Same thing I do everyday, Pinky.

Try to take over the world.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeWhoever it is, I'd pay good money to watch a cage-match between Blackhand and Erik Boielle.

I'd punch the pope to see that happen. I'd stroll through the streets of Baghdad screaming that God is not fucking great just for that thread to go down.

SRSLY.

Quote from: BlackhandGirls HATE Warhammer and the related games.

Three out of the five players at my WFRP/Dark Heresy/Hackmaster group are girls. Girls get it. Just not all of them. These bitches are murderous too. All in the name of Sigmar/The Emperor. I know you were joking, but I'm just sayin'...

Quote from: BalbinusMy point was more to the power level, the power level in the game follows the WFRP model, but not the 40k source material IMO.  I think it's quixotic to make a licenced game in which you play characters so far below the abilities of those in the licenced setting.

Necromunda and Inquisitor were also 40K and DH isn't far removed from those games' power levels. Shit, mot of my Inquisitor warband members spent more time laying on their backs like a cheap hooker than actually fighting. DH isn't nearly as bad. Still, saying it isn't true to the genre is false.

Quote from: KieroNo, most of them can't write for shit, and feature dull characters. I know because I've suffered my way through more of them than I care to think about.

Amen to that.

Quote from: David JohansenI thought the Bolt Thrower albums were the most reviled thing GW ever did.

Double fucking amen.

-=Grim=-

See, here we get a thread about having your character kill himself:-

http://forum.blpublishing.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=4774&PN=1

with opinions expressed that they arn't even cool enough to do that properly:-

QuoteThe problem I have with killing yourself, is that people aren't very good at it. You'll definitely damage yourself, but will you mortally wound youself?

:rolleyes:

When you character even has a 70% chance of failing to kill themselves, you gotta wonder precisely what you CAN do.

Killing yourself doesn't require any rolling. A GM who forces a person trained to do so in the face of possession is being silly.

Anyway to address something someone said before, it was mentioned that the starting Guardsman isn't even up to par with a regular Imperial Guardsman (saying something like 'most guardsman characters have to spend many session just to learn basic Imperial Guardsman weapons' or something along those lines). So I rolled one up and thus beg to differ:

QuoteAverage Imperial World Guardsman (italics after 400 starting XP spent and starting cash blown on newer equipment)

WS: 34
BS: 33 (38)
S: 30
T: 39
Ag:: 34
Int 31
Per: 32
WP: 37 (after Superior Origins)
Fel:31

Fate Points: 2
Wounds: 12 (+2 = 14)

Skills: Speak Language [Low Gothic], Drive [Ground Vehicle], Awareness

Traits: Blessed Ignorance, Hagiography, Liturgical Familiarity, Superior Origins

Talents: Pistol Training [Las], Basic Weapons Training [Las], Basic Weapons Training [Solid Projectile]; Sound Constitution X2

Starting Gear: Axe; Las Pistol + 1 Charge Pack; Las Gun + 1 Charge Pack; Shotgun + 12 Shells; Knife; Guard Flak Armor; Stealth Gear; 1 Week Corpse Starch Rations; Imperial Infantryman's Uplifting Primer

Tat is, IMHO, a character that is definitely on par with what a Guardsman should be as far as TT comparisons go, and then he's even better - he's got more wounds, is more perceptive, and is a slightly better shot than his compatriots, someone who's seen a few battles and survived them. I don't see how that doesn't reflect the TT Imperial Guard.

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaTat is, IMHO, a character that is definitely on par with what a Guardsman should be as far as TT comparisons go, and then he's even better - he's got more wounds, is more perceptive, and is a slightly better shot than his compatriots, someone who's seen a few battles and survived them. I don't see how that doesn't reflect the TT Imperial Guard.

-=Grim=-

Actually, given your utter lack of proficency with any of the heavy weapons that are a staple of the Imperial Guard... Also, and this may simply be an oversight on your part, but you are unable to use that axe of yours, seeing as you failed to note proficiency with primative melee weapons.

So... lets see, you can talk and you can shoot a las. that puts you one skill over the level of an idiot savant, and two over the average idiot. I may be mistaken, but as I recall you aren't even literate, though being from an Imperial world you might at least get to roll half your intelligence to understand your Imperal Infatryman's Uplifting Primer...

Quote from: SpikeActually, given your utter lack of proficency with any of the heavy weapons that are a staple of the Imperial Guard... Also, and this may simply be an oversight on your part, but you are unable to use that axe of yours, seeing as you failed to note proficiency with primative melee weapons.

So... lets see, you can talk and you can shoot a las. that puts you one skill over the level of an idiot savant, and two over the average idiot. I may be mistaken, but as I recall you aren't even literate, though being from an Imperial world you might at least get to roll half your intelligence to understand your Imperal Infatryman's Uplifting Primer...

Not every guardsman is trained on heavy or special weapons.  Not every guardsman has even seen a power weapon.  Not every guardsman is trained in knife fighting.  Training varies from world to world and this sort of statement reeks of ignorance.  

The guardsman Grim rolled up is spot on par with how it's supposed to be and is also descriptive of a guardsman in Warhammer 40,000 or Inquisitor.

A lot of you are going into things that you're making up to try to reinforce your point.  While not everyone here might know that you are utterly incorrect, many of us do.

You should be silent lest I am forced to browbeat you more.

QuoteKilling yourself doesn't require any rolling. A GM who forces a person trained to do so in the face of possession is being silly.

I just thing its a perfect example of narrowing of horizons -

40KRPG! Totally Sweet! I wanna play someone like Horus and grind stars beneath my feet!

You can't.

Well, okay. Maybe a Space Marine like Lorken.

No. We are doing the Inquisition.

Oh well, at least I get to boss people about and maybe blow up the odd planet.

Well, when I say inquisition I was thinking of a more junior position.

Well, I've been playing a lot of Devil May Cry latly - can I be a half demon...

No. Lower.

All right, how about Marcus Phenix from Gears of War?

No. To powerful.

Oh, well so long as I get to play with bolt guns.

No.

Ah. How about...

No.

Well, can I kill myself?

You'll have to rolll for it. You need less than 30.

--

Sigh. I want Space Marines, but here we are talking about rules for your character killing himself.

Quote from: BlackhandNot every guardsman is trained on heavy or special weapons.  Not every guardsman has even seen a power weapon.  Not every guardsman is trained in knife fighting.  Training varies from world to world and this sort of statement reeks of ignorance.  

The guardsman Grim rolled up is spot on par with how it's supposed to be and is also descriptive of a guardsman in Warhammer 40,000 or Inquisitor.

A lot of you are going into things that you're making up to try to reinforce your point.  While not everyone here might know that you are utterly incorrect, many of us do.

You should be silent lest I am forced to browbeat you more.

The breadth of your knowledge of soldiers is... staggering.  

More to the point: I said... Axe.

 Primative melee weapons.

On that note, exactly how much of a difference is there, skill wise, between a sword, and a sword with an energy field around it?  

Seriously.


Now, if you are done posturing as some know it all... oh, you're not? Well... I'm gonna have to show you up anyway, because quite frankly, I don't think you'll ever get it through that thick ogryn-like skull of yours that you are NOT the expert of all things 40k here to school us poor deficient mushrooms.

First of all: by your own count the 30 average WS means that the average IG, or frankly any DH character, has a TT WS of 3.  However, without a talent in Melee weapons of some sort (lets use Primative Melee weapons, shall we... you know, axes, swords, lasgun buttstocks) the 'average' guardsman listed above is rolling at HALF his WS... giving him a TT WS of... wait for it... 1. That's right, lower than a grot, lower than a Tau Water Caste diplomat.

Since Imperial Guardsmen DO roll a WS of 3, and not 1 or even 2, that means that YES INDEED they are in fact trained to hit people with sticks, rocks and even, yes, swords and lasgun buttstocks.

Furthermore: In common 40k games, you cannot remove the weilder of a special or heavy weapon because it is stated that another member of the squad will pick it up and keep using it. SInce THEY aren't rolling at half their BS at that point, we MUST acknowledge that, hey! The average IG member is in fact fully trained in the use of all weapons likely to be carried by a member of his squad!

Imagine that!


So, to reiterate, the average 'skilled combatent' in a Dark Heresy game is actually roughly HALF as competent as the nameless, faceless, lowest grunt in the 'weakest' army in the 40k wargame that is the primary source of all the fluff and rules... and coincidentally your primary source of 'this is exactly how it sould be' arguements in this thread.

Punked by your own best supporter. How sad.

I'd let you kill yourself without a roll, but charge you $1 for each unspent fate point.  Per character.

@ spike - I'd respond to you if I could figure out what the fuck you were talking about.  You really aren't making sense and you're trying to connect things that are unconnected.  Apparently I am the expert.

Who's my 'own best supporter' I got punked by?

Even though I'm satisfied with Dark Heresy, Erik (esp his last post) & Spike make a very good case for those who are dissatisfied with this particular product. I do want to run a campaign in the Horus Heresy era....I'm still going RIFTS though

Regards,
David R

Quote from: BlackhandI'd let you kill yourself without a roll, but charge you $1 for each unspent fate point.  Per character.

This really does make me chuckle. I love the shit you say you'd do to people at a game table. If you charged me to anything at the table besides chip in for the sandwiches, I'd just laugh at you and walk out. I assume it's hyperbole, so to be more realistic, as soon as I realized that playing at your table was about playing a rank chump, I'd tell you that your game was weak and that your game needs to be put out of its misery.

Quote@ spike - I'd respond to you if I could figure out what the fuck you were talking about.  You really aren't making sense and you're trying to connect things that are unconnected.  Apparently I am the expert.

Who's my 'own best supporter' I got punked by?

Did you know that's not even an argument? I don't know if you were aware, of just didn't give a shit.

Quote from: Blackhand@ spike - I'd respond to you if I could figure out what the fuck you were talking about.  You really aren't making sense and you're trying to connect things that are unconnected.  Apparently I am the expert.

Who's my 'own best supporter' I got punked by?

I see, so I am expected to do all your thinking for you then?

Your own 'best supporter' has been, in this thread certainly, the Table Top game.

Which I just used against your arguements.

Let me know if I am going to fast for ya.

Quote from: SpikeActually, given your utter lack of proficency with any of the heavy weapons that are a staple of the Imperial Guard... Also, and this may simply be an oversight on your part, but you are unable to use that axe of yours, seeing as you failed to note proficiency with primative melee weapons.

Staying away from you and Blackhand's argument...

Actually, a beginning Guardsman *does* start with that proficiency, so the point is moot except that I forgot to list it amongst the starting Talents. So he sure as fuck can swing that axe.

The heavy weapon teams, IIRC, are picked from the experienced Guardsmen. It takes a whopping 1 adventure to get that Talent assuming you game for 6 hours - 100 to buy another skill to get you to the next rank, then 200 for Heavy Weapons. I think 1 adventure isn't a horribly long time to wait to use a Heavy Bolter.

The Primer isn't a book, per say, so playing it on a Data-Slate can be audio or visual. Most people can't read in the 41st Millennium, so why would it be a book?

-=Grim=-

Quote from: GrimJestaStaying away from you and Blackhand's argument...

Actually, a beginning Guardsman *does* start with that proficiency, so the point is moot except that I forgot to list it amongst the starting Talents. So he sure as fuck can swing that axe.

The heavy weapon teams, IIRC, are picked from the experienced Guardsmen. It takes a whopping 1 adventure to get that Talent assuming you game for 6 hours - 100 to buy another skill to get you to the next rank, then 200 for Heavy Weapons. I think 1 adventure isn't a horribly long time to wait to use a Heavy Bolter.

The Primer isn't a book, per say, so playing it on a Data-Slate can be audio or visual. Most people can't read in the 41st Millennium, so why would it be a book?

-=Grim=-

Aside from the fact that I own one? No reason.

However, this still illustrates my point. Sure, some XP makes up for not starting with the skills that a guardsman SHOULD start with...

But you shouldn't NEED those XP.

Again: Not being literate, not having skills that should be integral to your job, being unable to start as a character who is at least minimally competent and somewhat able to start with a distinct style or signature... these are horribly broken facets, but they speak to me of shoddy game design. Never mind that overcoming this is not as simple as just handing out a few more xp at the start, due to the increasing complexity of purchacing skills/talents as the xp total grows (at least in bulk chunks. In play I am certain it remains more or less managable)...


Look, and not to try to rope you in with blackhand either: the 40k setting presupposes that you are playing Heroes. Blankhead forgets that. Every guardsman is a hero, Space Marines are walking Gods.

What he also forgets is: That isn't good enough.  

So the setting tells us a thousand times that a million heroes die every day fighting to preserve the Imperium and then the game has you make an undereducated simpleton and expect them to keep up?

Its a failure of emulation.  Just like the failure to hard code in the nature of many jobs/castes into character creation is a failure.

Again: Most people that are represented in the various games and fictions are raised from childhood into their jobs.  Take the moderately humble Psyker 'career'.  You start barely able to perform basic 'tricks' much less 'awesome psychic might'... yet you have a fixed 10% chance of fucking up, potentially catestrophically, for even the easiest abilities.

Yet... you represnt someone of sufficient power and survivability that they hauled you, from any given god forsaken corner of the Imperium (million worlds plus) all the way to Earth (Terra) to meet the Immortal God Emperor (a singular being) to PERSONALLY bless off on your right to practice your arts. This is instead of being executed on the spot as a walking corruption risk, being bound to the golden throne as food for the Emperor, tied to the Astronomicon or any of a thousand other lesser fates that being tasked to the Inquisition (the single most powerful branch of the Imperium, capable of killing entire worlds if need be, I remind you)...

Does this make sense? Does it make sense that a Psychic run through that gauntlet would retain any vestigal 'primative' traits, regardless of how backwards his homeworld?  I mean, in order to even qualify for the Black ships (instead of on the spot execution), he would have been a best a young teen, spent years in space traveling, more years going through rigorous training and testing...

Ditto the Adeptus Mechanicus. For all we know they don't even recruit, just breed new Adeptus's in some sort of biolab, much as they do the Grey Knights space marines (specifically, and occasionally members of other, ordinary chapters as well... cloning is canon, if not common).  Yet, they still have potential origins that are unchanged and identical to the other charcter careers.

To help illustrate why this is an emulation problem: The symbol of the Imperium is a two headed eagle. One head represents the Imperium the other the Adeptus Mechanicus... in other words they are more accurately a 'seperate but equal power' to the entire fuckign Imperium...  They don't even worship the same God as the rest of the Imperium... and they don't get called for Heresy...much.

Dark Heresy isn't a bad game, but it is a lazy fucking attempt to capture the important details of characters.  It is a lazy hack job of a career system, and the competence level (not power) is too low for what it supposedly represents.


Two years for this? Would have been faster to write my own GURPS sourcebook. ANd when GURPS characters are more competent...

Um, did Blackhand get under your skin or something? I didn't argue against any of those points other than say the Imperial Guardsman career isn't untrue to TT. Then you started ranting about things I didn't even bring up.

This is why I drink myself to sleep at night and why we can never have anything nice.

-=Grim=-