barbarians in 4E before. If you are using your Rageblood Vigor right, you will be swimming in temporary hit points. You can tank hits. You'll be fine.

Thanks a lot for the advice, do you recommend I focus on raising Constitution or to also raise Dexterity at least to a certain number?

    What are you considering for systems?  One of the reasons I am not the biggest D&D fan is I do enjoy combat options.  I trend more of a Sword and Sorcery vibe versus High Fantasy.

Aside from 4e we talked about savage lands(I think that's what the game is called?), don't know much about it to be honest, our DM brought it up before and was speaking very favorably about it. Can you recommend any sword and sorcery rpgs?

'

How much is enough?  Potentially temp HPs can be enough.  It depends how you want to play it and how much of your hardball your GM is.

If you have a dedicated defender then you can get by without good AC. 

It's all a bit of a trade-off.  Tactically the more damage you are able to do, the more you become a high value target in return.  If you are confident that another PC that successfully prevent you from taking too many hits then you can neglect AC a bit.

But also, in 4e it's not just the hits you want to worry about.  It's also the riders on the hits.

Quote from: TJS on July 04, 2021, 10:41:04 PM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 04, 2021, 09:02:22 AM

Quote from: TJS on July 03, 2021, 05:51:33 PM
The conventional Wisdom for Barbarians is to raise Dex and Str and stick with what you get with Con as a starting character.

Just choose powers that don't rely two heavily on Con (or Cha) for their effect.  There's lots of them and you don't really need your secondary ability.  Con doesn't do enough for you in 4e to make it worth giving up your AC.

There's not a lot you can do about your Wil Defence as a Ragebon.  A Thaneborn is slightly better.  Due to scaling everyone always ends up with one crap defence.  Patch it up with Iron Will as best you can.

Thanks for the input. Will Having high HP and temp HP from powers and class features not be enough to let me survive? I mean if I go with the strategy you are suggesting I would be limiting myself severely when it comes to power selection especially since I do not have access to all the 4e content, only limited to the 4 books I have mentioned previously.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:02:54 PM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 01:15:17 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:32:18 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:23:09 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:03:39 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 10:56:33 AM
  I can not really help, as I never played 4e (or 3e, or 2e) but I am curious as to why your DM decided 4e was the go to for a game.  I know 4e was not terribly popular, and I suspect with many people here the least popular version of D&D and maybe one of the least popular RPGs period.

It was mostly because we wanted a change from 5e and our DM really enjoyed playing 4e, and we decided to give it a chance. Thanks for the reply.

   Did he tell you what he enjoyed about it?  Might I ask his/your age range?  I wonder if it was the first RPG he ever played.  I find there is always a nostalgic attachment to the first RPG game a person plays.

Without going into specific ages I think he is about 10 years my senior and and he has been playing TTRPGs for 30 years, if I am not mistaken he first got into D&D with 2E.

As for why he liked it, he mentioned that he liked how tactical the combat is and how much options the characters have with the power system and how most of the classes were more else balanced. Which is something the entire group showed interest in as we were not fans of how martial characters were most of the time behind casters in 5e.

    At least in the past casters had a bit of a "deadly" phase to get past to become super powerful.  Now they come out of the box tossing ranged energy bolts and are hard to kill (past a TPK).   Used to be, they hit a magic missile, sleep spell and hid in the middle throwing darts and hoping not to get hit, till level 5 and then they added that nuke... which drew all the aggro from any survivors.    For my taste 5e actually has quite a few "magic" powers for martial characters I dont care all that much for either. 

    I think alot of this is due to the assumption I felt Gygax had in 1st ed was that the party would ALWAYS try to attack by surprise or from a position where they pulled enemies towards them.  3e on seems to always assume even footing for fights and complete lack of strategy (and more reliance on real time tactics once the fight started..well check that I guess rampant powergaming in 3e can be construed to some degree as strategy) from players to hedge encounters back in their favor.   Ah well, I am sure someone will be along who can actually help with this.  For my part I do not Gm 5e either (and only play rarely).

The group I am playing with and I are growing pretty tired 5e as well. Currently I am DMing a Curse of Strahd campaign and we are near the end we are all eager to try out a new system as we feel the options in battle are quite limited, especially at low levels and Curse of Strahd only goes up to level 10.

Quote from: Cave Bear on July 03, 2021, 01:05:55 PM
Hi, Sellsword. Don't sweat the armor class. I've played alongside barbarians in 4E before. If you are using your Rageblood Vigor right, you will be swimming in temporary hit points. You can tank hits. You'll be fine.

Thanks a lot for the advice, do you recommend I focus on raising Constitution or to also raise Dexterity at least to a certain number?

    What are you considering for systems?  One of the reasons I am not the biggest D&D fan is I do enjoy combat options.  I trend more of a Sword and Sorcery vibe versus High Fantasy.

Aside from 4e we talked about savage lands(I think that's what the game is called?), don't know much about it to be honest, our DM brought it up before and was speaking very favorably about it. Can you recommend any sword and sorcery rpgs?

'

How much is enough?  Potentially temp HPs can be enough.  It depends how you want to play it and how much of your hardball your GM is.

If you have a dedicated defender then you can get by without good AC. 

It's all a bit of a trade-off.  Tactically the more damage you are able to do, the more you become a high value target in return.  If you are confident that another PC that successfully prevent you from taking too many hits then you can neglect AC a bit.

But also, in 4e it's not just the hits you want to worry about.  It's also the riders on the hits.

I know that one of the group will end up playing a Defender, he has not decided which Defender he will go with though.

When you say riders, do you mean control effects and debuffs that require a saving throw? If so I am planning to pick up some of the human racial feats at a later point in the game that help you succeed at saving throws. Can't remember their names at the moment I think one of them was called Human Perseverance and their was another that gave you a +2 if you don't have any action points left.

Quote from: Sellsword on July 05, 2021, 05:30:53 AM
When you say riders, do you mean control effects and debuffs that require a saving throw? If so I am planning to pick up some of the human racial feats at a later point in the game that help you succeed at saving throws. Can't remember their names at the moment I think one of them was called Human Perseverance and their was another that gave you a +2 if you don't have any action points left.

Yeah, often times monsters will have debilitating effects that might slow you or weaken you. One of the worst ones is Dazed as it forces you down to 1 action on your turn. There's a few magic items that help and the feats you suggested too.

Quote from: Batman on July 05, 2021, 06:22:36 AM
Yeah, often times monsters will have debilitating effects that might slow you or weaken you. One of the worst ones is Dazed as it forces you down to 1 action on your turn. There's a few magic items that help and the feats you suggested too.

Ironically, Rageblood barbarians are in the best position to deal with this; I once spent most of a combat as a Rageblood barbarian dazed and prone, and because we were in an enclosed room, I could charge, while prone, from target to target on my turn. 

But, to echo the other points, you will be quite fine with 14-ish Dex; go big with Str and Con, and recognize that just the the party Wizard will be structurally vulnerable to attacks on their Fort, you'll be structurally vulnerable to attacks on your AC.

Quote from: Batman on July 05, 2021, 06:22:36 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 05, 2021, 05:30:53 AM
When you say riders, do you mean control effects and debuffs that require a saving throw? If so I am planning to pick up some of the human racial feats at a later point in the game that help you succeed at saving throws. Can't remember their names at the moment I think one of them was called Human Perseverance and their was another that gave you a +2 if you don't have any action points left.

Yeah, often times monsters will have debilitating effects that might slow you or weaken you. One of the worst ones is Dazed as it forces you down to 1 action on your turn. There's a few magic items that help and the feats you suggested too.

Ah I see, makes me glad I picked Human so I will have access to those feats.

Quote from: robertliguori on July 05, 2021, 07:49:14 AM

Quote from: Batman on July 05, 2021, 06:22:36 AM
Yeah, often times monsters will have debilitating effects that might slow you or weaken you. One of the worst ones is Dazed as it forces you down to 1 action on your turn. There's a few magic items that help and the feats you suggested too.

Ironically, Rageblood barbarians are in the best position to deal with this; I once spent most of a combat as a Rageblood barbarian dazed and prone, and because we were in an enclosed room, I could charge, while prone, from target to target on my turn. 

But, to echo the other points, you will be quite fine with 14-ish Dex; go big with Str and Con, and recognize that just the the party Wizard will be structurally vulnerable to attacks on their Fort, you'll be structurally vulnerable to attacks on your AC.

I had an image in my mind of a barbarian crawling really quickly and tackling peoples legs because of the situation you described.

Makes sense that different classes and builds will have dissimilar strengths and weakness in their defensive numbers.

Quote from: Sellsword on July 05, 2021, 05:30:53 AM

Quote from: TJS on July 04, 2021, 10:41:04 PM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 04, 2021, 09:02:22 AM

Quote from: TJS on July 03, 2021, 05:51:33 PM
The conventional Wisdom for Barbarians is to raise Dex and Str and stick with what you get with Con as a starting character.

Just choose powers that don't rely two heavily on Con (or Cha) for their effect.  There's lots of them and you don't really need your secondary ability.  Con doesn't do enough for you in 4e to make it worth giving up your AC.

There's not a lot you can do about your Wil Defence as a Ragebon.  A Thaneborn is slightly better.  Due to scaling everyone always ends up with one crap defence.  Patch it up with Iron Will as best you can.

Thanks for the input. Will Having high HP and temp HP from powers and class features not be enough to let me survive? I mean if I go with the strategy you are suggesting I would be limiting myself severely when it comes to power selection especially since I do not have access to all the 4e content, only limited to the 4 books I have mentioned previously.

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:02:54 PM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 01:15:17 PM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:32:18 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:27:29 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 11:23:09 AM

Quote from: Sellsword on July 03, 2021, 11:03:39 AM

Quote from: oggsmash on July 03, 2021, 10:56:33 AM
  I can not really help, as I never played 4e (or 3e, or 2e) but I am curious as to why your DM decided 4e was the go to for a game.  I know 4e was not terribly popular, and I suspect with many people here the least popular version of D&D and maybe one of the least popular RPGs period.

It was mostly because we wanted a change from 5e and our DM really enjoyed playing 4e, and we decided to give it a chance. Thanks for the reply.

   Did he tell you what he enjoyed about it?  Might I ask his/your age range?  I wonder if it was the first RPG he ever played.  I find there is always a nostalgic attachment to the first RPG game a person plays.

Without going into specific ages I think he is about 10 years my senior and and he has been playing TTRPGs for 30 years, if I am not mistaken he first got into D&D with 2E.

As for why he liked it, he mentioned that he liked how tactical the combat is and how much options the characters have with the power system and how most of the classes were more else balanced. Which is something the entire group showed interest in as we were not fans of how martial characters were most of the time behind casters in 5e.

    At least in the past casters had a bit of a "deadly" phase to get past to become super powerful.  Now they come out of the box tossing ranged energy bolts and are hard to kill (past a TPK).   Used to be, they hit a magic missile, sleep spell and hid in the middle throwing darts and hoping not to get hit, till level 5 and then they added that nuke... which drew all the aggro from any survivors.    For my taste 5e actually has quite a few "magic" powers for martial characters I dont care all that much for either. 

    I think alot of this is due to the assumption I felt Gygax had in 1st ed was that the party would ALWAYS try to attack by surprise or from a position where they pulled enemies towards them.  3e on seems to always assume even footing for fights and complete lack of strategy (and more reliance on real time tactics once the fight started..well check that I guess rampant powergaming in 3e can be construed to some degree as strategy) from players to hedge encounters back in their favor.   Ah well, I am sure someone will be along who can actually help with this.  For my part I do not Gm 5e either (and only play rarely).

The group I am playing with and I are growing pretty tired 5e as well. Currently I am DMing a Curse of Strahd campaign and we are near the end we are all eager to try out a new system as we feel the options in battle are quite limited, especially at low levels and Curse of Strahd only goes up to level 10.

Quote from: Cave Bear on July 03, 2021, 01:05:55 PM
Hi, Sellsword. Don't sweat the armor class. I've played alongside barbarians in 4E before. If you are using your Rageblood Vigor right, you will be swimming in temporary hit points. You can tank hits. You'll be fine.

Thanks a lot for the advice, do you recommend I focus on raising Constitution or to also raise Dexterity at least to a certain number?

    What are you considering for systems?  One of the reasons I am not the biggest D&D fan is I do enjoy combat options.  I trend more of a Sword and Sorcery vibe versus High Fantasy.

Aside from 4e we talked about savage lands(I think that's what the game is called?), don't know much about it to be honest, our DM brought it up before and was speaking very favorably about it. Can you recommend any sword and sorcery rpgs?

'

How much is enough?  Potentially temp HPs can be enough.  It depends how you want to play it and how much of your hardball your GM is.

If you have a dedicated defender then you can get by without good AC. 

It's all a bit of a trade-off.  Tactically the more damage you are able to do, the more you become a high value target in return.  If you are confident that another PC that successfully prevent you from taking too many hits then you can neglect AC a bit.

But also, in 4e it's not just the hits you want to worry about.  It's also the riders on the hits.

I know that one of the group will end up playing a Defender, he has not decided which Defender he will go with though.

When you say riders, do you mean control effects and debuffs that require a saving throw? If so I am planning to pick up some of the human racial feats at a later point in the game that help you succeed at saving throws. Can't remember their names at the moment I think one of them was called Human Perseverance and their was another that gave you a +2 if you don't have any action points left.

Riders in 4e are things that happen when you get hit.

So the monster hits you and knocks you prone or dazes you.  In 4e you don't usually get a seperate saving throw against an effect.  You only get a saving throw on the second round if it's an ongoing effect.

This makes AC more valuable.  It's also means having a good Reflex Defence which Dex would get you is also important.  The issue with the Strength/Con Barbarian is that they not only have poor AC they also only have one good defence (Fortitude).

Persoanlly if I really wanted to not pump Dex, I would take the two feats for heavy armour.

Quote
Riders in 4e are things that happen when you get hit.

So the monster hits you and knocks you prone or dazes you.  In 4e you don't usually get a seperate saving throw against an effect.  You only get a saving throw on the second round if it's an ongoing effect.

This makes AC more valuable.  It's also means having a good Reflex Defence which Dex would get you is also important.  The issue with the Strength/Con Barbarian is that they not only have poor AC they also only have one good defence (Fortitude).

Persoanlly if I really wanted to not pump Dex, I would take the two feats for heavy armour.

I appreciate the input, but how much is enough AC and Reflex Defense? As a Level 1 Human Barbarian I am looking at the following defensive numbers:

AC: 16(Armor+Dex+Barb Agility)

Fortitude: 15(Con+Human Defense Bonus+Barb Bonus to Defense)

Reflex: 14(Dex+Human Defense Bonus+Barb Agility)

Will: 12(Wisdom+Human Defense Bonus)

So far will is the weakest defense I have on the character. Before hitting Paragon, I get two opportunities to add +1 to two ability scores of my choice, two of these increases will go to Str without question,  the other two will go to Con. I could add them to Dex, which would translate to a +1 increase in Initiative, AC and Reflex defense, but if I really wanted that increase in AC that badly I could start using a glaive or halberd and grab Hafted Defense for a +1 to AC and Reflex. When I hit Paragon tier Barbarian Agility gets better so that is another +1 to AC and Reflex, and Dexterity automatically gets raised from 14 to 15(No change in modifier).

At level 11, I am probably looking at a Reflex Defense of: 21(Dex+Human Defense Bonus+Barb Agility+Hafted Defense+Half character level rounded down)

AC: 18(Armour+Dex+Barb Agility+Hafted Defense)I am counting same armour as I had at level 1 as I am not sure at the rate we would get armour improvements or magic items at, so if you have this information please factor it in.

Taking Dex to 16 would raise these numbers by +1 each at 11th level, sure if I focus on Dex along with Strength up into the Epic tier and beyond I would see a very significant number of increases in AC and Reflex. Maybe up to a Dexterity of 22 at level 21? My math could be off VS. a Dexterity of 16 at level 21(assuming no increases at all, aside from the bonus we get at 11 and 21) so I would be short +3 AC and Reflex at level 21. I am unsure how much weight that carries in 4e as I haven't played it before.

Which is why I am asking how much is enough? Pooling all these resources into AC and Reflex would mean basically ignoring the Rageblood class feature and a number of powers, which would not only effect Temp HP but also my damage; I remember a barbarian power that gave you a number of attacks based on the modifier of  your Con, which seems pretty strong to me, as more attacks basically means more damage, the name of that power escapes me at the moment.

Again thanks for your input.

How much is enough is subjective.  It depends on a whole lot of things like your personal tolerance, the make up of your party, and how hardball the GM is playing.

I personally found being subject to control effects by monsters something I never much enjoyed so usually went for characters that could avoid them as much as possble.