I've had an itch, lately, to start a new BECMI campaign with my gaming group. I want to run an original campaign, but drop in some old modules I haven't played since I was a kid. Then I read about 0 level funnels and thought to myself, "Self? That sounds interesting and fun and something I haven't tried before."
The thing is, I don't own DCC. I've heard about it for a while. I've read their schtick about it being like 1974 and appendix N. I've also seen that they have published more modules than did TSR in their heyday. So, translate Appendix N in 1974 for me. I know that was the inspirational reading section of the DMG. And I suppose it's a blend of white box and Elric, Conan, Fafhrd and Grey Mouser, et al? How does that boil down for characters? Mostly humans with demi-humans as class? What are the high points of DCC and how would you compare it to BECMI?
Is it possible to buy a 0-level funnel module and adapt that to BECMI or BFRPG if that was a better choice? Just curious about the opinions of those familiar with DCC and particularly DCC as well as BECMI or B/X, BFRPG, Rules Cyclopedia, etc.
Thanks in advance for all comments, tyrades, name-calling, internet bravado, and well constructed responses. ;)
DCC is a really fun game made with a lot of love, and it has some rules-y elements that work well with the OSR vibe. That said, it can slow to a crawl when you get caught up in using all those fun sub-systems, especially when spell casting comes up. I'd only go this direction if you think your group would enjoy working through a half dozen new bodies of rules. If you just want to play D&D, then go with your BCEMI idea.
p.s. edit: you can perfectly well reproduce the 'funnel' experience with BCEMI: just have each player roll up 3 characters, present them with some significant challenges, and play the RAW. Half of them will die and the survivors will feel like heroes, and that's the whole idea behind the funnel.
Quote from: Larsdangly;974426DCC is a really fun game made with a lot of love, and it has some rules-y elements that work well with the OSR vibe. That said, it can slow to a crawl when you get caught up in using all those fun sub-systems, especially when spell casting comes up. I'd only go this direction if you think your group would enjoy working through a half dozen new bodies of rules. If you just want to play D&D, then go with your BCEMI idea.
p.s. edit: you can perfectly well reproduce the 'funnel' experience with BCEMI: just have each player roll up 3 characters, present them with some significant challenges, and play the RAW. Half of them will die and the survivors will feel like heroes, and that's the whole idea behind the funnel.
I agree the most important part of the funnel is the attitude going into it: you take 3-5 PCs, but only a few will survive. Then as GM ensure there are enough extra monsters, traps and other unfortunate events to make that happen. As long as everyone is on board with the premise, it'll be a blast.
Part of the fun of the funnel is the way the 0-level characters professions give them some kind of identity. If you are using BECMI, have them make a character with d4 HP, and then assign them a random profession that comes with a single skill (RC, p. 82). Make your own table and feel free to lean heavily on variants of Craft, Art and Knowledge for a lot of the professions. It's okay to have some combat skills in their, but try and make them the minority of table results. Each profession should come with an item or two to be their starting equipment. You'll also need to make some of the results demi-human professions as well.
If they survive the funnel, they get to move up to a real class and add all the benefits. Sure, that means they have D4 HP on top of the usual starting HP, but they survived the funnel. They deserve it.
Converting between DCC and BECMI is easy. Just us the standard subtraction trick for converting AC from ascending to descending.When I ran DCC and used B/X materials, I just converted on the fly without issue. You should have no problem using an off-the-rack funnel. If there is some element of translation that trips you up, I am sure we can walk you through it.
So DCC does use ascending AC? If so, no conversion necessary if I decide to roll with BFRPG.
Quote from: Harlock;974443So DCC does use ascending AC? If so, no conversion necessary if I decide to roll with BFRPG.
Sure. That would ease things.
If you see it at your FLGS, I recommend picking it up. I haven't played it yet but when I saw it, the price was low enough that there was no way I was walking out of Sentry Box without it.
I think you are on the right track. I use DCC, BFRPG, and BECMI all in the same campaign world. I will freely switch between rule sets based on the players available.
I will say that DCC is a lot more than the funnel which seems to get much of the attention.
Alignment plays a much bigger role. Magic can be much richer but some of that can be dialed back (mercurial magic, spell duals can be ditched). Mighty deeds. Etc.
Finally there is a ton of fan support for DCC. "Crawler's Companion" is an app that pretty much has all the rules, dice roller in one. I can run the game without the core book with that one app.
Quote from: Larsdangly;974426DCC is a really fun game made with a lot of love, and it has some rules-y elements that work well with the OSR vibe. That said, it can slow to a crawl when you get caught up in using all those fun sub-systems, especially when spell casting comes up. I'd only go this direction if you think your group would enjoy working through a half dozen new bodies of rules.
Most of those 'fun subsystems' won't come up in a funnel though. In DCC no lvl zeros will be casting spells or getting into spell duels, no warriors will be performing Mighty Deeds.
Those ARE some of the high points for me about DCC but I agree that the funnels ought to work fine with some flavor of basic D&D.
Ignore all the appendix N talk and supposed influences. The biggest influence on DCC are classic AD&D modules played with B/X with some gonzo magic and combat strapped onto it. If you like the simplicity of B/X and BECMI the table-madness of DCC may not work for you.
Quote from: Krimson;974446If you see it at your FLGS, I recommend picking it up. I haven't played it yet but when I saw it, the price was low enough that there was no way I was walking out of Sentry Box without it.
Paperback editions of DCC are a great value. I got mine for $20. Just the art alone was worth that to me, let alone the actual game.
Quote from: MonsterSlayer;974449I will say that DCC is a lot more than the funnel which seems to get much of the attention.
Alignment plays a much bigger role. Magic can be much richer but some of that can be dialed back (mercurial magic, spell duals can be ditched). Mighty deeds. Etc.
And alternatively, you can strip out individual part of DCC to use in BECMI. For example, mercurial magic can be a fun addition to any D&D game.
QuoteFinally there is a ton of fan support for DCC. "Crawler's Companion" is an app that pretty much has all the rules, dice roller in one. I can run the game without the core book with that one app.
That app is fantastic. I don't generally lean on electronic aids when I run a game, but I love that one.
Quote from: Voros;974451If you like the simplicity of B/X and BECMI the table-madness of DCC may not work for you.
That is entirely possible. On the other hand, B/X and DCC are my two favorite versions of D&D so it is possible to love both.
The app does sound awesome as it would eliminate the need to reference the tables in the books.
Quote from: Voros;974451Ignore all the appendix N talk and supposed influences. The biggest influence on DCC are classic AD&D modules played with B/X with some gonzo magic and combat strapped onto it. If you like the simplicity of B/X and BECMI the table-madness of DCC may not work for you.
I kind of like the Appendix N talk. I think that the artwork and general rules are crafted in a very "early pulp swords and sorcery" vibe. Familiarity with Conan, Fafhrd and Mouser, and other early literature isn't mandatory, but it does help establish the feel that DCC is trying to create. The DCC modules are, I think, some of the best I've seen for any game system. They don't focus on standard orcs or that kind of monster but instead typically have some weird creepies, they tend to have puzzles and plot, and they continue that awesome artwork.
DISCLAIMER: To be truthful, I've playtested quite a few modules for Goodman Games so I have a bit of a bias towards them.
Quote from: finarvyn;974540I kind of like the Appendix N talk.
I think Voros is suggesting that Appendix N-ded-ness is not the primary "thing" about DCC. Personally I think it depends on what you take away from the system. I certainly would agree that the 'big take-away' of DCC is to get back to the nineteen seventy four through nineteen eighty-something dungeon modules with expendable early characters. That's thing #1. However, pretty close behind is things #2-200 which are the subsystems and the DCC magic system and the modules themselves, which are pretty good at the pulp-over-Tolkein model.
TL/DR: DCC is an OSR D&D game first and Appendix N game second, but it certainly is one.
Quote from: Harlock;974424Is it possible to buy a 0-level funnel module and adapt that to BECMI or BFRPG if that was a better choice? Just curious about the opinions of those familiar with DCC and particularly DCC as well as BECMI or B/X, BFRPG, Rules Cyclopedia, etc.
Answer: unreservedly yes. Generating zero-level BECMI PCs should be extremely straight-forward. If I did this, I'd probably lean on the DCC tables for former occupations and their starting gear (it's fun to have a peasant who starts the game with a side of beef). But otherwise, BECMI rules should be entirely sufficient.
As for the adventure itself, converting between OD&D and DCC is pretty easy. This is especially true for a funnel, because everything is at about the same scale. In general, individual experience levels in DCC are a bigger deal than their corresponding D&D levels, but at level 0, that's not an issue. The stats should just carry over (HD, AC, attacks, etc.).
Like many others here, I will urge you to give DCC a try. The first time I read it, I bounced off the spell tables like a superball. "What is this nonsense?" I thought, putting it down for a few months. Then, I I read some high praise for DCC somewhere, gave it a closer reading, and after recovering from a brutal facepalm, I realized that it was the best FRPG system of all time.
Of course, if you are looking to scratch that BECMI itch with gossamer-light rules, DCC isn't going to cut it. I may be a giant Goodman Games fanboy, but I recognize that it can't be all things to all people. DCC loves its many tables and odd dice, so you have to get used to that if it's not your style. As others have said, the funnel may be great, but the best features of the system come after that. Without question, it has the best interpretation of the fighter class that I've ever seen, and thieves also have some really clever mechanics. I would call it medium crunchy.
But the funnel concept is probably the easiest part to rip off for D&D. You can even take a first-level D&D adventure and run it as a funnel without much problem; don't forget that each players gets around four toothless peasants to control, so funnels and first level adventures are largely interchangeable. So you don't have to stick with a funnel written for DCC to run a funnel.
DCC is worth having a copy for the art and giving it a go. The support is fantastic and the game has some superb ideas. I'm just personally not a fan of most of their modules or gimmicky items (all of which are of course incidental and not necessary). There is currently a kickstarter project for scratch off zero level character sheets. A dollar or two on index cards at a dollar store and a half hour or less and a Judge can have funnel characters made that are sufficient and can be tailored by the Judge for their own game.
Some guy wrote up rules for 0-level character funnels for Basic Fantasy here:
http://www.infinitedragons.com/character-funnel/
Quote from: quozl;974668Some guy wrote up rules for 0-level character funnels for Basic Fantasy here:
http://www.infinitedragons.com/character-funnel/
Ha. Very cool. Thanks!
One point to mention I suppose is that a 1st level DCC character doesn't equal a 1st level BECMI character. DCC characters are larger than life and capable of more without being as powerful as 3e+ characters. It feels old school but the characters are not as fragile and can do more.
Quote from: bat;974745One point to mention I suppose is that a 1st level DCC character doesn't equal a 1st level BECMI character. DCC characters are larger than life and capable of more without being as powerful as 3e+ characters. It feels old school but the characters are not as fragile and can do more.
I mentioned that, but like I said, this doesn't come into play in a funnel since the PCs are all level 0.
Quote from: Edgewise;974901I mentioned that, but like I said, this doesn't come into play in a funnel since the PCs are all level 0.
I don't mind players starting with 1d4 more HP at level one after going through a funnel. Survivability at level 1 will still be a crap shoot.
Quote from: Harlock;974904I don't mind players starting with 1d4 more HP at level one after going through a funnel. Survivability at level 1 will still be a crap shoot.
I feel the same way. But if you want to be more of a BECMI purist, when PCs graduate from the funnel, you can let them merely reroll their HP, keeping the higher total. This gives a
slight advantage over vanilla D&D characters (mostly for magic-users with their d4 hit die), but not enough to have any significant effect on play.
Quote from: Edgewise;974901I mentioned that, but like I said, this doesn't come into play in a funnel since the PCs are all level 0.
Yes, sorry. I had read that. My fault for bouncing between conversations in different places. I know the funnel had come up, I was musing in a couple of places about how customizable DCC is. The patron and magic system truly make each game unique.
Quote from: Edgewise;974921I feel the same way. But if you want to be more of a BECMI purist, when PCs graduate from the funnel, you can let them merely reroll their HP, keeping the higher total. This gives a slight advantage over vanilla D&D characters (mostly for magic-users with their d4 hit die), but not enough to have any significant effect on play.
I'd probably let them keep the 1d4 bonus in HP, but that is an elegant solution for a GM who is concerned with having characters remain firmly within official level limits.
Quote from: Baulderstone;975040I'd probably let them keep the 1d4 bonus in HP, but that is an elegant solution for a GM who is concerned with having characters remain firmly within official level limits.
Not too much to worry about, really. In 3-4 levels and a couple of lucky or unlucky rolls it would be a wash. A high CON score could do more over the 14 levels of B/X than that initial 1d4.
Quote from: Edgewise;974589But the funnel concept is probably the easiest part to rip off for D&D. You can even take a first-level D&D adventure and run it as a funnel without much problem; don't forget that each players gets around four toothless peasants to control, so funnels and first level adventures are largely interchangeable. So you don't have to stick with a funnel written for DCC to run a funnel.
Isn't the funnel concept borrowed wholesale from Allston's classic Treasure Hunt adventure?
Quote from: Voros;975049Isn't the funnel concept borrowed wholesale from Allston's classic Treasure Hunt adventure?
I had to go look that up; it definitely appears to be an inspiration.
IMO, DCC is both inspired and inspirational. If you don't own it, or haven't played it, and you like D&D, you owe it to yourself to seek it out. That said, I don't think it's a better game than the original. Its similar enough to feel familiar, and different enough to feel fresh. Its the only modern product that I have found that really brought that same sense of wonder that the original game had inspired decades ago... but it's not really a better game. Now that I've played it quite a bit, I prefer the original. It's still a seminal work in the D&D library.
Quote from: Madprofessor;975288IMO, DCC is both inspired and inspirational. If you don't own it, or haven't played it, and you like D&D, you owe it to yourself to seek it out. That said, I don't think it's a better game than the original. Its similar enough to feel familiar, and different enough to feel fresh. Its the only modern product that I have found that really brought that same sense of wonder that the original game had inspired decades ago... but it's not really a better game. Now that I've played it quite a bit, I prefer the original. It's still a seminal work in the D&D library.
It's less flexible than standard D&D. All the mechanical bits in DCC are great, but they make it hard to homebrew. Making a new spell for D&D is easy. The hardest part is deciding what level to make it. Making a new spell for DCC is a project.
I don't really see it as one being better. DCC is just a focused version of D&D. When I want the kind of play it provides, it is the one to reach for. If I want more flexibility, I will start with D&D.
Quote from: Baulderstone;975299It's less flexible than standard D&D. All the mechanical bits in DCC are great, but they make it hard to homebrew. Making a new spell for D&D is easy. The hardest part is deciding what level to make it. Making a new spell for DCC is a project.
I don't really see it as one being better. DCC is just a focused version of D&D. When I want the kind of play it provides, it is the one to reach for. If I want more flexibility, I will start with D&D.
I believe this is a great point. DCC is very thematic [or can be] and takes more work for the Judge. Thankfully [and much to my amazement ] there are people out there churning out good quality third party support. The guy that cranked out that pdf of spells almost half as thick as the core book is a machine.
Quote from: bat;975318The guy that cranked out that pdf of spells almost half as thick as the core book is a machine.
Which PDF is that?
One of the issues of the Crawl fanzine (I think that's where it was) had a simple formula for creating/converting spells for DCC... the results might be less elaborate than some of the core spells but it seemed to work for a quick result that could be tweaked later as inspiration struck.
Quote from: Simlasa;975390Which PDF is that?
One of the issues of the Crawl fanzine (I think that's where it was) had a simple formula for creating/converting spells for DCC... the results might be less elaborate than some of the core spells but it seemed to work for a quick result that could be tweaked later as inspiration struck.
The Liber Arcanum by Cognition Press who also did Critters, Creatures & Denizens. That is a lot of work to snap out in no time.
DCC is well-worth picking up, but frankly I think you'd have no trouble running a funnel in other OSR products either with 0-level characters or just using 1st level character, who in BECMI are pretty low-powered anyways.
True. To me DCC shines not at the funnel but in being able to make a themed game easily by converting a few spells and maybe a patron or three. You can do this with most any game, but with the Spell system DCC almost begs to have weird and twisted patrons tainting the land.
The magic system is the most distinctive element in DCC to me.
It's been awhile since I read it, but as well as all the good stuff people have mentioned about the magic, I think the DCC Cleric is one of the more interesting versions of the class. Never been a fan of the Cleric class, but the DCC version looks fun and interesting to play, or GM.
Quote from: Weru;976364It's been awhile since I read it, but as well as all the good stuff people have mentioned about the magic, I think the DCC Cleric is one of the more interesting versions of the class. Never been a fan of the Cleric class, but the DCC version looks fun and interesting to play, or GM.
Agreed. I used to avoid playing Clerics but then had some good experiences when I got talked into playing one in Pathfinder because... "We need a healer!"
I made a point of playing it as a zealot devoted to a cause... that healing didn't come without strings attached.
Later, when I started playing DCC, I was pleased to see it had more mechanical backup for making the Cleric's relationship with their deity a more active presence in-game and I've been having a great time playing one.
There are DCC fans who feel the Cleric didn't get enough love from the designers though... their gods and spells don't get the same level of presentation and flavour as the Wizards and their Patrons and spells... and people often mention that they'd like to see thematic spell lists tied to specific deities/cults.
Quote from: Voros;976349The magic system is the most distinctive element in DCC to me.
The magic system is very distinctive, no doubt.
I'd say equally distinctive is what it lets you do with warriors, though.
Quote from: RPGPundit;977051I'd say equally distinctive is what it lets you do with warriors, though.
I very much agree with this, and I think the thief mechanics are almost as compelling. The way they use Luck allows even 1st level thieves to pull a James Bond once a session.
And while clerics aren't as exciting as wizards, the whole disapproval mechanic tends to snowball nicely. It makes the cleric player groan and the other players laugh, all while supplying the Judge with a bottomless supply of plot hooks.
Clerics can be pretty awesome at higher levels.
Also, if your Cleric is an asshole, Sanctuary helps make him one of the most survivable characters.