I don't collect comic books, and the first material I was exposed to was Rogue Trader.  I witnessed a game and met some folks who played it, and for a time was mystified.  I had played D&D, and was familiar with that...but this was different.

2nd Ed came along and that's when I actually got a copy of the manual for myself.  I have grown accustomed to GW's practices now and while I do understand the reasoning behind them, I find the price hikes to be the only thing that miffs me.

More to the point, anyone who is under the mistaken impression that everything could fit in the book to make a 'complete' game for roleplaying anything you want from the 40k universe simply isn't familiar with the setting.  You may know the difference between a space marine and a commissar, but only visually / thematically.  There is so much strife in the 41st millennium that there are bars on who/what can work together.

40k has always been 'humanocentric'.  There are no aliens.  Dark Heresy is not about superhumans.  No space marines.  It is not about the Imperial Guard, though the Guardsman career could be used to represent an actual Imperial Guardsman (the book actually states that Guardsmen aren't nescessarily Guard and that Assassins aren't Adeptus Assassinorum).

Dark Heresy isn't even about Inquisitors, so no Inquisitor characters.  You are the low beings that no one will miss, who probably don't even 'exist' anymore thanks to your master's influence.

Would that there could have been additional books exploring other focuses from the 41st millenium, but I will have to defend the design decision that everyone has been dragging through the mud from the perspective of someone who appreciates it.

For one thing, not only would it have destroyed playability entirely to include Space Marines and (filthy) xenos as player characters, but the required amount of information would mean so much more was left out of the finished product.

Dark Heresy deals with mystery through the eyes of Inquisitorial Agents.  Had there been an option for space marines, it would have doubled the size of the book with just the minimum number of entries such a thing might require.  It would also take combat to an entirely different level than the one depicted in the game - you don't see Adeptus Astartes in Necromunda, do you?  They'd kill everyone quickly and without much fuss.

You can modify Dark Heresy to your hearts content...a Necromunda style RPG game would be something I would be interested in playing, but lets not forget that the books that had been planned by BI would have been completely different beasts.

Think of a space marine book - mega damage is the closest comparison I can think of in terms of RPG mechanics that might show you the difference in combat capability of even a scout marine vs. one of these Inquisitorial agents depicted in Dark Heresy.

It's not MEANT to be a complete game, for all gods' sakes.  It has a narrow focus - something that you NEED in order to be able to process the utterly VAST setting that is the Imperium.

This game is very good at what it does - it lets you play agents of the Inquisition who (more or less) are ordinary individuals faced with the cosmic horror of an uncaring galaxy.  There's your Lovecraft reference.

As far as 'complete' goes - this is more or less it and I don't really think we need any more.  We now have a framework and examples for all of us who will actually drag out the old edition material (and not just talk about how it was the good old days) and draw fresh ideas and even use the damn statistics from (all Warhammer games are close enough for those who can fend for themselves without the aid of game designers).

Do you really want to play space marines who will follow any order given without question to the letter?  Not a lot of room for innovation there, and the game would get really boring playing a space marine.  Save that for the battle games, which already have a great system for combat between marines and aliens.

So the crux of the question is "what do they do right that others do wrong".  The answer is they are members of the Warhammer family.  They interconnect in ways that only true fans of the setting / company / miniatures will appreciate, they can be modified by said personae to emulate whatever it is they want.

As far as the 'hopeless, crap shoveling setting' - Warhammer has always been about the struggle against the encroaching night.  If you like CoC you'll like Warhammer.  If not, just show up for the gore.

No pretenses.  No inner turmoil 'I'm an emo vampire' crap.

No uber-characters of 20th level.  Anyone can be stabbed in the face and killed.

If you're running WFRP like Forgotten Realms expecting crazy combats to last for hours against hordes of enemies by superheroes - this is not your game, or your game family.  You want D&D.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you ment "no aliens" in Dark Heresy rather than 40k.

Anyhow, I could easily do a complete 40k rpg using GURPS in the same format as GURPS Prime Directive.  Any you'd be able to play a C'tan with it.  I could do it with Rolemaster in a single book the size of Spacemaster:Privateers and you could at least play Orks and Eldar.

The problem with the WFRP / Dark Hersey mechanics is that they are very structured and limiting.  This makes it necessary to limit the scope of the core game.

I'd like to see a complete game.  With GURPS. lol

So the problem is that the core game is too structured?  And this limits you somehow?

WFRP's scope is limited?  In what way, that you can't be an orc big boss?  They were getting to that, in the same way as the Children of the Horned Rat book allowed you to play skaven.

It's just not feasable in terms of game mechanics to have a "C'tan" career (I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this was sarcasm) right next to "Ork Boy" which is next to the "Imperial Janitor" career.  Don't pretend that it is feasable and / or that you can do it - or even that you could do a better job than BI has with the subject matter depicted in Dark Heresy.

You might could come up with a mishmash of stats and references that your game group could play - benny can be the star eater, god of the underworld and I'll play a tyranid warrior.  Just don't pretend that it would be worth anyone else looking at or attempting to understand how it 'fits' as perfectly as you think.

Well, this is one sock puppet I was hoping would've already gotten bored.

Who is it, J?

Whoever it is, I'd pay good money to watch a cage-match between Blackhand and Erik Boielle.

Maybe we could do one of those pistols-at-dawn thread thingies on the topic of Dark Heresy?

Quote from: The Good AssyrianMy favorite GW games are Mordheim and Necromunda, which very much encourage this process of character identification...which is probably why I like them so much.

*sigh*  I once owned Necromunda.  Loved it up until we had a tournament that my ex-wife (gf at the time) won that led to some bad blood between her and one of my friends over accusations of "cheating" (which was all about some stupid math error).  Thus, I had to get rid of it.

Now I have no wife or Necromunda.  The lesson here, kids, is - never get rid of anything because of a SO - rent a storage locker.

Sure, I can download the pdf, but I still want the buildings and the minis darn it (though not enough to pay eBay prices, LOL).

Anyhow, I loved being able to personalize the Necromunda characters.  My gang was based on bad action stars.  Lorenzo Lamas was the first to die in the tournament.  

The other guys got into it to with "theme" gangs.  One guy had "Juan's Lawn Service" (making fun of Latinos), while another guy (who is Korean) had a gang that made fun of white guys (which offended the only other white guy in our group, his roommate, who eventually used it as evidence of "racism" to the college during a nasty and rather stupid dispute later that year).

JGants - Sounds like an awesome opportunity for you to make some scenery!  I've seen some Necromunda set ups that cover entire 6x4 tables in multi level gantries and buildings.

The cardboard buildings are kinda looked upon as 'get-you-by' terrain until you get a hunk of styrofoam and see in the shapes a whole mess of possible buildings and constructions - then you make your own scenery that looks tons better.  There is a huge amount of information on the web to give you ideas and even step by step terrain building sites.

As far as the minis go, most of the old range and a whole mess of new models are available on the Specialist Games website.  Necromunda is alive and kicking, as my Arbites squad "9th Precinct Regulators" can attest with their success in our league.  By the way, I'd rather have another Arbites with a shotgun than a thrice-damned cyberhound, but them's the breaks.

Sounds like you're a hobbyist at heart.  

Girls HATE Warhammer and the related games.  This fact is acknowledged (in as many words) on the GW group mission statement.  Don't be afraid to tell your SO to piss off, you're painting.

Most of the guys I know love the fact that girls hate it as they don't try to come hang out on Warhammer night.  We are then free to quaff beer in a manner as befits men with beards.

They'll infest the table with girly politics men don't understand if you're doing a D&D or other RPG session, but mention Warhammer and they'll stay home knitting.  Most girls will either try to make you get rid of it with ridicule, slander and violence OR (if they really love you) will simply ignore it and pretend it's NASCAR or Wrestling.

It's just that sometimes I like to get away from my SO.

Quote from: BlackhandSounds like you're a hobbyist at heart.

I love the idea of minis wargaming.  But the fact I'm lazy, untalented, and cheap keeps getting in the way of me being any kind of hobbyist (hence, my current preference for Heroscape or Memoir'44 style games).

Quote from: BlackhandGirls HATE Warhammer and the related games.

I know you're only joking here (or trolling), but I'll just point out again that my ex-wife actually liked Necromunda.  Right up until the point she got accused of cheating because she forgot to carry a one when adding up the point values for her gang (after she won the tournament).  It was the bad blood between players, not the game, that caused a problem.

Quote from: jgants*sigh*  I once owned Necromunda.  Loved it up until we had a tournament that my ex-wife (gf at the time) won that led to some bad blood between her and one of my friends over accusations of "cheating" (which was all about some stupid math error).  Thus, I had to get rid of it.

Games before dames, dude...:hehe:

Quote from: jgantsThe other guys got into it to with "theme" gangs.  One guy had "Juan's Lawn Service" (making fun of Latinos), while another guy (who is Korean) had a gang that made fun of white guys (which offended the only other white guy in our group, his roommate, who eventually used it as evidence of "racism" to the college during a nasty and rather stupid dispute later that year).

That sounds like an "interesting" tournament you had going there...

Our regular Mordheim league was fun, but not quite so colorful.  We had a Scottish Highland-themed Skaven band, but most of us played it pretty "straight" from the game background.  I had a puritan Witchhunter warband led by Solomon Kane, etc.


TGA

Quote from: jgantsI love the idea of minis wargaming.  But the fact I'm lazy, untalented, and cheap keeps getting in the way of me being any kind of hobbyist (hence, my current preference for Heroscape or Memoir'44 style games).

That's a drag, man.

Quote from: jgantsI know you're only joking here (or trolling)

It's definitely one OR the other.

Quote from: Herr ArnulfeWhoever it is, I'd pay good money to watch a cage-match between Blackhand and Erik Boielle.

I dunno. He seems to have a healthy love of Space Marines and their abilities, so I have a hard time working up the hate.

Dude just needs a litttle hand holding to understand that it is okay to want the cool models with the big guns and bigger muscles. And who would have been better placed to help him overcome his fears than BI?

Incidentally -- see this?

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/30323.html

distilled warhammer

Quote from: Erik BoielleI dunno. He seems to have a healthy love of Space Marines and their abilities, so I have a hard time working up the hate.

Dude just needs a litttle hand holding to understand that it is okay to want the cool models with the big guns and bigger muscles. And who would have been better placed to help him overcome his fears than BI?

Incidentally -- see this?

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/30323.html

distilled warhammer

You're not talking about me are you?  I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about, but Viking is distilled Total War, and it might be argued that Warhammer Fantasy is in the same vein as Total War.  However, ancient style battles are a different beast than futuristic games where everyone has a gun, which is what we're talking about with Dark Heresy.  Also, in case you didn't notice, Viking is a video game.

I'd really like to know what you mean by the muscles bit, maybe you're implying I'm a homosexual for playing with models, but I thought I made it clear that I already thought it was ok if I get cool models - if that's a jab at me you should take a moment and focus your energies.

Quote from: BlackhandI'd really like to know what you mean by the muscles bit, maybe you're implying I'm a homosexual for playing with models, but I thought I made it clear that I already thought it was ok if I get cool models - if that's a jab at me you should take a moment and focus your energies.

Oooooo, the judges have deducted a point for trolling.

Mr. Boielle, your response?

:popcorn:


TGA

Quote from: The Good AssyrianOooooo, the judges have deducted a point for trolling.

Mr. Boielle, your response?

:popcorn:


TGA

Oh noez mah stratterjy wuz gimpz0r3d!1!