Quote from: Will;786543Another sign of aged rules:
Pages and pages of gun stats in a game of light-hearted cinematic mayhem.

(I'm looking at you, Feng Shui. WTF??)

Really, with all the tactical rails and modular weapon systems these days anything less than detailed physics based design rules just doesn't cut it.  Lists of off the shelf weapons are so nineteen eighties.

Quote from: Simlasa;786528Liking stuff with a more 'hand-made' feel automatically equates to 'hipster'? Couldn't possibly be just a matter of taste... like all the folks who prefer the big coffee-table hardbacks full of color? What's your pejorative for them?

Reminds me of my boy (7) - he refuses to play Warhammer Fantasy Battles 2e (1984) because of the lack of glossy colour pics, so I've had to order a second hand copy of 2006-era Warhammer, a classic 'big coffee-table hardback full of color'. When you're 7 that apparently matters more than the rules content.

Quote from: Gabriel2;786501But would it matter in less extreme cases?  Is it really that meaningful a difference that the chance is 55% instead of 53%?  I know gamers will argue over every little point, but does that 2% really have a great enough meaning to be worth it?

Most of the time, that's not at issue in my experience, not what the game system is concerned with. (Although cutting down to +3% per level would let you add 15 levels of bonuses between 55% and 100%, versus just +9 on d20.)

Most of the time, it is - as in Chaosium's rules - a matter of incorporating appropriate frequencies of fumbles, critical hits, and such events. Too common, and you get a silly game with very short-lived characters.

If you roll 3d6 for 6 ability scores, then 1 character in 36 is among the world's best in something, and 1 in 216 world class in a particular ability. Realistically, even 1 in 21,600 may be orders of magnitude too common for a figure with the potential to break a world weight-lifting record; but it may suit AD&D (which makes it more common among PCs).

To be a bit late to the party, I think the psychological factors of rules are often overlooked as in RPGs the rules are staring you right in the face constantly when in computer games they operate under the hood.

So for example the difference between hitting someone with an axe and casting a spell against someone and hoping they fail your save is mostly cosmetic, you can shift up the numbers and use the same mechanic for both. However, I think it's of real value that very different kinds of action psychologically FEEL different which not having unified mechanics can help with.

Quote from: estar;786532Bell Curve.

That gives you those tiny outliers (very roughly 1/20, 1/50 and 1/200). But in the 9 numbers approximating the 10% to 90% spread, the biggest difference in roll-higher/roll-lower probability makes a difference about 1 time in 25.

If you're using the full spread and the actual numbers to quantify something - number of chocolate chips in a cookie, number of "damage points" delivered, etc. - then it makes some sense.

But 9.26% vs 10%, 62.5% vs. 60%, and 50% vs. exactly the same? If someone thinks that's worth tossing two more dice, then he's got no business complaining about one less to get the versatility of d%

Hell, 1/25 is all the re-rolls needed for d% to stand in for d6, d8 and d12. Not that I feel any compulsion to avoid the obviously simpler approach of tossing the appropriate dice (since I happen to have them).

Quote from: Daztur;786565So for example the difference between hitting someone with an axe and casting a spell against someone and hoping they fail your save is mostly cosmetic, you can shift up the numbers and use the same mechanic for both. However, I think it's of real value that very different kinds of action psychologically FEEL different which not having unified mechanics can help with.

I agree - eg I find the 4e D&D unified attack roll for spells & weapons doesn't feel right; the pre-4e spell saving throw vs weapon attack roll just feels better (it also resolves faster when PC casts spell on multiple targets - I can roll saves for 20 orcs far faster than a player can roll 20 attacks & communicate results to me).

Quote from: David Johansen;786542Hipsters?  No, but I've always leaned towards games like High Fantasy, Wizard's Realm, the original Mechanoid Invasion books, Judges Guild products, Thieves Guild.  I think a big part of it is that I never had much money as a kid so I liked cheaper products and it stuck.

What I like about minutia, and yes I love Chartmaster and GURPS, is it gets rid of uncertainties.  I will say that I think GURPS needs a much trimmed entry level core book.  In particular the martial arts techniques and skills need to be removed from the core.

There's always the first edition ...

QuoteReally, D&D 5e could have been much worse.  Heck 4e could have been much worse.  There are really bad games out there.  FATAL might win on offensiveness but I doubt anything is as badly messed up as KABAL with its square root of stat divided by square root of stat times one hundred to figure base chance to hit.

Why is it that whenever some Big New Thing shows up in gaming, people suddenly start talking about dated and aged rules?

Quote from: jeff37923;786635Why is it that whenever some Big New Thing shows up in gaming, people suddenly start talking about dated and aged rules?

This thread actually came out of another one looking for alternatives to World of Darkness.

Quote from: jeff37923;786635Why is it that whenever some Big New Thing shows up in gaming, people suddenly start talking about dated and aged rules?

Why is it when people start discussing stuff, other people feel compelled to find any and all motives other than 'this person thinks what they are saying is true'?

Quote from: Certified;786639This thread actually came out of another one looking for alternatives to World of Darkness.

Your answer makes more sense than Will's does.

Quote from: Phillip;786570There's always the first edition ...

My belief is that I could sell about ten times as many GURPS first edition core books as I do fourth edition.  It just intimidates people too much.  And I have a standing 40% off the GURPS Basic Set book one at my store.  I've sold about five in two and a half years.  Though my main product is miniatures and rpgs are very much an under performing side line.

Quote from: RunningLaser;786461The Palladium Role-Playing Game (revised) is not dated and aged- it's a timeless classic!:)

Actually, the Palladium system is quite nice and serviceable, once you pass the character creation ordeal for the first time.

But, yeeeck, the lay-out of those books ! Mr. Siembieda, it was cool in the 80' but no longer in the 90' !

Quote from: yabaziou;786651Actually, the Palladium system is quite nice and serviceable, once you pass the character creation ordeal for the first time.

But, yeeeck, the lay-out of those books ! Mr. Siembieda, it was cool in the 80' but no longer in the 90' !

That's the thing about Palladium - it's not dated layout, it's just BAD layout.  It sucked then and it still sucks now.

Quote from: RunningLaser;786461The Palladium Role-Playing Game (revised) is not dated and aged- it's a timeless classic!:)

Being the pre-Rifts version, I mostly agree. The only thing that seems dated about it to me is the layout - it looks like it was printed on a Gutenberg press.