Quote from: yabaziou;902022fighting vile xenos (but sometimes parlay with them)

Which xenos? Are you talking about temporary "we're gonna settle this between us later, when we're gonna slaughter those waves of enemies", or more solid, long lasting "unions"? How did it went?

See, this is one of most interesting paths to take. Rogue Trader captains chase the profit and often stay far too away from the everwatching eye of the Empire, so they have a bit different perspective regarding possible cooperation with xenos. After all, some even include xenos as their crewmembers. Guardsmen are weak enough to entertain the idea of temporary cooperation with the enemy, after all they are there to get the job done and this is the only thing that counts - everybody knows they are merely a canon fodder, so "if they don't care about me, I don't care much about their rules" is a reasonable approach.

Space Marines? Players usually assume that their SM PCs are supposed to be the incarnation of "our way or no way" who never give up to the temptation of perceiving the enemy as anything else than that - an enemy. (Yeah, those certain WH40k novels be damned).

Parlay with Xenos that can be parlay with : So Eldar and Tau, mainly, since Tyranids to not engaged in iddle conversation, Orks only Waaagh and Necrons hate. But the galaxy is huge and Xenos species can be invented on the spot. And of course, it would be more alliance of convenience that anything else with some treachery involved in the end.

I also do not agree the unsubtle approach to the Space Marines characterization. Sure, they are the ultimate warriors, oath-bound to protect the Emperor's domain agaist His foes' depradations but cunning and subterfuge are also the tool of a warrior.

I fancy RT as the utlimate sandbox approach to the W40 K universe but to me it is more the East India Company in Space than Questing knights.

Ultimatly, I think that some nuance will greatly benefit everyone's experience of W40 K but I do not see it coming in the forseable future.

Quote from: yabaziou;902029I also do not agree the unsubtle approach to the Space Marines characterization. Sure, they are the ultimate warriors, oath-bound to protect the Emperor's domain agaist His foes' depradations but cunning and subterfuge are also the tool of a warrior.

Oh I have absolutely nothing against people developing scenarios where certain factions - long time enemies - join ranks and work together towards the greater goo... Ummm, sorry, for that.

It's just that pretty much every session featuring Space Marines I participated in (on both sides of the GM's screen) renounced the idea, to the point that the player who suggested it was called "a traitor" by the rest (it was also the only case of a game where Space Marines fought each other, that I remember of).

I think there's some logic in that. Space Marine is a tool of war, but not just any tool. He is very specific one - he ain't no sword or a bolter gun, he is a War Banner. Space Marines are there to inspire simple folk, to support their faith in the Empire, an equivalent of real-world saints or perhaps even angels. Because of that, they are forbidden from taking "the easier" path, even if it leads straight to the victory. For them, the way they fulfill their orders is as important as fulfilling it, and sometimes it's even more important than the victory itself. So, it's kind of logical they would resign from certain solutions, if there's the risk of creating a dangerous precedent this way. Cooperation with an enemy surely is dangerous, because it leads to thinking, and this begets more troubles than it's worth.

Sure, there is a lot of unwanted consequences when one plays W40 K with simpletons. ^_^

While many SM chapters have a "in your face" approach to problems, even Marneus Calgar is not against so new angle to new problem.

I am not currently remembering the name of the chapter, but I do remember that at least one is specialized in infiltration. And with only one thousand SM by chapter, I think it is not far-fatched to write that many Chapter Masters have discovered the virtue of subtle tatics like feint, infiltration, subterfuge and stuff like that.

Quote from: yabaziou;902034Sure, there is a lot of unwanted consequences when one plays W40 K with simpletons. ^_^

Heeeey!
I think that B&W, simple and direct approach guarantees truckloads of fun, not to mention potentially memorable session, when one plays a Space Marine. Everyone is probably gonna die, not to mention the task won't be fulfilled, but man, what a ride it will be...

QuoteWhile many SM chapters have a "in your face" approach to problems, even Marneus Calgar is not against so new angle to new problem.

I am not currently remembering the name of the chapter, but I do remember that at least one is specialized in infiltration. And with only one thousand SM by chapter, I think it is not far-fatched to write that many Chapter Masters have discovered the virtue of subtle tatics like feint, infiltration, subterfuge and stuff like that.

Raptors?

Oh sure, there were attempts to produce "Reasonable Marines" chapters, and the results were pretty good... Yet, it's kind of boring. It's Angry Marines and alike where all the fun lies, at least according to yours truly and similar simpletons. Fortes Fortuna Adiuvat and such...

Quote from: JesterRaiin;902025.... Guardsmen are weak...

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Quote from: yabaziou;902034I am not currently remembering the name of the chapter, but I do remember that at least one is specialized in infiltration. And with only one thousand SM by chapter, I think it is not far-fatched to write that many Chapter Masters have discovered the virtue of subtle tatics like feint, infiltration, subterfuge and stuff like that.

Ravenguard.  And nearly every chapter has some understanding of how to do those things, even some Chaos Legions like Alpha Legion (if they're truly 'traitors') and Night Lords use these sorts of tactics.

Yeah ! the Ravenguard fits the bill. The White Scars is also an exeample of fast attack, hit and run tactic which departs from the basic all-out attack.

And I am not speaking of "Reasonable Marines" because they are fucking fanatics but also astute warriors who fight to win. Their foes are many and vile, so a modicus of tatical acumen is required. I am pretty sure they all have been taught a vast range of military skills (small unit tactics, large unit tactitcs, break trough mentality, gaining intiative and momentum, correct use of ordnance and mechanized units), so the "FOR the EMPRAH" and "MY BRUTHA" shit, while amusing on 4chan, is going to bore me quite rapidly around a table.

Let me be clear here : if you have fun  with the in your face approach of W40 K, more power to you. But is it not the default mode of this universe.

I'm just putting this out there... but there is a tabletop simulator on Steam and I can get my books back in less than a month...

Quote from: Crüesader;902036Guardsmen

Weak as in "weak units in comparison to say, Space Marine". I wouldn't calla Guardsman "weak" were he to arrive at my doorstep, you know.

QuoteRavenguard.  And nearly every chapter has some understanding of how to do those things, even some Chaos Legions like Alpha Legion (if they're truly 'traitors') and Night Lords use these sorts of tactics.

Ah, Coraxians.

I agree about tactics and warfare, I understand the point, but I don't think one should follow logic and reason in WH40k's world. Or, more precisely "not entirely, not always". I perceive Space Marines as icons, walking propaganda machines and sources of campfire legends simple folk tell, in addition to being tools of destruction.

This doesn't forbids them from being combat efficient, treating their own lives as important and on occasions bending the rules if that's what's crucial to achieve an important goal. It's just that they are supposed to be better, to go to great lengths to assure the victory without relying on anything than their own strength, wits, endurance and such.

Union with xenos? Deathwatch? The Iron fist of Ordo Xenos?



Don't get me wrong: I'd both play and run such a scenario. I think it would've been fun, especially if light in tone. It's just it's highly unlikely, so it should be considered "once in a lifetime" kind of scenario, rather than "sometimes". The majority of people I know shares same approach.

Quote from: JesterRaiin;902046Don't get me wrong: I'd both play and run such a scenario. I think it would've been fun, especially if light in tone. It's just it's highly unlikely, so it should be considered "once in a lifetime" kind of scenario, rather than "sometimes". The majority of people I know shares same approach.

It'd be fun to break the pace of things.  Especially if you could be a little silly with it.  I'd do it.  DIBS ON BLACK TEMPLAR!!!

Quote from: yabaziou;902042And I am not speaking of "Reasonable Marines"

Neither am I. I meant "Reasonable Marines" as exactly that: reasonable, nothing else. Perhaps I shouldn't use capital letters to avoid confusion...

QuoteLet me be clear here : if you have fun  with the in your face approach of W40 K, more power to you. But is it not the default mode of this universe.

I agree. Without any default canon, the representation of WH40k's reality is entirely subjective choice.

Quote from: Crüesader;902049It'd be fun to break the pace of things.  Especially if you could be a little silly with it.  I'd do it.  DIBS ON BLACK TEMPLAR!!!

DOHOHOHOHO, AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH, BATTLE BROTHER! AIN'T THAT THE TRUTH!

Quote from: Crüesader;902049It'd be fun to break the pace of things.  Especially if you could be a little silly with it.  I'd do it.  DIBS ON BLACK TEMPLAR!!!

I can agree that some levity cannot hurt during any W40 K gameplay. And some jokes are too difficult not to use !

So while we're bullshittin' here- how you guys feel about running a game through Skype and the Tabletop simulator?

We've played quite a bit of each game save Dark Heresy. In my opinion Black Crusade is the best of them simply because it has rules for both mere mortals and Space Marines (without the absolute ridiculousness of Deathwatch) and the XP/Archetype system is super easy to hack and make into anything you want. You don't HAVE to play Chaos. It is hella fun though.

Quote from: Crüesader;902056So while we're bullshittin' here- how you guys feel about running a game through Skype and the Tabletop simulator?

Time zone consideration. I'm in France, and I'm pretty we do not share the same time zone. It is a pity because I acually would have give it a try ! It would have been a better use of our time that bemoaning about the craziness of the current culture war (in with I will sinde with the victor, as I wound to do as a French man euh person ! ^_^) !