I believe games can feel "aged" or "dated" in terms of presentation. Palladium's games certainly do feel like an artifact from an earlier era because of Kevin Siembieda's openly atavistic approach to layout and editing.

As for the rules themselves, well, shit, I don't even know where to start. Does poker feel dated to you? What about chess? It's what, 1000 years old? 2000? I have to agree with the "rules don't age" crowd.

It's probably got something to do with the fact that some of us saw the rise of RPGs and/or one or more "firsts" in RPG design, and have stratified these innovations across the temporal evolution of the hobby, thus identifying certain game design decisions with certain Zeitgeists and trends such as hardcore simulationism in the late 1970s and early 1980s, GM-as-auteur storytelling in the late 1980s and early 1990s, and the d20 boom and/or the RPG-as-shared-narrative "storygaming" movement of the 2000s. Game design, like every other branch of human activity, does have its fads; I know I am sick to death of the super fiddly Euro boardgame fad over at our neighboring hobby.

Quote from: Certified;786110When is it time to update a rule set?

Let's look at why rules get updated...
1. They don't (CoC 1-6)
2. To make more money (WotC 3.5)
3. Someone else gets put in charge of an existing system and institutes change to show how great a designer they are. (SR 4th)
4. Ideology (WFRP3)
5. Something actually needed to be fixed (SR 2nd)
...there's your answer.

Quote from: Certified;786110What makes rules feel dated?

An insecurity on the part of the observer that requires them to manufacture objective value judgments about subjective preferences.

Quote from: The Butcher;786158As for the rules themselves, well, shit, I don't even know where to start. Does poker feel dated to you? What about chess? It's what, 1000 years old? 2000? I have to agree with the "rules don't age" crowd.

You know Chess 2 came out recently, right?

Anyway, sometimes bits of mechanics do age, because gamers have used them at the table and found ways of getting an equivalent result in a simpler way or without some other quirk of the older rules, and then it's going to feel inconvenient when you go back. Saying something feels aged or dated isn't necessarily a criticism; I'm sure plenty of modern-day designs will feel dated in ten year's time. We aren't at the pinnacle of game design, just the most recent set of game design.

So Marvel Super Heroes, for example (Which I love), has it's karma mechanism to buy successes (It's really a points-allocation system), but you can't just buy them straight out. Does it work, kinda (Unless you have a player who is bad at math), but in a more recent design, I'd just hand over karma and move on, or the numbers will be smaller (Because plenty of players have difficulty with double-digit subtraction), or they'll be presented differently (Like FATE).

Someone is going to chime in with "well people should be better at maths", and while I'd agree that would be nice, it's not the skill that people come to RPG sessions to exercise, people come to immerse themselves in virtual worlds. "Making the game easier to play will make it less fun to play" is a very dated assumption (And, fortunately, one we seem long past).

WFRP and 40k still use armour saves, so combat goes "do you hit, do you hurt the enemy's flesh, does their armour prevent the blow" - eh? The save is being applied as the last-ditch resolution, but by what's going on in the world, shouldn't it be hit - armour - wound?
The Warhammer RPG's have Weapon and Ballistic skills as separate values, and that's a directly-lifted item from the first versions of the wargame. It feels a bit strange, because it doesn't take into account the character's Strength, Toughness, Initiative and Agility scores, it just sits on it's own.

For me, rules are outdated when they feel too 1980s crunchy (what leaps to mind is The Morrow Project) or when they're too 1990s freeform (what leaps to mind is Over the Edge). Both good games in their own right, but too dated. I think a lot of modern games hit the target between crunch and freeform that I like so much.

A friend of mine commented the other day that the oWoD system feels very dated. I can see that, in a way, since I think it can lend itself to being cartoony if not kept on a tight leash (even though I really enjoy the system).

• Non-Unified Mechanics / a different resolution system for every different thing.
• Alignments
• Obsession with "REALISM" (usually used as a disempowerment stick) instead of any attempt at simulation
• Percentile Systems as primary task resolution
• Cross referencing charts for the act of task resolution
• Long judgemental rants in the text about how to GM and play the RIGHT WAY.

Time and experience sometimes shows that game 'clever ideas' don't work that well, or someone comes up with an even better idea to do things.

For example, one problem I had with a lot of early D&D editions was the roll D20 for this, %ile for that. There was no real... point to doing it that way, it was just that way because.

3e changing things to all use D20 + stuff? That was evolutionary, and, I maintain, better. The hodgepodge early systems are dated.

Now, earlier editions had flatter power curves, morale rules, GP = XP, and a bunch of other ideas. Some of these have proven really good ideas, still.


I think there's a middle ground. Some ideas just prove clunky over time and stuff improves/innovates. Some stuff is just taste and character -- complex rules vs. simple rules isn't an evolution or anything, just... different.


I think there are three components of aging:
Presentation. Poorly laid out printer stacks of rules? Yeah, as desktop publishing gets better... some older games lose their charm.

Rule structure. When something is new and untried, it has a fresh charm to it. Over years of experience, though? The weight of evidence can point to systems that suit certain goals better.

Innovation. Some ideas are just... new. I loved Torg possibility points. But later ideas, like Fate Aspects, grapple with these ideas in a more interesting and effective way.

Yeah, not all new things are better. Not all old things suck. But, you know, stuff changes.

Quote from: Will;786183Presentation. Poorly laid out printer stacks of rules? Yeah, as desktop publishing gets better... some older games lose their charm.

I just don't understand this. OD&D as laid out and printed in 1974 would still be the same game if it was reprinted today and had an Indesign layout guru take the text and $200K of big name artist art and give it an award-winning modern presentation. It might look 1000% better, but the actual game would be unchanged.

It depends on the boundaries of what you are calling 'the game.' Presentation matters.

I mean, it's the reason I'm mapping with Hexographer vs. Campaign Cartographer. CC is a more robust program capable of doing FAR more.

But the UI is like coding or something crazy, it's obnoxious to use and reference. Hexographer doesn't do as much, but it does what it does in a very approachable, easy way.

I mean, hey, this is just rules, right?


Ge҉̰̹͓̖̻n̛̝̣̙̘ę̣r̝̪̻̼̳̭̮a̺ṭ̸̳̞̥͍͖i͓ng̸̻̘̫̭̫ ̵Aḇ̹̬̤̰̦͙͜i̖͢ļ͇̝͓͕͖ͅi̼̪͔͍̱͞t̝͚̝͉y̘̥̠̻ͅͅ S͏̲̖ͅc̞͙͙̼̠͔o̘̠̤͍͠r͢ḙ̸̬s͓̝͈̬̱͇
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̶̟̣͎͓̪T͓̙̣͔̀h̻̟͙̦e̷̝̗̭̯͎̗̹r̭e̶̜̹͈ ͉̜̜̰͚͟ͅa̻̱r̜̩e̱͚̮̺̦̫̰̕ ͚̻̦̮̩̺̠a̸͉͇̘̱̺ ̢̙ͅn͔̹̣ụ̼̤̦͡m̳͔̘̺̯b̛͇̭̠̭̦̹̩er͏̻͓ ̴͎̯̜̳̳̙̹o̶̙̳̣͈̭͎͔f̴̳̼ ͙͓̟͖͔d̶̻̫̝͍i͉͚f̘̟͞f͎̱̫ȩ̣̭̝r̶̼͎ḛ͍n͉͙̹̠̱̣t͓͔͜ ͍m̞̖̞͚e̞̞̩͔̮͉ͅt̻̬͓̥̯̣̞ḫ̰͚̟ͅo̤͎̲̘d̗̮̣s̟̩͈̥ ͚̹͡ų̜͖̲͓s͖̪e̮d͔͙̹̱̺̤ ̩̖͍̥t͏̖͕͖o͉͉̫͕̥͕̤͟ g̮e̡̬̟̜̬ṋ͕͔e̳̜̺̻̟͙r̕a̳͚̮̥̳ͅṯ͙̻̟͞e̷̫̤̲͍ ̳͕a̷b̜̰̳̮̯͎̲i̯̠̫̹͉̼̮l̡͚ìt̡̙̯̣͇͚͓y̛͇̗̰̜̜͕ ͅs̥̭c̜̤̝o̵̰̮̖̼r͇̥̬̮̘̖̻e̷͕̖͓̹̖̦̮s͍͈͜.̟͈̗̭ͅ E̝͈̖̮̯̺͎a͖c̘͔̟̤̠ẖ̛̠̮ ̨̲̮̗̬̤o̫̫̤͔̭͟f̘̪̟̹͠ ̻̗̣̲t҉h̭̲ḙ̩͔̺̭s͚͎̙̳͕̻̫e͙͔̱͔
ͅm̤̤̘̥̩̻͢e̦̙̙͕t̡̜̜̗̦̯͍̜h͚̭ͅo̭d̶͕͕͍̝̲͈ś ̲͎̝̰̮g̹͍̩͞i̧̞̳̭̲̮̺̥v̨̫e͏̜̥̬ṣ̵̟̦̟̱̮̹ ̹͎̳̹̱a̴̭̜̖̱̲͍͈ ̠͙̫͕di̧̗f̱̯̜f̺̣͖͖e̱r͍̭̯͚̩ͅe̛̥̫̞̝̯͇̘n̡̯̩̦̪̪̭t ͘ļ̹̹̺̗̼̹ev͎̺̪͔̞̮͢e҉̙̟͖͉ḻ̟͍͈̬ ͖̙o̲̰f̠̻͝ ̫͓f̫l͝ȩ̦̬͈x̯͕̥i̼̠͈̭ͅb̴̞i̧̜͇͕͙͉͖l̖͓̯̭i̬̙͈̬͚̘t̳͎͚͍͈̱̯y̷̦̯̩͔̠ ̠͔a̜̱͙nd̵͎ ̗̰̬̥̦͕̟ra̪̤̲̜̻͍͇n̴do͕͈̲̲ͅm̴̙̝̪̤͕̙n͉̰̝̺̣e̡͙̬͔̬͚̥ss̭̖̳̤̦̰͚ ̪͉͚͍͚̪̩t̼̩̙̜̺͈o̞̲̻͖̙ ̘͇̻͜c̗͕͎̬̣ͅḥ̮̪̰͇̳ͅa̗͇̠r̵̞̫̘͍͇act̠̯̣͞e̸r̯͈̮͉͈̱̥ ͔̻g͎̭̱͇͕̣̕e҉̝̜̜̺̻̣̥ņe̥̰̩͟r̙̲a̠̫̪͟t̟̣i͠o̷̫̮͇n.͔͚͍̝͎͚͡
̠̫̙͔̞̤̻
҉͓̪̠̘̜R͇̙̲̳̦͖a̖̺̦͞c̹̫̗̘̦͡i̙̮a͙̺̗l̩̬͙̜̗̣͕̀ ̲̖̼ͅm͏o͎̬̪̙d͚͍̝̲͚̝̺i̤̜͚̹f̟͜i̢̙̼̖̭͍e͙̰̺̪̕ṟ̝̱̯ś̬ (̟̬͙̹͕a̬̜̭d͓̫̝͇̪̠̤j͓̲͕͉̙̱͟u̵̝͇͎̗͔͍ś̥̖͈̪̤t̺̯̠m̵̞̹en͓͇̠̯͕t͏̝̖͙̖͎̳s͎̦͜ ̻̯̥̳̦̰͝m̯a̰̞d͚͢e̳͕̦͝ ͎̥̗t̢̟̭o͈ y̷̼͚͓͙̗o̵̩͚̯̼̝u̝̻̱̱͉̘̗͜ṛ̼͉̦̰̫͟ͅ ̮ą̜͇̺b̜̱̣̝͘i̕l͇̜̠̕i͟t̵̻y͕̠͕̳ ̴̳ş͓̯̤̫̲̰ç̩͈͕͚͔̼o̸͓̬͇r̢̬̭͚̩͙ͅͅe͇s̘̙ ̢d̢͎̦̞̲͈̯ͅu̲͢e̡͍̥̟̹̩̻ ̛̫̠͚̠t̪o̻̳͓̭ ̛̖̟̻͇̲ͅy͔̙͝o͏̜͎̞̰͍u̴͉͖r̩͕ ̧̲̮͚͇̠̼c̲͙̫͚̰͜ẖ̸̞̜ͅa̰̪͎̩̘r̢͙a̪̺̝͟c͈̰̟͕͇t͓̪͖̣̮e̛̬̜̠̭̪r̖͖͔̩̰̰̲'̙s͏̲̻͙̖
̺͝r͎̘̗a̰͈̣̳͝c̨̺̮̯͖͓̮e—̷ṣ̘̹e̶̹̻̗e̱̗͍͔̪͠ ͎̠̼̜̼͡Ra̩̰̼̣̼̳c͇̭̗̥̤̲̯̀ȩ̤͍s̛͎̳͉)̬͓ ̮͚͓̝͜a̳̺̲̜̟̯̞r̰̖̤e ̜̱̭̯a͚͡p̠̪͓̥͢p̯̻̭̮͔ḽ̰̞ͅḭ̺͍̞̻́e̺̣͇̕d͉̳͖̩ͅ ͎̖̙͉̩a̱͓̣̝͔̦͓f̠̞̫ͅt̗͖̱e̟̗̳͠r̳ͅ ̙̺̘̭̻̥̠t̡̮̠̼̘̟̬̰h̸̭̝̫͈e͇͢ ̢̮̜̺͇͚ͅs̩̟̲̣̠̠̘ć̦̣͓̪͍̰̝o͎̫͓r͇̤̤̖̳e̟̬͕̫͕͉͞s͎̲͕̝̭͚̣ ͏͙̫̥̙͙̜̜a̬̪̺̙͢r͍̕e̮̖ ̶͓̖̣͙͙͔ͅg̫̰̜̫ḛṇ̪̯͙̘ͅe̬͎r̶̥͕̲̯̰̮a͡te̯̦d͉͔̜̼.̬͢

Quote from: Gabriel2;786179

• Non-Unified Mechanics / a different resolution system for every different thing.
• Alignments
• Obsession with "REALISM" (usually used as a disempowerment stick) instead of any attempt at simulation
• Percentile Systems as primary task resolution
• Cross referencing charts for the act of task resolution
• Long judgemental rants in the text about how to GM and play the RIGHT WAY.

Really, this proves my thought, it's just a bullshit list of things YOU don't care for. I could add in my own shopping cart of pet bugaboos:
- Classes/Levels (after all the very first RPG had them... why haven't we 'moved on'?)
- Dice Pools
- XP for killing things or loot
- Excessive focus on combat (nice and vague)
- Hit Points (particularly their implementation in D&D... surely we've 'evolved' past that?)

I really like CRKrueger's wisdom on it: "An insecurity on the part of the observer that requires them to manufacture objective value judgments about subjective preferences."

Quote from: RandallS;786185I just don't understand this. OD&D as laid out and printed in 1974 would still be the same game if it was reprinted today and had an Indesign layout guru take the text and $200K of big name artist art and give it an award-winning modern presentation. It might look 1000% better, but the actual game would be unchanged.

That's pretty much what some of the OSR games are... and why I sold off my (never played) OD&D box set but continue to enjoy S&W, LotFP, etc. Mostly because the writing/organization in the newer formats is so much easier to follow.
Like Will said, 'presentation matters.'

Quote from: Will;786188It depends on the boundaries of what you are calling 'the game.' Presentation matters.

So long as it is readable, presentation does not matter all that much to me. Great art says nothing about the quality of the game -- and it's the game rules I'm interested. Layout? I prefer basic "like a book" layout as it is more readable. I hate text over graphics, etc. as this just makes the actual rules harder to read. I'm a stubstance over form type of guy.

QuoteI mean, hey, this is just rules, right?

Ge҉̰̹͓̖̻n̛̝̣̙̘ę̣r̝̪̻̼̳̭̮a̺ṭ̸̳̞̥͍͖i͓ng̸̻̘̫̭̫ ̵Aḇ̹̬̤̰̦͙͜i̖͢ļ͇̝͓͕͖ͅi̼̪͔͍̱͞t̝͚̝͉y̘̥̠̻ͅͅ S͏̲̖ͅc̞͙͙̼̠͔o̘̠̤͍͠r͢ḙ̸̬s͓̝͈̬̱͇
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̶̟̣͎͓̪T͓̙̣͔̀h̻̟͙̦e̷̝̗̭̯͎̗̹r̭e̶̜̹͈ ͉̜̜̰͚͟ͅa̻̱r̜̩e̱͚̮̺̦̫̰̕ ͚̻̦̮̩̺̠a̸͉͇̘̱̺ ̢̙ͅn͔̹̣ụ̼̤̦͡m̳͔̘̺̯b̛͇̭̠̭̦̹̩er͏̻͓ ̴͎̯̜̳̳̙̹o̶̙̳̣͈̭͎͔f̴̳̼ ͙͓̟͖͔d̶̻̫̝͍i͉͚f̘̟͞f͎̱̫ȩ̣̭̝r̶̼͎ḛ͍n͉͙̹̠̱̣t͓͔͜ ͍m̞̖̞͚e̞̞̩͔̮͉ͅt̻̬͓̥̯̣̞ḫ̰͚̟ͅo̤͎̲̘d̗̮̣s̟̩͈̥ ͚̹͡ų̜͖̲͓s͖̪e̮d͔͙̹̱̺̤ ̩̖͍̥t͏̖͕͖o͉͉̫͕̥͕̤͟ g̮e̡̬̟̜̬ṋ͕͔e̳̜̺̻̟͙r̕a̳͚̮̥̳ͅṯ͙̻̟͞e̷̫̤̲͍ ̳͕a̷b̜̰̳̮̯͎̲i̯̠̫̹͉̼̮l̡͚ìt̡̙̯̣͇͚͓y̛͇̗̰̜̜͕ ͅs̥̭c̜̤̝o̵̰̮̖̼r͇̥̬̮̘̖̻e̷͕̖͓̹̖̦̮s͍͈͜.̟͈̗̭ͅ E̝͈̖̮̯̺͎a͖c̘͔̟̤̠ẖ̛̠̮ ̨̲̮̗̬̤o̫̫̤͔̭͟f̘̪̟̹͠ ̻̗̣̲t҉h̭̲ḙ̩͔̺̭s͚͎̙̳͕̻̫e͙͔̱͔
ͅm̤̤̘̥̩̻͢e̦̙̙͕t̡̜̜̗̦̯͍̜h͚̭ͅo̭d̶͕͕͍̝̲͈ś ̲͎̝̰̮g̹͍̩͞i̧̞̳̭̲̮̺̥v̨̫e͏̜̥̬ṣ̵̟̦̟̱̮̹ ̹͎̳̹̱a̴̭̜̖̱̲͍͈ ̠͙̫͕di̧̗f̱̯̜f̺̣͖͖e̱r͍̭̯͚̩ͅe̛̥̫̞̝̯͇̘n̡̯̩̦̪̪̭t ͘ļ̹̹̺̗̼̹ev͎̺̪͔̞̮͢e҉̙̟͖͉ḻ̟͍͈̬ ͖̙o̲̰f̠̻͝ ̫͓f̫l͝ȩ̦̬͈x̯͕̥i̼̠͈̭ͅb̴̞i̧̜͇͕͙͉͖l̖͓̯̭i̬̙͈̬͚̘t̳͎͚͍͈̱̯y̷̦̯̩͔̠ ̠͔a̜̱͙nd̵͎ ̗̰̬̥̦͕̟ra̪̤̲̜̻͍͇n̴do͕͈̲̲ͅm̴̙̝̪̤͕̙n͉̰̝̺̣e̡͙̬͔̬͚̥ss̭̖̳̤̦̰͚ ̪͉͚͍͚̪̩t̼̩̙̜̺͈o̞̲̻͖̙ ̘͇̻͜c̗͕͎̬̣ͅḥ̮̪̰͇̳ͅa̗͇̠r̵̞̫̘͍͇act̠̯̣͞e̸r̯͈̮͉͈̱̥ ͔̻g͎̭̱͇͕̣̕e҉̝̜̜̺̻̣̥ņe̥̰̩͟r̙̲a̠̫̪͟t̟̣i͠o̷̫̮͇n.͔͚͍̝͎͚͡
̠̫̙͔̞̤̻
҉͓̪̠̘̜R͇̙̲̳̦͖a̖̺̦͞c̹̫̗̘̦͡i̙̮a͙̺̗l̩̬͙̜̗̣͕̀ ̲̖̼ͅm͏o͎̬̪̙d͚͍̝̲͚̝̺i̤̜͚̹f̟͜i̢̙̼̖̭͍e͙̰̺̪̕ṟ̝̱̯ś̬ (̟̬͙̹͕a̬̜̭d͓̫̝͇̪̠̤j͓̲͕͉̙̱͟u̵̝͇͎̗͔͍ś̥̖͈̪̤t̺̯̠m̵̞̹en͓͇̠̯͕t͏̝̖͙̖͎̳s͎̦͜ ̻̯̥̳̦̰͝m̯a̰̞d͚͢e̳͕̦͝ ͎̥̗t̢̟̭o͈ y̷̼͚͓͙̗o̵̩͚̯̼̝u̝̻̱̱͉̘̗͜ṛ̼͉̦̰̫͟ͅ ̮ą̜͇̺b̜̱̣̝͘i̕l͇̜̠̕i͟t̵̻y͕̠͕̳ ̴̳ş͓̯̤̫̲̰ç̩͈͕͚͔̼o̸͓̬͇r̢̬̭͚̩͙ͅͅe͇s̘̙ ̢d̢͎̦̞̲͈̯ͅu̲͢e̡͍̥̟̹̩̻ ̛̫̠͚̠t̪o̻̳͓̭ ̛̖̟̻͇̲ͅy͔̙͝o͏̜͎̞̰͍u̴͉͖r̩͕ ̧̲̮͚͇̠̼c̲͙̫͚̰͜ẖ̸̞̜ͅa̰̪͎̩̘r̢͙a̪̺̝͟c͈̰̟͕͇t͓̪͖̣̮e̛̬̜̠̭̪r̖͖͔̩̰̰̲'̙s͏̲̻͙̖
̺͝r͎̘̗a̰͈̣̳͝c̨̺̮̯͖͓̮e—̷ṣ̘̹e̶̹̻̗e̱̗͍͔̪͠ ͎̠̼̜̼͡Ra̩̰̼̣̼̳c͇̭̗̥̤̲̯̀ȩ̤͍s̛͎̳͉)̬͓ ̮͚͓̝͜a̳̺̲̜̟̯̞r̰̖̤e ̜̱̭̯a͚͡p̠̪͓̥͢p̯̻̭̮͔ḽ̰̞ͅḭ̺͍̞̻́e̺̣͇̕d͉̳͖̩ͅ ͎̖̙͉̩a̱͓̣̝͔̦͓f̠̞̫ͅt̗͖̱e̟̗̳͠r̳ͅ ̙̺̘̭̻̥̠t̡̮̠̼̘̟̬̰h̸̭̝̫͈e͇͢ ̢̮̜̺͇͚ͅs̩̟̲̣̠̠̘ć̦̣͓̪͍̰̝o͎̫͓r͇̤̤̖̳e̟̬͕̫͕͉͞s͎̲͕̝̭͚̣ ͏͙̫̥̙͙̜̜a̬̪̺̙͢r͍̕e̮̖ ̶͓̖̣͙͙͔ͅg̫̰̜̫ḛṇ̪̯͙̘ͅe̬͎r̶̥͕̲̯̰̮a͡te̯̦d͉͔̜̼.̬͢

I have a lot of RPGs dating back to the 1970s and I don't have anything that bad. Okay, I have some photocopies of old amateur Dippy zines that are almost that hard to read, but that doesn't really count.

Quote from: Simlasa;786194Really this just proves my thought, it's just a bullshit list of things YOU don't care for. I could add in my own shopping cart of pet bugaboos:
- Classes/Levels (after all the very first RPG had them... why haven't we 'moved on'?)
- Dice Pools
- XP for killing things or loot
- Excessive focus on combat (nice and vague)

I really like CRKrueger's wisdom on it: "An insecurity on the part of the observer that requires them to manufacture objective value judgments about subjective preferences."

As I recall, the question was: "What makes rules feel dated?"

Am I supposed to answer for someone else?  Please tell me objectively how I should feel.  Please, I'm so insecure.  Tell me what to think!  I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK!  SIMLASA TELL ME!  TELL ME!!!!!

Anyway...

Initially I wasn't going to list Percentile Systems as feeling inherently dated to me, but then I realized that they do strike me as antiquated.  I started trying to think of any modern Percentile Systems.  The only ones which came to mind were the WH40K games, which are effectively descendants of a 80s era system.  And yes, they feel old and clunky.  Have any percentile systems been published in the past 10 years which aren't legacy systems or meant to fill an OSR niche?

Quote from: The Butcher;786158As for the rules themselves, well, shit, I don't even know where to start. Does poker feel dated to you? What about chess? It's what, 1000 years old? 2000? I have to agree with the "rules don't age" crowd.

Both card games and board games like chess are interesting cases in point, though, because they have undoubtedly evolved continuously over the course of hundreds or thousands of years. The rules have aged in the sense that they've been slowly developed and refined over the centuries. I'm sure the version of chess that the Vikings were playing is a fun game and would still be fun to play now, but chess has changed since then.

Percentile often feels dated unless the game is clever about it.

If the only reason things are percentile is BECAUSE, then it feels like poorly thought out early design.

CoC, on the other hand, %ile allows for easy room to have crits, easy incremental skill ups, and so on. It just wouldn't work as well using d20 unless you change the system drastically. (It doesn't handle variable difficulties well, but it's fast)

UA, as far as I remember, does cute stuff with %ile: melee damage is equal to two dice added together, while gunfire is equal to the actual roll.
Double numbers (55, 22, etc) have special effects.
Passions let you swap the dice around when advantageous.

It's a system that works nicely, and, again, wouldn't really work with a die change without utterly changing the system.

But if you are adding ability score to % skill and trying to best an target number... yeah, it's dated.

As an example of evolution, Kult had (at some point) a system of 'roll percent and subtract it from your skill'.
The UA system was effectively identical to it, but runs faster and, thus, flat-out better.

Quote from: Gabriel2;786197Initially I wasn't going to list Percentile Systems as feeling inherently dated to me, but then I realized that they do strike me as antiquated.  I started trying to think of any modern Percentile Systems.  The only ones which came to mind were the WH40K games, which are effectively descendants of a 80s era system.  And yes, they feel old and clunky.  Have any percentile systems been published in the past 10 years which aren't legacy systems or meant to fill an OSR niche?

Eclipse Phase.

I think the problem with the 40k systems isn't so much their lineage from WFRP1e - fine RPG that, solid dwarf workmanship, will last you decades - but the crap that they picked up from WFRP2e's D&D3.x influence, all the stupid little twiddly feats and talents that make playing it a nightmare.

So... yeah, I'd agree it feels dated, but not for the reason you describe