Quote from: SettembriniPeopel like this aren´t getting D&D. The should be playing Runequest or somesuch.

Now this is something I don't get.

The D&D fans claim that D&D encompasses so much more than just killing and looting and levelling, that instead you can play so many different types of campaigns, and that D&D is able to model so many different flavours of the fantasy genre - sometimes with just a little tweaking.
But if someone wants to do just that they end up playing the game the wrong way?

("Badwrongfun", even?)

Quote from: Pierce InverarityD&D is about gaining levels. You can't remove them. It's... not right.

Hm...

QuoteBut if someone wants to do just that they end up playing the game the wrong way?

Yepp. And no. Of course can everybody play like he wants to, and D&D surely can be fitted to many tastes. But in this era of choice and thousand blooming flowers, it strikes me as an atavism, that has been dealt with time and time again.

Play they might as they see fit.

Complain about D&D for levelling...well that´s disqualifying in any sense.

Quote from: J ArcaneTHe tracking at big-boards still keeps track of posts that have been lost or deleted in their total count.

Well, it tries. Any tool which tells me there are more threads and posts total on RPGnet than the wizards RPG boards during the life of boards is just not something I can take seriously. Something is wrong somewhere.

QuoteIt really doesn't matter though.  I only brought it up because it's just plain patently stupid to act offended just because someone dared to assume a person has heard of the site, and it's not the first time it has happened here, and I'm even seeing the same names doing it.

I really wasn't tying to dispute or support anybody's point here; I just found the data point dubious.

Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeNow this is something I don't get.

The D&D fans claim that D&D encompasses so much more than just killing and looting and levelling, that instead you can play so many different types of campaigns, and that D&D is able to model so many different flavours of the fantasy genre - sometimes with just a little tweaking.
But if someone wants to do just that they end up playing the game the wrong way?

("Badwrongfun", even?)


Hm...

Yeah...Sett sure seems to be channelling Ron Edwards in this thread, doesn't he?  Although I suppose he really needs to introduce more obfuscatory jargon if he wants to take his game to the level of the master.  

I'm thinking E8 is about right for me, as a player.  Frankly, I'd rather have some other way of controlling the exponential power explosion -- and I think that that's not really all that hard to do either.  But the rules lack the baldfaced simplicity of E6.

Quote from: Dirk RemmeckeNow this is something I don't get.

The D&D fans claim that D&D encompasses so much more than just killing and looting and levelling, that instead you can play so many different types of campaigns, and that D&D is able to model so many different flavours of the fantasy genre - sometimes with just a little tweaking.
But if someone wants to do just that they end up playing the game the wrong way?

("Badwrongfun", even?)


Hm...

Naah, people can play however they want and even have a good time with it.  I'm personally acknowledging that D&D does, actually, lend itself well to certain playstyles.  I think this is trying to do stuff with D&D that D&D's not well-equipped to handle without sufficient modification.

You can do low-power fantasy with D&D, to an extent, but it takes more work than simply capping the levels at 6 and progressively awarding feats.  It's just a poor rules implementation.  By capping levels at 6, you break a lot of stuff in the basic system.  This isn't bad in and of itself - but you also need to work to get the broken stuff put back together.

Levels are extremely granular.  In this case, a character has a period of very rapid advancement followed by almost no advancement at all.  I'd suggest either slowing the advancement, or giving more feat options to allow people to get better at things they're already good at.  Alternately, just end the campaign at level 6 if that's your sweet spot - retire those characters and roll up new ones.

I, personally, would go to a system like WFRP2e for low-power and/or gritty fantasy.  It's less work to get WFRP to do what E6 is trying to do.

-O

Quote from: obrynI, personally, would go to a system like WFRP2e for low-power and/or gritty fantasy.  It's less work to get WFRP to do what E6 is trying to do.

Well, even D&D characters at level six would be able to whoop more ass than any WFRP character has the right to do. Fighters get second attacks, mages get fireballs. If the enemy is mostly non-classed humanoids, you're pretty powerful. I don't think mere grittyness is the intended goal. I wouldn't even go as far as to consider "E6" a system. It's a campaign choice. We won't go further than level six, period. The feats you get afterwards really don't cut it, those are just occupational therapy for the players...
Back in the days, it would've been "we stop at name level"...

Quote from: obrynLevels are extremely granular.  In this case, a character has a period of very rapid advancement followed by almost no advancement at all.  I'd suggest either slowing the advancement, or giving more feat options to allow people to get better at things they're already good at.

Think of the semi-capping as a simplification of real world logarithmic slowing of skill learning.  People really do slow down a great deal.  With only 6 levels, I'd also slow down advancement though.

Quote from: obrynAlternately, just end the campaign at level 6 if that's your sweet spot - retire those characters and roll up new ones.

That's the exact opposite of what you'd wanna if level 6 is your sweet spot.  You'd want to play at level 6 forever.  E6 does that but throws the characters a few bones so they're not totally static.

Everyone suggesting other games are kind of missing the point.  What if you really like D&D but don't want the mess and tedium of higher levels?  It's like someone says "I like coffee but only drink Kona because I don't want too much bitterness."  and you respond "if you don't like bitterness switch to tea."  Because tea isn't coffee and WFRP isn't D&D.

I think I might cap at level 8 to allow more multi-classing.  At 6, a fighter never gets a 2nd attack if they take a level of a non-warrior class.

Quote from: NicephorusEveryone suggesting other games are kind of missing the point.  What if you really like D&D but don't want the mess and tedium of higher levels?  It's like someone says "I like coffee but only drink Kona because I don't want too much bitterness."  and you respond "if you don't like bitterness switch to tea."  Because tea isn't coffee and WFRP isn't D&D.

I said this before on the thread: There is no mess and tedium at higher levels unless you are a careless person or intentionally bootstrapping yourself. The idea that things turn into some terrible, uncontrollable mass of numbers that kills your fun at levels 8-12 is a popular myth with no basis, like Santa Claus or the divinity of Jesus Christ. I have played high level games, and they are as smooth as any low-level game is.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThere is no mess and tedium at higher levels unless you are a careless person or intentionally bootstrapping yourself.

The total amount of stuff to track increases quite a bit.  In addition better magic items, players have many more of them.  At any given time, there are more spells to track the effects of and when they end.  Character classes have more special abilities that come up only at certain times so both players and DM have to remember to apply them.  Plus there is more die rolling, much of which is nearly useless, due to iterative attacks.

As I said above, nearly all of this goes away with careful record-keeping. Saying  "We cast the following buffs on everyone" and handing the DM a prepared list resolves it in two seconds. At high levels, Buffs last for multiple encounters, which means you do this once or twice a session.

As well, doing things like buffing, selecting the right combination of gear etc. are often fun for the players, however much the DM might want them to just charge in and get down to it.

Multiple die rolls can be resolved by rolling the first attack by itself, then, once iterative attacks are decided upon, taking a number of differently coloured dice, telling the other players which ones are which, and then rolling them all at once.

Almost every problem one encounters in high level play is that someone has failed to draw up a list beforehand, to carefully note some relevant bonus or penalty or its type, or to remember clearly the effect of some piece of magic. By drawing up lists, by careful record-keeping, and by either bookmarking or making a short annotated entry, almost every problem goes away. It really is that simple. I can get through a 20th level mystic theurge's turn (with divine metamagic, rods of quickening, etc.) in under a minute.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineAlmost every problem one encounters in high level play is that someone has failed to draw up a list beforehand, to carefully note some relevant bonus or penalty or its type, or to remember clearly the effect of some piece of magic. By drawing up lists, by careful record-keeping, and by either bookmarking or making a short annotated entry, almost every problem goes away

This is mostly just pushing the problem back in time.  Instead of having slower game time, you have more prep time.  It's still the case that higher levels are more work and have more things to remember.  High level chargen also takes longer which puts more burden on DMs creating NPCs.  

Some people just wanna play without spending much time between sessions doing fiddly stuff and without doing much record keeping.

Don't forget there're listings for all PC classes upto 20th level in the DMG. Just take one from there, change feats to suit, a tiny bit of fiddling with items, five minutes to adjust and you're done. No need to build from the ground up.

Quote from: NicephorusThis is mostly just pushing the problem back in time.  Instead of having slower game time, you have more prep time.  It's still the case that higher levels are more work and have more things to remember.  High level chargen also takes longer which puts more burden on DMs creating NPCs.  

Some people just wanna play without spending much time between sessions doing fiddly stuff and without doing much record keeping.

Then they should not be playing D&D. The strategies that speed up higher-level play are the same strategies that speed up lower level play. If you don't like having to do that, go try a game that doesn't bog down when you don't do those things. There are plenty of much faster, perfectly good fantasy games out there. If time is that important, then play a game that doesn't require as much time setting it up.

so you're saying that if someone likes D&D but doesn't like to play it the way you do, then they should play something else?  

Low to mid-level D&D is an ideal fit for many people.

Quote from: Nicephorusso you're saying that if someone likes D&D but doesn't like to play it the way you do, then they should play something else?  

Low to mid-level D&D is an ideal fit for many people.

I'm saying that low-to-mid-level D&D has the same things you think of as "problems" as high-level D&D. If that's the case, then low-level D&D is no real solution at all to those problems. And if that's the case, and you find those problems intolerable, it's best to look for other games.