I have been considering what system to use for my next campaign and 5th edition Hackmaster keeps coming up. My question is for those that have actually played the game.

Is the count up system worth the trouble? It seems like it would be a real pain to keep track of, especially with big groups. I have seen several methods for doing so and all look clunky and cumbersome. This, combined with what looks like lots of little fiddly modifiers and rules, makes the system look like it might be a pain to run.

If I don't go with Hackmaster, I may lean toward one of the new shiny toys like ACKS or the DCC rpg.

The combat system is precisely why Hackmaster isn't my game of choice.

I tried it out and the count up system is at odds with the "real time not abstraction" jargon of the rules.

I'm fine with real time combat tracking.

I'm fine with the abstraction of a combat round.


Hackmaster isn't for me because it tries to be both. Combat is supposedly measured in "real time" as the rulebook will tell you that superior games should be. OK fair enough.

Then I look at the delays and see that it takes 13 seconds to ready an axe. :eek:

So what do I do in the meantime? check my grocery list? play sudoku?

Oh well you see, all kinds of things are happening, that just represents how often you can get in a good swing.

You mean like in an abstracted combat round? :banghead:

Well... it's a BIG axe.  Like, really heavy.

JG

I'd love to give this game a try, but it's got an uncanny valley thing going on with actual D&D. At times, anyway.

And its widest disparities are just not all that interesting. I like the opposed rolls, but this is the game that probably could have used some of DCC's funky dice, namely the d16 in place of d20-4. Bleah.

I play in a Hackmaster game regularly.

The count up is an incredibly smooth mechanic.  The GM keeps the running tally of the current count... 17...18...19...20...21... and players track when their next action will occur (I attack on 21!).  It balances fast actions (drop something) vs. slow actions (swing an enormous sword).

So the GM tracks the count itself and when NPCs/monsters/events will happen.  Players track their characters' actions and effects (ex: take additional fire damage every 10 seconds).  If it's split up like that, tracking is easy.


Real time vs. abstraction - yeah, that's sort of weak.  Take it as, "we use words that already mean something having to do with time", and ignore the justification.  Jargon aside, the reasonableness of heavier weapons being slower than lighter, less bulky weapons is pretty good.  While you may not agree with each action's exact time interval, their relation to each other is pretty solid.


Possibly better than the combat round is the opposed roll.  I love this for one reason: no charts.  I don't have to compare a roll to a number buried in a chart or even a target number in general.  We just roll, higher wins.  I roll a 10 and you roll an 8, then I hit.  That's a very simple and clean idea.


Now, there are certainly a lot of bits in the advanced/optional rules that add (too much, IMHO) to those two simple ideas, but that's a different discussion.

If you want second by second combat, GURPS is a much better and simpler way to go.  The count up was always tripping me up.

Aces & Eights doesn't have the same problem as Hackmaster for a couple reasons, first, the Count Up is by tenths of seconds instead of seconds and second, no classes.

The class structure of Hackmaster means one way to differentiate the classes is by Weapon Specialization.  Anyone can spec in a weapon, but fighters can do it for much less.  As a result, there are artificially slow weapons to make up for the fact that a 10th level fighter fully specced can swing that Great Axe like Conan.

However, the really high speed counts of weapons leads to a total disruption of the "time how long it takes, that's how long it takes" aspect of the Count Up system.  Once the fighters get some levels and start reducing their weapon speed, then things start to come back into line.

Quote from: CRKrueger;550727Aces & Eights doesn't have the same problem as Hackmaster for a couple reasons, first, the Count Up is by tenths of seconds instead of seconds and second, no classes.

The class structure of Hackmaster means one way to differentiate the classes is by Weapon Specialization.  Anyone can spec in a weapon, but fighters can do it for much less.  As a result, there are artificially slow weapons to make up for the fact that a 10th level fighter fully specced can swing that Great Axe like Conan.

However, the really high speed counts of weapons leads to a total disruption of the "time how long it takes, that's how long it takes" aspect of the Count Up system.  Once the fighters get some levels and start reducing their weapon speed, then things start to come back into line.

Its funny that levels affect recovery time for heavy weapons but strength doesn't.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;550870Its funny that levels affect recovery time for heavy weapons but strength doesn't.

It's not how heavy your axe is, it's how you swing it.

JG

It worked fine for my group over 3 years of continuous play - if the GM misses a number, by Gawds do you hear about it (in my experience ).

But no, I found it worked really well after a couple of practice combats.  Same as any new game engine.