The reason Exalted seems to work is that it has the reverse of the chronology that Pundit actually proposed. If our Earth lies in the future, then obviously nobody in Creation can find out about it...

...except with some way to see the future, which is pretty far out. I guess Pundit has ascertained that Exalted prohibits anything so far out.

It's not quite so far out to collect information about the past. In a fantasy/sci-fi milieu, in which extraordinary things by the measure of our world are already the new normal, it is likely to be only the more difficult to make it impossible to discover something.

If the something actually has produced no evident effects, then one wonders how many sentences about it our hypothetical game designer writes. If it really has no bearing on the present, then to what lengths will the designer go to rig the physics and metaphysics of the universe to prevent discovery?

Has the game designer in fact expressed the assumption that no character shall learn the secret, or is that really just an expression of someone's lack of imagination?

It would be nice if we had an actual example to talk about!

Quote from: Simlasa;462740The enjoyment, for me, with such settings is that I like there to be some sort of rational coherence to the setting... a logic behind it.

I suspect many of the paperbacks from the seventies with such premises, such as Witch World and Darkover sprang directly from the Campbellian science fiction authors trying to respond to the sudden surge in the popularity of fantasy.  It resulted in their tryining to construct something they could live with within the constraints of the literary ethic they subscribed to.

In a sense it created a new sub-genre of rigorous science fantasy.  Anyone can give a barbarian princess a Buck Rogers surplus ray gun but building a coherent primitive world with humans on it who came from earth raised it to the standard they were trying to meet.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;462929I'm still not clear on what actual settings you mean. I can't speak to Jorune, but as has already been stated, it isn't true for Tekumel.

(Not trying to be snarky, here -- I honestly can't think of a setting like the one you're describing.)

Several of these have been named: Tekumel, which a lot of people seem to think this thread is a veiled-attack on is in fact not one of these settings per se; it very much DOES have high-tech remnants.  Though in fact, from what I've seen of a lot of how people run Tekumel (basically as weird-culture-porn), they don't bother to use them; but that's not the setting's fault.

Jorune is one I was thinking of, yes, and Synnabar, and a few other lesser fantasy worlds out there, and (as I already mentioned) exalted has a turned-on-its-head variation of this.  It was, like I said, a common convention of cheap sci-fantasy books in the late 70s/early 80s.

RPGPundit

Why Jorune? It has high-tech weapons and armor PCs can get their hands on so the scifi elements seem to be out in the open and in use... if not particularly common. The magic system isn't all that farther out than the PSI stuff in Traveller.
Is it that huge of a secret that Durlig, Crugar, Woffen, etc. are the results of tampering by the original settlers?
Maybe I need to go read Jorune again but I always took it as Planetary Romance/Scifi... similar to Tekumel and Barsoom. Maybe the average Joe doesn't know the whole history but it certainly seemed like it was discoverable and useful once learned.

Quote from: RPGPundit;462951Several of these have been named: Tekumel, which a lot of people seem to think this thread is a veiled-attack on is in fact not one of these settings per se; it very much DOES have high-tech remnants.  Though in fact, from what I've seen of a lot of how people run Tekumel (basically as weird-culture-porn), they don't bother to use them; but that's not the setting's fault.

Jorune is one I was thinking of, yes, and Synnabar, and a few other lesser fantasy worlds out there, and (as I already mentioned) exalted has a turned-on-its-head variation of this.  It was, like I said, a common convention of cheap sci-fantasy books in the late 70s/early 80s.

RPGPundit

Well, Synnibarr has high tech out the wazoo, and it's entirely possible for the PCs to find out the truth about the setting. Sounds like Jorune has plenty of high-tech goodies, too.

But! If these games are run as you describe, or if there are other games with the setting premise you describe, then I agree that the background becomes pointless. Fair enough?

Quote from: Simlasa;462960Why Jorune? It has high-tech weapons and armor PCs can get their hands on so the scifi elements seem to be out in the open and in use... if not particularly common. The magic system isn't all that farther out than the PSI stuff in Traveller.
Is it that huge of a secret that Durlig, Crugar, Woffen, etc. are the results of tampering by the original settlers?
Maybe I need to go read Jorune again but I always took it as Planetary Romance/Scifi... similar to Tekumel and Barsoom. Maybe the average Joe doesn't know the whole history but it certainly seemed like it was discoverable and useful once learned.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;462965Well, Synnibarr has high tech out the wazoo, and it's entirely possible for the PCs to find out the truth about the setting. Sounds like Jorune has plenty of high-tech goodies, too.

The antiquity of Jorune is not that mysterious. Characters in the default "questing for citizenship" scenario are likely to understand that they aren't proper natives.  There are particulars of the history that are better known by some than others, but then there are the Thriddle, who are the archivists and scholars of the setting.  They've got a good handle on the past, and they've also got some technological research happening.

Some of the species, like the uplifted furries, are characterized by their ignorance of their own origins, but more than anything else, Earth and ancient history doesn't matter to Jorunis because it's gone.  A degree in ancient history and summers spent attempting to dig up the wreck of another old starship isn't going to make the Durlig grow.

The Jorune setting has a theme of renaissance.

Synnibarr is ridiculous.  It has a few pages at the front blathering about how time traveling vampires tried to implode the sun two million years ago, or some such, but what do you expect?  It includes details that would be impossible to recover, too, but with the rest of the book being as silly as it is, why not?

Well, ok, maybe I am talking out of my ass here... I bet there is an RPG setting somewhere that does this but I cannot bring it to mind, then.  

However, the same fundamental issue that my OP is just one manifestation of still stands: there are settings that often provide information that has ZERO viable relevance to the game-in-play (witness the exalted example or SLA's big secret, etc), and in my opinion they often do this because they're writing for the "reader", rather than the "gamer".

RPGPundit

First, I'm gonna smite you all with my Midnight Sunstone Bazooka...


I would mention that The Truth, for SLA Industries, was meant for, and available to those who were Writing for the game line, though the exact particulars I never discovered... like if anyone ever got hold of it that way... I just recall that being proffered as the Method to discover the Truth (sign an NDA, have a project you are writing... that sort of thing).

Since it was, in fact, being kept out of the players (and GM's!) hands, I'm not sure it really matters as this thread describes. Its there for the writers of the game explicitly.

I, for one, am cool with that.

A lot of writers make up shit for their settings that isn't meant for public consumption. Look at the piles of shit based on notes published for both Middle Earth and Dune alike, after the author was dead. Most of it is pretty stupid when presented, but having that background, no matter how dumb, informs the main text, enriches it.

Thats my theory. I'd stick to it come hell or high water, but seeing as you all have been mightily smited by said Midnight Sunstone Bazooka, I'm guessin' it'll be awfully quiet around here for a while....

Quote from: Spike;463183First, I'm gonna smite you all with my Midnight Sunstone Bazooka...


I would mention that The Truth, for SLA Industries, was meant for, and available to those who were Writing for the game line, though the exact particulars I never discovered... like if anyone ever got hold of it that way... I just recall that being proffered as the Method to discover the Truth (sign an NDA, have a project you are writing... that sort of thing).

Since it was, in fact, being kept out of the players (and GM's!) hands, I'm not sure it really matters as this thread describes. Its there for the writers of the game explicitly.

I, for one, am cool with that.

A lot of writers make up shit for their settings that isn't meant for public consumption. Look at the piles of shit based on notes published for both Middle Earth and Dune alike, after the author was dead. Most of it is pretty stupid when presented, but having that background, no matter how dumb, informs the main text, enriches it.

Thats my theory. I'd stick to it come hell or high water, but seeing as you all have been mightily smited by said Midnight Sunstone Bazooka, I'm guessin' it'll be awfully quiet around here for a while....

Well, here's the thing: if it doesn't affect the setting, there's no reason for the information to exist.

And having read the Truth of SLA: Yeah, it pretty much matters, explaining as it does everything from why a given prolific species exists to the very nature of reality itself.

Relevant to the ongoing discussion here:
http://www.infinityplus.co.uk/nonfiction/fearoffiction.htm.

I'd have to say I favor Transgressive SF over Campbellian SF, for the simple reason it opens up entirely new possibilities, however that is often inconceivable unless the storyline and plot is well integrated into the game.

Traveller, for example, is Campbellian, Trans-Human Space, Transgressive.

It's just easy to Jump the Shark when playing in a Transgressive SF game, by that I mean, some folks will have difficulty in making the connections between disparate technologies. This makes the Far Future Alien Worlds a much more difficult sell for an average group of RPG players.

So FFAW appeals to a niche, a much smaller subset of all SF RPG players.

Quote from: Dan Davenport;463265Well, here's the thing: if it doesn't affect the setting, there's no reason for the information to exist.

And having read the Truth of SLA: Yeah, it pretty much matters, explaining as it does everything from why a given prolific species exists to the very nature of reality itself.

Damnit, this damn Midnight Sunstone Bazooka must be broke... DAMN YOU RAVEN S. MCKRAKEN!!!!


Now, where was I?

Oh, yeah: The Truth.

See, I was a fan of SLA Industries for something very close to 15 years before I ever learned 'The Truth'.  Not knowing 'The Truth' had absolutely no impact on my enjoyment, even though I KNEW that 'The Truth' was out there.

Reading 'The Truth' actually divided my SLA-Fandom into two seperate camps in my own head... the old skool version I'd loved for years where we have no idea what is going on in all those weird intro fictions, and it doesn't matter, and a seperate game entirely where I do know it, and it becomes this entirely new thing where seeking out and using 'the Truth' actually matters.  Both have quiet a lot of potential, to me, thus the revelation (or lack) of The Truth doesn't really matter from my ability to enjoy the game.

Contrast this with the Dune Prequels (which I mentioned not entirely tangentally...). I enjoy me the hell out of some Dune. However, its isn't just the hackery that is Kevin J. Anderson that makes me dislike intensely the Dune Prequels (which I hate having read them...), particularly teh Butlerian Jihad arc. I appreciate the richness and depth they gave the setting of Dune, can even see how they did that, but reading about it was profoundly disappointing... mostly because it was incredibly stupid...  Its a bit like seeing a sausage get made really.


I use this sort of thing in my own setting (detailed in stupid length, and in nearly obsessive detail on this very forum... pimp, pimp!). The PC's, and even the players seriously have no reason to know that their 'world' is nothing more than a refuge from the impermanence of chaos, that all mortal life is meant merely to reinforce 'reality', or really any of it.  

Its there if I want it, and it really does improve the depth of the mythology, but in several years and three campaigns in that setting I've never really made the very nature of reality a part of the game itself.

How is that fundamentally different from a secret future history?