Quote from: jhkim on July 21, 2023, 02:37:49 PM
In general, it seems for me like a silly thing to get outraged over either way. I don't agree with anyone who was outraged over DCC's previous use of pronouns, and the minor edit seems like virtue signaling, but I also don't agree with people outraged over singular "they".

I find singular "they" is easier to read than AD&D's "he or she", and I didn't find AD&D's pronouns difficult. I agree with Chris24601 that use of "you" is also a good gender neutral pronoun, but any of these can be used with clarity. There will always be a few gaffes in any writing - it's no big deal.

As a little more on singular "they"...

Quote from: Zalman on July 19, 2023, 11:33:29 AM

Quote from: GamerforHire on July 19, 2023, 10:22:55 AM
Many of you, OP included, are over the top. This sort of gender-neutral, third person pronoun usage has become common in publishing and has been for years.

Complete nonsense. What is common is to use a plural pronoun for an indeterminate person, i.e., "if anyone sticks their hand in the fire, they will get burned". Using plural pronouns for specific individuals is entirely different -- complete aberration of English intentionally designed to disrupt, confuse, and control.

Singular they has also been used for a specific person of unknown gender. i.e. "Someone walked out that door five minutes ago." "Did you get a good look at them? Which way did they go?" This isn't just recent usage - it goes back centuries. As an early example:

"Who is in love with her? Who makes you their confidant?" — Jane Austen, in Emma (1815)


The new thing is real-world people identifying as non-binary gender and/or preferring "they" as a pronoun, but I don't think that's what DCC or most other fantasy games are doing.

It's backwards logic to say "If people are going to identify as non-binary, then we have to go back and take singular 'they' out of English even though it has been used for centuries."  If one cares about tradition, then singular they is established usage.

Languages evolve.
Singular "they" was/is used for someone of unknown sex. Because sex = gender, using it to refer to someone who identifies as an imposibility (even by the rules of "gender is a spectrum" how the fuck are you non-binary if there's no binary?) is cowardice and idiocy.

Singular they isn't easier to read (as proven by a text sample upthread, go look it up edited to add the place to look: page 3 answer 32), it's way easier to use the gender neutral he or resort to using you. Of course to use you Goodperson would need to rewrite all of the game to suit the change.

If a wizard wants to blah, blah he must blah blah

Has to become

As a wizard trying to blah blah, YOU must blah blah

But of course that change wouldn't be
a) cheap
and
B) a virtue signal

Now, can you stop virtue signaling and talk like a reasonable adult?

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 21, 2023, 03:10:49 PM
Because sex = gender, using it to refer to someone who identifies as an imposibility (even by the rules of "gender is a spectrum" how the fuck are you non-binary if there's no binary?) is cowardice and idiocy.

Sex isn't gender...that's part of the damn problem.

Sex is a biological categorization.

Gender is a linguistic structure used to insure agreement when declining parts of speech. In gendered Indo-European languages, it tends to be two (male/female) or three (male/female/neuter) fold. In other languages, it is much broader and some languages (including English for the most part) are genderless.  There are other options for two genders such as animate and inanimate, which applies in most Native American languages and possibly to pre-PIE Europe (both Basque and Georgian use it). Czech and Slovak actually split masculine into animate and inanimate.

Gender was imported into common language initially to describe sex roles in culture (which do vary somewhat) and has of late become a way to try to divorce physical sex from biology by pretending they're the same thing.

When it comes to pronouns, they are the vestige of gender in English. Given English has been evolving away from gender you can view gender-neutral pronouns, such as the slow evolution over my lifetime from the non-specified sex version of the singular they to a generic singular they, as the latest step. Or they can be seen as a political or social move by the speaker/writer.

I generally assume the former (I use generic singular they sometimes without thinking about it) unless someone is crowing about how up-to-date culturally they are in using it.

DCC seems mildly in the latter.

rant over.

But, really, if you mean sex, say 'sex' and 99.999% of the time people are using gender for sex.

Wokeness is DYING:

Quote from: PulpHerb on July 21, 2023, 03:23:28 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 21, 2023, 03:10:49 PM
Because sex = gender, using it to refer to someone who identifies as an imposibility (even by the rules of "gender is a spectrum" how the fuck are you non-binary if there's no binary?) is cowardice and idiocy.

Sex isn't gender...that's part of the damn problem.

Sex is a biological categorization.

Gender is a linguistic structure used to insure agreement when declining parts of speech. In gendered Indo-European languages, it tends to be two (male/female) or three (male/female/neuter) fold. In other languages, it is much broader and some languages (including English for the most part) are genderless.  There are other options for two genders such as animate and inanimate, which applies in most Native American languages and possibly to pre-PIE Europe (both Basque and Georgian use it). Czech and Slovak actually split masculine into animate and inanimate.

Gender was imported into common language initially to describe sex roles in culture (which do vary somewhat) and has of late become a way to try to divorce physical sex from biology by pretending they're the same thing.

When it comes to pronouns, they are the vestige of gender in English. Given English has been evolving away from gender you can view gender-neutral pronouns, such as the slow evolution over my lifetime from the non-specified sex version of the singular they to a generic singular they, as the latest step. Or they can be seen as a political or social move by the speaker/writer.

I generally assume the former (I use generic singular they sometimes without thinking about it) unless someone is crowing about how up-to-date culturally they are in using it.

DCC seems mildly in the latter.

rant over.

But, really, if you mean sex, say 'sex' and 99.999% of the time people are using gender for sex.

So you think that gender wasn't used to not say sex because it was dirty?

Gender was and is just a way to say sex without using that specific word, there are only two sexes/genders, English isn't evolving into gender neutral, it's why you have he, she.

Yes, singular they was/is used to talk about a person of unknown sex. Now go read the answer 32 on page 3, then tell me it's clearer than when using he.

Gender is so common to use to not say sex that your demand that people stop using it like that is just as assinine as the wokist demands we use thousands of "pronouns" to refer to the mentally ill/narcisistic when they aren't around.

If you want to write a game book in a gender neutral way use the second person YOU, way easier and clearer to write and to read than the monstrosity of using they, as proven by said comment 32 on page 3.

Or just be a coward and bend the knee to the woke, or maybe you yourself are a wokist?

"So they told they they needed to go buy more ketchup" I rest my case.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 21, 2023, 04:07:53 PM
Yes, singular they was/is used to talk about a person of unknown sex. Now go read the answer 32 on page 3, then tell me it's clearer than when using he.

GeekyBugle, posts per page is a configurable option, so individual posters may see a different number of pages in a thread.

It's better to refer to it as just "Reply #32" exactly as it appears.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on July 21, 2023, 04:07:53 PM
So you think that gender wasn't used to not say sex because it was dirty?

Gender was and is just a way to say sex without using that specific word, there are only two sexes/genders,

So you are saying there are no men or women among Native Americans?  Are you saying they can't discuss sex?

Gender, as a word, was taken from linguistics and used in English to refer to sex mainly for academic purposes which I'm not 100% weren't of hostile intent to begin with.  Once you appropriate a word from a different field to create imprecise language you are set up for imprecision.

You, of all people, if you mean what you say would be demanding English revert to sex for sex instead of buying into imprecise language for "being nice".  If you mean sex, say sex. If you mean cultural roles, use sex roles.

And if you really want non-gender neutral English start declining all your parts of speech (which would be work as you'd have to learn how).

But you just want to bitch to prove you're superior to the other side instead of actually shutting them down by using language according to rules.

Regarding this example:

Quote from: DocJones on July 19, 2023, 03:19:03 PM
We need to gender neutralize this so no one is offended (confusion is but a small price to pay).

"The adventurers have been summoned to a mysterious black tower made of glass. They are
given a simple mission: protect the mage's estate while they are distracted weaving a mighty spell.
Surviving the five days of their spellcasting requires quick wits and sharp blades, for the estate has
mischievous guests and strange visitors. In the end, the mage demands one final task: stand by
their side as they bind a great horror from beyond!"

Pronoun trouble can happen many different ways. In this case, there is ambiguity between a group (plural they) and an individual referred to by singular "they". But there are also cases where singular "they" can reduce ambiguity compared to generic "he" -- such as if there is a male individual and an individual of unknown gender.

"Conan ran panther-like after the strange masked figure, getting closer whichever way they turned in the narrow alleyways. Near the city center, they tripped and sprawled as they crossed the darkened square."

In this case, it is clear that "they" refers to the masked figure, while "he" refers to Conan. If we do a search and replace, though,

"Conan ran panther-like after the strange masked figure, getting closer whichever way he turned in the narrow alleyways. Near the city center, he tripped and sprawled as he crossed the darkened square."

In the latter, the action is less clear.

There's no magic bullet for pronouns. Different languages have different conventions, and within a single language, there can be different styles of use.

So serious question here: has Wokeman Games changed any of this stuff in editions of the games they publish for languages that have definitive masculine/feminine/neuter words like, I dunno, Spanish or French? I don't even know if DCC is in Spanish or not. Just curious.

Quote from: jhkim on July 21, 2023, 04:44:47 PM
Regarding this example:



Pronoun trouble can happen many different ways. In this case, there is ambiguity between a group (plural they) and an individual referred to by singular "they". But there are also cases where singular "they" can reduce ambiguity compared to generic "he" -- such as if there is a male individual and an individual of unknown gender.

"Conan ran panther-like after the strange masked figure, getting closer whichever way they turned in the narrow alleyways. Near the city center, they tripped and sprawled as they crossed the darkened square."

In this case, it is clear that "they" refers to the masked figure, while "he" refers to Conan. If we do a search and replace, though,

"Conan ran panther-like after the strange masked figure, getting closer whichever way he turned in the narrow alleyways. Near the city center, he tripped and sprawled as he crossed the darkened square."

In the latter, the action is less clear.

There's no magic bullet for pronouns. Different languages have different conventions, and within a single language, there can be different styles of use.

"Conan ran panther-like after the strange masked figure, getting closer whichever way he or she turned in the narrow alleyways. Near the city center, he tripped and sprawled as he crossed the darkened square."

No ambiguity and no retarded misued pronouns.

Quote from: PulpHerb on July 21, 2023, 03:23:28 PM

Sex isn't gender...that's part of the damn problem.

I don't buy that woke bullshit, and fewer Americans are as the normies are becoming more and more aware of the madness and chaos this is creating in society. And if we don't knock it off soon, China is going to eat our lunch, because they don't put up with the nonsense seeing it for what it is: corrosive acid, destructive to family and society.

Quote from: Brad on July 21, 2023, 05:24:40 PM
So serious question here: has Wokeman Games changed any of this stuff in editions of the games they publish for languages that have definitive masculine/feminine/neuter words like, I dunno, Spanish or French? I don't even know if DCC is in Spanish or not. Just curious.

My understanding is that Goodman Games don't directly release their other-language editions, but rather license it to be published by a local partner. That's a common arrangement.

French publisher Akileos handles the French edition:

http://www.akileos.fr/catalogue/dungeon-crawl-classics-livre-de-regles/

Spanish publisher Other Selves handles the Spanish edition:

http://www.other-selves.com/p/clasicos-del-mazmorreo.html

System Matters Verlag handles the German edition:

https://www.system-matters.de/produkt-kategorie/dungeon-crawl-classics/

Kaizoku Press handles the Italian edition:

https://dungeoncrawlclassics.it/

Galápagos handles the Portuguese edition: 

https://www.mundogalapagos.com.br/searchresults?Ntt=Dungeon%20Crawl&Rdm=703&Nr=product.x_productView:toda%20a%20loja&searchType=simple&type=search&Ns=product.x_hasStock|0

I don't know how any of these handles pronouns in their original printings or if there have been any revisions. I suspect all language details like pronoun use are left up to the partner.

Quote from: Thor's Nads on July 19, 2023, 03:52:10 AM
I looked at a copy of the newest DCC rulebook at a local con. The pronouns made it literally unlegible. I had no idea what was plural, what was singular, who was what.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tK1iJgVg5YYNAV6eATR6gNH3B0m2HwTb/view?usp=sharing

Quote from: jhkim on July 21, 2023, 04:44:47 PM
"Conan ran panther-like after the strange masked figure, getting closer whichever way they turned in the narrow alleyways. Near the city center, they tripped and sprawled as they crossed the darkened square."

In this case, it is clear that "they" refers to the masked figure, while "he" refers to Conan. If we do a search and replace, though,

Did you quote that passage correctly? I don't see "he" anywhere.

Quote from: jhkim on July 21, 2023, 04:44:47 PM
Regarding this example:

Quote from: DocJones on July 19, 2023, 03:19:03 PM
We need to gender neutralize this so no one is offended (confusion is but a small price to pay).

"The adventurers have been summoned to a mysterious black tower made of glass. They are
given a simple mission: protect the mage's estate while they are distracted weaving a mighty spell.
Surviving the five days of their spellcasting requires quick wits and sharp blades, for the estate has
mischievous guests and strange visitors. In the end, the mage demands one final task: stand by
their side as they bind a great horror from beyond!"

Pronoun trouble can happen many different ways. In this case, there is ambiguity between a group (plural they) and an individual referred to by singular "they". But there are also cases where singular "they" can reduce ambiguity compared to generic "he" -- such as if there is a male individual and an individual of unknown gender.

"Conan ran panther-like after the strange masked figure, getting closer whichever way they turned in the narrow alleyways. Near the city center, they tripped and sprawled as they crossed the darkened square."

In this case, it is clear that "they" refers to the masked figure, while "he" refers to Conan. If we do a search and replace, though,

"Conan ran panther-like after the strange masked figure, getting closer whichever way he turned in the narrow alleyways. Near the city center, he tripped and sprawled as he crossed the darkened square."

In the latter, the action is less clear.

There's no magic bullet for pronouns. Different languages have different conventions, and within a single language, there can be different styles of use.

"Conan ran panther-like after the strange masked figure, getting closer whichever way they (as in both of them) turned in the narrow alleyways. Near the city center, they (as in both of them) tripped and sprawled as they (as in both of them) crossed the darkened square."

But good try.

Quote from: Aglondir on July 21, 2023, 08:32:17 PM

Quote from: jhkim on July 21, 2023, 04:44:47 PM
"Conan ran panther-like after the strange masked figure, getting closer whichever way they turned in the narrow alleyways. Near the city center, they tripped and sprawled as they crossed the darkened square."

In this case, it is clear that "they" refers to the masked figure, while "he" refers to Conan. If we do a search and replace, though,

Did you quote that passage correctly? I don't see "he" anywhere.

Sorry. It's an off-the-cuff example, not a quote. I should have said "he" would refer to Conan. If changed to generic "he", then it becomes less clear if "he" refers to the masked figure or to Conan.

In the bigger picture, when using pronouns there are going to be ambiguous situations lots of the time -- it just take a little care in writing to resolve them. A language isn't objectively superior because it has more differentiated pronouns. Finnish people can express themselves perfectly clearly even though their language has no gendered pronouns, for example. Traditional Korean writing doesn't have third person pronouns at all - though modern Koreans have adopted the practice from translations.