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Quote5 Players against 2 bountyhunters made for a lethal combat with 3 players into critical injuries before they managed to take out the bountyhunters. On their corpses they found bounty papers declaring all of them deserters from their respective Imperial Duties. A price of 500 Thrones will be awarded to the person who brings them in. They immediately realise this is the Inquisition trying to get to them.
 
The session ended with one of the Adeptus Arbites requisitioning a civilian vehicle (you know the style: "Adeptus Arbites, sir, we need your vehicle") so they can get to Hive Tarsus where they'll try to find passage on a ship to Malfi.
 
All in all it was a very succesfull first session.  Our second session will be this thursday.    

--

Second session was yesterday.
 
It started with the players in the bar, their plan to flee the hive temporarily thwarted by three unconcious people out of five and the sirens of local law-enforcement in the distance. The psyker who already is relatively badly corrupted moves over to the dead bounty hunters and starts to cut of one of their ears as a trophy.
 
He also picks up a dataslate from one the corpses and then they start dragging their buddies out. One of them recovers a little from his injuries and manages to walk out on his own. They start to move to one of the Acolytes safe-houses not far from there, but due to the fact that they're carrying two badly injured people, they decide to hide in an abandoned hab-block. Unfortunately, they are spotted entering it and are subsequently betrayed by some poor hive wretch to the Arbites following them.
 
After patching their two unconcious friends up a little (which involved spending a great deal of faith points to avoid killing them) they move again, both injured acolytes remained unconsious during their flight and eventually they manage to reach the safe house. It proves not to be that safe a servo-sniffer locates them and they decide to move again. They commandeer a garbage truck, empty it in the middle of the street and then just drive off. At several checkpoints the arbitrator flashes his badge to either pass or to commandeer a fresh vehicle leaving one hell of trail to follow.

Dammit, what good is a 40k game where after one gunfight half the players get to spend the next session with their characters unconcious?

You hear that sound? Thats the sound of videogame manufacturers quaking in their fucking boots.

Now wheres Kane & Lynch - I need to shoot something!

Here we go again... :rolleyes:

Well damit the idea of a 40K game with less violence than the average saturday morning cartoon is just SILLY.

Why is unconsciousness so common?

In WFRP one of the brilliant things they've done is that its relatively hard to end up unconscious.  Instead, you're either ok, conscious with penalties, conscious but missing body parts, or dead.

Unconsciousness sucks for a game like Warhammer.  Yet another sign that this game will suck ass, and that the designers are a gang of idiots that had free reign to directly rip off one of the best RPGs out there (WFRP) and have chosen to ignore all the things that make it great.

RPGPundit

Pish. It sucks because its written by mongooses who spent so long jacking off to call of cthulhu and wishing they wrote for Pagan Publishing that they forgot to do their fucking jobs and sell warhammer.

Also,

QuoteThe comment by Skinner's pigeon is essentially correct; the game relies heavily on modifiers to determine success, (both through inherent difficulty of task, circumstances, specific talents related to the characteristic and action, skill bonus, equipment, the affects of fear, corruption, psychic powers, pacts with the Chaos Gods etc), and modifiers to the roll will almost always come into play…. The baseline is as listed for stressful and challenging tasks, and as matters prove in play a char of say 10 higher than somebody else’s makes a deal more difference that you might think…

So, to clarify my point, your characteristic score does not represent your ability to conduct a task on a level playing field (which I would describe as a traditional % roll), but on a fairly steep slope. Additionally the tens digit of almost all characteristics are used to provide characteristic bonus numbers which plug into a variety of other game systems (psychic powers, resistance to insanity, initiative, good ol’ damage bonus) which are not % based. Oh and there’s also a important degrees of success/failure system etc

Also, as I alluded to in my previous post there are mechanisms in place to ‘house’ extraordinary ability ranges within the same d100 roll . So for example a character with a Willpower 30, compared to a Willpower30 with the Trait Unnatural Willpower (x3), the latter has treble the characteristic bonus, counts their degrees of success as three times the amount in opposed tests, shunts the difficulty of tests several degrees into the ‘easier’ making what would be a challenging test for the former into an ‘auto success no need to roll’ type-thing for the latter… and that’s just one example of the way things go off the top of my head…

would it have killed them to hire someone who passed GCSE maths to write the goddam rules? Especially if they were going be be using percentages.

Fucking art students. Never understand that wishful thinking doesn't overcome probability, or that waving your hands means you are making any fucking sense.

GAH! It PAINS me to see a 40k game full of boring, incapable motivation free characters bimbling about! What a waste!

They coulda done Riddick! They coulda done Rifts! They coulda done Ninja Gaiden!





See, this is why I'm enthuses for 4e - from what I can tell, the people writing it at least seem to be comfortable with numbers, and are designing around how it plays at the table instead of vague wishful thinking, as we can see here. It just isn't good enough any more.

Uh, so what did the players of the unconscious characters do for most of the two sessions?

Quote from: KieroUh, so what did the players of the unconscious characters do for most of the two sessions?

Wrote "I will not engage in meaningful combat" 100 times each?

I started work on a Rifts/40k/Mutant Chronicles setting for SpaceMaster a while back, but I haven't progressed on it very far.

The Dark Overlord of the Galaxy is David Bowie...

Quote from: Zachary The FirstWrote "I will not engage in meaningful combat" 100 times each?

Yes, and to emphasise what an EPIC FAIL this is, THIS IS A GODDAM 40K GAME! STOOPID MOTHER FUCKERS!

THE ENTIRE REST OF THE DAMN HOBBY IS SWIMMING IN VIOLENCE AND SOME DUMB SHIT DECIDES THIS IS THE TIME TO CHANGE! KIDS TV! VIDEO GAMES! EVENING NEWS! ITS BLOODY EVERYWHERE!

BAKA! WHAT THE FUCK DO THEY THINK IT IS THEY SELL!

if you can't wake up and say 'Hi, I work for games workshop. I pedel violence to kids' MAYBE THIS IS NOT THE JOB FOR YOU! GO DIG WELLS IN AFRICA OR SOMETHING DIPSHIT!

I mean honestly.

(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s122/memafrosia/1175252826268.jpg)

Ahhh more useless opinions and assumptions based off of some persons report of a game they are likely running off the sample product and not the finished game.

Quote from: kryystAhhh more useless opinions and assumptions based off of some persons report of a game they are likely running off the sample product and not the finished game.

People have the limited edition, and have been playing with it. I suspect the aforementioned actual play is from some of those who got it in the 4 minutes it was available before it sold out. Or maybe the sad bastards who paid ten times the price on ebay for it.

The entire premise is wank. It's little better than WFRP...in Space, complete with chumps for starting characters and overly lethal combat. Whomever it was who was saying the game was "inspired by Eisenhorn" clearly hasn't read it.

Quote from: KieroThe entire premise is wank. It's little better than WFRP...in Space, complete with chumps for starting characters and overly lethal combat. Whomever it was who was saying the game was "inspired by Eisenhorn" clearly hasn't read it.

Ummm WFRP in space, with lethal combat - that's the point of 40k.  Kill them, kill them quick, kill them as rat bastardly as you can, kill them before they even see it coming, then you don't have to question them, they are guilty because you said so and you've saved the public on the cost of a trial.   This isn't your tree hugging, green alien fucking scif-fi game.

Quote from: kryystUmmm WFRP in space, with lethal combat - that's the point of 40k.  Kill them, kill them quick, kill them as rat bastardly as you can, kill them before they even see it coming, then you don't have to question them, they are guilty because you said so and you've saved the public on the cost of a trial.   This isn't your tree hugging, green alien fucking scif-fi game.

Clearly you've not read Eisenhorn either.

Quote from: KieroWhomever it was who was saying the game was "inspired by Eisenhorn" clearly hasn't read it.

But that was you wasn't it? I thought that you had read it. :p

Heh, still gots my =][=nquisitor so's I don't need no stinkin' three books with the good stuff in the last one rpg.  Want a vortex grenade?  Hell YES you can have a vortex grenade.  Want big spikey servo claws?  HELL YES YOU CAN HAVE BIG SPIKEY SERVO CLAWS!

The folly of trying to impose limitations on 40k characters is as great as the folly of believing one's life and individuality to be significant in the forty first millenium.

Seriously though, what were you expecting?

Quote from: David JohansenSeriously though, what were you expecting?

I dunno - a bit more pandering? More playing to the whims of the hordes of prepubescent GW fans who will buy anything with Marine printed on it?

More Blade or Hellboy or Sin City? More carnage? More fighting? A spot of joy taken in killing shit?

I dunno - either BI or the rest of games workshop have a bad grasp on what their audience likes, and the rest of GW is the biggest company in hobby gaming.

That and, yknow, what with 4e coming out where effort has been put in to making sure the system works well as a game, and loads of video games putting a lot of effort in to making team based gun combat work, this is just disappointing.

The rebounding health bar of all modern shooters, the cover systems seen in all modern shooters and the sorta team based resurection whereby if one of your teammates goes down you have to rush over and inject them with adrenaline or whatnot are all things that could be stolen just as easily as the MMORPG stuff stolen by 4e.

(For instance in this sorta 40k roleplaying thingy, if someone gets shot you have to use a medpack on them quickly or their health is reduced for the rest of the day -

http://warseer.com/firebase/download/FB03/Firebase_Issue_03.pdf

That one rule makes the thing so much more USEABLE.)

Quote from: One Horse TownBut that was you wasn't it? I thought that you had read it. :p

Nope, that was off a BI page or one of the developers. It's still tossed around a lot by fans of the game.

Quote from: Erik BoielleI dunno - either BI or the rest of games workshop have a bad grasp on what their audience likes, and the rest of GW is the biggest company in hobby gaming.

Yes, that would be BI; more specifically the Green Ronin branch of BI, who have some purely mercenary and other pretty fucked up motives for releasing the games the way they did.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditmercenary

Well, I don't think its mercenary enough - if theres one time there is a golden oppertunity to make the most shamlessly gratuitously violent game aimed at the most steryotypically kill happy gamer, it has to be 40k.

--

Take for instance, Condemned 2: Bloodshot -

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/29646.html

Theres a bit in an interview where a designer says 'in the previous game, our hero beat two hundred people to death with an iron bar, and in this game we examine what that does to you'.

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, that would be BI; more specifically the Green Ronin branch of BI, who have some purely mercenary and other pretty fucked up motives for releasing the games the way they did.

RPGPundit

Pray tell. You seem to know all about it.

Quote from: KieroClearly you've not read Eisenhorn either.

Yeah, an 800 year old Inquisitor that made a pact with a daemon...etc..etc... yeah not a jumping point for a starting campaign.  Hence more bullshit whining from people predicting the failure of a game that's not really out yet, except in extremely limited conditions and basing their judgment on what 'Bob' did.

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, that would be BI; more specifically the Green Ronin branch of BI, who have some purely mercenary and other pretty fucked up motives for releasing the games the way they did.

RPGPundit

I think you've hit the nail on the head in regards to their motives; this'll pander to the "WFRPG as call of Cthulhu with goofy german puns" crowd, while getting the ultraviolence crowd frothing for the next book...and probably get twice the money out of the later group if the second game requires the Dark Heresy core.

All my players (and I) want from a Space Marine 40K game is the experience of playing Todd from Soldier.....you know, blowing shit up and not having time to bleed.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: LeSquideI think you've hit the nail on the head in regards to their motives; this'll pander to the "WFRPG as call of Cthulhu with goofy german puns" crowd, while getting the ultraviolence crowd frothing for the next book...and probably get twice the money out of the later group if the second game requires the Dark Heresy core.

That's pretty well what they're running on in theory.  

In practice, its a horrific mistake; they should have released a single gamebook, with the opportunity to provide both the ultraviolence and the cool RP, in other words an actually full blown roleplaying game, rather than the three thirds of a roleplaying game that they're planning to release now.

But even barring that, assuming that there was no way they'd release it as a single book because they're just too fucking greedy/pigheaded/ideologically motivated, at the very least they should have been sufficiently intelligent to release the Ultraviolence game FIRST.  But no, you see, that wouldn't "teach" us how the "right" way to play WFRP is.

What really astounds me is how they could have gotten things so RIGHT with WFRP, and so WRONG with WFRP40k.  There's some little detail missing there: was there a different person in charge of the overall project, or the company, or something like that, between the WFRP release and now?

RPGPundit

Quote from: David RAll my players (and I) want from a Space Marine 40K game is the experience of playing Todd from Soldier.....you know, blowing shit up and not having time to bleed.

Hmmm.  That would give me the opportunity to use all of those military science fiction soundtracks that I have (e.g., Soldier, Wing Commander, Starship Troopers, parts of Dune, Halo, "The Space Fleet" from Silent Running, etc.).

Quote from: RPGPunditWhat really astounds me is how they could have gotten things so RIGHT with WFRP, and so WRONG with WFRP40k.  There's some little detail missing there: was there a different person in charge of the overall project, or the company, or something like that, between the WFRP release and now?

Surely you already know the answer to this question, don't you?  I mean, if you're going to presume to know people's motivations and innermost thoughts then we can only assume that you're fully briefed on relatively transparent details like these...

KoOS

Quote from: kryystYeah, an 800 year old Inquisitor that made a pact with a daemon...etc..etc... yeah not a jumping point for a starting campaign.  Hence more bullshit whining from people predicting the failure of a game that's not really out yet, except in extremely limited conditions and basing their judgment on what 'Bob' did.

Like I said, you have no idea what you're talking about.

See, theres a bit a the beginning of Xenos where Fischig kills five hire muscle and disables one of Eyeclone's leutentants all on his own, while wearing flack armour and armed with a combat shotgun.

I'm not sure even a maxed out Dark Heresy PC could recreate this feat, which isn't all that impressive compared to other things in the books.

Yet it's entirely possible in =][=nquisitor...

Quote from: Erik BoielleSee, theres a bit a the beginning of Xenos where Fischig kills five hire muscle and disables one of Eyeclone's leutentants all on his own, while wearing flack armour and armed with a combat shotgun.

I'm not sure even a maxed out Dark Heresy PC could recreate this feat, which isn't all that impressive compared to other things in the books.

And let's remember, as far as the story is concerned, he's a "starting character", since he joins Eisenhorn's retinue not long after that.

QuoteBefore I start with what happened in our third session I have to mention that before I started my campaign I made my players design 2 alternate identities. If they were well made and very complete, they'd hold up to most scrutiny, if they were rapidly made and somewhat vague, then their identity would be swiftly revealed.
 
The session started with the techpriest getting a utility mechadendrite and a medicae mechadendrite, both of which he padi for in full (and then some) at a local Mechanicus Guild Hall. One of the Arbites got rid of his uniform and then went to look for passage, while using his covert identity of Lorgram, a Manufactorium Supervisor in a small arms factory on Malfi.
He soon found passage on a ship called the White Comet under the command of shipmistress Arathi. She was a Free Trader and could travel anywhere in the Calixis sector. The arbites managed to book passage for everyone based on their fake identities. The other arbites played the role of an ammunition merchant while the scum in the party tried to pull of the role of an explosives merchant. The psyker just played hired guard while the techpriest played the role of patern inspector.
While it wasn't cheap, they managed to book passage altough it was quickly determined that Mistress Arathi was no easy lady.
They still had 3 days before departure so everyone went out to search for supplies (some of them didn't find the stuff they desired like lasersights). The scum went out looking for frag grenades. The only one who would sell them to an unlicensed merchant was someone who only dealed in large lots. First they were talking about 1.000 grenades for 11.000 while the scum only really wanted about 5 but eventually they settled on 100 for 1.500 thrones. (Everybody had such a laugh about that trade, except the scum).
One of the Arbites used his Inquiry to go about the starport and ask around about Mistress Arathi and the White Comet and found out her ship was rumoured to be partly built by Tau, he also found out that she was involved in smuggling, especially technology from restricted parts of space. Nobody really cared that much as long as they would get to Malfi.
 
After three days, they finally left for Malfi. The acolytes were locked in a corridor on board the ship and were not allowed to leave that corridor, there were comfortable rooms and even a commonroom where they could gather and talk. Immediately after settling in, the Scum in the party got an invitation from Shipmistress Arathi to come to her quarters later that evening for dinner.
Punctually the scum arived at the shipmistresses quarters, they had dinner and over dinner she gently questioned him, when he refused to answer for the first time, Arathi reminded him that she could shove the acolytes out of an airlock without anyone ever knowing. The conversation went a lot smoother after that. Mainly because the scum said everything Arathi wanted to hear. Out of the conversation, Arathi drew the conclusion that the acolytes were in fact working for a rich cartel and that they were invastigating routes to smuggle weapons and especially frag grenades along. Arathi wanted in. She sent the scum back to his quarters and next night, she sent for one of the arbitrators.
He also arrived punctually and instead of being the commanding bitch of the previous night she just tried to get the guy drunk. She was seductive, alluring, everything a lonely arbitratir may have wanted, bu he saw through her ploy. He told her she misunderstood the scum and that they were merchants who were comming to Malfi to inspect the factory where he worked so they could determine if they wanted to place some large orders. He then continued saying that if the scum was going to sell it to illegal people, then maybe he and Arathi could make a deal. He literally said: " Let's cut out the middle man". After a suggestion of Arathi to kill the scum the arbitrator managed to wriggle himself out from under that.
Next evening the other arbitrator was ordered to come to her quarters? Instead of dinner there was nothing except an interogation room waiting for him. There were threats, there were promises of nasty stuff and eventually the arbitrator agreed that they would deliver some crates when they arrived on Malfi.
 
After several days they arrived at Malfi, they were sent on their way with a cargo-8 with the 12 chests in the back. While in transit to the surface they decided to open one of the chests, apparently there were some advanced cogitators in there but with a certain wrongness about them. The tech-priest hacked into the shuttles communications array and sent out a coded message to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Malfi about the cargo. The techpriests intercepted them at landing and the cogitators (which were "Property of the Adeptus Mechanicus after all" according to the techpriest) were confiscated.
 
Now the Acolytes have arrived on Malfi, they are wanted by the Inquisition, they have just made an enemy of a certain free trader captain and then there is also the Likin family (a nobel family on Malfi who are suspected to have worked with heretic cults in the past) who aren't getting the cogitatros they ordered.
 
It certainly looks as though Malfi will become an interesting place.

Three session, one fight.

Jus sayin.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying: A game done right.

Warhammer 40K: Dark Heresy: Missed the mark, it seems.

Warhammer FRP was always about playing the lice-infested rat catchers and disease-ridden mercenary or the drunken priest of Sigmar. So BI pegged it right by a "more of the same" approach, just with better rules and certain things cleaned up (like the Careers).

But 40K? People want to play through the movie Starship Troopers where the main characters blow away legions of Tyranids, not the movie Alien where everyone dies by one Genestealer. And the three book thing is fucking greed. There's no other reason to do it the way they're doing it.

I want Gaunt's Ghosts.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: RPGPunditYes, that would be BI; more specifically the Green Ronin branch of BI, who have some purely mercenary and other pretty fucked up motives for releasing the games the way they did.

Oh yeah, and since it's been confirmed that the "Green Ronin branch of BI" had nothing to do with the decisions regarding the design of DH or the termination of BI, are you going to apologize to them for spewing this defamatory stream of bullshit in a public forum?

KoOS

Quote from: GrimJestaWarhammer FRP was always about playing the lice-infested rat catchers and disease-ridden mercenary or the drunken priest of Sigmar. So BI pegged it right by a "more of the same" approach, just with better rules and certain things cleaned up (like the Careers).

But 40K? People want to play through the movie Starship Troopers where the main characters blow away legions of Tyranids, not the movie Alien where everyone dies by one Genestealer. And the three book thing is fucking greed. There's no other reason to do it the way they're doing it.

They could have done a 40K game like Warhammer FRP based on Necromunda and the original Rogue Trader with an "Immortals" version of the game to give you the Starship Troopers version.  In fact, Necromunda could be a pretty nifty role-playing setting.  Of course GW stopped making Necromunda. :(

I got the game and I've just finished reading it. I tink it's a pretty good game. It takes a lot of D&D based inspirations.

For example, there are only 8 jobs in the game...which are essentially classes. Your "Race" (called "Originating Planet") also restricts your class choice.

I think that the ridiculous vastness that is the WH40k universe needed to be roped in. I think BI have created a good game set within that universe. Much better than the utter crap game that was =][=. It's just begging to be played.

It's a hell of a lot of fun - I just played in a fun session. We infiltrated a TechPriest-controlled space station where they provided facial reconstruction for the idle rich, but which (it turned out) had been horribly subverted by cultists of Slaanesh, had a bunch of reasonably smoothly-moving firefights (although the GM did decide not to let NPCs use Dodge as a reaction, sensibly in my view) which pretty much hit the sweet spot between "insanely dangerous" and "tactically feasible", and crashed the space station into the planet, escaping at the last minute in an escape pod which shot straight through the surface of the planet into the dark underbelly of a mysterious hive.

And Erik thinks W40KRP needs to be more kick-ass.

Quote from: John MorrowThey could have done a 40K game like Warhammer FRP based on Necromunda and the original Rogue Trader with an "Immortals" version of the game to give you the Starship Troopers version.  In fact, Necromunda could be a pretty nifty role-playing setting.  Of course GW stopped making Necromunda. :(

Funny you should mention Necromunda. I bought the rulebook today on a whim (a somewhat expensive whim), but with the game going OOP I wanted ti get it now while it wasn't marked up 300% on eBay. After flipping through it and reading most of the sections I realized that Dark Heresy could be used to run a bitchin' Necromunda-style game. The fact that it only requires a small amount of XP to gain in rank (small amount compared to the total XP it'd take to finish a career rank or whatever they're called) means that even a group of three Underhive scum might all have enough different skills despite being the same career that it'd still be interesting. Then factor in one rogue psyker and an assassin, perhaps an Imperial Guardsman that abandoned his post and is now basically an outlaw and you could have a lot of fun running a game. I imagine it'd be like The Warriors meets Alien meets Bladerunner. In other words: awesome.

So wading through hordes of Tyranids may be out of the question, but I realized that the game doesn't suck. It's just not what I expected. But after getting over the fact that it was low-key, low-powered (to an extent) I decided that the game was worth it.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: WarthurAnd Erik thinks W40KRP needs to be more kick-ass.

I'm sorry. I was just pllaying the Devil May Cry 4 demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjdCthbihI8

What was that you were saying?

Quote from: King of Old SchoolOh yeah, and since it's been confirmed that the "Green Ronin branch of BI" had nothing to do with the decisions regarding the design of DH or the termination of BI, are you going to apologize to them for spewing this defamatory stream of bullshit in a public forum?

KoOS

As to the second claim, I NEVER, anywhere, claimed that GR had anything to do with BI's demise.

As to the first; please feel free to show me some evidence, as in exactly where it is "confirmed" that GR's people had nothing to do with the decision to divide 40k into three products?

RPGPundit

Quote from: GrimJestaAfter flipping through it and reading most of the sections I realized that Dark Heresy could be used to run a bitchin' Necromunda-style game.

Hmmm.  Maybe I need to see if I can find a copy of Dark Heresy after all...

Quote from: KrakaJakI got the game and I've just finished reading it. I tink it's a pretty good game. It takes a lot of D&D based inspirations.

For example, there are only 8 jobs in the game...which are essentially classes. Your "Race" (called "Originating Planet") also restricts your class choice.

I think that the ridiculous vastness that is the WH40k universe needed to be roped in. I think BI have created a good game set within that universe. Much better than the utter crap game that was =][=. It's just begging to be played.

So out of a universe that had millions of possibilities, we're just going to focus on 8? Fantastic. :rolleyes:
Yes, that's a great plan if you want to take what had the potential to be THE defining Sci-fi RPG and make damn sure that you made too much of a micro-game for it ever to appeal to enough people.

Why the fuck would you ever want to "rope in" anything, unless you're too much of an incompetent to be able to make room for it all?

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditSo out of a universe that had millions of possibilities, we're just going to focus on 8? Fantastic. :rolleyes:

8 is the "core" class, like how D&D has Fighter, Cleric, Mage and Thief as the core and then sub classes beneath that. There's branching sub-classes for each of these core 8, so IMHO I see it more as over a dozen classes. The Marshall and the Magistrate are pretty different careers, yet they both have the Arbitrator as the core career. Another example is the Confessor and the Exorcist: both are different careers, yet they both come from the Cleric core.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: RPGPunditSo out of a universe that had millions of possibilities, we're just going to focus on 8? Fantastic. :rolleyes:
Yes, that's a great plan if you want to take what had the potential to be THE defining Sci-fi RPG and make damn sure that you made too much of a micro-game for it ever to appeal to enough people.

Why the fuck would you ever want to "rope in" anything, unless you're too much of an incompetent to be able to make room for it all?

RPGPundit

If you want to bring WHFRP into perspective: WHFRP is admitted by you, RPGPundit, to be a great game. In the VAST universe of WHFRP they chose 4 races in the corebook. Of those three races one of them was the tabletop unrepresented halfling (oh sorry, they were available as cooks in Mordheim). How come I could NOT play a Brettonian Knight in the corebook? Or an Orc or Skaven, which are both some of the most popular armies on the tabletop.

Focus does not limit anything. It provides a cohesive, comprehendable experience. Every good game I've seen (D&D, WHFRP, V:tR, TMNT&OS) has some sort of gameplay and group focus, especially to start a line of products. Nobody called Werewolf: the Apocalypse a micro-game, and it did not have anywhere near the scope of setting or depth of character options that is provided by Dark Heresy.

The thing is that an rpg style structure is pretty close to impossible to impose on 40k.  Really a GURPS style point buy would be the way to go.  Then you could make anything.  Mind you, GURPS does 40k fairly well and even has bolt eerrr cough storm guns in UltraTech.

I keep saying it but =][=nquisitor has a better combat system that Dark Heresy (IMO for some definitions of better) covers more hardware though fewer special abilities and does a decent job of the whole ultra violence aspect to the point where they assume you'll just narrate the dull stuff away in a hurry and get down to shooting stuff.

Yes, it has no point system or structured limitations beyond gear availablity though I think sticking to the published archetypes and the random generator from White Dwarf is advisable until you've got a feel for it.

But marines are hardcore and virtually indestructable.  There's rules for aliens and vehicles as well.

Quote from: GrimJesta8 is the "core" class, like how D&D has Fighter, Cleric, Mage and Thief as the core and then sub classes beneath that. There's branching sub-classes for each of these core 8, so IMHO I see it more as over a dozen classes. The Marshall and the Magistrate are pretty different careers, yet they both have the Arbitrator as the core career. Another example is the Confessor and the Exorcist: both are different careers, yet they both come from the Cleric core.

It also should be noted that each career has vastly more things you can spend your XP on than, say, the starting careers in WFRP, and the list only gets longer as you go up in rank. It's possible to have two guardsmen with vastly, vastly different areas of expertise.

Quote from: KrakaJakIf you want to bring WHFRP into perspective: WHFRP is admitted by you, RPGPundit, to be a great game. In the VAST universe of WHFRP they chose 4 races in the corebook. Of those three races one of them was the tabletop unrepresented halfling (oh sorry, they were available as cooks in Mordheim). How come I could NOT play a Brettonian Knight in the corebook? Or an Orc or Skaven, which are both some of the most popular armies on the tabletop.

Focus does not limit anything. It provides a cohesive, comprehendable experience. Every good game I've seen (D&D, WHFRP, V:tR, TMNT&OS) has some sort of gameplay and group focus, especially to start a line of products. Nobody called Werewolf: the Apocalypse a micro-game, and it did not have anywhere near the scope of setting or depth of character options that is provided by Dark Heresy.

Well, we know that at the very least they could have made an WH game with Inquisitors, Rogue Traders and Space Marines.

Look, its very simple: Warhammer Fantasy is a full blown game, that covers all kinds of areas.  

This game Dark Heresy? Its like if you took WFRP and had said "yeah, the ONLY thing you can do is play a group of servants for a Witch-hunter".

That's it.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, we know that at the very least they could have made an WH game with Inquisitors, Rogue Traders and Space Marines.

Look, its very simple: Warhammer Fantasy is a full blown game, that covers all kinds of areas.  

This game Dark Heresy? Its like if you took WFRP and had said "yeah, the ONLY thing you can do is play a group of servants for a Witch-hunter".

That's it.

Except that doesn't really come across in the character gen and the system, just in the GM advice section. I could quite happily take Dark Heresy and use it to run a game where the PCs are the away team for a Rogue Trader, or are revolutionaries trying to bring down the Imperium, or just about anything you like. (Space Marines would be difficult, because they're genetically engineered away from the baseline stats, but doable with some rules tweaks; just about all of the other ideas I cite there can be done without any tweaks at all.)

The witch-hunter thing provides focus for people who, faced with the massive expanse of the W40K universe, think "what the fuck do I do with this?" If you already have an idea of what you want to do with it, you don't need to use the inquisition content.

How hard would it be to do marines?

+20 Strength
+20 Toughness
+20 Willpower
+2 Wounds

Powered Armour and Bolt Gun

And a few Talents

Really, the skill all comes from having been a mighty warrior before the mods.

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, we know that at the very least they could have made an WH game with Inquisitors, Rogue Traders and Space Marines.

Look, its very simple: Warhammer Fantasy is a full blown game, that covers all kinds of areas.  

This game Dark Heresy? Its like if you took WFRP and had said "yeah, the ONLY thing you can do is play a group of servants for a Witch-hunter".

That's it.

RPGPundit

Except that the scope of a Sigmarite Witch-Hunters duties is miniscule when compared to the Inquisition. Same idea, but on a totally different scale. The book readily admits that the Inquisitor is strictly a McGuffin, you are not part of the Inquisitors retinue, he's there strictly to send the players on all kinds of missions, on all kinds of planets, for all kinds of reasons. Not a Deus-ex, but strictly grease for the wheels of a stuck or beginning campaign.

Also, as Warthur wrote, there is no character mechanic that ties the characters you create to the Inquisition. you can certainly do what you want with them.

And since Games-Workshop takes their setting very seriously, having a Rogue Trader, Inquisitor and Space Marine all hanging out together is not something that makes ANY sense at all as a group of PC's, especially for a long term campaign. Even having a group of all Inquisitors would not work out very well, if played to setting standards.

Quote from: RPGPunditAs to the second claim, I NEVER, anywhere, claimed that GR had anything to do with BI's demise.

As to the first; please feel free to show me some evidence, as in exactly where it is "confirmed" that GR's people had nothing to do with the decision to divide 40k into three products?

RPGPundit

Ahhh, so I have to prove that people who get no development credit on the actual product, whose largest credited contribution was "additional writing by" and who had previously announced the end of their professional relations with the publisher of the material, weren't actually the uncredited Seeekrit Masters pulling the strings behind the scenes of a company much, much bigger than themselves...

Here's an idea: how about instead, you provide even an iota of proof for your positive assertion that they were behind the decision, instead of expecting me to prove a negative.  That's how these things work, after all.

KoOS

Quote from: David JohansenHow hard would it be to do marines?

+20 Strength
+20 Toughness
+20 Willpower
+2 Wounds

Powered Armour and Bolt Gun

And a few Talents

Really, the skill all comes from having been a mighty warrior before the mods.

Trry at least plus +40 on all stats (maybe +20 on WS & BS, if you want to be nice).

Space Marines are born Space-Marines(cloned actually). They don't come out of the pod "before the Mods", they don't get their Power-Armor until they survive indoctrination (combat training and brain washing) and they don't get off the ship until they get their Power-Armor. It's not like some sort of promotion. Space-Marines were born a modified mighty-warrior and they will die one.

Really, these guys are 7 ft. tall, 500lb (before armor), cloned, Emperor serving killing machines. Space-Marine Power Armor is the socond best armor in the ENTIRE known galaxy, the best being Space-Marine Terminator Armor. Standard equip them with Bolters (Which are 78mm, fully-automatic weapons with exploding bullets) and there's a bit of a power disparity between them and Joe Void-born.

Quote from: KrakaJakSpace Marines are born Space-Marines(cloned actually). They don't come out of the pod "before the Mods", they don't get their Power-Armor until they survive indoctrination (combat training and brain washing) and they don't get off the ship until they get their Power-Armor. It's not like some sort of promotion. Space-Marines were born a modified mighty-warrior and they will die one.

I am not an expert in the 40K universe, but I have been doing some looking around lately as a result of Dark Heresy, and I think that you may be wrong on this point.  According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Marines_(Warhammer_40,000)#Recruitment) Space Marines recruit from normal human stock who are implanted by a "Gene Seed" which will transform them into the murderous superwarriors that we all know and love...They also undergo a period of training and apprenticeship as Space Marine Scouts in combat before they get their power armor.

Nitpicky I know.  I think that you are probably right about the +40 on stats for these killing machines.  Maybe +30 for scouts or something?


TGA


Edit:  Fixed linky

Quote from: The Good AssyrianI am not an expert in the 40K universe, but I have been doing some looking around lately as a result of Dark Heresy, and I think that you may be wrong on this point.  According to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Marines_(Warhammer_40,000)#Recruitment) Space Marines recruit from normal human stock who are implanted by a "Gene Seed" which will transform them into the murderous superwarriors that we all know and love...They also undergo a period of training and apprenticeship as Space Marine Scouts in combat before they get their power armor.

Nitpicky I know.  I think that you are probably right about the +40 on stats for these killing machines.  Maybe +30 for scouts or something?


TGA


Edit:  Fixed linky

BTW your link doesn't work...but I clicked around and got it working.

I stand corrected. It looks like that's something thats changed since I started reading up on Space-Marines (something like 15 years ago). They used to be clones born in the Space-Fortress Monastaries awaiting impplantation of a Gene Seed. Although it now looks like something that would be cool for an Assassin or Guardsman to become after completing his career path (although, as Acolytes they'd probably become an Inquisitor).

Quote from: WarthurExcept that doesn't really come across in the character gen and the system, just in the GM advice section.

Prime example: I'm using the system for a Necromunda RPG. No Inquisitors, no Acolytes (which means they don't get the starting 400XP, but whatever), nothing. Just a gang trying to hack it in the Underhive.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: KrakaJakBTW your link doesn't work...but I clicked around and got it working.

I stand corrected. It looks like that's something thats changed since I started reading up on Space-Marines (something like 15 years ago). They used to be clones born in the Space-Fortress Monastaries awaiting impplantation of a Gene Seed. Although it now looks like something that would be cool for an Assassin or Guardsman to become after completing his career path (although, as Acolytes they'd probably become an Inquisitor).

Yeah, I had to manually fix the link to get it to work.  As I said, it was a nitpicky point and it was Wikipedia after all, so who knows if it is true...:D


TGA

Traditionally, and for some time: Space Marines are recruited from local youths (as young as 12 I think...), through a variety of means, usually brutal and violent, depending upon their chapter's traditions.  Some means include taking the last man standing from a grand melee, to viciously lethal obstacle courses to pulling fallen warriors from battlefields (Space Wolves, that one...)

A scout has all the changes that make a man into a Space Marine, they just don't get the Power Armor.

It was the original legions (pre Horus Heresy) that were cloned from the geneseed of the Primarchs... which according to the current line of novels are essentially manifested warp entities created by the Emperor...

Power Armor, in 40K, gives the wearer (space marine or not) +20 Strength (in Dark Heresy), which can account for the perceived difference between a scout and a full fledged battle brother's stregth. Out of armor they would be peers in that regard.

An old rule of thumb for 40k stats (from the rpg) was each numeric difference represented a doubling of strength, thus a Space Marine (or Scout) was twice as strong, tough and fast (initiative) as a normal man, and there was no measurable difference between a scout and a Space Marine.

Quote from: rpg.netWe had our first session just now, using an official adventure. Which featured two adjacent forced climb check events.

One of which was 'roll against your 30% success chance, if you fail by 30 or more, INSTA-DIE LOL'. The other was just the regular kind of 'roll against your 15% success chance, or fall a few meters and TAKE US MUCH DAMAGE AS FROM BEING SHOT WITH A HIGH-POWERED RIFLE'.

You know, just pure fun. A way to really grab those new people.

But, at least it got my group to agree with my stance to never try to climb or jump anywhere with this system.

Dumbasses. Sad truth is BI brought it on themselves.

We played the same scenario Sun and had a great time. :)

Quote from: KrakaJakTrry at least plus +40 on all stats (maybe +20 on WS & BS, if you want to be nice).

Space Marines are born Space-Marines(cloned actually). They don't come out of the pod "before the Mods", they don't get their Power-Armor until they survive indoctrination (combat training and brain washing) and they don't get off the ship until they get their Power-Armor. It's not like some sort of promotion. Space-Marines were born a modified mighty-warrior and they will die one.

Really, these guys are 7 ft. tall, 500lb (before armor), cloned, Emperor serving killing machines. Space-Marine Power Armor is the socond best armor in the ENTIRE known galaxy, the best being Space-Marine Terminator Armor. Standard equip them with Bolters (Which are 78mm, fully-automatic weapons with exploding bullets) and there's a bit of a power disparity between them and Joe Void-born.

First off I based my numbers on how WHFRP stated giants and dragons.  

Second marines aren't cloned they're humans with modifications implanted after they prove themselves worthy through a series of grueling tests.  And they have been since Rogue Trader.

Third they're eight feet tall, which goes to show how little of the actual 40k material you've ever read.

Lastly it's a +20 that stacks with all the other strength and toughness advances a human can possibly buy.  It's a system specific solution.

As I've said repeatedly, I prefer the =][=nquisitor system which lets them have a base line 250 Strength (+10% for powered armour) and 150 Toughness.  But that's just not how Dark Heresy scales things.

Quote from: David JohansenThird they're eight feet tall, which goes to show how little of the actual 40k material you've ever read.

.

Be nice. Its 8 feet IN armor. Always has been. That leaves a LOT of leeway on the marine OUT of armor. For all we know they could be 4 foot tall and use stilts.  

Okay... we know that's out of the question (stupid Squats...) but...

According to an old and rare White Dwarf supplement (or not) the soles in the boots are only two inches thick tops!

Never the less the marines have never been clones ever in any of the fluff ever barring the novels which I can't claim to have read.  Well there was that one based on Advanced Space Crusade but given the anal penetration metaphor used to describe a marine assault boat docking with a tyranid vessel I think I can be forgiven for not going back.

Though I'll note that the marine scouts in that Rogue Trader era novel were hive world born RECRUITS!

They did grow progenoids in clones that were confined to growth tanks, but that's mainly the adeptus terra for use in creating new marines.

Quote from: SpikeBe nice. Its 8 feet IN armor. Always has been. That leaves a LOT of leeway on the marine OUT of armor. For all we know they could be 4 foot tall and use stilts.  

Okay... we know that's out of the question (stupid Squats...) but...

Hey...how come there's no Squats in this game....(uh oh!)

Quote from: Erik BoielleDumbasses. Sad truth is BI brought it on themselves.

I know right. Selling out the same week it came out. Jerks. They brought that level of success on themselves.

-=Grim=-

Yes. There are many people who would kill for the kind of sucess that means looking for a new job in march.

Quote from: KrakaJakHey...how come there's no Squats in this game....(uh oh!)

In WHFRP they called it the Galloping Trots instead.

:D

Looking at the new Ork codex I'm guessing Squats aren't too far off for the minis game anyhow.  With Jervis being the last man standing I think we can look forward to more fluff and less balanced rules stuff in the future.

I suspect that those who destroyed the Squats have all left the building.

Someone that reads a lot more of the 40k stuff told me that in one of the corebooks there's some fiction about the Squats home-planet being overrun by Tyranids and then being declared Exterminatus.

Might be wrong though. I think the squats at least deserve a mini army list for the folks that actually bought them.

The Squats were overrun by the Tyranids, then written out of canon. However, I have seen some model proofs and drawings that suggest that a race of 'space dwarves' were meant as sort of a client list of the Tau at one time.

Definetly not Squats, however.

You'll have to make do with ratlings, I'm afraid...

QuoteI know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist

Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.

First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.

No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.

Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.

Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...

I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

Best regards,

Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic

Also:-

QuoteThere is a clock in GW headquarters called the Squat Clock. It is set to 12 hours. When it reaches zero, work on the squats will begin. Unfortunately, every time someone in the world mentions the word Squat, it gets reset. So far, the closest it has come to zero is 11:59:57.

Quote from: GrimJestaPrime example: I'm using the system for a Necromunda RPG. No Inquisitors, no Acolytes (which means they don't get the starting 400XP, but whatever), nothing. Just a gang trying to hack it in the Underhive.

Any additional info on this game would be appreciated.  The idea of running a Necromunda game sold me and I managed to find a copy for cover price via mail order.  Now I just need to wait for it to arrive.

Quick note:

Inquisitor, Necromundia, and other such discontinued GW games exist in free downloadable .pdf form through the GW website; look for the "Other Games" menu tab and go from there.

Prior to me doing the impulse buy thing with the copy of Dark Heresy I found while on drill this past weekend, I was quite content with the aforementioned free things and my d6 Space book for a game I had in mind.

Hope this helps the curious.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYes. There are many people who would kill for the kind of sucess that means looking for a new job in march.

Whoa, hey Logical Fallacies R Us. Settle down now.

(a) The game sold out almost immediately. That's success.
(b) GW yanked the license because their company isn't doing well.
(c) 'b' has little to do with 'a'. Therefore, you're retarded making a rather hasty assumption. And one that's wrong.

Dark Heresy is a success. GW just doesn't give a shit about that.

Quote from: John MorrowAny additional info on this game would be appreciated.  The idea of running a Necromunda game sold me and I managed to find a copy for cover price via mail order.  Now I just need to wait for it to arrive.

Well, the Gang Member career has enough advances that three gansters created at the same time need not look alike. Factor in a Psyker and an Assassin [Spyrer in my game] and it's rounded out.

Are you looking for info on how the game can be used for Necromunda, the game in general or what my personal game is shaping up to be like? THe latter doesn't have a death metal soundtrack and invincible, hulking Marines wading through 100,000 Orks unscathed, so Erik would hate it.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: Dan AbnettAs far as I know, all Black Industries stuff has been canned. That’s the way it goes. If it didn’t sell, it wasn’t worth doing. You can’t argue with that. GW is making cuts across the board, and I am especially pained to see the loss of my good friend and BL publisher Marc Gascoigne. I will miss him, enormously.

..

Quote from: GrimJestaWell, the Gang Member career has enough advances that three gansters created at the same time need not look alike. Factor in a Psyker and an Assassin [Spyrer in my game] and it's rounded out.

OK.  If there is already a Gang Member career, that certainly helps.

Quote from: GrimJestaAre you looking for info on how the game can be used for Necromunda, the game in general or what my personal game is shaping up to be like? THe latter doesn't have a death metal soundtrack and invincible, hulking Marines wading through 100,000 Orks unscathed, so Erik would hate it.

Either.  Both.

Necromunda has always fascinated me as a role-playing setting that I've never had a chance to role-play in.  So if you want to talk about your game, I can live vicariously through your experiences. ;)

Maybe I can talk my group into a mini-campaign once I get some free time.

While I've often used a heavy metal soundtrack for Warhammer FRP (particularly Savatage's Hall of the Mountain King), I'm not a huge fan of hard core death metal and I'm not interested in invincible, hulking Marines wading through 100,000 Orks unscathed, so it sounds fine for me.

Necromunda is one of the easier settings / concepts to model in Dark Heresy. Rogue traders would also be pretty easy to do, so long as nobody wanted to be a xeno.

The main gaps in Dark Heresy as it stands are its lack of xenos, space marines and other superhuman characters as either pregenerated NPCs or character options. If you want to play Necromunda, these aren't really elements you'd be using anyhow.

Last night I played a DH game - it was like Love and Rockets' 'The Death of Speedy' meets 'The Shield', with Atari Teenage Riot and Sleep's 'Dopesmoker' as a soundtrack.

It's funny that the people who blast Erik for wanting WFRP to be ultra-RIFTS are the people who dislike the low-rent gritty-as-fuck street level opportunities DH allows. Space Marines would just be wargaming.

hardcore - you know the score

Quote from: Erik Boielle...

Dan Abnett doesn't work for BL or the RPG industry. He's just an author. Which you still haven't addressed how a book that sells out completely in droves in a day or two is a failure. Care to?

-=Grim=-

Quote from: SeanIt's funny that the people who blast Erik for wanting WFRP to be ultra-RIFTS are the people who dislike the low-rent gritty-as-fuck street level opportunities DH allows.

Who?

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaDan Abnett doesn't work for BL or the RPG industry. He's just an author. Which you still haven't addressed how a book that sells out completely in droves in a day or two is a failure. Care to?

-=Grim=-

Dan Abnett wrote a lot of the setting material for Dark Heresy. So, now you're wrong on all accounts :D

Quote from: PseudoephedrineNecromunda is one of the easier settings / concepts to model in Dark Heresy. Rogue traders would also be pretty easy to do, so long as nobody wanted to be a xeno.

The main gaps in Dark Heresy as it stands are its lack of xenos, space marines and other superhuman characters as either pregenerated NPCs or character options. If you want to play Necromunda, these aren't really elements you'd be using anyhow.

And really, how easy would it be to slip Xenos in? Just stat up a WFRP elf and give him a gun, and you've got an Eldar...

Is Necromunda the 40K setting that was detailed in White Dwarf some years back?

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RIs Necromunda the 40K setting that was detailed in White Dwarf some years back?

Regards,
David R

I am not sure about the White Dwarf connection, but Necromunda was the setting of one of GW's better games.  It was a skirmish game with each player controlling a gang in the city's infamous Underhive.  It was chock full of setting goodness that could very easily be translated into RPG material.  

Fortunately, it is all available for download here (http://www.specialist-games.com/necromunda/default.asp).  Enjoy!

And I agree with those who have pointed out that Dark Heresy would seem to be well-suited to this kind of game.


TGA

Quote from: SeanLast night I played a DH game - it was like Love and Rockets' 'The Death of Speedy' meets 'The Shield', with Atari Teenage Riot and Sleep's 'Dopesmoker' as a soundtrack.

Hrrrm, I am suppose to play a one-off of DH next Sunday. I wonder how well this will go over with the WH fan (semi-retired) that wanted to play it.

Thanks TGA. Yes it's the same "setting" I think. From memory - different types of gangs, a corrupt city mayor, plotting cultist....yeah Dark Heresy (from what I've read so far), would be perfect.

Regards,
David R

I'd pay more attention to this thread if more of you were actually 40k fans.

It seems most of the bitching is because it didn't pander to you.

If you want ultraviolence, wait for Death Watch.

If they had put all of the 40k universe in one book, you'd bitch about it because it was so watered down.

The focus is great.  If you don't like the game, don't play it - there will be two more with two different focus groups.

If you don't like what I'm saying, they you either a) don't understand the premise - but think that you do or b) are very jealous of the game.

Oh and for the record, Fischig was not a beginning character, but rather the captain of the baddest ass Arbites (pronounced AR BUH TAYZ) on the planet, for those of you who have claimed to read that story.

Death Watch isn't coming out. The rogue trader game isn't coming out either. At least, not under the auspices of Black Industries: they're going to stop publishing new products after September.

GW Group owns everything.  Black Library, Black Industries - all of it.  Being a life-devotee to everything Warhammer, I know the only thing this heralds is that a different team will be making the RPG games from now on.  Most likely with this system, because GW owns everything.  They simply will not allow another company (which Black Industries wasn't anyway) to maintain control over the IP.  

Just because this is the first 40k RPG doesn't mean it's the last.  THis just announces the dissolution of the creative team as it was.

Whoever said that Specialist Games was a graveyard clearly is not a GW hobbyist.

We already have all the games we need anyway...I mean, if you like super heroic combat set in the Warhammer 40,000 universe - why don't you try Warhammer 40,000 or Necromunda?  Hell, the rules to Necromunda are free and it is an awesome game.

Dark Heresy fills a niche in the GW hobby that hasn't been filled before - an RPG set in the 40k universe.  Whoever is sad that aliens didn't make it into the book is not familiar with Warhammer 40,000 and is forming this opinion based on what they think traditional RPG's should be.

I don't really even think we need Death Watch - I myself think it my be a little too straightjacketing for RPG players to attempt to play a space marine.  Rogue Trader would be awesome, but since this is a rather iconic name in Warhammer 40,000 I wouldn't despair of ever seeing what was planned come to fruition under the watchful eye of GW.

I mean really, we didn't need Black Industries.  That was for the creative team set up under the publishing wing of GW - Black Library.

I think Black Library can fend for themselves, now that contracted writers wrote the framework for the rules systems we needed.

Blackhand.  

Relax, man.

Quote from: KrakaJakDan Abnett wrote a lot of the setting material for Dark Heresy. So, now you're wrong on all accounts :D

OOOHOHO! I stand corrected. To the corner of shame with me.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: David RIs Necromunda the 40K setting that was detailed in White Dwarf some years back?

FYI, you were right and after doing some digging it seems that the game that became Necromunda started life as an more RPG-like game called Confrontation that was indeed serialized in the pages of early White Dwarf.

I even found a website that has a lot of the old Confrontation material here (http://confrontation.8k.com/howtoplay.html).  

Adventures in the early days of Games Workshop...:D

Btw, I even found a small clue to the general GW disinterest in the RPG market in one of the pages of this web site:

QuoteGraeme [Davis] explains: "Necromunda was never intended to be a RPG, and indeed is not, placing the emphasis on the skirmishes alone. After Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play didn't double miniatures sales overnight the way W40K did, and when games like Golden Heroes, Judge Dredd and the licensed printings of Paranoia and RQ3 didn't sell too well, GW lost interest in RPGs almost completely."

TGA

GW games exist first and foremost to give you something to do with Citadel Miniatures.  Not much else to that, you can read about it on the GW Group mission statement site.

They have always been up front about that.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianBtw, I even found a small clue to the general GW disinterest in the RPG market in one of the pages of this web site:

I fondly remember the days when WD was a gaming mag with "scenarios", articles, maps, GM/Player advice and of course the bitter Dave Langford spitting out much needed venom at SF & Fantasy writers and sometimes even their books.

Role playing gamers always knew that GW corporate were not too keen on them or their hobby. A pity because the articles written for their armies lists - both 40K and fantasy - were damn inspiring setting fluff.

*shrug* What could have been.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BlackhandIf you don't like what I'm saying, they you either a) don't understand the premise - but think that you do or b) are very jealous of the game.

I understand the premise very well, thank you very much. There's a difference between understanding and agreement, and more possibilities than the two you were able to conceive of.

Quote from: BlackhandOh and for the record, Fischig was not a beginning character, but rather the captain of the baddest ass Arbites (pronounced AR BUH TAYZ) on the planet, for those of you who have claimed to read that story.

Course he's a beginning character. He's a new joiner to an Inquisitorial retinue. He wasn't "the captain", just a veteran chastener thought able to keep Eisenhorn in check. He certainly wouldn't have been allowed to tag along if he was chief of Arbites as you're implying.

Starter characters are Acolytes...not Inquisitors Retinue.

Acolytes are a step down, in that regard...

BTW Welcome to the RPGsite Blackhand!!!

Well, I just ordered Dark Heresy through Amazon.  The commentary here and at other places convinced me that it was worth a look.  Perhaps teamed with the background material culled from Necromunda it will be a decent option for gaming in the 40K universe.

It apparently won't do well for a Space Marine game of ULTRAVIOLENCE and destroying Titans with your bare hands (or Power Gloves, I suppose), but I think that I can live with that...;)


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianIt apparently won't do well for a Space Marine game of ULTRAVIOLENCE and destroying Titans with your bare hands (or Power Gloves, I suppose), but I think that I can live with that...;)

But if you can't...if you need to indulge in some grand guignol or splatterfest that plays like money shots to the eye....then you need RIFTS.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: KieroI understand the premise very well, thank you very much. There's a difference between understanding and agreement, and more possibilities than the two you were able to conceive of.



Course he's a beginning character. He's a new joiner to an Inquisitorial retinue. He wasn't "the captain", just a veteran chastener thought able to keep Eisenhorn in check. He certainly wouldn't have been allowed to tag along if he was chief of Arbites as you're implying.

It's been a a couple of years since I read that story...there are a lot of others based in the same universe, you know.  Fischig is definitely not a beginning character.

As far as understanding the premise goes, maybe you do, maybe you don't.  Seems if you were a proper GW nutjob and not just an RPG'r you'd not be so vindictive.  

By GW Nutjob I mean hobbyist, and by hobbyist I mean you construct and paint toy soldiers.

If you have been into GW games for a good long while (I'm going on about 16 years now) and not just rpg's in general (I've been playing RPG's for 20 years - not as much as some, but a lot more than most) you'd be a lot more appreciative of Dark Heresy for exactly what it is.

If it doesn't appeal to you that's fine - a lot of aspects of Warhammer in general do not appeal to all gamers.  In fact, in my experience RPGr's simply don't like Warhammer at all, even if they like D&D Minis.

I don't know why because GW > WotC.

I'd also like to clear up that to the hardcore GW hobbyist, any glaring mistakes in the system or omissions in the text or any other nitpicking simply won't matter.  Dark Heresy goes on the wall, and will definitely outlive Inquisitor in it's usefulness. In fact I think it might even be the upgrade from Inquisitor.

Interested RPGr's shouldn't limit themselves to material published by Black Industries, there are tons of gaming info and the statistics are extremely easy to convert from one GW game to another.

@ Jak - Thanks for the welcome...I've been reading Pundit's rants for almost a year now and finally decided to post on something near to my heart.

For those of you that want ultraviolence with marines...WD #300 had rules and a list for what it labeled "Movie Marines" - e.g. 10 marines take out 100 enemies with super-heroic statistics and much grabbing of alien ass.  Check that out.

Quote from: BlackhandI'd pay more attention to this thread if more of you were actually 40k fans.

Let's see here, played and owned Rogue Trader the year it came out?  Check!

Current edition and army books? Check!

Obsessive Specialist Games fan?  Check!

Hate the Black Library fiction? Check!

More GW minis than my annual income could purchase in a year?  Check!

I've got two 40k armies, arguably 3 since I have old Cadians and plastic Catachans and Orks, lots and lots of Orks.

I've got five fantasy armies: High Elves, Green Skins, Beastmen, Empire, and Brettonia.

Also, 2 Warmaster Armies, and a large collection of assembled and painted =][=nquisitor figures.

And no, I don't think they took the best aproach to Dark Heresy.  And no, I don't think it's half the game =][=nquisitor is.  And no, I don't think ultra violence is the point.  Nor do I think it's about starting out pathetic.

QuoteOriginally Posted by Dan Abnett
As far as I know, all Black Industries stuff has been canned. That’s the way it goes. If it didn’t sell, it wasn’t worth doing. You can’t argue with that. GW is making cuts across the board, and I am especially pained to see the loss of my good friend and BL publisher Marc Gascoigne. I will miss him, enormously.

Marc Gascoigne?

Man. I remember that name fondly from the ancient pre-house rag White Dwarf days. He must have a GW story or ten to tell.

There's a thread on rpg.net, at this url http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=377858

The idea was that, based on the premise the book had sold out and as such folk would be struggling to find it, people should post locations where they've spotted copies so those still looking can find it.

What's noticeable, is that there is no shortage of copies.  In fact, what's noticeable is it's not sold out to gamers at all, it's sold out to shops.  Shops have bought it, but many copies are staying right on their shelves.

Wrong focus, dead line, some other factor, I don't know why.  But that thread does not suggest that the game is as successful as many of us (me included) were assuming.

Quote from: BlackhandIt's been a a couple of years since I read that story...there are a lot of others based in the same universe, you know.  Fischig is definitely not a beginning character.

I know there's lots of others, I've read 50+ 40k novels in my time (though most of them were either shite or only worthy of reading once).

Fischig is a starting character. Same as Harlon Nayl when he joined Eisenhorn outside of the story (yet already a 15-year veteran of the bounty chasing business) is a starting character. Same as Midas Betacore is a starting character.

There are no acolyte-equivalent nobodies in the books. You've got Bequin, but within months she's badass courtesy of being trained while in transit in the warp. Everyone else is ultra-capable and stays that way.

Making characters on a par with those we actually see in the Abnett novels not only requires a lot of XP, but it's a real ball-ache to do as well.

Quote from: BlackhandAs far as understanding the premise goes, maybe you do, maybe you don't.  Seems if you were a proper GW nutjob and not just an RPG'r you'd not be so vindictive.  

By GW Nutjob I mean hobbyist, and by hobbyist I mean you construct and paint toy soldiers.

I stopped doing that shit over 10 years ago. Waste of time and money, and frankly I have zero interest in wargaming. If it weren't for the Black Library novels, I wouldn't have any contact with anything from GW at all nowadays. Abnett novels are the only thing they produce that appeals to me in the slightest.

Kiero mentioned what is my big beef here. I have dozens, if not hundreds of games (I have a lot) that let me start at the bottom of the proverbial dungheap and claw my way up the ladder in the 'Hero's Journey' nonsense.

Not only does Dark Heresy not NEED to repeat that same (tired) fucking trope, but it directly contravenes the 'source material'.  No Inquisitor would bother hiring on some fresh recruit trooper from the Imperial Guard and testing and training him up to Stormtrooper quality (the end of one branch of Guardsman career), he'd just requisition some Stormtroopers and see which ones survived the brutal missions he used them for. THOSE guys (the surivivors) are the 'raw recruits' of an Inquisitor.  

In NO 40K book I've ever read has there been a 'hero's journey'. Characters are always badass, were always badass. Space Marine 'potential recruits' are 12 year olds with the skulls of a dozen enemies they've slain on the mantelplace.

The one tired and trite defence of this 'heroes journey' style gaming is that its hard to 'cut back' a game from the starting point to capture 'starting play'.

Well guess what, binky? I tried to make an expirenced Acolyte using the rules as written and it was  a real fucking bitch.  I can see in play, in drips and drabs its probably not that hard, but all at once? To capture that 'Fischig' or 'Betancore' character? Not gonna happen.

I am strongly tempted to go into the relative impossibility of capturing traditional backgrounds like the 'Schola Progenium' or Cognitae, and all that, but I think I'll save it until I have time to do a proper review.

The only 40K fiction I've read is some stuff by Ian Watson. But reading about the current 40K fiction...all I can say is, that I'm glad Dark Heresy is not faithful to this source material. I mean if I wanted to run 40K the minis game - Space Hulk...what's the name of that Titan game etc I'd use RIFTS...but DH sounds just about right to me.

Regards,
David R

QuoteBut reading about the current 40K fiction...all I can say is, that I'm glad Dark Heresy is not faithful to this source material.

Yes. Heaven forbid that they actually make material that would appeal to consumers of their other successful products, riding on the popularity of some of the best loved characters in gaming. With thinking like that they might have stayed in business!

I gots this urge to get the Star Wars licence and start making games about salami. That sings barbershop.

Quote from: David Rsome stuff by Ian Watson.

Regards,
David R

Y'know, if I had read some stuff by C.S. Goto before getting into 40k, I might say some dumb shit like this. Heck, if I'd read the Keven J. Anderson crap I might have been thankful never to have seen the Star Wars movies, but luckily I saw the movies first.

One fucking author?

Wow, your pervasive grasp of the literature is so comprhensive I'm stunned.

Considering the ones being hyped and advertised in the back of Dark Heresy as practically 'required reading' are by an entirely different author on top of things... There is a reason Dan Abnett has some dozen plus 40k books under his belt to Ian Watsons... what, one trilogy?

Here's a hint... read the popular books for 40k, not trash that fills out the shelves.

QuoteYes. Heaven forbid that they actually make material that would appeal to consumers of their other successful products, riding on the popularity of some of the best loved characters in gaming. With thinking like that they might have stayed in business!

I dunno...isn't DH selling pretty well ? This just could be because folks want to grab a piece of the cake and make a profit on ebay. I don't know much of the history but they made WFRP based on their war game and created a game of grubby fantasy. *shrug* But then again you may be right, I'm not the intended audience (although I have to say they did manage to hook me in)... I'm so old school , I still think that the Eldar Aspect Warriors are cool....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: SpikeWow, your pervasive grasp of the literature is so comprhensive I'm stunned.

Hey it was a pretty good book(s).

Regards,
David R

QuoteI don't know much of the history but they made WFRP based on their war game and created a game of grubby fantasy.

Given that it has now turned up its toes and died on FOUR occasions, some might doubt the wisdom of that decision. Given how at odd it is with the rest of GWs stuff.

I mean, hell, I'm just throwing it out there - given that your RPG keeps dying, maybe you should write something that might appeal more to fans of the biggest IP in hobby gaming. You know, the one with the same name as on the front of the book?

I know you have a hard on for call of cthulhu, but seriously, evidence suggests that that might not be what Warhammer fans are looking for.

Quote from: Erik BoielleGiven that it has now turned up its toes and died on FOUR occasions, some might doubt the wisdom of that decision. Given how at odd it is with the rest of GWs stuff.

Fair enough....but 2E which was a more streamlined version of the game could have been a contender, right?

Edit :

QuoteI know you have a hard on for call of cthulhu, but seriously, evidence suggests that that might not be what Warhammer fans are looking for

You must have me confused with someone else.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RFair enough....but 2E which was a more streamlined version of the game could have been a contender, right?

I played it once. I felt like driving into a wall on the way home. I skipped the second of our groups two planned sessions. I voted we never play it again.

I grew up forking turds out of a barn, standing shin deep in liquid shit. I saw no need to play a game about it.

Quote from: David RFair enough....but 2E which was a more streamlined version of the game could have been a contender, right?

Nah. 2E was still designed so that no mater who your favorite character from the wargame/novels/viideogames was, you couldn't play them, largely to appease vocal but unimportant denizens of web fora.

Where is the complete slayers handbook? The Chaos Knights guidebook?

In short, it died the day it was concieved.

Quote from: blakkieI grew up forking turds out of a barn, standing shin deep in liquid shit. I saw no need to play a game about it.

:eek:...so it's a class thing :D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Erik BoielleIn short, it died the day it was concieved.

Eh, I thought it was doing pretty well? They were certainly churning out supplements.

Regards,
David R

QuoteYou must have me confused with someone else.

I was talking to,,yknow, Them. Not you.

Damn You!

I mean er, Damn Them!

QuoteEh, I thought it was doing pretty well? They were certainly churning out supplements.

I suspect, although this is basically a guess, that strong initial sales based on it being a WARHAMMER rpg tailed off rapidly as it became apparent that it had little to do with warhammer.

Then it died.

Quote from: David R:eek:...so it's a class thing :D

Regards,
David R

Maybe. :o  Or maybe it's a "I play RPGs to be EPIC!, not be depressed" thing. :D

P.S. My class now is bordering on polar opposite that of my relatively humble redneck beginings. ;)

QuoteI suspect, although this is basically a guess, that strong initial sales based on it being a WARHAMMER rpg tailed off rapidly as it became apparent that it had little to do with warhammer.

Then it died.

I'm not too sure about this.

This is purely anecdotal but the Warhammer mini gamers I know (being once part of the scene) had no interest in the second ed rpg nor did the gamers who both role played and wargamed but who had no interest in the rpg the first time around.

I think the second ed was made for the first ed gamers and hopefully for a new batch of gamers. Also the supplements from what I've read were supposed to be stand alone products. I have no idea about actual sales but it seemed to be doing pretty well.

blakkie - I guess this means I won't be running Nicotine Girls for you anytime soon :(

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RHey it was a pretty good book(s).

Regards,
David R

Didn't rate them, myself, but then I don't like sci-fi either.

Quote from: David REh, I thought it was doing pretty well? They were certainly churning out supplements.

Regards,
David R

There's the deceptive thing about the print run selling out. It's sold out into the distribution channels, to retailers. Yet in Britain at least there's plenty of copies sitting on shelves, and people don't seem to be struggling to get it from Amazon.

Quote from: KieroDidn't rate them, myself, but then I don't like sci-fi either.

Huh? Why do you like 40k then?

It's becoming rather evident that you could write what you do like on the back of a stamp. Bah, humbug.  :pundit:

Quote from: KieroThere's the deceptive thing about the print run selling out. It's sold out into the distribution channels, to retailers. Yet in Britain at least there's plenty of copies sitting on shelves, and people don't seem to be struggling to get it from Amazon.

You talking about 40K or WFRP 2E ? (I was talking about WFRP 2E products)

Regards,
David R

Quote from: One Horse TownHuh? Why do you like 40k then?

It's becoming rather evident that you could write what you do like on the back of a stamp. Bah, humbug.  :pundit:

Abnett's pulp-in-40k primarily. His books are the only BL (and by extension GW) product I buy.


David R: I was talking about 40KRP, that was floating around in the thread and I happened to pick your comment out.

Quote from: David Rblakkie - I guess this means I won't be running Nicotine Girls for you anytime soon :(

I'll try anything for one session. :)  Hey, I tried WHFRP for a session. I might have even had fun with it if I hadn't been looking at a future of playing the game week after week.

P.S. I'd probably write down a really epic Dreams. A chance to be epic by the end of the session! :keke:

Quote from: KieroAbnett's pulp-in-40k primarily. His books are the only BL (and by extension GW) product I buy.


David R: I was talking about 40KRP, that was floating around in the thread and I happened to pick your comment out.

So, basically you're basing your entire opinion of the bloody universe  and what it "should" be on one bloody book series?

Still a fucking idiot as always, I see.

Quote from: J ArcaneSo, basically you're basing your entire opinion of the bloody universe  and what it "should" be on one bloody book series?

Still a fucking idiot as always, I see.

Well, fuckwit, given almost nothing else actually deals with the subject matter of the Inquisition, then it's not unreasonable. Most of it is shitty Space Marine fanwank.

And it's two series, not one.

Quote from: J ArcaneSo, basically you're basing your entire opinion of the bloody universe  and what it "should" be on one bloody book series?

Still a fucking idiot as always, I see.

Eh, I can top that.  I base my entire opinion of the 40K universe and what it "should" on a single book: the original Rogue Trader hardback.

There's nobody I can't out-stupid if I set my mind to it.

Quote from: blakkieI'll try anything for one session. :)  Hey, I tried WHFRP for a session. I might have even had fun with it if I hadn't been looking at a future of playing the game week after week.

This is exactly the attitude of my current crew :cheers:

Edit: jrients, yeah the original Rogue Trader hardcover, that's 40K to me.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: jrientsEh, I can top that.  I base my entire opinion of the 40K universe and what it "should" on a single book: the original Rogue Trader hardback.

There's nobody I can't out-stupid if I set my mind to it.

You, sir, are my kind of stupid.  :cool:


TGA

Hasn't there been ENOUGH Inquisition subject matter published by GW in the 20 years of Warhammer 40,000?

Dan Abnett is not the end-all be-all of Warhammer fiction.  In fact I've only heard his name in the last 10 years or so.

Dark Heresy is obviously not the game for you if you think this way.  Like Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, they targeted the game at people who are aware of and play the battle games and who are wanting to set a roleplaying game in that universe - not for roleplayers in general.  I think it's this issue that is the seed of the dissatisfaction most of you seem to be expressing.

I also enjoy the fact that some of you seem to think you have a superb grip on the background from a recent spattering of books from a single prolific author.  You're an idiot.

In the end I think you'd get more out of Dark Heresy if you were already into 40k, period.  Yeah, it lacks some depth as far as background goes, but if you have a chest full of old material from 15+ years of GW then it's not really an issue for you - you don't even notice it and you wonder why the book is so goddamned big in the first place.  I know what a damn heavy bolter is already, I know what the Ordos are and what they do and how they go about it.  If you don't and need clarification or more background information (the Calixis Sector?  I don't even use this chapter - my gaming groups' very own Mardannon Sector is the setting instead.)

There's literally TONS of material on the Inquisition, but get a little creativity and MAKE SOMETHING UP!  The galaxy is huge and teeming with thousands of Inquisitors who may or may not be aware of one another and each other's plots.  Try your imagination, or go back to your D&D table.

Quote from: jrientsEh, I can top that.  I base my entire opinion of the 40K universe and what it "should" on a single book: the original Rogue Trader hardback.

There's nobody I can't out-stupid if I set my mind to it.

Nah.  Rogue Trader gives a far better sense of the scope of the 40k universe than all this Inquisition wank.

Quote from: David R:eek:...so it's a class thing :D

I think there is something to the emotional/class tourism argument.  Seriously, do you think lower-income girls would want to play a game about lower-income girls looking for happiness (Nicotine Girls) or is the idea of playing such characters more likely to appeal to middle and upper-class guys for whom such characters might actually seem a bit unusual if not exotic?

I think the fact that this thread has devolved into a comparison of Nicotine Girls tells me that something about you I didn't want to know and definitively marks you as no fans of 40k by any stretch of the imagination - therefore you have no right to Dark Heresy, and you should burn your copy immediately.

Quote from: BlackhandI think the fact that this thread has devolved into a comparison of Nicotine Girls tells me that something about you I didn't want to know and definitively marks you as no fans of 40k by any stretch of the imagination - therefore you have no right to Dark Heresy, and you should burn your copy immediately.

My last comment was specifically based on the comment I was replying to and not the broader discussion about what the real 40K is.

Me, personally?  I'm not a huge fan of 40K and never claimed to be.  I've been pretty clear about the fact that my primary interest is in using Dark Heresy to run a Necromunda role-playing game, which is the part of the 40K Universe that I am interested in.

So, if I should burn my copy of Dark Heresy, do you think I should I burn my copy of Rogue Trader, too?  I must have missed the "For True Fans Only" restriction on purchasing them.

You should donate your copy of Rogue Trader to the first homeless person you see tomorrow.

Why does everyone bring that up?  It's like it's street cred for 40k but in reality its not.  It's old edition stuff and everyone waxes nostalgic, but that was 20 years ago and 40k has progressed a lot more.

If you cite Rogue Trader as your 'flavor' of 40k then you probably bought it 20 years ago, gamed once with it and decided 40k sucked.

However you can cite it as 'true' 40k when these posts come up and everyone will think you know something they don't, when in fact Rogue Trader doesn't have anything in it that isn't reprinted elsewhere.  Or phased out of continuity.

Quote from: Blackhand- therefore you have no right to Dark Heresy, and you should burn your copy immediately.

Unfortunately our group contains one ex-WH-weekender and one ex-full-out-basement-full-of-miniatures-WH-fan.  Ergo I have an interest in following the thread even though I don't play WH minis and wouldn't recognize a heavy bolter if it ran through my front door.

P.S. The path of thought seems pretty clear: WH, WHFRP, shoveling shit, Nicotine Girls. :deflated:  Dick.

Quote from: blakkieUnfortunately our group contains one ex-WH-weekender and one ex-full-out-basement-full-of-miniatures-WH-fan.  Ergo I have an interest in following the thread even though I don't play WH minis.

P.S. The path of thought seems pretty clear: WH, WHFRP, shoveling shit, Nicotine Girls. :deflated:  Dick.

WH weekender = Primered Models at best.

Ex Full Out basement full of miniatures = cried and sold all minis at one edition change or another.

Both = I'll wager D&D wankers for sure.

Quote from: blakkieP.S. The path of thought seems pretty clear: WH, WHFRP, shoveling shit, Nicotine Girls. :deflated:  Dick.

Thanks. I didn't want to post that in every thread, but there really isn't a better reply.

Quote from: BlackhandYou should donate your copy of Rogue Trader to the first homeless person you see tomorrow.

Yeah, but glossy pages are a poor choice for toilet paper which is doubtlessly what said homeless person would use the book for eventually.

Lighten up.

But you are right about taking what stuff is out there and make your own thing, though.

Quote from: Thanatos02Thanks. I didn't want to post that in every thread, but there really isn't a better reply.

I could post here about how you lack creativity, but your example is nothing if not eloquent.

Quote from: BlackhandYou should donate your copy of Rogue Trader to the first homeless person you see tomorrow.

That this thread has devolved into discussions of book burning (:eek:) and who is qualified to opine about a game that involves playing with toy soldiers and playing make believe tells me something about you I didn't want to know, though it may explain a great deal about why playing Inquisitors is so appealing to certain fans of the game.

Quote from: BlackhandWhy does everyone bring that up?  It's like it's street cred for 40k but in reality its not.  It's old edition stuff and everyone waxes nostalgic, but that was 20 years ago and 40k has progressed a lot more.

I'm a role-player, not a wargamer.  I presume that puts me into some lower circle of geek Hell as far as you are concerned.  Rogue Trader was very close to being an role-playing game, hence my interest in it.  Warhammer 40K moved away from that and it's small unit skirmish origins, toward the sorts of high powered fantasy that others have talked about in this thread, thus I never had much interest in it.  Necromunda, on the other hand, like the Rogue Trader 40K, is a small unit skirmish game that's also very close to being a role-playing game, hence my interest in it.

To make this clear for you, just so there is no misunderstanding, I don't find large armies of nameless space marines painted nearly alike terribly interesting.  I do find small groups of individual characters in skirmish situations interesting, especially when their setting is a place where normal individuals matter.  If you haven't noticed, this is a role-playing message board, not a 40K fan site.  

Quote from: BlackhandIf you cite Rogue Trader as your 'flavor' of 40k then you probably bought it 20 years ago, gamed once with it and decided 40k sucked.

Ha!  I can top that.  I bought it around 20 years ago and never actually played it, because it wasn't a role-playing game, though I might have if I were given the opportunity.  Similarly, I own lots of Necromunda stuff but have never actually used it, but would play if given the opportunity.  My primary interest in it was as potential role-playing material, not as an incentive for me to buy hundreds of dollars of lead and plastic figures, which is why GW likely isn't all that interested in me as a market.

Of course my brother-in-law, who doesn't role-play, owns quite a bit of 40K stuff including those lead and plastic figures.  He hasn't actually played either.  You see, one of his hobbies is modeling and he's enjoying painting the miniatures and equipment because he likes the way they look, but is looking for an opportunity to play.  So is he doing it wrong, too?

Quote from: BlackhandHowever you can cite it as 'true' 40k when these posts come up and everyone will think you know something they don't, when in fact Rogue Trader doesn't have anything in it that isn't reprinted elsewhere.  Or phased out of continuity.

I could care less about what is or isn't "true" 40K.  My primary interest is in whether I like it or not.  My primary use for GW properties, be they 40K, Necromunda, or their Fantasy setting is as role-playing settings, not as wargames.  Maybe I'm not a true fan or I'm not doing it right or something.  Guess what?  I don't care.

Out of curiosity, do you own a copy of Rogue Trader?

Quote from: BlackhandWH weekender = Primered Models at best.

I believe he had at one small painted army (like 1000 points, maybe a bit more). But yeah, a dabbler. That's what I said, right?

QuoteEx Full Out basement full of miniatures = cried and sold all minis at one edition change or another.

Then the basement wouldn't still be full, would it? :) But mostly he decided to stop sinking cash into them. It had something to do with growing up when he graduated from highschool. :p

QuoteBoth = I'll wager D&D wankers for sure.

One of them, yeah (the weekender). But I refuse to play D&D anymore. So he's converted to being a Castles & Crusaders wanker trying to convince us to play that. We humour him and play one-offs from time to time. :) Oh, and he's also bit pissed about 4e since he actually has a fair number of 3e books. So he's got some D&D hate going on now.

Quote from: BlackhandI could post here about how you lack creativity, but your example is nothing if not eloquent.

You're clearly dealing with the very height of my rhetorical effort.

My copy of Rogue Trader, along with the First Book of the Astronomicon, Lost and the Damned, Slaves to Darkness, Waagh! Da Orks, Freebooterz and all the other old edition stuff is on the top shelf of my Warhammer Library - out of reach of just about everyone but me.  Though I was only around at the very end of this era I have made a point to collect everything that I can, something anyone who is a comic book collector will be able to identify with.

All the old edition stuff goes up there, with 2nd, 3rd and very soon 4th edition.

I don't think the guy who's modeling is doing it wrong.  You're not doing it WRONG either, but I think a lot of folks on this board are off base in their assumptions about what Dark Heresy is supposed to and should be.

Also, there was no one here to defend this masterful tome.  It has brought forth something for gamers like me (who do think that RPGr's in general are 'lesser geeks' than wargamers) who cannot stomach any more D&D (munchkin) or Palladium (broken) or World of Darkness (emo) or indeed any other RPG by anyone ever.

Except Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

@ Thanatos - I can tell.

This guy's gonna fit right in. Welcome to The RPGsite, Blackhand. :pundit:

Quote from: Thanatos02This guy's gonna fit right in. Welcome to The RPGsite, Blackhand. :pundit:

Fuck.  Thanatos, you beat me to the punchline.  

Bastard. :D

Btw, props to Blackhand for coming into a (virtual) living room full of roleplayers and taking a big ol' shit on the carpet.  Good luck in your future endeavors, sir.  And welcome to theRPGSite!


TGA

Quote from: Thanatos02This guy's gonna fit right in. Welcome to The RPGsite, Blackhand. :pundit:

That's exactly what I was thinking. He actually reads Pundit's blog!  I assume that's more than most people here?

I'm not sure how to respond to all that - members of my wargaming board are seldom so gracious when I shit on the carpet.  They don't even fake it.  However, many thanks for the welcome to the boards.

As an aside, you should try naming your space marines and creating a character for them in context of the wargame.  It's how everyone I know does it.  It's just that it's a lot cooler when Crusade Marshall Erebus banishes the Daemon Prince Kal'duraas the Abrogator back to the warp during the battle for Medula Praeses than when Space Marine Captain A destroys Daemon Prince B in that game you played last week.

Quote from: BlackhandMy copy of Rogue Trader, along with the First Book of the Astronomicon, Lost and the Damned, Slaves to Darkness, Waagh! Da Orks, Freebooterz and all the other old edition stuff is on the top shelf of my Warhammer Library - out of reach of just about everyone but me.  Though I was only around at the very end of this era I have made a point to collect everything that I can, something anyone who is a comic book collector will be able to identify with.

I think that explains the difference.  For at least several people here, Rogue Trader was the first Warhammer 40K material that they bought, and it defined Warhammer 40K for them.  And if you collect comic books, you should be familiar with how comic book fans often view the period during which they first became fans and the comics that they read were first defined for them as the ideal against which later issues (and even earlier issues) are judged against.  Thus the fan who became a fan of Spider-Man during the early 1970s may have a very different perspective on how Spider-Man should be than a new fan.  That's at least part of what's going on here.

Quote from: BlackhandI don't think the guy who's modeling is doing it wrong.  You're not doing it WRONG either, but I think a lot of folks on this board are off base in their assumptions about what Dark Heresy is supposed to and should be.

My own biggest complaint was with the narrow focus and idea of releasing the role-playing material in three games.  Seeing how that's never going to happen, the game is never going to be complete in the way that both editions of 40K are.  As for ideals, I think the original Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play is the ideal against which I judge Warhammer-setting role-playing games (and all role-playing games, actually).  It was complete in one book.  Really complete.  I think that's ideal for the players and GM, even if it leaves much to be desired from a game company sales perspective.

Quote from: BlackhandAlso, there was no one here to defend this masterful tome.  It has brought forth something for gamers like me (who do think that RPGr's in general are 'lesser geeks' than wargamers) who cannot stomach any more D&D (munchkin) or Palladium (broken) or World of Darkness (emo) or indeed any other RPG by anyone ever.

I was convinced to buy a copy based on comments in this thread, and not your comments, either.  I find the idea of using it to play a Necromunda game appealing.  (ADDED: To make it clear, I wouldn't run a Necromunda game that focuses on crap-shoveling, either, even though that's certainly literally possible in the setting.)

Quote from: BlackhandExcept Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay.

I've played lots of WFRP but I never played it as the hopeless crap-shoveling setting that some people seem to run it as.

So what exactly do you think the Warhammer role-playing games did right that all of the other games do wrong?

Quote from: BlackhandI'm not sure how to respond to all that - members of my wargaming board are seldom so gracious when I shit on the carpet.

Dude, this board is run by someone whose single notable quality is that he's a prolific soiler of carpets. :pundit:

EDIT: Plus I feel a little sorry for you. Like one of those kids that needs a motorized wheelchair with the mouth operated joystick. :D

Quote from: BlackhandI'm not sure how to respond to all that - members of my wargaming board are seldom so gracious when I shit on the carpet.  They don't even fake it.  However, many thanks for the welcome to the boards.

The welcome is meant with sincerity.  This board is better for having people who speak their minds and can hack it when people call bullshit on them.

Quote from: BlackhandAs an aside, you should try naming your space marines and creating a character for them in context of the wargame.  It's how everyone I know does it.  It's just that it's a lot cooler when Crusade Marshall Erebus banishes the Daemon Prince Kal'duraas the Abrogator back to the warp during the battle for Medula Praeses than when Space Marine Captain A destroys Daemon Prince B in that game you played last week.

As both a wargamer and roleplayer I completely agree.  My favorite GW games are Mordheim and Necromunda, which very much encourage this process of character identification...which is probably why I like them so much. ;)

In wargames dealing with higher scales of action (I play a lot of Napoleonics and WW2, frex), I do the same thing but since it is impractical to create characterizations of the individual soldiers I concentrate on how well the game simulates the experience and decision-making process of the level of command that the game is supposed to represent.  Meaning if I am playing a game where I am supposed to be a WW2 battalion commander, I want mechanics that emphasize what is important to me, the information that I would have, and the meaningful decisions that I would make as a battalion commander.

What can I say.  I am a roleplayer at heart.  It works for me.


TGA

I don't collect comic books, and the first material I was exposed to was Rogue Trader.  I witnessed a game and met some folks who played it, and for a time was mystified.  I had played D&D, and was familiar with that...but this was different.

2nd Ed came along and that's when I actually got a copy of the manual for myself.  I have grown accustomed to GW's practices now and while I do understand the reasoning behind them, I find the price hikes to be the only thing that miffs me.

More to the point, anyone who is under the mistaken impression that everything could fit in the book to make a 'complete' game for roleplaying anything you want from the 40k universe simply isn't familiar with the setting.  You may know the difference between a space marine and a commissar, but only visually / thematically.  There is so much strife in the 41st millennium that there are bars on who/what can work together.

40k has always been 'humanocentric'.  There are no aliens.  Dark Heresy is not about superhumans.  No space marines.  It is not about the Imperial Guard, though the Guardsman career could be used to represent an actual Imperial Guardsman (the book actually states that Guardsmen aren't nescessarily Guard and that Assassins aren't Adeptus Assassinorum).

Dark Heresy isn't even about Inquisitors, so no Inquisitor characters.  You are the low beings that no one will miss, who probably don't even 'exist' anymore thanks to your master's influence.

Would that there could have been additional books exploring other focuses from the 41st millenium, but I will have to defend the design decision that everyone has been dragging through the mud from the perspective of someone who appreciates it.

For one thing, not only would it have destroyed playability entirely to include Space Marines and (filthy) xenos as player characters, but the required amount of information would mean so much more was left out of the finished product.

Dark Heresy deals with mystery through the eyes of Inquisitorial Agents.  Had there been an option for space marines, it would have doubled the size of the book with just the minimum number of entries such a thing might require.  It would also take combat to an entirely different level than the one depicted in the game - you don't see Adeptus Astartes in Necromunda, do you?  They'd kill everyone quickly and without much fuss.

You can modify Dark Heresy to your hearts content...a Necromunda style RPG game would be something I would be interested in playing, but lets not forget that the books that had been planned by BI would have been completely different beasts.

Think of a space marine book - mega damage is the closest comparison I can think of in terms of RPG mechanics that might show you the difference in combat capability of even a scout marine vs. one of these Inquisitorial agents depicted in Dark Heresy.

It's not MEANT to be a complete game, for all gods' sakes.  It has a narrow focus - something that you NEED in order to be able to process the utterly VAST setting that is the Imperium.

This game is very good at what it does - it lets you play agents of the Inquisition who (more or less) are ordinary individuals faced with the cosmic horror of an uncaring galaxy.  There's your Lovecraft reference.

As far as 'complete' goes - this is more or less it and I don't really think we need any more.  We now have a framework and examples for all of us who will actually drag out the old edition material (and not just talk about how it was the good old days) and draw fresh ideas and even use the damn statistics from (all Warhammer games are close enough for those who can fend for themselves without the aid of game designers).

Do you really want to play space marines who will follow any order given without question to the letter?  Not a lot of room for innovation there, and the game would get really boring playing a space marine.  Save that for the battle games, which already have a great system for combat between marines and aliens.

So the crux of the question is "what do they do right that others do wrong".  The answer is they are members of the Warhammer family.  They interconnect in ways that only true fans of the setting / company / miniatures will appreciate, they can be modified by said personae to emulate whatever it is they want.

As far as the 'hopeless, crap shoveling setting' - Warhammer has always been about the struggle against the encroaching night.  If you like CoC you'll like Warhammer.  If not, just show up for the gore.

No pretenses.  No inner turmoil 'I'm an emo vampire' crap.

No uber-characters of 20th level.  Anyone can be stabbed in the face and killed.

If you're running WFRP like Forgotten Realms expecting crazy combats to last for hours against hordes of enemies by superheroes - this is not your game, or your game family.  You want D&D.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you ment "no aliens" in Dark Heresy rather than 40k.

Anyhow, I could easily do a complete 40k rpg using GURPS in the same format as GURPS Prime Directive.  Any you'd be able to play a C'tan with it.  I could do it with Rolemaster in a single book the size of Spacemaster:Privateers and you could at least play Orks and Eldar.

The problem with the WFRP / Dark Hersey mechanics is that they are very structured and limiting.  This makes it necessary to limit the scope of the core game.

I'd like to see a complete game.  With GURPS. lol

So the problem is that the core game is too structured?  And this limits you somehow?

WFRP's scope is limited?  In what way, that you can't be an orc big boss?  They were getting to that, in the same way as the Children of the Horned Rat book allowed you to play skaven.

It's just not feasable in terms of game mechanics to have a "C'tan" career (I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this was sarcasm) right next to "Ork Boy" which is next to the "Imperial Janitor" career.  Don't pretend that it is feasable and / or that you can do it - or even that you could do a better job than BI has with the subject matter depicted in Dark Heresy.

You might could come up with a mishmash of stats and references that your game group could play - benny can be the star eater, god of the underworld and I'll play a tyranid warrior.  Just don't pretend that it would be worth anyone else looking at or attempting to understand how it 'fits' as perfectly as you think.

Well, this is one sock puppet I was hoping would've already gotten bored.

Who is it, J?

Whoever it is, I'd pay good money to watch a cage-match between Blackhand and Erik Boielle.

Maybe we could do one of those pistols-at-dawn thread thingies on the topic of Dark Heresy?

Quote from: The Good AssyrianMy favorite GW games are Mordheim and Necromunda, which very much encourage this process of character identification...which is probably why I like them so much. ;)

*sigh*  I once owned Necromunda.  Loved it up until we had a tournament that my ex-wife (gf at the time) won that led to some bad blood between her and one of my friends over accusations of "cheating" (which was all about some stupid math error).  Thus, I had to get rid of it.

Now I have no wife or Necromunda.  The lesson here, kids, is - never get rid of anything because of a SO - rent a storage locker.

Sure, I can download the pdf, but I still want the buildings and the minis darn it (though not enough to pay eBay prices, LOL).

Anyhow, I loved being able to personalize the Necromunda characters.  My gang was based on bad action stars.  Lorenzo Lamas was the first to die in the tournament.  :D

The other guys got into it to with "theme" gangs.  One guy had "Juan's Lawn Service" (making fun of Latinos), while another guy (who is Korean) had a gang that made fun of white guys (which offended the only other white guy in our group, his roommate, who eventually used it as evidence of "racism" to the college during a nasty and rather stupid dispute later that year).

JGants - Sounds like an awesome opportunity for you to make some scenery!  I've seen some Necromunda set ups that cover entire 6x4 tables in multi level gantries and buildings.

The cardboard buildings are kinda looked upon as 'get-you-by' terrain until you get a hunk of styrofoam and see in the shapes a whole mess of possible buildings and constructions - then you make your own scenery that looks tons better.  There is a huge amount of information on the web to give you ideas and even step by step terrain building sites.

As far as the minis go, most of the old range and a whole mess of new models are available on the Specialist Games website.  Necromunda is alive and kicking, as my Arbites squad "9th Precinct Regulators" can attest with their success in our league.  By the way, I'd rather have another Arbites with a shotgun than a thrice-damned cyberhound, but them's the breaks.

Sounds like you're a hobbyist at heart.  

Girls HATE Warhammer and the related games.  This fact is acknowledged (in as many words) on the GW group mission statement.  Don't be afraid to tell your SO to piss off, you're painting.

Most of the guys I know love the fact that girls hate it as they don't try to come hang out on Warhammer night.  We are then free to quaff beer in a manner as befits men with beards.

They'll infest the table with girly politics men don't understand if you're doing a D&D or other RPG session, but mention Warhammer and they'll stay home knitting.  Most girls will either try to make you get rid of it with ridicule, slander and violence OR (if they really love you) will simply ignore it and pretend it's NASCAR or Wrestling.

It's just that sometimes I like to get away from my SO.

Quote from: BlackhandSounds like you're a hobbyist at heart.

I love the idea of minis wargaming.  But the fact I'm lazy, untalented, and cheap keeps getting in the way of me being any kind of hobbyist (hence, my current preference for Heroscape or Memoir'44 style games).

Quote from: BlackhandGirls HATE Warhammer and the related games.

I know you're only joking here (or trolling), but I'll just point out again that my ex-wife actually liked Necromunda.  Right up until the point she got accused of cheating because she forgot to carry a one when adding up the point values for her gang (after she won the tournament).  It was the bad blood between players, not the game, that caused a problem.

Quote from: jgants*sigh*  I once owned Necromunda.  Loved it up until we had a tournament that my ex-wife (gf at the time) won that led to some bad blood between her and one of my friends over accusations of "cheating" (which was all about some stupid math error).  Thus, I had to get rid of it.

Games before dames, dude...:hehe:

Quote from: jgantsThe other guys got into it to with "theme" gangs.  One guy had "Juan's Lawn Service" (making fun of Latinos), while another guy (who is Korean) had a gang that made fun of white guys (which offended the only other white guy in our group, his roommate, who eventually used it as evidence of "racism" to the college during a nasty and rather stupid dispute later that year).

That sounds like an "interesting" tournament you had going there...:p

Our regular Mordheim league was fun, but not quite so colorful.  We had a Scottish Highland-themed Skaven band, but most of us played it pretty "straight" from the game background.  I had a puritan Witchhunter warband led by Solomon Kane, etc.


TGA

Quote from: jgantsI love the idea of minis wargaming.  But the fact I'm lazy, untalented, and cheap keeps getting in the way of me being any kind of hobbyist (hence, my current preference for Heroscape or Memoir'44 style games).

That's a drag, man.

Quote from: jgantsI know you're only joking here (or trolling)

It's definitely one OR the other.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeWhoever it is, I'd pay good money to watch a cage-match between Blackhand and Erik Boielle.

I dunno. He seems to have a healthy love of Space Marines and their abilities, so I have a hard time working up the hate.

Dude just needs a litttle hand holding to understand that it is okay to want the cool models with the big guns and bigger muscles. And who would have been better placed to help him overcome his fears than BI?

Incidentally -- see this?

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/30323.html

distilled warhammer

Quote from: Erik BoielleI dunno. He seems to have a healthy love of Space Marines and their abilities, so I have a hard time working up the hate.

Dude just needs a litttle hand holding to understand that it is okay to want the cool models with the big guns and bigger muscles. And who would have been better placed to help him overcome his fears than BI?

Incidentally -- see this?

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/30323.html

distilled warhammer

You're not talking about me are you?  I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about, but Viking is distilled Total War, and it might be argued that Warhammer Fantasy is in the same vein as Total War.  However, ancient style battles are a different beast than futuristic games where everyone has a gun, which is what we're talking about with Dark Heresy.  Also, in case you didn't notice, Viking is a video game.

I'd really like to know what you mean by the muscles bit, maybe you're implying I'm a homosexual for playing with models, but I thought I made it clear that I already thought it was ok if I get cool models - if that's a jab at me you should take a moment and focus your energies.

Quote from: BlackhandI'd really like to know what you mean by the muscles bit, maybe you're implying I'm a homosexual for playing with models, but I thought I made it clear that I already thought it was ok if I get cool models - if that's a jab at me you should take a moment and focus your energies.

Oooooo, the judges have deducted a point for trolling.

Mr. Boielle, your response?

:popcorn:


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianOooooo, the judges have deducted a point for trolling.

Mr. Boielle, your response?

:popcorn:


TGA

Oh noez mah stratterjy wuz gimpz0r3d!1!

Quote from: John MorrowI think there is something to the emotional/class tourism argument.  Seriously, do you think lower-income girls would want to play a game about lower-income girls looking for happiness (Nicotine Girls) or is the idea of playing such characters more likely to appeal to middle and upper-class guys for whom such characters might actually seem a bit unusual if not exotic?

Seriously, can't you take a joke or do you have to piss around threads finding things that offend you? Your political/social commentary is boring as it is and I know that certain games offend your sensibilities, but fuck it, question away and if I find anything remotely interesting about them, I'll answer.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Thanatos02Who is it, J?

No idea, don't really care, I just know his rambling, incoherent, and irrelevant responses make my brain hurt.

Now I have to go and register a female persona who loves warhammer and masturbates over space marine figures.

The reason structure consumes space is that careers are one more thing that takes description and pages.  GURPS boils them down to nice little templates just like races.  Everything is plug and play which is why you could cover the c'tan with a half page template.  You'd have to trim the skill and advantage list a bunch but I think most of what I'd need's in Prime Directive.  Fewer races means more pages for vehicle rules and stats.

I'll be honest and note that I'd trim back hard on the new "high quality" background and in exchange for a broad overview and there wouldn't be a starter adventure because I never use them and am not fond of finding them polluting my rulebook.

Yes that's right, a rule book should be a reference book about the rules, a setting book should be a reference book about the setting and ideally I'd never find one in the same book as the other...

Quote from: David JohansenNow I have to go and register a female persona who loves warhammer and masturbates over space marine figures.

The reason structure consumes space is that careers are one more thing that takes description and pages.  GURPS boils them down to nice little templates just like races.  Everything is plug and play which is why you could cover the c'tan with a half page template.  You'd have to trim the skill and advantage list a bunch but I think most of what I'd need's in Prime Directive.  Fewer races means more pages for vehicle rules and stats.

I'll be honest and note that I'd trim back hard on the new "high quality" background and in exchange for a broad overview and there wouldn't be a starter adventure because I never use them and am not fond of finding them polluting my rulebook.

Yes that's right, a rule book should be a reference book about the rules, a setting book should be a reference book about the setting and ideally I'd never find one in the same book as the other...

Lemme just say, nothing personal but...

Everyone should take a moment to decide how they would shit on this book he's speaking of.  I'll name a few we'd hear right off the bat...

1. Not enough background
2. No starter adventure
3. Too broad an outline
4. Too disparate character generation for one book
5. Not enough vehicle rules
6. Not enough insanity rules
7-499. Insert whatever you like to bitch about here.
500. You have C'tan as PC's.
501. Isn't user friendly being hard crunch throughout.

The thing that really fucks me off with Dark Heresy, I mean seriously fucks me off, is that I've agreed pretty much entirely with Erik Boille's post-release analysis of where it goes wrong at the conceptual level.

I never agree with Erik, sadly this time the fucker's right.  The game should have been pitched to let you play 40k games, instead it's pitched to let you play in the 40k universe.  Those are very different things.

Quote from: BlackhandHasn't there been ENOUGH Inquisition subject matter published by GW in the 20 years of Warhammer 40,000?

Most of which has either been snippets, or invariably shit.

Quote from: BlackhandDan Abnett is not the end-all be-all of Warhammer fiction.  In fact I've only heard his name in the last 10 years or so.

He can write. Which puts him ahead of 90% of the people BL employ to churn out drek. I mean have you ever read any of the excrable works of Jonathan Green?

Quote from: BlackhandDark Heresy is obviously not the game for you if you think this way.  

Well, duh, as I was saying, I think the entire premise is shite.

Quote from: BlackhandLike Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, they targeted the game at people who are aware of and play the battle games and who are wanting to set a roleplaying game in that universe - not for roleplayers in general.  I think it's this issue that is the seed of the dissatisfaction most of you seem to be expressing.

I thought WFRP was wank when I played it ten years ago. I still think it's wank now.

Quote from: BlackhandI also enjoy the fact that some of you seem to think you have a superb grip on the background from a recent spattering of books from a single prolific author.  You're an idiot.

I had second edition Rogue Trader from years back before I lost it. Or sold it. Can't actually remember which. I even bought that rag White Dwarf regularly for a while. Thankfully I did stop wasting my money on the pointless little figures GW churn out, and the equally pointless time-sink of painting the stupid little things.

Quote from: BlackhandIn the end I think you'd get more out of Dark Heresy if you were already into 40k, period.  Yeah, it lacks some depth as far as background goes, but if you have a chest full of old material from 15+ years of GW then it's not really an issue for you - you don't even notice it and you wonder why the book is so goddamned big in the first place.  I know what a damn heavy bolter is already, I know what the Ordos are and what they do and how they go about it.  If you don't and need clarification or more background information (the Calixis Sector?  I don't even use this chapter - my gaming groups' very own Mardannon Sector is the setting instead.)

I got more than enough, and better from reading Eisenhorn and Ravenor. Certainly more efficient than collecting clippings, or buying those stupid codices for the wargame.

But I'd get more out of DH if it actually bore any resemblance to the material it claims to be inspired by (yet isn't).

Quote from: BlackhandThere's literally TONS of material on the Inquisition, but get a little creativity and MAKE SOMETHING UP!  The galaxy is huge and teeming with thousands of Inquisitors who may or may not be aware of one another and each other's plots.  Try your imagination, or go back to your D&D table.

Don't play D&D, thanks. Haven't for about twelve years. Nice try, though.

Quote from: BalbinusThe thing that really fucks me off with Dark Heresy, I mean seriously fucks me off, is that I've agreed pretty much entirely with Erik Boille's post-release analysis of where it goes wrong at the conceptual level.

I never agree with Erik, sadly this time the fucker's right.  The game should have been pitched to let you play 40k games, instead it's pitched to let you play in the 40k universe.  Those are very different things.

So you're saying it should have allowed us to play Warhammer 40,000?

They already make that game and you didn't have to wait 20 years to play it.

@ Kiero - there's no such thing as 2nd Edition Rogue Trader, k?  Also, if you owned the codices you'd know a lot more about it than you think you do.  Try Codex: Daemonhunters, circa 2003 or Witchhunters from '04.  Take time out from your hobby of making pointless uninformed posts to devote more time to your hobby of playing whatever game that you think is wank that you are playing now.

Also, each BL author has his own view of the 40k universe and that's ok...each depiction is correct in its own way.  The Imperium really is that big and diverse.

The only way you'd get Kiero back to a DnD table would be at gunpoint.

Quote from: BlackhandSo you're saying it should have allowed us to play Warhammer 40,000?

They already make that game and you didn't have to wait 20 years to play it.

@ Kiero - there's no such thing as 2nd Edition Rogue Trader, k?  Also, if you owned the codices you'd know a lot more about it than you think you do.  Try Codex: Daemonhunters, circa 2003 or Witchhunters from '04.

Well, obviously they didn't know the line would get cancelled, so it's not really their fault we have a game which doesn't cover what everyone hoped for.  Had things gone to plan, we would have had a marines rpg and we would have had a rogue trader rpg.

My point was more to the power level, the power level in the game follows the WFRP model, but not the 40k source material IMO.  I think it's quixotic to make a licenced game in which you play characters so far below the abilities of those in the licenced setting.  I'd make the same criticism of Star Wars d20as was if you're familiar with that.

To clarify on a related point, my main interest is in whether it's a good game in its own right, I don't follow 40k otherwise so how faithful or not it is is ultimately of rather academic concern to me, though I think more fidelity might have equated to more success.

To answer your question, I think they should have allowed us to play on an rpg basis characters that would fit into 40k without looking too odd, and then release a gritty and low powered version later as a supplement were the demand to be there.  40k ain't an rpg, so it doesn't fill the niche a 40k rpg is intended to fill.

Quote from: Blackhand@ Kiero - there's no such thing as 2nd Edition Rogue Trader, k?  Also, if you owned the codices you'd know a lot more about it than you think you do.  Try Codex: Daemonhunters, circa 2003 or Witchhunters from '04.  Take time out from your hobby of making pointless uinformed posts to devote more time to your hobby of playing whatever game that you think is wank that you are playing now.

You're mistaking me for someone who really gives a flying fuck what pap they printed in some modules for a game I have no desire to play.

Quote from: BlackhandAlso, each BL author has his own view of the 40k universe and that's ok...each depiction is correct in its own way.  The Imperium really is that big and diverse.

No, most of them can't write for shit, and feature dull characters. I know because I've suffered my way through more of them than I care to think about.

Quote from: BlackhandLike Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, they targeted the game at people who are aware of and play the battle games and who are wanting to set a roleplaying game in that universe - not for roleplayers in general.  I think it's this issue that is the seed of the dissatisfaction most of you seem to be expressing.

I'm not sure, I think it's aimed at roleplayers in general more than the wargamers actually, but not quite enough so, I think it falls between the two camps a bit.

Quote from: BlackhandIn the end I think you'd get more out of Dark Heresy if you were already into 40k, period.  Yeah, it lacks some depth as far as background goes, but if you have a chest full of old material from 15+ years of GW then it's not really an issue for you - you don't even notice it and you wonder why the book is so goddamned big in the first place.  I know what a damn heavy bolter is already, I know what the Ordos are and what they do and how they go about it.  If you don't and need clarification or more background information (the Calixis Sector?  I don't even use this chapter - my gaming groups' very own Mardannon Sector is the setting instead.)

Absolutely, I think if you are already into 40k that's obviously going to help.

Most human characters in each Warhammer setting has T3 and 1 wound, which translates to 30-39 Toughness and 10-19 wounds, with little or no armor for mitigation.

That's pretty close to the source material.  That is quite apparent.

I mean, if you actually know what you're talking about.

@Kiero - I don't really collect the BL novels as you seem to, but I have quite a selection...some of them were boring and some of them were good, and some were only good if you have spent some time with the related manuals such as codeci and the rulebook.  

Just to be fair to those guys who have their names printed, name something you have published and send me a signed copy.  Then you can talk shit about their stories and I might actually give you some credit other than just laugh at your rather insipid comments about how they suck, which smack of jealousy and impotent resignation.

Quote from: BlackhandMost human characters in each Warhammer setting has T3 and 1 wound, which translates to 30-39 Toughness and 10-19 wounds, with little or no armor for mitigation.

That's pretty close to the source material.  That is quite apparent.

I mean, if you actually know what you're talking about.

Are you talking grunt troops or heroes though?

As for your last sentence, I agreed with Erik upthread, obviously I don't know what I'm talking about.

Quote from: BlackhandJust to be fair to those guys who have their names printed, name something you have published and send me a signed copy.  Then you can talk shit about their stories and I might actually give you some credit other than just your rather insipid comments about how they suck.

Name something you've written is a really weak argument, by that standard one can't come out of a movie and say it sucked unless one has released one's own movies.  Your other arguments are better, this one not so much.

Quote from: BalbinusName something you've written is a really weak argument, by that standard one can't come out of a movie and say it sucked unless one has released one's own movies.  Your other arguments are better, this one not so much.

I'm just saying if you're not a fan of the genre, and Warhammer 40,000 in particular, why keep subjecting yourself to BL novels you know you hate?

It's just that if you had formed this opinion based on what you'd read and know about Warhammer 40,000 maybe it would have been more than "they suck and have dry characters".  Most of the novels I have read would be a dry read for a non-Warhammer player, but lots of my buddies say they love the ones they've read.

As far as hero stats go, Strength and Toughness max out at 5 for space marines and 4 for normal humans.  That's 50-59 / 40-49 in game terms for Dark Heresy.  With no more than 3 wounds (30-39).  Don't forget the Instant Death rule either, which doesn't care about your wounds.

Quote from: BlackhandI'm just saying if you're not a fan of the genre, and Warhammer 40,000 in particular, why keep subjecting yourself to BL novels you know you hate?

It's just that if you had formed this opinion based on what you'd read and know about Warhammer 40,000 maybe it would have been more than "they suck and have dry characters".  Most of the novels I have read would be a dry read for a non-Warhammer player, but lots of my buddies say they love the ones they've read.

As far as hero stats go, Strength and Toughness max out at 5 for space marines and 4 for normal humans.  That's 50-59 / 40-49 in game terms for Dark Heresy.  With no more than 3 wounds (30-39).  Don't forget the Instant Death rule either, which doesn't care about your wounds.

I take your points.

If I wanted to use DH to run a rogue trader game, how would you recommend I went about adapting it?  Could I adapt it without doing a ton of work do you think?  Obviously it was never meant for that, but is it adaptable to it anyway in your view?

Quote from: Blackhand@Kiero - I don't really collect the BL novels as you seem to, but I have quite a selection...some of them were boring and some of them were good, and some were only good if you have spent some time with the related manuals such as codeci and the rulebook.

Right, yeah, because reading that garbage would make me appreciate garbage based on it so much more...oh wait, no it wouldn't, you're talking nonsense.  

Quote from: BlackhandJust to be fair to those guys who have their names printed, name something you have published and send me a signed copy.  Then you can talk shit about their stories and I might actually give you some credit other than just laugh at your rather insipid comments about how they suck, which smack of jealousy and impotent resignation.

Course. Must be that. You got it all sewn up. Balbinus debunked this particular one better than I would have.

I don't subject myself to crap I don't like, I only read Abnett. Occasionally I get the odd Mitchell book out from the library, but I won't buy them. I could quite happily forget the rest of the material produced for 40k, and indeed I do. Works for me.

@ Balbinus - Of course it is! The systems are nearly transparent.  As long as the player characters are human, there really isn't an issue.

You would need to develop career paths, but I would just swap (as the PC's master) the Inquisitor for a Rogue Trader and use the same ones printed...I mean, a Guardsman is a Guardsman, whatever shape he may take.  I'm sure I could work with a player to create a Commissar character if he wanted one, with little or no conversion work.

With a little more work, you could adapt the game to a Gorkamorka style Ork campaign, or Tau or even Eldar.  Just come up with the Career Paths and any new Skills or Talents you might want.  The codeci for the aliens in question would be indispensable for this purpose, and if available I would get copies of older edition material as well.

Space Marines would require a lot more work but are feasable.  The career paths would be easy, it's getting around the superhuman nature of the combats they can become involved in that is the issue.  In a game where all the PC's are Space Marines, even this issue comes down to just a little experimentation.

What doesn't really fly is mixing normal humans with Space Marines.  The 'norms' would have to be truly exceptional to have any hope of being something other than a groupie for the Space Marines sent to fetch data or maybe dinner.

In this respect, I understand why and am happy that Dark Heresy has a more narrow approach to roleplaying in the Imperium than some of you would like.

@ Kiero - Good thing you have friends like Balbinus that make sense when they type.  I'm glad you don't like Warhammer or Dark Heresy.

Quote from: David RSeriously, can't you take a joke or do you have to piss around threads finding things that offend you? Your political/social commentary is boring as it is and I know that certain games offend your sensibilities, but fuck it, question away and if I find anything remotely interesting about them, I'll answer.

Didn't say it offended me.  I said that I think there is something to the emotional/class tourism argument (which others have made).  So in a way, yes, I think it's a class thing, or a culture thing, anyway.  In other words, I think there was some truth to the comments that you apparently made in jest.

In any event, feel free to kill file me if that would make you feel better.  I wouldn't want you to feel like I'm forcing you to read my boring commentary or anything. :rolleyes:

Quote from: BalbinusI never agree with Erik, sadly this time the fucker's right.  The game should have been pitched to let you play 40k games, instead it's pitched to let you play in the 40k universe.  Those are very different things.

I don't think that I agree with you, Balbinus.  With 20/20 hindsight it is apparent that it would have been better to have published a more comprehensive game just because the follow-on games will never be published, but I never had a problem with the model of more focussed games with different assumed PC power levels.  Presumably Rogue Trader and especially Deathwatch would have provided rules and career paths for more powerful PCs.  I guess we may never know.

As for the question of power levels in Dark Heresy, I have approached the 40K universe primarily through playing Necromunda.  That is what bugs me about these rather myopic ideas of what the 40K universe is.  Some people look to some of the novels and want a game of Space Marine ULTRAVIOLENCE or über-powerful Inquisitors.  Others, myself included, see the potential in a game for gritty, lower-power action akin to the scale of Necromunda.

It is a real shame that we will probably never know if the follow on games would have given you everything for your ULTRAVIOLENCE needs.  I just find it strange that some people are so attached to their version of 40K that there is no room for any others.


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianI just find it strange that some people are so attached to their version of 40K that there is no room for any others.

Also it is strange that some people don't realize that whatever you can imagine can be the 40k setting.  Narrowness of focus doesn't equate with restricting game opportunities, within the context of the focus.

It's like bitching the new D&D 4e won't have laserguns or giant robot assault suits.  It's irrelevant and silly.

Quote from: Blackhand@ I mean, a Guardsman is a Guardsman, whatever shape he may take.  I'm sure I could work with a player to create a Commissar character if he wanted one, with little or no conversion work.

With a little more work, you could adapt the game to a Gorkamorka style Ork campaign, or Tau or even Eldar.  Just come up with the Career Paths and any new Skills or Talents you might want.  The codeci for the aliens in question would be indispensable for this purpose, and if available I would get copies of older edition material as well.
.

And.....


You're wrong.

First of all, I doubt any Commisar, a graduate of the Schola Progenium, that is an orphan raised to be a soldier, would ever be so pitifully trained as the common 'trooper' that you start as. Unlike many games, its fucking awful to try and upgrade your character to 'higher default' starting levels, say a Commisar...

While certainly one could cobble together an Eldar simply by stealing the "elf" traits from WHFRP you are absolutely assraped in the fact that there is no support for, say, shuriken catapults, aspect shrine careers (guardsman my ass...) or other things that make an Eldar an Eldar, and not a human with funny ears.

Its worse with the Tau. While the nominally fall into 'human ranges' at the table top, we know thier stats are likely to be radically different, and more to the point, their castes and technology are utterly incompatable with what is in the book... to the point where you'd have to write the equivilent of 1/4 of the character creation system to do them justice (much, I should point out, like the eldar...)... their careers simply do not, and should not, match up.

Now: a more wide open... and more importantly higher skilled (you keep thinking low powered complaints are tied strictly to the attributes...a strawman, as no one has claimed that) character creation system could have been made even keeping it roughly cross compatable with the old fantasy iteration of the game simply by removing premade career paths and applying a more open method of buying the skills/talents necessary to create your concept charater... perhaps with guidelines on what skills and talents are commonly found (or qualify you for...) in certain careers. The resultant space savings (in pages and writing time) could have then been used to add fucking xenos... inquisitors certainly are likely to be found talking to or investigating xenos of all types, and the Tau and Eldar were pretty quick to show up in...

....wait for it...


...wait for it...


INQUISITOR!

That's right, the OTHER game about playing fucking inquistors and their retinues.  

Wow. Imagine that.

Sorry Erik- but this is actually WH40k (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/16891.html)

In Warhammer 40k, if you're a human (even a Space Marine) you're fucked.

Quote from: KrakaJakSorry Erik- but this is actually WH40k (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/usermovies/16891.html)

In Warhammer 40k, if you're a human (even a Space Marine) you're fucked.

People (and I include the minigame's designers in this) have a tendency to forget that Space Marines are that bulked out because they have to be.

Quote from: SpikeAnd.....


You're wrong.

I can tell you didn't read my post and I haven't bothered to repeat what you have written.

YOU are still thinking that you should have a higher power level.  You should not.

If you MUST have more power, just give everyone +10 to all rolls for Characteristics and VOILA FUCKING PRESTO you have a guardsman hero.  In Warhammer, +1 to a stat is a BIG FUCKING DEAL, and that's all a Commissar gets in most cases.  Since you can't do math, +1 in Warhammer = +10 in Dark Heresy.  Making a career path isn't as hard as you might think, but then I can tell your brain is hurting from the strain it took to write all those fiddly little words in your post.

As far as the aliens go, I said it would require work, but what the fuck are you talking about no support? I actually have tons of manuals detailing statistics and effects for every Eldar / Tau / Ork / Zoat / Tyranid Bio Construct and Necron weapon known to the Imperium and it wouldn't be hard to convert them.  Shuriken Catapult = Pretty much same stats as a bolter, S4 AP5 Range 24" (2nd Ed) OR Range 12" (3rd Ed) with either Sustained Fire or Assault 2 depending on which of those editions tickle your fancy.  Fiddle with the range / shots of a bolter in Dark Heresy and you have your fucking Shurikat.  Also, if you had bothered to read before you ran your mouth you'll see I had noted you'd be working on Career Paths and Skills for those races, but you COULD DO IT IF YOU FUCKING WANTED TO.  THERES EVEN PRINTED SHIT YOU COULD BUY SO YOU COULD DO IT RIGHT.  I FEEL I MUST TYPE IN CAPS HERE SO THAT YOU WILL BE ABLE TO REGISTER THIS EMPHASIS.

Way to think outside the box, I'm glad you won't be playing Dark Heresy after they quit publishing material.

Lets be honest, Inquisitor is the lamest and most overly complex of all GW games, and I am a die-hard supporter of GW.  It's just that it sucks, not the concept.  The books are great products.  However, the game wasn't streamlined enough to be playable by a large club, which is presumably what GW games are for.  Also, there was no balancing system other than the arbitrary 'ready reckoner'.  I believe it would have had more success if the system wasn't as complex, because it really didn't need to be.  The large models was the draw for that, but you could play it with regular Warhammer 40,000 minis.

I'm going to touch on Inquisitor for a minute.

I'm pretty sure I was the only person that bought that NON-game. There is no character creation and no play balance. It's not an RPG, and it's not a strategy game...it is actually absolutely nothing.

Inquisitor is incomplete. Games Workshop sold me air, printed between two pages. It's not even abstract, there are no rules and there is NO GAME in there. Some may say they took the golden rule a little too far. They in fact sold you a big book for a game you could supposedly play with their big mini's, but when you open it up the book says- "YOU make a fucking game out of this, we got your money bitch!!!"

Anybody that has played a "good game" of inquisitor has a GM who should be a game designer.

Quote from: KrakaJakI'm going to touch on Inquisitor for a minute.

I'm pretty sure I was the only person that bought that NON-game. There is no character creation and no play balance. It's not an RPG, and it's not a strategy game...it is actually absolutely nothing.

Inquisitor is incomplete. Games Workshop sold me air, printed between two pages. It's not even abstract, there are no rules and there is NO GAME in there. Some may say they took the golden rule a little too far. They in fact sold you a big book for a game you could supposedly play with their big mini's, but when you open it up the book says- "YOU make a fucking game out of this, we got your money bitch!!!"

Anybody that has played a "good game" of inquisitor has a GM who should be a game designer.

I think people mention Inquisitor because it was either an 'abstract' game or 'superdetailed' and that somehow speaking of being 'abstract' or 'superdetailed' in and of itself makes them cool, because they obviously have played lots of Inquisitor and can prove it by talking about it.  It's like running up to a Grindcore Metalhead and saying 'Yeah I know what metal is all about man back in the day I used to jam to Aerosmith!'

The reality is that Inquisitor sucks and nobody talks about it anymore for the shame.

Some of the stuff in it was good, however, and set the tone of what was to come by fleshing out sections of the Inquisition that were never explored before.  Not one of these things I'm referring to had anything to do with the actual gameplay.

Quote from: BlackhandSome of the stuff in it was good, however, and set the tone of what was to come by fleshing out sections of the Inquisition that were never explored before.  Not one of these things I'm referring to had anything to do with the actual gameplay.

Agreed on all accounts,.

Quote from: John MorrowDidn't say it offended me.  I said that I think there is something to the emotional/class tourism argument (which others have made).  So in a way, yes, I think it's a class thing, or a culture thing, anyway.  In other words, I think there was some truth to the comments that you apparently made in jest.

In any event, feel free to kill file me if that would make you feel better.  I wouldn't want you to feel like I'm forcing you to read my boring commentary or anything. :rolleyes:

I apologize John. I get your point. My comments were unnecessarily hostile and unfair.

Not to derail the thread any further but I just have to say...all your 40K novels suck :evillaugh: but apparently so does my Rogue Trader :(

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BalbinusThe thing that really fucks me off with Dark Heresy, I mean seriously fucks me off, is that I've agreed pretty much entirely with Erik Boille's post-release analysis of where it goes wrong at the conceptual level.

Yes, well, I fucking called it.

What hacks me off is that I've been going on about this for years, and the dumb fuckers wouldn't listen.

Well good work geniuses - you wasted the 40k licence.

Quote from: BlackhandIt's like bitching the new D&D 4e won't have laserguns or giant robot assault suits.  It's irrelevant and silly.

It might. D20 did.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianIt is a real shame that we will probably never know if the follow on games would have given you everything for your ULTRAVIOLENCE needs.  I just find it strange that some people are so attached to their version of 40K that there is no room for any others.


TGA

I don't play ultraviolence, I'm talking about what I think would be more successful and popular, not what I personally would be interested in.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYes, well, I fucking called it.

What hacks me off is that I've been going on about this for years, and the dumb fuckers wouldn't listen.

Well good work geniuses - you wasted the 40k licence.

At times like this I recommend gloating, it doesn't improve the game, but one doesn't get enough opportunities in life to gloat so grab them while you can.

So it's more important that Erik like Dark Heresy than the actual fans of Warhammer 40,000 that it's targeted at?

Say what you like, I don't think it's targeted at either the D&D crowd or the players of 'indy' games a lot of you guys seem to think are just THA SHAT.

Everyone I know, in my entire gaming clique, loves Dark Heresy.  Just don't make every encounter a combat encounter if you want your players to actually investigate anything.

Oh, and Erik knows absolutely DICK about the subject matter by claiming BI have wasted the 40k license.  I'm glad it wasn't wasted pandering to people like you, but I'll bet you're one of those people who liked Inquisitor.  I mean, I bought it of course, but I can see you liking it - of course never playing it.

Quote from: BalbinusI don't play ultraviolence, I'm talking about what I think would be more successful and popular, not what I personally would be interested in.

I suppose that my point is that with two other games in the series, one of which was specifically to be focussed on Space Marines, it seems a reasonable strategy to publish the low-power, gritty version as the first one and then crank the power level to 11 with the later games.  It wouldn't make much sense to me to publish the over the top spattergore stuff first.

If anyone wasted the 40K license for RPGs, it was the ones who killed the project after only one game, IMO.


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianI suppose that my point is that with two other games in the series, one of which was specifically to be focussed on Space Marines, it seems a reasonable strategy to publish the low-power, gritty version as the first one and then crank the power level to 11 with the later games.  It wouldn't make much sense to me to publish the over the top spattergore stuff first.

If anyone wasted the 40K license for RPGs, it was the ones who killed the project after only one game, IMO.


TGA

Indeed. It's mentioned a few times that once characters in DH reach a certain power level they are more properly dealt with in "other" W40K RPGs - presumably Deathwatch and Rogue Trader.

Quote from: The Good AssyrianIf anyone wasted the 40K license for RPGs, it was the ones who killed the project after only one game, IMO.

GW wasted their own license?  Wait, no.  Is that possible?

No.

They own Black Industries, Black Library and Black Flame.  It belongs to GW.  Same as Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 and everything ever made with those licenses.  They even own Dawn of War and the upcoming Warhammer Online, and can terminate either project at will and without any kind of notice or explanation.

Oh wait, they don't make RPG's.  So we should count ourselves lucky we got what we did.

The only thing they don't own is Lord of the Rings.  They have a license for that.

Quote from: BlackhandGW wasted their own license?  Wait, no.  Is that possible?

*shrug* I've seen plenty of companies make bad decisions and damage their own properties.  I think that GW did waste the potential for the 40K license for RPGs when they canceled the follow-on games.


TGA

They canned Marc Gascoigne.  That killed Black Industries and pulled it back into Black Library, where Marc worked for years and years before Black Industries was even conceived.

However, it might or might not kill the 40k RPG.  I wouldn't worry about it either way, as Warhammer is still around.

Quote from: BlackhandLets be honest, Inquisitor is the lamest and most overly complex of all GW games, and I am a die-hard supporter of GW.  It's just that it sucks, not the concept.  The books are great products.  However, the game wasn't streamlined enough to be playable by a large club, which is presumably what GW games are for.  Also, there was no balancing system other than the arbitrary 'ready reckoner'.  I believe it would have had more success if the system wasn't as complex, because it really didn't need to be.  The large models was the draw for that, but you could play it with regular Warhammer 40,000 minis.

Nonsense, if you lack the capacity to use it as it was intended the fault is yours not the designers.  It is what it is.  A very specific type of wargame that predates roleplaying by at least twenty years.  An open and flexible game about finding out what would happen in various circumstances rather than a rigid and dull point system.  It is very outside the current vogue of game design thinking.  But it is a very good and entertaining game which a fair number of people actually enjoy.

It wasn't a good background book.  Nor was it intended to be.  It didn't have rules for trade and commerce in the 40k universe, nor should it have.  It didn't have a detailed set of character creation rules that prevented people from playing whatever they want to either.

Quote from: David JohansenNonsense, if you lack the capacity to use it as it was intended the fault is yours not the designers.  It is what it is.  A very specific type of wargame that predates roleplaying by at least twenty years.  An open and flexible game about finding out what would happen in various circumstances rather than a rigid and dull point system.  It is very outside the current vogue of game design thinking.  But it is a very good and entertaining game which a fair number of people actually enjoy.

It wasn't a good background book.  Nor was it intended to be.  It didn't have rules for trade and commerce in the 40k universe, nor should it have.  It didn't have a detailed set of character creation rules that prevented people from playing whatever they want to either.

Your description of the game makes it very clear you have no idea what you're talking about.

For the record, Wargames predate Roleplaying games by about 400 years, give or take a few (but only just).

This game was made by GW to try something NEW.  If you had kept up with it rather than just heard about it or bought it and read it you'd know something more about it.

It was broken, didnt work smoothly and no one liked it.  That's why even today, it languishes in a forgotten part of Specialist Games.  It's THE MOST reviled thing in the GW family and only noted for it's background contributions.

I thought the Bolt Thrower albums were the most reviled thing GW ever did.

Oh well.  I have both and disagree with you.  This comforts me, though sharing a hobby with you is still disturbing.

I'm talking about the narrative skirmish wargames in 54mm pioneered by Charles Grant and Bruce McQuarrie incidentally.  Not wargames in general.

Quote from: BlackhandSo it's more important that Erik like Dark Heresy than the actual fans of Warhammer 40,000 that it's targeted at?

While I don't think that Dark Heresy should have tried to duplicate D&D or appeal to the "indy" game crowd, I do think that targeting it to just the WH40K fan base is silly, too.  What happens when you market anything to a narrow existing fan base is that an even smaller number of people buy and use it.

The goal for a game like Dark Heresy should be to reach out to traditional role-players, not only so that they buy the role-playing books but also to interest them in GW products, in general.

If GW wanted to draw me into buying their stuff (I'm speaking for myself here, as an example, though I think this addresses many of the things that keep other people from buying and playing GW games), they could release:

• A Necromunda RPG playable in one book like the classic WFRP RPG.  Make sure that the combat system is similar enough to the war game rules that it can act as a gateway system to the war games.
• A Necromunda boxed game like the original, with plastic bulkheads and cardboard building components but with pre-painted plastic gangs.  Include a pamphlet on repainting part or all of the miniatures using Citadel paints to customize them.  This would essentially be the same as the original boxed game except with pre-painted miniatures.
  
• Pre-painted Necromunda expansion gangs with customizable weaponry and accessory sprues and, again, a guide to repainting the miniatures.  This requires a small mount of hobbyist skill to attach the weapons to the miniatures.  Maybe a small bottle of appropriate glue would be included and the weapons could be molded out of black plastic so they don't necessarily have to be painted.  To boost sales of the boxes, they could include a random collection of, say, 12 out of 24 in a box, to encourage people to buy multiple boxes even if they don't have different rarity levels.  This would correspond to the boxed gang sets that GW sold/sells for the game.
• Specialty plastic or metal unpainted Necromunda miniatures for those who want special figures in their gang.  These would require the player to go that level and actually assemble and paint the miniature like they currently have to, but they could focus their attention on those specialty miniatures instead of having to paint an entire gang just to play.  Maybe make some of the unusual character types like Spyrers only available in this form.  This would correspond to similar blister packs that they sell now and appeal to the traditionalist.
• Sell plastic, probably pre-painted, scenery components that work like what's included in the original game but are a little classier than the cardboard components.  This could also be used by the WH40K players.

This suggestion is meant to draw in that segment of the role-playing hobby (but also people outside of the hobby) for whom small unit skirmish games are more appealing (because of their more limited scope) while addressing the main reason why they don't play, that it takes a lot of time that a lot of people don't have to paint the miniatures in order to play the game.  But it also would turn the small unit skirmish games into gateway games that would allow people to get into the modeling component of the hobby, too.  

There is nothing stopping a person from repainting a pre-painted miniature and, in fact, there are people who do repaint their own miniatures.  If you don't want the default paint scheme, treat it like primer but having the miniatures being pre-painted would be key for drawing in people with limited time.  Keeping some miniatures in the line that require assembly and painting would help keep the game appealing to the modeling players who want to feel elite, because it would give them access to miniatures that those who just want to use the pre-painted miniatures don't have access to.  And it leaves the main battle wargames alone.  What it does it turn the skirmish games into gateway games for beginners and casual gamers and so long as they can keep the margins high, it shouldn't matter to GW whether a player is buying a $40 box of unpainted Orlocks or a $40 box of pre-painted Orlocks.  And with a collectable angle, people might buy even more.

If that works with Necromunda, they could do the same thing with Mordheim and the Warhammer FRP.  It's no mistake that the role-players here keep talking about Necromunda and Mordheim as their favorite games.  Those games are essentially the middle ground between war game and RPG.  And the scope of both of those games is small enough that they could be handled in a single RPG book (though not excluding the possibility of expansion books).

Yes, maybe you don't want people who don't even have time to assemble and prime their miniatures playing at your table but I bet GW would like to be able to sell to them.  If their goal is to sell more miniatures, then introducing pre-painted miniatures is the way to do it.  Because I don't know about anyone else but the reason why I stopped buying miniatures is that I never have the time to paint them.  I might however, have the time to spend some time repainting some faces or bandanas or shirts or whatever to customize a pre-painted gang.  I might also have time to paint a single Spyrer, gang leader, or small custom gang over time.  So making the pre-painted miniatures re-paintable would be key here.

Quote from: John MorrowThis suggestion is meant to draw in that segment of the role-playing hobby (but also people outside of the hobby) for whom small unit skirmish games are more appealing (because of their more limited scope) while addressing the main reason why they don't play, that it takes a lot of time that a lot of people don't have to paint the miniatures in order to play the game.  But it also would turn the small unit skirmish games into gateway games that would allow people to get into the modeling component of the hobby, too.

Uh... you do realise that you can just play with unpainted minis, right?

Quote from: David JohansenI thought the Bolt Thrower albums were the most reviled thing GW ever did.

Three points:

1: Games Workshop never officially endorsed Bolt Thrower, so far as I am aware.

2: I'm not aware of GW fans being especially hostile towards Bolt Thrower.

3: Bolt Thrower are awesome.

EDIT TO CORRECT: Apparently GW struck a deal with Bolt Thrower to allow them to use GW's artwork on an album cover, and were interested in a closer collaboration, but not much came for it.

I would still like answers to points 2 and 3 though.

Quote from: WarthurUh... you do realise that you can just play with unpainted minis, right?

And it looks horrible, in my opinion.  I'd rather use pawns at that point (which is what my group generally does for role-playing combats).

GW currently sells their Necromunda gangs at $40 for a box of 8 figures and other companies are selling a comparable number of pre-painted miniatures with rules and a die at half that price.  I find it difficult to believe that GW couldn't continue to sell Necromunda gangs, pre-painted and of acceptable quality and materials for repainting, at $40 a box or maybe a bit more while maintaining a quite healthy profit margin.

Quote from: BlackhandYOU are still thinking that you should have a higher power level.  You should not.

Defend your fucking postion.  Starting characters are ass suckers who can't even figure out how to work a bolt pistol competently. In fact, it would take at least a thousand (if not two or three thousand) xp as written to be able to use most of the 'common' weapons in the game.  And that is as true of the Guardsman as the Scum.  

Quote from: BlackhandIf you MUST have more power, just give everyone +10 to all rolls for Characteristics and VOILA FUCKING PRESTO you have a guardsman hero.  In Warhammer, +1 to a stat is a BIG FUCKING DEAL, and that's all a Commissar gets in most cases.  Since you can't do math, +1 in Warhammer = +10 in Dark Heresy.  Making a career path isn't as hard as you might think, but then I can tell your brain is hurting from the strain it took to write all those fiddly little words in your post.

.

See above: power in this game comes from skills and ability, and starting characters are barely competent to tie their fucking shoes. A +10 to the roll is a bandade on a geyser at that point.

Quote from: Warthur3: Bolt Thrower are awesome.

Quoted for awesome truth. \m/

:haw:

To the best of my recolection GW had its own record company for a little while in the late eighties.  They included a Bolt Thrower flexi disk in White Dwarf once that was supposedly very bad.

My collection doesn't go back that far anymore, but I'll see if I can find it in White Dwarf 300's retrospective.

You sure that wasn't Sabbat? They apparently did a song for White Dwarf once.

And as far as I'm aware Bolt Thrower were never signed to GW's record company - they were on Earache Records. The bands which were on that label - D-Rok, Wraith and the like - basically sank like stones, as far as I can tell.

Could do, I'd gone into my anything but GW and T$R phase at that point.  The only name I could recollect was Bolt Thrower.

Quote from: David JohansenI thought the Bolt Thrower albums were the most reviled thing GW ever did.

Bolt Thrower fucking RAWQ.  I have all their albums.  They went from Vinyl Solution to Earache.  GW didn't really have much to do with them since only AC liked metal, apparently.  However, even recent albums have GW artwork.

Most GW fans hate them, but most of them listen to Coldplay.  All non-GW metalheads I know bow down to that which is Bolt Thrower, and you should too David Johansen.

@ John Morrow - They will NEVER do prepaints.  They MUST NEVER do prepaints.  You're wrong, because we want cool people at the table - however we do NOT WANT PREPAINTS.  You must be a hobbyist to understand this.  If this happened there would be rioting in Nottingham, bitches!!  NEVER!

@ Spike - Here's my defense - It's equal to the game it's based on.  You know that Dark Heresy derived from Warhammer 40,000 right?  If you actually played Dark Heresy there are a ton of modifiers to attack, so many that it's a little easy to hit people...+10? What about the +30 that is easy to get at least once every combat.  MY FUCKING POSITION?!  Why don't you get someone to run the game who actually can.  

Oh, and I can tell you're a munchkin player.  Why don't you just have your players add +10 to all starting characteristics?  The progression from Warhammer 40,000 is maybe +1 or +2, which translates to +10 or +20 in Dark Heresy.  This is the same system that Warhammer Fantasy Battle / Roleplay uses and this is what we (I refer to we who know what the fuck we're talking about) expected.  Room to advance.
 

Quote from: Blackhand@ John Morrow - They will NEVER do prepaints.  They MUST NEVER do prepaints.  You're wrong, because we want cool people at the table - however we do NOT WANT PREPAINTS.  You must be a hobbyist to understand this.  If this happened
there would be rioting in Nottingham, bitches!!  NEVER!

Are pre-paints really worse than people playing with unpainted or primed figures, a practice that you, yourself, mentioned and another person mentioned as a solution for those who don't have time to paint?  Yes, I understand why the hobbyists don't like pre-painted miniatures, which is why my suggestion (A) said that the army battle games should be left as-is with unpainted miniatures and the pre-painted miniatures suggestion was for the skirmish games (Necromunda and Mordheim) only (which, based on sales and the attention that GW gives them, are not being supported by the hobbyists the same way that the support the main battle games are, anyway), (B) suggested that there should be some miniatures that should still only come unpainted to reward the hobbyists who do want to play those games, and (C) stressed repainting the pre-painted miniatures (repainting figures is something that hobbyists already do).  If they don't do this, then GW's market will only ever be the hardcore hobbyist or kid who has ton's of free time on their hands to to paint toy soldiers.  I understand that the hobbyists want to feel special for the extra work that they put into the hobby and my suggestion specifically took that into account.  If GW wants to grow their fan base, they need to make the hobby accessible to people with less free time than the hardcore hobbyist and since the purpose of using painted miniatures is that they look cool, using pre-painted miniatures is the way to do that.  And if it's really necessary, GW could still demand that tournament and league play be done with repainted or custom miniatures, not pre-paints.  The casual player won't care but it might give some casual players the incentive to become a hobbyist.  And the bottom line is that it would sell more miniatures for GW which is, as you pointed out, the goal of the company.  GW's officers and shareholders probably don't want to limit their market to the "cool people" you talk about.

By the way, I seem to remember that the hardcore hobbyists were shocked, SHOCKED!, when GW first started selling plastic miniatures instead of metal.  And let's not forget that Necromunda and Mordheim included plastic miniatures and preprinted cardboard scenery in order to make it more accessible to beginners as a place to start in the hobby.

(Some edits since the original posting throughout.)

It would seriously dilute the hobby.

It would deflate my elitist demeanor.  I would no longer gloat in the superiority of my geek-hobby compared to RPGr's and TCGr's.  Oh and the Prepainted Miniature gamers.

It's just a different thing man.  

The time spent meticulously crafting your army serves a purpose you might not understand.  You put a bit of your soul into it.  After that, it's yours.  These are your soldiers.  And they will fight to the death for you...or at least until it looks like you're going to lose.

It's not the same thing with prepaints.  They are soulless.

Even unpainted minis have soul, because you built them how you wanted them.

For those of us who truly love the hobby and the game, no soul is the death of our game.

We will fight tooth and nail to prevent prepaints in a GW game, but I'll be honest that I'm not worried about this at all.

GW will never make prepaints as that completely invalidates the core of their business.  They aren't selling prepainted models.  They aren't even selling a game, which is why they really give less a fuck about Dark Heresy.

They sell a hobby.  That's the plastic men, the paints, the tools to cut the men and file down the mold lines, putty to sculpt your own...these are the heart of our hobby, not the game.  That's why edition does not matter.  Rogue Trader was 20 years ago.  2nd Edition was 15 years ago.  It doesn't matter.

Oh and prepaints all look the same - like dogshit.

Quote from: BlackhandGW will never make prepaints as that completely invalidates the core of their business.  They aren't selling prepainted models.  They aren't even selling a game, which is why they really give less a fuck about Dark Heresy.

They sell a hobby.  That's the plastic men, the paints, the tools to cut the men and file down the mold lines, putty to sculpt your own...these are the heart of our hobby, not the game.  That's why edition does not matter.  Rogue Trader was 20 years ago.  2nd Edition was 15 years ago.  It doesn't matter.

Since "selling the hobby" seems to be bleeding money for them right now, maybe its time they made a change, no?

Or are they adopting the Kevin Seimbeida school of management - "Party like it's 1985!" ???

Quote from: jgantsSince "selling the hobby" seems to be bleeding money for them right now, maybe its time they made a change, no?

Or are they adopting the Kevin Seimbeida school of management - "Party like it's 1985!" ???

They closed BI because it really did cost more than it was making.  Even with the sellouts.  Strange no?

GW is making changes right now.  In fact, The Warseers (http://www.warseer.com) bitch constantly about the constant changes.  A new CEO has been named and the whole thing is changing.

It's just that it doesn't really include roleplayers.  It's a wargames company.

Quote from: BlackhandThey closed BI because it really did cost more than it was making.  Even with the sellouts.  Strange no?

do you have any proof of this particular claim?

RPGPundit

According to the Retrospective on page 110 of White Dwarf 300 the flexidisc was indeed in issue 95 by Sabbat.  I bow to your supperior geek fu if not taste in games.

Anyhow, I've always thought GW was shooting itself in the foot on the pre-paint thing by not having silent auctions of painted collections and armies that people are selling in their stores.  I'd guess the stores would probably sell the armies in the display cases to anyone who offered them three of the right body parts (say an arm a leg and a kidney) but an auction system would give them a cut from after market sales, that would compound with the fact that most hobbists would just spend the take and more in store sooner or later.  Last and best, the crappy wrecked army someone brings in would sell for pocket change broadening their customer base into the land of people who can't afford GW products.  And there you go, world wide access to pre-painted models at affordable prices.  A nice boost for the guy who wants to change armies.  A solid incentive to finish painting an army before selling it.

I don't think BI was losing money either.  It wasn't making as much money as the novels.  You pay one writer and a cover artist for a novel.  It doesn't need playtesting, is printed on cheap paper, and sells at a higher ratio of production cost to cover price.  GW is struggling financial and trying to increase its profits to the point where they break even.  They're trimming the fat anywhere they think can.

Personally I think they should keep the book in print and publish fan generated material in White Dwarf and collect it in Annuals or Compendiums.  But they won't.  They've given up on putting game support in the magazine. (boy if you think cancelling Dark Heresy doesn't make any sense...)

At least they could add it to specialist games.

Quote from: BlackhandIt would deflate my elitist demeanor.  I would no longer gloat in the superiority of my geek-hobby compared to RPGr's and TCGr's.  Oh and the Prepainted Miniature gamers.

You could still gloat at the people who are pre-painted miniature gamers.  You are doing it now.

Quote from: BlackhandThe time spent meticulously crafting your army serves a purpose you might not understand.  You put a bit of your soul into it.  After that, it's yours.  These are your soldiers.  And they will fight to the death for you...or at least until it looks like you're going to lose.

I understand that element, and you'll notice that I explicitly excluded the army games from my proposal for exactly that reason.  I specifically mentioned the skirmish games which are already poorly supported by the elitists, which is why they are back-burner games rather than flagship products.

Quote from: BlackhandIt's not the same thing with prepaints.  They are soulless.

I fully understand what you are talking about, which is why I also talked about helping people customize pre-painted miniatures and about continuing to make the traiditional type of miniature available.  I also talked about making certain types of units only available the traditional way, so you could make a Spyrer or Redemptionist gang to field and be sure that you won't go up against a similar miniature or gang in pre-painted version.  You do realize that you could paint over the pre-painting, right?  

Quote from: BlackhandEven unpainted minis have soul, because you built them how you wanted them.

I don't know about that.  My assembled and primed miniatures seem pretty soulless and downright ugly to me, which is why I don't use them.  Consider the pre-painting a primer layer that looks a lot nicer than a coat of white, gray, or red if that makes it easier for you to deal with.

Quote from: BlackhandFor those of us who truly love the hobby and the game, no soul is the death of our game.

Then don't play with people who use pre-painted miniatures.  That was part of my proposal, too.  GW could demand that even the pre-painted miniatures be repainted or otherwise customized before they are allowed in official league or tournament play.  But marketing the game to a small and obsessive group of hobbyists like yourself could also be the death of the game or at least prevent the hobby from growing.  And GW has a responsibility to their shareholders to increase profits and market, not keep a bunch of fanatics who can't bear the thought of playing with a bunch of pre-painted miniatures on the table.  I suspect that most miniatures that get bought never get painted and it's been my experience that people who don't get around to painting miniatures stop buying them.  You might think the hobby is better off without them but I suspect that GW would be happy to still get their money.  Just how much Necromunda and Mordheim stuff is GW selling right now?

Quote from: BlackhandWe will fight tooth and nail to prevent prepaints in a GW game, but I'll be honest that I'm not worried about this at all.

Would you be opposed to GW adding pre-painted miniatures to an existing game or converting an existing game over to pre-painted miniatures or are you opposed to GW selling any sort of pre-painted miniatures even if it is for an entirely new game?  

Quote from: BlackhandGW will never make prepaints as that completely invalidates the core of their business.  They aren't selling prepainted models.  They aren't even selling a game, which is why they really give less a fuck about Dark Heresy.

They sell a hobby.  That's the plastic men, the paints, the tools to cut the men and file down the mold lines, putty to sculpt your own...these are the heart of our hobby, not the game.  That's why edition does not matter.  Rogue Trader was 20 years ago.  2nd Edition was 15 years ago.  It doesn't matter.

They are selling miniatures, not a lifestyle.  Ultimately, they don't care whether you think your army has a soul or not.  What they care about is whether you buy their miniatures or not.  And as the technology of pre-painting increases, I suspect they are going to keep an eye on how games like this (http://entertainment.upperdeck.com/wowmini/en/) sell.  Like I said, there was a lot of controversy when GW first started making their miniatures in plastic and they had to make quality assurance to people and so on to keep them happy.  Now nobody cares about the plastic miniatures.  

Just because GW sells figures pre-painted doesn't meant that they couldn't support the hobbyists, just like because toy train companies sell their train cars pre-painted doesn't mean that their isn't a hobbyist angle to toy trains or that the hobbyists don't have a lot of fun building scenery and detailing their pre-painted train cars.  There is also a lively market directed toward hobbyists of detailing kits for otherwise simple models.  Just because a company sells a model of an F-14 molded in the right shade of gray plastic and with decals does not mean that people don't detail and paint their models.  

Basically, I can understand why you think your crafted miniatures are superior to pre-painted miniatures.  I agree with that.  What I can't understand is your hostility toward their being available to non-hobbyists who don't have the time to paint a gang before playing and who might have an interest in the game, even if it's not all that important to you.

Quote from: BlackhandOh and prepaints all look the same - like dogshit.

So do unpainted or primed figures, and many miniatures painted by people who aren't highly skilled can look pretty awful, too.  It takes skill and time to produce a properly assembled and painted miniature that doesn't look awful.  And there are orders of magnitude more people who don't have time or skill to produce a miniatures that looks even as good as a pre-painted miniature out there, which is why companies are selling pre-painted miniatures.

Now, so long as pre-painted miniatures don't look as good as the custom miniatures that modelers produce, I'm not sure what your problem is or why you can't bear the thought of other people playing with them.  And I'm not sure why re-tooling and re-painting pre-painted miniatures is not a viable middle-ground for the hobbyist.

In any event, I suspect that GW's decision to produce or not produce pre-painted miniatures won't depend on my asking or people like you complaining but on whether they think it will ultimately give them access to a larger market that they can compete well in and make money from than their existing business model.  And it would be somewhat ironic if you one day found GW turning their back on you as a niche the same way that they've turned their back on the role-playing niche that you look down on.

At one time I firmly believed that absolutely anyone could learn to spray, pick out a couple details and dip.  Which is how prepaints are generally done.

Having tried to teach my son, I have to say it just isn't true.

No, I don't do dipping myself.  I've experimented with it out of curiousity on some Italiari 1/32 stuff but it really didn't save me much time.  I love Italiari's 1/32 line.  Buck a figure and twice the size.

Quote from: RPGPunditdo you have any proof of this particular claim?

RPGPundit

The only way I can assume this would be true is if they intended to either continue to sell rpg books to offset startup costs (1st print run didn't meet full expenses) or if they intended to sell each book at a loss in order to sell models.

But I'd be curious to find the source on that info, too.

There are times when I wonder if cancelling it on the day it came out and leaving out all the good stuff was just a marketing ploy. They can make sure everyone grabs it now instead of later. Then in a year they can go:

"well it sold well and some fans did all the work for free and we used recycled art (Dark Heresy is 99% recycled art) so it didn't cost a lot, so here's the Space Marines book but don't expect Rogue Trader this time next year because this is all we're doing except these three books for Space Marines that we just happen to have ready to go!"

One problem I've heard from a few people in the industry is that gamers tend to wait to buy things they think they can pick up later. That's one of the reasons for the move to limited run releases.

Quote from: David JohansenAt one time I firmly believed that absolutely anyone could learn to spray, pick out a couple details and dip.  Which is how prepaints are generally done.

Having tried to teach my son, I have to say it just isn't true.

I can confirm this. My lack of skill, patience and focus know no limit.

Thus the dread of getting sucked into minis gaming.

For to lack talent is not to lack discrimination, my friends. I suck, but my minis shouldn't. --> $5 paintjob per 28mm figure. 1 platoon = 30 figures. Ka-ching!

Also, terrain. Someone's offering an awesome Stalingrad factory on ebay right now. Burn-out buildings, boiler room, the works. $950. "Or best offer" (yeah right).

They had 3 copies of Dark Heresy at the local Chapters (like Barnes & Nobles).   Lots of pages, full colour (in the same way the WotC D&D books are), and $63 ?!  :eek:

Quote from: RPGPunditdo you have any proof of this particular claim?

RPGPundit

Black Industries was axed before Dark Heresy was even released, before any profits were reported.

Yes, it's true.

In the GW Group financial interim report for the first part of 2008 (detailed report for stockholders only) is all about the Cost Reduction Program.  Tom Kirby states that this program (which includes closing stores, changes to manufacturing and changing the infrastructure of the company) will create a 69.9% gross margin that is sustainable.

Stockholders know that most of the money made by GW are (in order from most to least profit) - (Games Workshop Stores first, then independent stockists) Miniatures, Paints / Hobby Supplies, Game Manuals for Core Systems (WH40k, WHFB and LotR) followed by Specialist acts such as Fanatic and Black Industries.  Black Library consists of Black Industries and Black Flame (at least one of which is unnescessary) and these do not do nearly as much as any of these other pieces of the GW family and as such the overhead needed to run them is driving profits (and thus stock) down.

Black Industries wasn't making as much as it was costing, at least under the old infrastructure.  This is subject to change with the new corporate programs that are launching and as I said before, I wouldn't completely despair never seeing the Rogue Trader or Deathwatch published under the main GW imprint that is called Black Library.

Also take a look at the Nasdaq (GAW).  Last November was a peak, when GW group was pushing Apocalypse and the huge Battle Formations.  Lots of growth there.  February?  Dark Heresy?  Profits are WAAAY DOWN, even though it's an increase from January (Codex Orks, just a few people updating their Codeci) With no big expansion to the core games to move the models, that's when GW suffers, not when they axe a tiny imprint tasked with making a product that isn't considered to really even be worth the while.  Black Industries was a small piece of the GW family and they weren't pulling their weight.

I would add that this time it wasn't another publishing company making the RPG (Hogshead), but an in house design group that GW owns.

Any further information I'm sure you can glean from the internets on your own.

@ John - GW will never make Prepaints as it would kill the entire mission statement.  I find all your proposals completely intolerable and at odds with the hobby.  Prepaints are invariably made of a type of plastic that is inferior to GW products.  I have an idea for you, though - go play a prepaint game from another company like the one you linked.  You won't be missed.

@ David - 99% recycled art?  I wouldn't say it was that much, as I happen to know where every single piece in the book came from.  More like 50% at the very most, but if you're a GW fan you're accustomed to this and even appreciate it when you see a familiar picture in a new book.  They only print art that is no longer in books that are in print in new books.  The fact that the art is used again is also further evidence that GW owns Dark Heresy completely and I wouldn't be surprised if Fanatic started covering the GW rpgs.  

There was a lot from Blanche's =][=nquisitor sketch book.  Also =][=nquisitor itself, heck, there's one or two severed heads laying on the ground I swear came from Mordheim.  I'm not putting down recycled art.  Some pieces should be re-used lots.  The old one of the Emperor and Horus for instance.  I'd have dropped two pages of Dark Heresy text for that picture, no problem.

Actually, recycled studio art is one reason I really wonder what the book cost to produce.  Art is a big expense in rpg production.

As for the price?  It's a good twenty or thirty less than the 40k or fantasy hardback for the minis games.  Maybe the low price point in the rpg field is why the axed BI.

Actually, as I think about it, if I was doing a marines game it would be about the Marines Errant, little seen since the Rogue Trader days but still occasionally mentioned.  I'd re-think them a bit as a place where marines who manage to not fit into a traditional chapter get sent to serve.  Sort of like the Last Chancers but with a strong element of small parties of disfunctional marines from different chapters forced to work together against impossible odds.  "Brothers, this industrial world has developed heretical tech and must be pacified.  Sadly we can only spare you six.  We're sending you to one of the last loyal governers to help him hold out against the invading forces!  Go with the Emperor!"

Before I begin talking, I feel compelled to mention that I'm a total Warhammer "n00b". :p  I know only a little bit about the various Warhammer games. Anyway, I bought Dark Heresy a few days ago, and returned it to the store today. The game isn't for me. The tone of Dark Heresy feels even more hopeless than Call of Cthulhu, if that's even possible.

It's odd. I own WFRP 2e, and LOVE that game, while Dark Heresy feels like a more hopeless, highly-straightjacketed version of WFRP 2e, except "in spaaaace". :haw:

I knew going in that the premise of the game was that characters would presumably be members of an Inquisitor's retinue. But the book beats you over the fucking head about how much you're the Emperor's bitch, and if you're not, then you're a servant of "CHAOS"!!!! ZoMg, OH NOES!!11 :rolleyes:

I hated it. The first thing I wanted to do was hunt down the Emperor and fire a plasma gun up his ass. Then I'd go daemon hunting. Then.....um....kill EVERYBODY, as EVERYBODY in the fucking game is either a psychopath or a scumbag (or both), and it felt like there was no room whatsoever for basic human empathy and compassion.

At least WFRP 2e gave you some room to breathe. Not everyone in that game is assumed to be the Emperor's bitch, and the game had some light doses of black humor to offset the grittiness.

Dark Heresy takes itself Too Fucking Seriously.

I also didn't like the layout and organization. It wasn't nearly as intuitive as WFRP 2e.

The flavor text and art was interesting, but the art conveyed a tone of the setting being grotesque, dismal, and hopeless. Too hopeless for me, it seems. I'm okay with a world full of monsters and madness (like Conan's Hyboria), but Dark heresy overdoes it. Reading the book actually depressed me. I actually like a little hope in my games, ya know? In DH, there is none.

I don't know what the rest of the Warhammer 40k Universe is like, but if it's as grim and confining as this (a million worlds, yet only one god? no thanks), then I think I'll pass. At least I had multiple gods to choose from in WFRP 2e. Being straightjacketed is not my idea of fun. :(

I guess that makes me a heretic. ;)

There is no hope.  Khorne has basically won.  War without end.  Without the Dark Eldar I don't think Slannesh would be around anymore.  I don't think anyone else is allowed to enjoy sex in 40k.  It's required, it's your duty to reproduce, but some how I get the feeling that most human males ship out to fight the aliens the day after they bed their first breeding female.

Tzneech conspires and Nurgle pollutes but really the whole world is a hopeless universe of war without end.

Dark Heresy cost $49.99, same as the main rulebooks for Warhammer 40,000 and Warhammer Fantasy Battle.  I'm really not into the Lord of the Rings game, as even amongst GW fans it has sort of a 'newb' quality so I'm not sure how much that one is, but I'll guess that it's $49.99.  WFRP was also $49.99.  MSRP.

Same as every other GW hardcover for the last several years.

Doh!  Canadian dollar's par now, but GW never lowered their prices.  Dark Heresy ships through rpg channels and so the price is a good $25 cheaper here.

Hadn't even thought of that.

Quote from: Blackhand@ Spike - Here's my defense - It's equal to the game it's based on.  You know that Dark Heresy derived from Warhammer 40,000 right?  If you actually played Dark Heresy there are a ton of modifiers to attack, so many that it's a little easy to hit people...+10? What about the +30 that is easy to get at least once every combat.  MY FUCKING POSITION?!  Why don't you get someone to run the game who actually can.  

Oh, and I can tell you're a munchkin player.  Why don't you just have your players add +10 to all starting characteristics?  The progression from Warhammer 40,000 is maybe +1 or +2, which translates to +10 or +20 in Dark Heresy.  This is the same system that Warhammer Fantasy Battle / Roleplay uses and this is what we (I refer to we who know what the fuck we're talking about) expected.  Room to advance.

Reading your posts is a bit like watching a blind deaf fat kid in the throws of a PCP induced rage. Sure, it looks impressive, maybe even scary, but really, there isn't anything to worry about as its just blind flailing.

You utterly failed to grasp the point of my question. Fair enough, I expected it, just like I expect that the needless insult I started with will shut down the guttering spark you call critical facilities and you'll post stupidly emotional arguements and call everyone else noobs and GW haters and whatever else you can think of to make yourself sound more like an expert.  

Here is one hint: I GM, jackass.  I've never heard anyone complain that their GM was a munchkin. Its not the wiff factor of the dice numbers being low either, jackass.  Its that the character creation is utterly at odds with what every other part of the setting tells us the Inquision does when recruit shopping.  They don't pick up raw recruits from the Guard or PDF forces, they don't recruit gutter punks with knives (barring some extraordinary power), they don't bring on board chumps. If an Inquisitor wants Stormtroopers, he fucking gets Stormtroopers. He doesn't waste time hoping his untrained recruit survives long enough to BE a fucking stormtrooper. He doesn't hope his street punk with a knife survives long enough to be a potential Temple Assasin... he gets a god damn temple assassin.

Hell, the setting doesn't even work that way either.  CHILDREN are turned into commisars or Sororitas, or Assassins.  They don't work their way up some chain of expirence from adult with no SKILLS (not, for the third time 'attributes') or Talents. Unless you want to start play in the lord of the flies testing on board the Black ships and other recruiting grounds, it can be assumed that even those children who are the future character worthy recruits are already two and three thousand XP characters.

THAT is were the breakdown is. Not the fucking attribute numbers you are so hung up on. Its that new characters, even with four hundred XP are so pitifully underskilled that they are not suitable to survive in the 40k setting, much less be 'characters' compared to just about every other example in the source material.

Sort of like if someone released a Star Wars game where you couldn't have a Jedi or every own a starship. Sure, you might get a guy with 'the force' who could knock over a salt shaker with his mind and a guy who can FLY a starship.... for someone else.

People would probably not like that. Its not very 'Star Wars' that way.

Ditto 40k.

Hell, I haven't even addressed the problems with the Psyker powers, the Mechanicus abilities or the fact that there are no rules for tapping larger organizations, depite the fact that you can play a 'Guard Commander', a Hierophant of the Ecclesiarchy or a Gang Boss...

Never mind the traditional servants of the Inquisition...




Never thought I find someone who makes Erik Boille actually sound reasonable...

I'm glad you don't like me or Dark Heresy.

We knew that yesterday though.

Quote from: BlackhandI'm glad you don't like me ...(snip for relevance).

We knew that yesterday though.

Well, we established pretty quickly that you don't like anyone here at all, so the feeling is mutual.

Actually there are a few people here that I like and I'm pretty sure they like me.

Quit putting words in my mouth, and quit assuming you know what you're talking about.

Quote from: BlackhandActually there are a few people here that I like and I'm pretty sure they like me.

Quit putting words in my mouth, and quit assuming you know what you're talking about.

I'm sorry, did I fail to recognize your unmatched mastery of all things 40K sufficently?

I better avoid offending you, you MUST be in great shape given how much exercise you get leaping to conclusions and brow beating everyone around you...

Let me see if I can put this into perspective, bucky. Given your self description here, I have  more expirence with and knowledge of 40k than you do. I've been playing longer than you, read more books than you.  I'm just better than you as a human being, but thats hardly relevant now.

I am mildly irritated by Dark Heresy's default assumption of starting level of competence.  I think the game book is beautiful, but the game engine is a weak, even half assed, port of the Fantasy ruleset... I could do better in far less time than they took but I don't get paid to do so.

On the other hand, I find your condecending attitude and general buttfuckery to be a far worse sin, and if it weren't so amusing to watch your blind flailings and general attempts to shout everyone down to prove your nonexistant superiority, I'd probably just avoid you like I would a rotting carcass in the street.  

Luckily for you, I am bored and more than willing to egg you on just to watch you continue to windmill endlessly.  Congratulations, I just validated your existance for the day.  What, oh what, shall you do tomorrow?

Same thing I do everyday, Pinky.

Try to take over the world.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeWhoever it is, I'd pay good money to watch a cage-match between Blackhand and Erik Boielle.

I'd punch the pope to see that happen. I'd stroll through the streets of Baghdad screaming that God is not fucking great just for that thread to go down.

SRSLY.

Quote from: BlackhandGirls HATE Warhammer and the related games.

Three out of the five players at my WFRP/Dark Heresy/Hackmaster group are girls. Girls get it. Just not all of them. These bitches are murderous too. All in the name of Sigmar/The Emperor. I know you were joking, but I'm just sayin'...

Quote from: BalbinusMy point was more to the power level, the power level in the game follows the WFRP model, but not the 40k source material IMO.  I think it's quixotic to make a licenced game in which you play characters so far below the abilities of those in the licenced setting.

Necromunda and Inquisitor were also 40K and DH isn't far removed from those games' power levels. Shit, mot of my Inquisitor warband members spent more time laying on their backs like a cheap hooker than actually fighting. DH isn't nearly as bad. Still, saying it isn't true to the genre is false.

Quote from: KieroNo, most of them can't write for shit, and feature dull characters. I know because I've suffered my way through more of them than I care to think about.

Amen to that.

Quote from: David JohansenI thought the Bolt Thrower albums were the most reviled thing GW ever did.

Double fucking amen.

-=Grim=-

See, here we get a thread about having your character kill himself:-

http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4774&PN=1

with opinions expressed that they arn't even cool enough to do that properly:-

QuoteThe problem I have with killing yourself, is that people aren't very good at it. You'll definitely damage yourself, but will you mortally wound youself?

:rolleyes:

When you character even has a 70% chance of failing to kill themselves, you gotta wonder precisely what you CAN do.

Killing yourself doesn't require any rolling. A GM who forces a person trained to do so in the face of possession is being silly.

Anyway to address something someone said before, it was mentioned that the starting Guardsman isn't even up to par with a regular Imperial Guardsman (saying something like 'most guardsman characters have to spend many session just to learn basic Imperial Guardsman weapons' or something along those lines). So I rolled one up and thus beg to differ:

QuoteAverage Imperial World Guardsman (italics after 400 starting XP spent and starting cash blown on newer equipment)

WS: 34
BS: 33 (38)
S: 30
T: 39
Ag:: 34
Int 31
Per: 32
WP: 37 (after Superior Origins)
Fel:31

Fate Points: 2
Wounds: 12 (+2 = 14)

Skills: Speak Language [Low Gothic], Drive [Ground Vehicle], Awareness

Traits: Blessed Ignorance, Hagiography, Liturgical Familiarity, Superior Origins

Talents: Pistol Training [Las], Basic Weapons Training [Las], Basic Weapons Training [Solid Projectile]; Sound Constitution X2

Starting Gear: Axe; Las Pistol + 1 Charge Pack; Las Gun + 1 Charge Pack; Shotgun + 12 Shells; Knife; Guard Flak Armor; Stealth Gear; 1 Week Corpse Starch Rations; Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer

Tat is, IMHO, a character that is definitely on par with what a Guardsman should be as far as TT comparisons go, and then he's even better - he's got more wounds, is more perceptive, and is a slightly better shot than his compatriots, someone who's seen a few battles and survived them. I don't see how that doesn't reflect the TT Imperial Guard.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaTat is, IMHO, a character that is definitely on par with what a Guardsman should be as far as TT comparisons go, and then he's even better - he's got more wounds, is more perceptive, and is a slightly better shot than his compatriots, someone who's seen a few battles and survived them. I don't see how that doesn't reflect the TT Imperial Guard.

-=Grim=-

Actually, given your utter lack of proficency with any of the heavy weapons that are a staple of the Imperial Guard... Also, and this may simply be an oversight on your part, but you are unable to use that axe of yours, seeing as you failed to note proficiency with primative melee weapons.

So... lets see, you can talk and you can shoot a las. that puts you one skill over the level of an idiot savant, and two over the average idiot. I may be mistaken, but as I recall you aren't even literate, though being from an Imperial world you might at least get to roll half your intelligence to understand your Imperal Infatryman's Uplifting Primer...

Quote from: SpikeActually, given your utter lack of proficency with any of the heavy weapons that are a staple of the Imperial Guard... Also, and this may simply be an oversight on your part, but you are unable to use that axe of yours, seeing as you failed to note proficiency with primative melee weapons.

So... lets see, you can talk and you can shoot a las. that puts you one skill over the level of an idiot savant, and two over the average idiot. I may be mistaken, but as I recall you aren't even literate, though being from an Imperial world you might at least get to roll half your intelligence to understand your Imperal Infatryman's Uplifting Primer...

Not every guardsman is trained on heavy or special weapons.  Not every guardsman has even seen a power weapon.  Not every guardsman is trained in knife fighting.  Training varies from world to world and this sort of statement reeks of ignorance.  

The guardsman Grim rolled up is spot on par with how it's supposed to be and is also descriptive of a guardsman in Warhammer 40,000 or Inquisitor.

A lot of you are going into things that you're making up to try to reinforce your point.  While not everyone here might know that you are utterly incorrect, many of us do.

You should be silent lest I am forced to browbeat you more.

QuoteKilling yourself doesn't require any rolling. A GM who forces a person trained to do so in the face of possession is being silly.

I just thing its a perfect example of narrowing of horizons -

40KRPG! Totally Sweet! I wanna play someone like Horus and grind stars beneath my feet!

You can't.

Well, okay. Maybe a Space Marine like Lorken.

No. We are doing the Inquisition.

Oh well, at least I get to boss people about and maybe blow up the odd planet.

Well, when I say inquisition I was thinking of a more junior position.

Well, I've been playing a lot of Devil May Cry latly - can I be a half demon...

No. Lower.

All right, how about Marcus Phenix from Gears of War?

No. To powerful.

Oh, well so long as I get to play with bolt guns.

No.

Ah. How about...

No.

Well, can I kill myself?

You'll have to rolll for it. You need less than 30.

--

Sigh. I want Space Marines, but here we are talking about rules for your character killing himself.

Quote from: BlackhandNot every guardsman is trained on heavy or special weapons.  Not every guardsman has even seen a power weapon.  Not every guardsman is trained in knife fighting.  Training varies from world to world and this sort of statement reeks of ignorance.  

The guardsman Grim rolled up is spot on par with how it's supposed to be and is also descriptive of a guardsman in Warhammer 40,000 or Inquisitor.

A lot of you are going into things that you're making up to try to reinforce your point.  While not everyone here might know that you are utterly incorrect, many of us do.

You should be silent lest I am forced to browbeat you more.

The breadth of your knowledge of soldiers is... staggering.  

More to the point: I said... Axe.

 Primative melee weapons.

On that note, exactly how much of a difference is there, skill wise, between a sword, and a sword with an energy field around it?  

Seriously.


Now, if you are done posturing as some know it all... oh, you're not? Well... I'm gonna have to show you up anyway, because quite frankly, I don't think you'll ever get it through that thick ogryn-like skull of yours that you are NOT the expert of all things 40k here to school us poor deficient mushrooms.

First of all: by your own count the 30 average WS means that the average IG, or frankly any DH character, has a TT WS of 3.  However, without a talent in Melee weapons of some sort (lets use Primative Melee weapons, shall we... you know, axes, swords, lasgun buttstocks) the 'average' guardsman listed above is rolling at HALF his WS... giving him a TT WS of... wait for it... 1. That's right, lower than a grot, lower than a Tau Water Caste diplomat.

Since Imperial Guardsmen DO roll a WS of 3, and not 1 or even 2, that means that YES INDEED they are in fact trained to hit people with sticks, rocks and even, yes, swords and lasgun buttstocks.

Furthermore: In common 40k games, you cannot remove the weilder of a special or heavy weapon because it is stated that another member of the squad will pick it up and keep using it. SInce THEY aren't rolling at half their BS at that point, we MUST acknowledge that, hey! The average IG member is in fact fully trained in the use of all weapons likely to be carried by a member of his squad!

Imagine that!


So, to reiterate, the average 'skilled combatent' in a Dark Heresy game is actually roughly HALF as competent as the nameless, faceless, lowest grunt in the 'weakest' army in the 40k wargame that is the primary source of all the fluff and rules... and coincidentally your primary source of 'this is exactly how it sould be' arguements in this thread.

Punked by your own best supporter. How sad.

I'd let you kill yourself without a roll, but charge you $1 for each unspent fate point.  Per character.

@ spike - I'd respond to you if I could figure out what the fuck you were talking about.  You really aren't making sense and you're trying to connect things that are unconnected.  Apparently I am the expert.

Who's my 'own best supporter' I got punked by?

Even though I'm satisfied with Dark Heresy, Erik (esp his last post) & Spike make a very good case for those who are dissatisfied with this particular product. I do want to run a campaign in the Horus Heresy era....I'm still going RIFTS though :D

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BlackhandI'd let you kill yourself without a roll, but charge you $1 for each unspent fate point.  Per character.

This really does make me chuckle. I love the shit you say you'd do to people at a game table. If you charged me to anything at the table besides chip in for the sandwiches, I'd just laugh at you and walk out. I assume it's hyperbole, so to be more realistic, as soon as I realized that playing at your table was about playing a rank chump, I'd tell you that your game was weak and that your game needs to be put out of its misery.

Quote@ spike - I'd respond to you if I could figure out what the fuck you were talking about.  You really aren't making sense and you're trying to connect things that are unconnected.  Apparently I am the expert.

Who's my 'own best supporter' I got punked by?

Did you know that's not even an argument? I don't know if you were aware, of just didn't give a shit.

Quote from: Blackhand@ spike - I'd respond to you if I could figure out what the fuck you were talking about.  You really aren't making sense and you're trying to connect things that are unconnected.  Apparently I am the expert.

Who's my 'own best supporter' I got punked by?

I see, so I am expected to do all your thinking for you then?

Your own 'best supporter' has been, in this thread certainly, the Table Top game.

Which I just used against your arguements.

Let me know if I am going to fast for ya.

Quote from: SpikeActually, given your utter lack of proficency with any of the heavy weapons that are a staple of the Imperial Guard... Also, and this may simply be an oversight on your part, but you are unable to use that axe of yours, seeing as you failed to note proficiency with primative melee weapons.

Staying away from you and Blackhand's argument...

Actually, a beginning Guardsman *does* start with that proficiency, so the point is moot except that I forgot to list it amongst the starting Talents. So he sure as fuck can swing that axe.

The heavy weapon teams, IIRC, are picked from the experienced Guardsmen. It takes a whopping 1 adventure to get that Talent assuming you game for 6 hours - 100 to buy another skill to get you to the next rank, then 200 for Heavy Weapons. I think 1 adventure isn't a horribly long time to wait to use a Heavy Bolter.

The Primer isn't a book, per say, so playing it on a Data-Slate can be audio or visual. Most people can't read in the 41st Millennium, so why would it be a book?

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaStaying away from you and Blackhand's argument...

Actually, a beginning Guardsman *does* start with that proficiency, so the point is moot except that I forgot to list it amongst the starting Talents. So he sure as fuck can swing that axe.

The heavy weapon teams, IIRC, are picked from the experienced Guardsmen. It takes a whopping 1 adventure to get that Talent assuming you game for 6 hours - 100 to buy another skill to get you to the next rank, then 200 for Heavy Weapons. I think 1 adventure isn't a horribly long time to wait to use a Heavy Bolter.

The Primer isn't a book, per say, so playing it on a Data-Slate can be audio or visual. Most people can't read in the 41st Millennium, so why would it be a book?

-=Grim=-

Aside from the fact that I own one? No reason.

However, this still illustrates my point. Sure, some XP makes up for not starting with the skills that a guardsman SHOULD start with...

But you shouldn't NEED those XP.

Again: Not being literate, not having skills that should be integral to your job, being unable to start as a character who is at least minimally competent and somewhat able to start with a distinct style or signature... these are horribly broken facets, but they speak to me of shoddy game design. Never mind that overcoming this is not as simple as just handing out a few more xp at the start, due to the increasing complexity of purchacing skills/talents as the xp total grows (at least in bulk chunks. In play I am certain it remains more or less managable)...


Look, and not to try to rope you in with blackhand either: the 40k setting presupposes that you are playing Heroes. Blankhead forgets that. Every guardsman is a hero, Space Marines are walking Gods.

What he also forgets is: That isn't good enough.  

So the setting tells us a thousand times that a million heroes die every day fighting to preserve the Imperium and then the game has you make an undereducated simpleton and expect them to keep up?

Its a failure of emulation.  Just like the failure to hard code in the nature of many jobs/castes into character creation is a failure.

Again: Most people that are represented in the various games and fictions are raised from childhood into their jobs.  Take the moderately humble Psyker 'career'.  You start barely able to perform basic 'tricks' much less 'awesome psychic might'... yet you have a fixed 10% chance of fucking up, potentially catestrophically, for even the easiest abilities.

Yet... you represnt someone of sufficient power and survivability that they hauled you, from any given god forsaken corner of the Imperium (million worlds plus) all the way to Earth (Terra) to meet the Immortal God Emperor (a singular being) to PERSONALLY bless off on your right to practice your arts. This is instead of being executed on the spot as a walking corruption risk, being bound to the golden throne as food for the Emperor, tied to the Astronomicon or any of a thousand other lesser fates that being tasked to the Inquisition (the single most powerful branch of the Imperium, capable of killing entire worlds if need be, I remind you)...

Does this make sense? Does it make sense that a Psychic run through that gauntlet would retain any vestigal 'primative' traits, regardless of how backwards his homeworld?  I mean, in order to even qualify for the Black ships (instead of on the spot execution), he would have been a best a young teen, spent years in space traveling, more years going through rigorous training and testing...

Ditto the Adeptus Mechanicus. For all we know they don't even recruit, just breed new Adeptus's in some sort of biolab, much as they do the Grey Knights space marines (specifically, and occasionally members of other, ordinary chapters as well... cloning is canon, if not common).  Yet, they still have potential origins that are unchanged and identical to the other charcter careers.

To help illustrate why this is an emulation problem: The symbol of the Imperium is a two headed eagle. One head represents the Imperium the other the Adeptus Mechanicus... in other words they are more accurately a 'seperate but equal power' to the entire fuckign Imperium...  They don't even worship the same God as the rest of the Imperium... and they don't get called for Heresy...much.

Dark Heresy isn't a bad game, but it is a lazy fucking attempt to capture the important details of characters.  It is a lazy hack job of a career system, and the competence level (not power) is too low for what it supposedly represents.


Two years for this? Would have been faster to write my own GURPS sourcebook. ANd when GURPS characters are more competent...

Um, did Blackhand get under your skin or something? I didn't argue against any of those points other than say the Imperial Guardsman career isn't untrue to TT. Then you started ranting about things I didn't even bring up.

This is why I drink myself to sleep at night and why we can never have anything nice.

-=Grim=-

QuoteThen you started ranting about things I didn't even bring up.

Blackhand's posting style would seem to be rubbing off.

If you want characters to start off more experienced, you need to hand out XP at the start so that players can build those characters. It's a bit like saying in a game with point-buy "Ok, normally starting dweebs only have 5 points to spend, but I want a heroic game. You all start with 20."

This is a silly non-issue.

Dark Heresy's main problem is just that it was clearly designed to be part of a trio of corebooks which would mutually expand upon one another's information and game play options, but the other two will never come out. This is a problem, but it's not an insoluble one, and it's not even fatal. If you want to play one of the options that was supposed to be dealt with in another one of the corebooks, you're out of luck, it's true. But if you don't - if you want to play any of the character options presented in DH, it does a pretty good job of letting you do so.

Quote from: GrimJestaThis is why I drink myself to sleep at night...

Heh. I didn't need this thread for that. You're behind the curve.

Oh, and on topic...

It's true that homebrewing isn't really an excuse for bad design moves, but when it's as simple as adding extra xp it really is so close to a non-issue as to actually approach being a non-issue. It's like complaining that D&D characters start off too lame when you can just make characters that start off at level 5, or that Mages are too weak in (whichever version of) Mage when you can just add exp to be spent on magic-y shit.

The details are probably a bit different, and I haven't read the book so I imagine it's super easy to just stroll in (Blackhand, for example) and tell me that I lack enough cred to discuss the matter at all. But I've played a lot of games, and read even more, so I've at least got some college credit.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineIf you want characters to start off more experienced, you need to hand out XP at the start so that players can build those characters. It's a bit like saying in a game with point-buy "Ok, normally starting dweebs only have 5 points to spend, but I want a heroic game. You all start with 20."

This is a silly non-issue.

.

I've been playing with it since it came out and I can tell you that, quite unlike even D&D, it is not a 'non-issue' to just hand out more XP and solve the problem. Past the first two ranks in the career it rapidly spirals out of hand.

To put it into D&D terms its like saying 'well, 1st level is sort of weak, but if you want to you can play much higher levels to start...like 3rd.  But if you try 10th...well, its gonna take eight hours and three people double checking to do it right.'

Can't we all just get along?

I only said you were ignorant when you showed that you were.

I didn't say anyone was stupid.  I let you do that yourselves.

Surely, we can all chill out and be cool.

We all like Warhammer, even if some of you are remiss to admit it.

Quote from: SpikeI've been playing with it since it came out and I can tell you that, quite unlike even D&D, it is not a 'non-issue' to just hand out more XP and solve the problem. Past the first two ranks in the career it rapidly spirals out of hand.

To put it into D&D terms its like saying 'well, 1st level is sort of weak, but if you want to you can play much higher levels to start...like 3rd.  But if you try 10th...well, its gonna take eight hours and three people double checking to do it right.'

I'm not understanding your point here. I mean, I *see* what you're saying, but it does not compute and I don't think it's because I rode the short bus to school or my mother slapped upside the head too often. How is basic addition "spiraling out of control"? I'm not knocking you, I'm just not understanding you. I just made a 2,000 point NPC two nights ago and it was easy as fuck.

100 XP + 100 XP + 100 XP + 100 XP + 200 XP + 200 XP + 100 XP + 250 XP, etc.. It's much easier than leveling a character from scratch than, say, D&D in any of its incarnations (besides Basic), WoD in any of it's incarnations, or pretty much any game I have on my bookshelf.

So I'm not seeing the difficulty.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: BlackhandWe all like Warhammer, even if some of you are remiss to admit it.

I don't! But the thread's great!

Quote from: BlackhandWe all like Warhammer, even if some of you are remiss to admit it.

Warhammer is dead to me.

When they stopped producing or supporting Blood Bowl, I lost interest.

Thank god I abandoned the useless mini wargames that GW pumps out. Besides WFRP & the 40K setting, Space Hulk (& Blood Bowl) are the only games worth playing...all of which are no longer in production.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThank god I abandoned the useless mini wargames that GW pumps out. Besides WFRP & the 40K setting, Space Hulk (& Blood Bowl) are the only games worth playing...all of which are no longer in production.

Regards,
David R

Amen to that. All that interests me is the 40k setting in general terms, and Abnett's novels more specifically. Which is a rich source of roleplaying material.

Quote from: SpikeI've been playing with it since it came out and I can tell you that, quite unlike even D&D, it is not a 'non-issue' to just hand out more XP and solve the problem. Past the first two ranks in the career it rapidly spirals out of hand.

To put it into D&D terms its like saying 'well, 1st level is sort of weak, but if you want to you can play much higher levels to start...like 3rd.  But if you try 10th...well, its gonna take eight hours and three people double checking to do it right.'

Dude, if you want to play a supercompetent character with tons of abilities, you have to spend time figuring out what all those abilities are. Starting at 10th level in D&D really is a pretty time consuming process unless you're a pro who's been building chars for years. DH has now been out for what, a week and a half, maybe two?

Quote from: GrimJestaI'm not understanding your point here. I mean, I *see* what you're saying, but it does not compute and I don't think it's because I rode the short bus to school or my mother slapped upside the head too often. How is basic addition "spiraling out of control"? I'm not knocking you, I'm just not understanding you. I just made a 2,000 point NPC two nights ago and it was easy as fuck.

100 XP + 100 XP + 100 XP + 100 XP + 200 XP + 200 XP + 100 XP + 250 XP, etc.. It's much easier than leveling a character from scratch than, say, D&D in any of its incarnations (besides Basic), WoD in any of it's incarnations, or pretty much any game I have on my bookshelf.

So I'm not seeing the difficulty.

-=Grim=-

I'll address the difficulty when I get to Psuedo's post down below. 2000 points is still within the 'not too difficult' stage, actually, but then, 2000 points also keeps you within two ranks of a carreer.

Mostly I wanted to apologize for seeming to rant at you. That wasn't my intent, though the post may have drifted from its initial tone.  I was attempting to give a reasonable, detailed, answer to a reasonable poster...

Quote from: PseudoephedrineDude, if you want to play a supercompetent character with tons of abilities, you have to spend time figuring out what all those abilities are.

Well yeah thats the thing -  cause the system is based on playing peons making someone who iisn't is a pain.

Even 'high level' characters arn't exactly death on legs - maxed out characters only get +20% to stats, and even the toughest characters the system can make are gonna be turned to mush by hits from standard issue guard heavy weapons and bolt guns.

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell yeah thats the thing -  cause the system is based on playing peons making someone who iisn't is a pain.

Even 'high level' characters arn't exactly death on legs - maxed out characters only get +20% to stats, and even the toughest characters the system can make are gonna be turned to mush by hits from standard issue guard heavy weapons and bolt guns.

IG heavy weapons are intended to turn people to mush, and they do so in the wargame as well as the RPG. If you want characters who are immune to lascannons, you want characters who are stronger than even marine chapter commanders.

Bolters, on the other hand, are not as serious as you are suggesting. The "toughest character" in the game as written would have a toughness of 60+ and be wearing best quality power armour. This would let him soak 15 points of damage - the maximum damage of a non-heavy-weapon bolter. The penetration value of the bolter would let four points of damage go through - if it attained the maximum damage roll possible. The character in question, as the toughest character in the game, would have about 28 wounds (he would be a 7th rank guardsman stormtrooper), meaning that a bolt gun dealing its maximum damage would remove slightly less than 1/7th of his total wounds.

In game, this character could reasonably expect to survive a hit from anti-tank weapons like meltaguns and krak grenades, let alone any sort of anti-personnel weapon.

Your complaint is baseless as it is currently formulated.

Yeah, but take away the power armour and he's looking at a world of hurt when a character with an autogun rolls less than 10.

Conversely, give a starting character the armour and he's still mostly immune to small arms.

Yknow? And 40k  has tanks and demons and everything to contend with at higher levels. Its just not intended to produce interesting combat at the kind of level where people are toting lascannons and whatnot.

Effectivly, it just means you are never gonna see fights with lascannons or greater demons or attack helicopters or tanks or a lot of other cool stuff because it would just kill people to often.

Quote from: SpikeI'll address the difficulty when I get to Psuedo's post down below. 2000 points is still within the 'not too difficult' stage, actually, but then, 2000 points also keeps you within two ranks of a carreer.

Mostly I wanted to apologize for seeming to rant at you. That wasn't my intent, though the post may have drifted from its initial tone.  I was attempting to give a reasonable, detailed, answer to a reasonable poster...

I haven't gone higher than 2000 or so, so I think tonight I'll see what 10,000 is like. You might be right. We're supposed to get snowed in and my GF is at 'that time of the month' so I won't have anything better to do.

Quote from: Erik BoielleEffectivly, it just means you are never gonna see fights with lascannons or greater demons or attack helicopters or tanks or a lot of other cool stuff because it would just kill people to often.

Erik, do you post these things just to Troll or do you believe them? I'm at the point where I think you just look at the pictures and think that's what it's all about if it's the latter, but I really think it might be the former. I honestly can't tell.

Tanks mow through units on the TT. Daemons do the same thing. I lost an entire squad of Marines to one fucking Genestealer once. I decimated my friend Artie's entire Imperial Guard army with one Carnifex and a squad of Gargoyles. I watched a Marine Chaplain get taken down regular chump Necrons. Let's not talk about what a Bloodthirster can do to an entire Marine army, eh? Any TT character that can take one of those on is far beyond the scope of any RPG since you're moving into the realm of ridiculousness.

In 40K life is cheap and you don't seem to realize this. The guys you keep rnting and raving about, the dudes with the glistening, bulging biceps and the cool action poses - they usually die right after the 'picture' is taken of them posing like that.

You keep saying that DH isn't true to TT, but in TT I've seen whole Marine Command Squads overrun by Hormigaunts, the ass-end of the Tyranids.

Life is cheap in the 41st Millennium. It's why most planets pay their tithes in blood in addition to goods: aliens, daemons and your much touted tanks rip through even the best of soldiers like wheat.

Also: Necromunda is as much 40K as a squad of Marines and DH characters are better than Necromunda gangs. So how is this all untrue to the genre?

-=Grim=-

It this kind of stuff:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRrOfBgWpjU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9cT3fxlM7c

If you want to run action like that you can't use a system like Dark Heresies - the tank cannons would one-hit your PCs and then where would you be?

It isn't true to th tabletop, but then the novels arn't true to th tabletop. The comics arn't true to tabletop. The videogames arn't true to tabletop. If they made a movie it wouldn't be true to tabletop.

DnD isn't true to tolkien. X-Wing wasn't true to Star Wars.

It isn't a wargame. In the wargame you don't have only 3-4 units (pcs). There is no continuity - everyone just gets back up after the battle for another go. And you generally don't want one side to win all the time!

I mean seriously - try running a combat heavy RPG with the wargame rules and see how far you get!

QuoteAlso: Necromunda is as much 40K as a squad of Marines

Necromunda doesn't shift as much product as Marines. BI=dead from lack of sales. Do the math.

So in your book every OOP game is bad? Poor oWoD fans.

You skirted my question: you keep saying that the WH40K RPG isn't as awesome as the OMGpewpewpew fantasies you have, thus not in keeping with 40K itself. Mainly because PCs can't soak a shot from a TANK. I pointed out that even the much vaunted Marines can't do that.

How is DH not in keeping with 40K's power levels? Humans get mowed down by tanks and daemons. Such is like in the 41st millennium.

I can't believe you posted a cartoon an anime in retort. Explains a lot. As awesome as Appleseed is, it isn't 40K.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: Erik BoielleYeah, but take away the power armour and he's looking at a world of hurt when a character with an autogun rolls less than 10.

Conversely, give a starting character the armour and he's still mostly immune to small arms.

Your problem appears to be that characters in DH take damage.

40eriK.

QuoteI can't believe you posted a cartoon an anime in retort. Explains a lot. As awesome as Appleseed is, it isn't 40K.

And if gw made a cartoon, do we think it would be true to tabletop or Appleseed.

Your damn right - just like World of Warhammer Online is true to WoW and Fire Warrior was true to Halo and Dawn of War was true to command and Conquer it'd be true to bloody Appleseed.

If they didn't want to go bust anyway.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineDude, if you want to play a supercompetent character with tons of abilities, you have to spend time figuring out what all those abilities are. Starting at 10th level in D&D really is a pretty time consuming process unless you're a pro who's been building chars for years. DH has now been out for what, a week and a half, maybe two?

That is only true of D&D if you are into hyper-optimization. The fact is that a 10th, 15th or even 20th level character can be made reasonably easily by sticking to one or at most two classes (possibly a prestige class).  Most characters won't have but 7 feats to pick, the fighters have easy to grasp chain feats to suck up their... 14? feat picks at 20th level.  Roll a handfull of dice for hitpoints, add a few (up to 5) points to your stats and assign skill points, arguably the most complex part of the process, and you are done.

Sure: Shopping for magic items can take a while, but thats true any time you hand out wads of cash, in any system.  I've got 7 books full of toys in Cyberpunk 2020 to flip through if I want, and nobody can reasonably argue that Cp2020 was a complex game, or hard to make characters for.

In Dark Heresy, however, you have several pages of charts, broken into chunks. You have non-universal point costs, depending upon which level chart you are looking at. Take the Sound Constituition talent. For a Trooper, a first level Guardsman, it costs 100 xp and can be bought 3 times. For a Stormtrooper it costs 300 xp, but you can still go back and buy the original Trooper levels if, for some reason, you neglected them in the first place. Old charts are not rendered invalid, and the information in them does not accrete into the higher level charts.  To add to the mess, I noted in at least one place were an ability was listed on a chart that the career started with for free...  

Its not excessively hard, I suppose; Merely tedious in the extreme.  The idea of accumulating skills and talents as a means of 'leveling up' is prefectly fine and dandy. Its the piss poor organization and the excessive glut of 'point sink' talents... often, bizzarely, unavailable at lower levels that irritate me most.   Working with large numbers for the sake of 'lots of zeroes' is unnecessary. Every xp number could be divided by 50, or even 100 and it would be more intuitive and play exactly the same.

My point remains: Its a shoddy hack job of the existing WHFRP with few, if any redeeming features other than stats for the nifty toys and pretty pages. There is nothing remarkable about it, certainly nothing that justifies releasing it a year late, with two years spent on the project and a massive 'design by committee' staff.

Of course, I am being unfair by focusing on the character creation portion. There were some gems in there, or at least half gems.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineYour problem appears to be that characters in DH take damage.

More that if you listn to the DnD podcast they talk about damage outputs and wether mechanics make things more or less fun and it is SO much better that the 'Lascannons should stop you from having fun' or 'troll slayers should not be fun to play' or ;'the imperium should make an RPG more difficult'.

Fuck you and your shoulds! Do the damn mechanics work in the real world! Do they make this FUCKING GAME more fun!

LOL, you *are* a 4ron.

"Damage isn't fun, fun, FUN! Let's get rid of it. And characters should be AWESOME! At first level! Because anything else isn't fun! Fuck hit points. Now you have "boo boo" points and are only stunned one round when you take damage that brings you down to 0, then you're back to full health... but only after pumping yourself up to some AWESOME deathmetal. What's the use of equipment lists anyway? No one should have to pay for awesome stuff, 'cuz that isn't FUN! Or AWESOME!"

I have a feeling your RPG sessions are a snorefest. I can't imagine them to be much more than "OMGpewpewpewI'mawesomepewpewkillkill".

D&D 4e is definitely your cup of tea.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: One Horse Town40eriK.

He's not worthy of this.

Erik = LoL

Spike = LoL, but harder.

If only we could work his name into F.A.T.A.L. since that'd be more fitting I think...

-=Grim=-

Quote from: Erik BoielleFuck you and your shoulds! Do the damn mechanics work in the real world! Do they make this FUCKING GAME more fun!

Have you actually played a session of Dark Heresy?

Quote from: PseudoephedrineHave you actually played a session of Dark Heresy?

I'm sure he hasn't.

He also has never played Warhammer 40,000 and thinks that it's an anime.

Spike> It's true that you have to consult many charts, but if you're finding it too complicated as it stands, here's a simple tip: Photocopy the charts (or download one of the pdf scans of the book available on the internet and print them off) and then just go along with a pencil or marker putting check marks next to each talent as you buy it. Just keep a running tally of how much experience you've spent, and you'll be fine. Organising the information spatially like that will make it much easier to digest.

It's the same with D&D monsters, actually, which is where I learnt the trick. Print off the monster's base from d20srd, along with the abilities you can't remember at a glance. Then just write over the print out in sharpie as you play and use the blank space of the page for notes as necessary. You can even use the back of the page for encounter notes if you need them.

Quote from: GrimJestaD&D 4e is definitely your cup of tea

Well, at least it won't be canned the day after it comes out!

Quote from: Erik BoielleWell, at least it won't be canned the day after it comes out!

Is that what this is really about?

Quote from: BlackhandIs that what this is really about?

Yes. In part, if the wriiters of DH/WFRP hadn't been stupidly unprofessional and done something niche based on forum bullshit instead of examining what fucking sells (Hint - SPACE FUCKING MARINES DIPSHITS!) maybe, just maybe they wouldn't have died. For the FOUTH FUCKING TIME!

That I'd have liked it more is merely a side effect.

Playing Space Marines would be boring, IMHO.

Fight.
Pray.
Fight.
Pray.
Fight.
Pray.
Execute the traitor that tries to start small talk for interrupting prayers.
Pray some more.

Sounds exciting compared to Dark Heresy. :haw: :haw:

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaPlaying Space Marines would be boring, IMHO.

Fight.
Pray.
Fight.
Pray.
Fight.
Pray.
Execute the traitor that tries to start small talk for interrupting prayers.
Pray some more.

In Durham Red, one of the "Marines" gets bitten by a vampire.  He thinks that means he's in her thrall and has to do anything she tells him.  Except that she's not that kind of vampire and has no psychic powers.  So she doesn't tell him that.

Marines could be good characters for roleplaying... as long as you had a mixed group.

Quote from: Erik BoielleYes. In part, if the wriiters of DH/WFRP hadn't been stupidly unprofessional and done something niche based on forum bullshit instead of examining what fucking sells (Hint - SPACE FUCKING MARINES DIPSHITS!) maybe, just maybe they wouldn't have died. For the FOUTH FUCKING TIME!

That I'd have liked it more is merely a side effect.

What exactly died four times?  40krp in Cincinnati?  This is the first time they have done a 40krpg.

For someone who knows so much you're pretty fucking stupid.

I don't know about mixing Space Marines with other characters because of the GINORMOUS power curve unbalancing that a Space Marine would do to a group.

"Oh no!  Heretics!"

"Lets run and get Brother Smythe!"

*Brother Smythe Arrives*

"Eat Bolter Death Heretic Scum!"

*New Adventure*

"Oh no! Aliens!"

"Lets run and get Brother Smythe!"

*Brother Smythe Arrives*

"Eat Bolter Death Alien Scum!"

*New Adventure*

Eh.

They publish endless novels about Marines.

You can either get with the program or, like BI, get on the dole.

So, having accepted that the only viable form of warhammer roleplaying involves Marines or something AS COOL, we turn our attention to how to do it.

I see no reason for Marines to be any less interesting than Pendragon knights.

Quote from: Erik BoielleEh.

They publish endless novels about Marines.

You can either get with the program or, like BI, get on the dole.

So, having accepted that the only viable form of warhammer roleplaying involves Marines or something AS COOL, we turn our attention to how to do it.

I see no reason for Marines to be any less interesting than Pendragon knights.

How many of those do you consider to be the BL drivel I was hearing so much about the other day?

I don't disagree Space Marine adventure wouldn't be cool, but they are even more the 'Emperor's Bitches' than the DH PC's you've been hating on.

Quote from: BlackhandHow many of those do you consider to be the BL drivel I was hearing so much about the other day?

They do their job.

QuoteI don't disagree Space Marine adventure wouldn't be cool, but they are even more the 'Emperor's Bitches' than the DH PC's you've been hating on.

Nah. Space Marines only answer to the Emperor, and he hasn't given any directives for ten thousand years. Like Inquisitors, they are more or less left to their own devices. And just as Inquisitors argue (with RAM grenades and star hot plasma) about what the Emperor would want, so can Marines.

And Marines are always portrayed as passionate guys - if you shoot one they scream in pain and anger, so they arn't robots. It'd be easy to have a Rage stat for Marines that they can build up by doing violence that makes them more powerful but also more likly to go berserk or forget their piety or fall to the dark side or declare themselves gods and carve out their own kingdoms.

They are the most powerful warriors in a galaxy where there is only war. Can you say raging hyper-testosterone fulled egos and god complexes?

Basically, the direction to approach it from is that no ifs no buts people want Marines. You can give them Marines or GTFO. If you can't make Marines work, someone else wiill, so quit complaining and get to work.

From the Oracle of Wikipedia... because I don't bring Rogue Trader with me everywhere I go. :haw:

QuoteA Rogue Trader can be in charge of up to a dozen ships, including many transports with willing colonists and troops. They tend to be individuals who have reached a certain height in the Imperium but for some reason are not considered fit for further advancement. By being offered Rogue Trader status, they can be put somewhere out of harm's reach, though it strengthens their reputation as outcasts. They can include overzealous Space Marine Commanders, powerful navigators and even Inquisitors.

Reading this thread I get the impression Space Marines are a bit like Minsc in Baldur's Gate?

Squeaky Tyranid gets the kick!

-=Grim=-

ain check on timing myself spending XP, Spike. I slashed open my right hand (my writing/mouse-clicking hand) and have stitches and shit. Considering that I'm typing with one finger (left index) my time would be way off. But I still want to check if it's as cumbersome as you say it is. I might do three characters to see if it's only the first time you do it that it's slow. Once you know the skills and talents I think it'll speed up and only take a few minutes.

-=Grim=-

It's really not that hard, Grim.

2000 points is a little much I think.  My campaigns tend to run about that much in their entirety - I do 10 episodes before we switch back to WFRP (where I use the same system) and award 200xp per session.  Yes, I do it arbitrarily so I control how powerful each PC is at any given time.

Episode 8 is next Thursday and the PC's have 1400xp going into it.

After 10 episodes of WFRP we'll come back to Dark Heresy and surviving characters will have 2000xp to start next campaign.

I have been crafting NPC's (with Fate Points) around 1200xp for the last two sessions and it's a breeze to generate these characters if you're familiar with the system.  Much easier than D&D or any other system I've ever played (with the possible exception of WFRP).