Quote from: Gabriel2;786814It really boils down to this.

Why do I have to be objective, but you get to be subjective?  I must objectively show it is dated.  Meanwhile, you say that it isn't dated because of your personal preference.

Can I objectively prove that percentile systems are dated?

Are they "coming from or belonging to a time in the past"?

Yes.  I think they are.  Most of them seemed to occupy the 80s.  Percentile systems are considerably rarer now.  Feel free to list as many non-OSR, non-legacy, 21st century percentile systems you like.  I am genuinely curious.  Fuck, I may buy a hardcover version of BRP just because of this thread.

Are they "outmoded, old-fashioned"?

I do believe it can be said they are.  For the past 15 years most everything has been about the d20 system.  It is the dominant kind of system by far.  I don't know about 5e, but it does seem that percentile elements have been largely removed or deprecated from games.  There has actually been some commentary on these boards about the return of such archaic methods such as random percentile charts ala the AD&D 1e days and how it is a return to "old school."  If it's not old fashioned, it's not old school, or "dated."

You speak of double standards, but somehow "d20 System" (rehashed D&D) is not "legacy" while (for instance) the whole BRP family is.

Sheer volume of different rules sets over the past 15 years? Probably "dice pool" type mechanisms. Whether loving or hating it, World of Darkness clearly had a big impact on the hipsters at RPGnet who buy games probably faster than they can play them. And many are designed with limited replay value.

But what if "dated" means out of print? Supplanted by a "new school" using the brand name? What, then, has actually stayed in print, with only minor changes as fans and detractors alike gauge things, since 1975? Not only that, but from a publisher who's been in business even longer?

Tunnels & Trolls. And indeed the 5th (1979) edition is a true classic if any RPG is. In 2005, two new editions hit the market: 5.5, an expansion of 5th; and notably revised 7th. (The "sixth edition" was an unauthorized text disseminated on the internet.)

My impression is that 7th and 7.5 (2008) have not supplanted 5th in popularity. Not that T&T is plagued with "edition wars" like D&D or Traveller. In the context of the game's culture, it has remained in essence the same all along, so variants tend to yield a friendly trade in ideas.

I do like Tunnels and Trolls.  It is, however, one of those games that only runs because the GM keeps it running.  Rather like an old car.  It's much more work, to my mind, than keeping a stack of weapon and critical tables alphabetized.

Quote from: David Johansen;786948I do like Tunnels and Trolls.  It is, however, one of those games that only runs because the GM keeps it running.  Rather like an old car.  It's much more work, to my mind, than keeping a stack of weapon and critical tables alphabetized.

I think it's pretty nutty, but generation after generation there are people who find they like it a lot, perhaps even favor it over all the slick systems that have come since.

Assuming you're talking about Tunnels and Trolls, have you looked at Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes?  It always amuses me that such a tight and slick game can run on the same engine.  T&T introduced armor as DR and spell points and arguably unified mechanics to gaming.  Is seventh out now?  I should get a copy.

Quote from: David Johansen;786952Assuming you're talking about Tunnels and Trolls, have you looked at Mercenaries, Spies, and Private Eyes?  It always amuses me that such a tight and slick game can run on the same engine.  T&T introduced armor as DR and spell points and arguably unified mechanics to gaming.  Is seventh out now?  I should get a copy.

I've got MSPE, and enjoyed it despite the prediction of the shop clerk who tried to talk me out of it. I found the skills system a bit cumbersome, though, and martial arts rather too powerful.

As for armor as DR, I think the original armor as HP approach works better with the standard T&T hand-to-hand combat system. That's used rarely (and even less often by armor-clad warriors) in MSPE, though.

MSPE needs a modern equipment supplement.  The assumption in the eighties was still that armor would never overtake firepower.  And while it hasn't quite, normal rounds against Kevlar with trauma plates really aren't properly represented by the existing MSPE armor rules.

I never found skills cumbersome and martial arts are no match for bullets but Martial arts and a disgustingly high Luck score might be.

I think the biggest difference is between the two games is MSPE's move away from the total the dice and adds and compare melee system which tends to lead to slow, grinding fights if you aren't using Monster Ratings.  Which tend towards a couple rounds of the PCs getting beaten up while the TTYF's take their toll followed by a hard and sharp death spiral for the monsters.  Monster ratings are T&T's best and worst rule.

Quote from: David Johansen;786959Monster ratings are T&T's best and worst rule.

Absolutely. The idea of having monsters represented by a SINGLE number is unequalled audacity. Sure there are some downsides, but that's the half-genius Ken St Andre style for you.

One really dated rule that comes to mind:  Gravity.

I'm not sure 'old' always means 'needs replaced'.

Gravity is a harsh mistress.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;787016Gravity is a harsh mistress.

JG

Though unlike Mistress Magda Gravity doesn't charge 400 dollars an hour.

..but perhaps I've said too much.

I think a lot of games that are very heavy on math come out as "dated" as far as rules go.  But what seems really 'dated' to me are a lot of the 90s RPGs, full of metaplots and feigned-sophistication and self-importance and pretensions of "artistry".

Quote from: RPGPundit;789209But what seems really 'dated' to me are a lot of the 90s RPGs, full of metaplots and feigned-sophistication and self-importance and pretensions of "artistry".

So, everything White Wolf, with the exception of Street Fighter?

Quote from: Certified;789221So, everything White Wolf, with the exception of Street Fighter?

I didn't know there was a Street Fighter rpg, but otherwise, I would agree about every White Wolf game of the 90s. When I reread them, I think of Nirvana, Lords of Acid, and Type O Negative.

Any game where the main appeal is comedy and jokes becomes dated the moment you read it a second time.

Quote from: Beagle;789385Any game where the main appeal is comedy and jokes becomes dated the moment you read it a second time.

Comedy is hard, and best handled by the group. Paranoia, frex, isn't funny because of the writing, but because of the situations it encourages in play... but on the other hand, in our last Star Wars game some of us were laughing to the point of crying, same with my Fighting Fantasy game a few weeks ago (Wizard cast Attraction spell on an NPC Ogre; many single-innuendos in the direction of our dwarf battlebabe followed), or the slapstick comedy of errors that percentile systems can produce.