Dated and Aging Rule Sets

Certified · September 30, 2014, 07:44:40 AM

Quote from: everloss;789356I didn't know there was a Street Fighter rpg, but otherwise, I would agree about every White Wolf game of the 90s. When I reread them, I think of Nirvana, Lords of Acid, and Type O Negative.

Street Fighter didn't really research their background material but does provide a fairly fun system for lighthearted play. It may or may not have partly led to the World of Darkness Combat book.

Unrelated, LoA and Type O tend to find their way into my Pandora stations.

The Ent · September 30, 2014, 01:33:00 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;789209I think a lot of games that are very heavy on math come out as "dated" as far as rules go. But what seems really 'dated' to me are a lot of the 90s RPGs, full of metaplots and feigned-sophistication and self-importance and pretensions of "artistry".

Agreed.

GAWD, the way some of those go on.

Quote from: everloss;789356I didn't know there was a Street Fighter rpg, but otherwise, I would agree about every White Wolf game of the 90s. When I reread them, I think of Nirvana, Lords of Acid, and Type O Negative.

Now, now, Type O was a fun band...
"Like fucking the dead!" = :rotfl:

Larsdangly · September 30, 2014, 05:41:23 PM

One that I would say feels timeless is 2nd edition Runequest (this is the first edition most people saw, so you'll be forgiven if you think of it as the 'original'). You could probably say the same of most Chaosium games (certainly 1st edition CoC and Pendragon). These folks were absolutely expert at writing games that can be put on a shelf for 40 years and come back off looking fresher than most of the stuff published now. It is kind of sobering to compare their 1978 (!) core rulebook to other games from that era. Does anything come close to holding up so well?

Nexus · September 30, 2014, 07:44:50 PM

Quote from: Beagle;789385Any game where the main appeal is comedy and jokes becomes dated the moment you read it a second time.

Comedy is difficult to maintain. Its very fragile and personal.

cranebump · September 30, 2014, 07:51:45 PM

Quote from: Ladybird;789395Comedy is hard, and best handled by the group.

Indeed. And when a character shouts at another character (just before PCvPC combat between the two), "THAT'S IT! YOU'RE MINE! EN GARDE!" and succeeds to boink himself between the eyes with his own staff (thanks to a Paizo crit card), I think you effectively have comedy...in a BFRPG "serious" fantasy game.

David Johansen · September 30, 2014, 08:12:51 PM

Quote from: RPGPundit;789209I think a lot of games that are very heavy on math come out as "dated" as far as rules go. But what seems really 'dated' to me are a lot of the 90s RPGs, full of metaplots and feigned-sophistication and self-importance and pretensions of "artistry".

I don't think there's anything wrong with honestly striving to improve the state of the art or being proud of your work but what White Wolf did was simply ugly. They crapped all over everyone else. They said that you were a loser if you still played D&D. They said you were cool if you played their games. Sure it was their schtik but it was really offensive.

Pretentious doesn't begin to cover it.

James Gillen · September 30, 2014, 08:31:04 PM

Quote from: Nexus;789469Comedy is difficult to maintain. Its very fragile and personal.

Comedy is not pretty.

jg

The Butcher · September 30, 2014, 10:57:27 PM

Quote from: David Johansen;789476I don't think there's anything wrong with honestly striving to improve the state of the art or being proud of your work but what White Wolf did was simply ugly. They crapped all over everyone else. They said that you were a loser if you still played D&D. They said you were cool if you played their games. Sure it was their schtik but it was really offensive.

Pretentious doesn't begin to cover it.

Hey, Apple did the same for much of its existence, and Steve Jobs is still hailed as a saint in some circles.

Besides, the games were good and that's the only metric that matters. We played AD&D 2e and V:tM (LARP, even) and no one batted an eye. Tribalisms are for fools.

Ravenswing · October 01, 2014, 05:44:22 AM

Quote from: David Johansen;789476I don't think there's anything wrong with honestly striving to improve the state of the art or being proud of your work but what White Wolf did was simply ugly. They crapped all over everyone else. They said that you were a loser if you still played D&D. They said you were cool if you played their games. Sure it was their schtik but it was really offensive.

Depends, I suppose, to the degree that you're invested in D&D.

Since I haven't played it in over 20 years or GMed it in 35, I'm not particularly offended.

David Johansen · October 01, 2014, 02:51:52 PM

No, it was one of those defining moments of the subculture that increased the degree of tribalism and hostility. I wasn't a big fan of D&D at the time (okay I was already a noted D&D hater) but I still found White Wolf's condescending elitism offensive. It's really sad, at one point White Wolf was a pretty decent gaming magazine.

Bren · October 01, 2014, 05:26:23 PM

And to think, by never buying, reading, or playing a White Wolf game I entirely and happily missed having to endure that condescending talk about other games. Now if only people on the Internet didn't keep pointing me at links to condescending Forge talk and the TBP wasn't filled with the inane comments of people who don't want to talk about playing RPGs I'd have won the gaming trifecta.

yabaziou · October 01, 2014, 05:31:18 PM

Which is hilarious about that attitude is the speed xith which WW published its own D20 setting when the OGL came in existence and also hired Monte Cook, one of the most proeminent D&D writer for writing his D20 take on World of Darness !

Armchair Gamer · October 01, 2014, 05:47:58 PM

The only WW products I own, aside from free PDFs they've offered, are a used copy of Adventure! and the 3rd Edition Ravenloft material. So how much of this 'condescension' came from the design staff, how much from editorials in WW Magazine/Inphobia (which was notorious for one of the first Internet marketing failures on r.g.f.misc), and how much from the fans?

Ravenswing · October 01, 2014, 11:58:12 PM

Quote from: David Johansen;789579No, it was one of those defining moments of the subculture that increased the degree of tribalism and hostility. I wasn't a big fan of D&D at the time (okay I was already a noted D&D hater) but I still found White Wolf's condescending elitism offensive. It's really sad, at one point White Wolf was a pretty decent gaming magazine.

It's only "defining" if people notice.

I imagine there are hundreds of thousands of D&D players who never noticed.

I imagine there were tens of thousands of WoD fans who never played, or wanted to play, D&D ... or indeed any tabletop at all.

I know the perspective of forum fanatics over the years is heavily invested in such battles, but really, there are countless gamers who just want to play games.

David Johansen · October 02, 2014, 12:16:58 AM

Fair enough though it went on in gaming magazines almost before there was an internet and it certainly went on in gaming stores and at conventions.

But you're right, it's past time we all grew up a bit.