Quote from: David Johansen;901885I've always wanted to run an Adeptus Custodes campaign based on the plot of A Weekend At Bernies.

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Kowalsky, data?

As someone who ran a Deathwatch campaign for awhile, I'll throw my two cents in on that aspect of the 40k rpg universe.

First, the rules are a mess. FFG really dropped the ball on that core book, especially with solo/squad modes. Despite that, space marines can be a blast to play particularly because they aren't as weak as a lot of other 40k characters. I know a lot of people see them as robotic, unfeeling killing machines with unswerving loyalty to the Emperor and their mission, but that's only one interpretation. To anyone interested, I recommend the Space Wolves books about Ragnar Blackmane. Space Vikings are far from unfeeling robots. Some are loud and brash, others are canny and charismatic. You even see a SM who is obese because of a problem with his implants, so they aren't all cookie-cutter copies physically.

As to the missions, yeah the Deathwatch mostly deals with Xenos. But the Jericho Reach where the game is set also has a pretty big Chaos presence so the official adventures send kill teams on a variety of missions. The first adventure I ran from The Emperor Protects actually required a fair bit of diplomacy and even had the team going out on a hunt without their armor and armed only with primitive weapons, so it isn't all just grabbing the nearest bolter and shooting xenos in the face. There's plenty of daemons and heretics and even non-combat challenges to be overcome, too. And there's room for plenty of political intrigue given the relationship between the Ordo Xeno inquisitors and the Deathwatch if a GM chooses to go that route.

Quote from: Brand55;901919As someone who ran a Deathwatch campaign for awhile, I'll throw my two cents in on that aspect of the 40k rpg universe...

That being said, the way you've said it- I can probably say Deathwatch would be fun for a 'weekender' to take some time away from other games and stuff.  It might even be cool to tie in a 'side story' to a Dark Heresy campaign (PC's encounter a bad thing, and the Astartes are called in to deal with it).  Of course, I understand why they have the diplomacy for gaming purposes, but it does butt heads with previous lore.  An Astartes selected for the Death Watch is strapped into a chair and forced to watch videos of his battle-brothers being killed and maimed in cold blood by Xenos, over and over again.  They have to be restrained heavily so they don't break out and kill the first thing with slightly pointed ears.  Then again, the lore also says that the Chapters choose the most open-minded Space Marines for the program so they don't do stupid shit that irks the other Chapters- see 'Black Templar vs. Librarian' or 'Space Wolf meets a Dark Angel'.  

The fun of Dark Heresy is that it touches things in the 40k Universe that get overlooked by the tabletop gamers.  Slaugth, Hrud, Lacrymole, and Rak'Gol- all races that will never see the light of day on the tabletop- and maybe because when you're blasting things with tanks, this sort of thing is no real concern.  Of course if you want to see complete hell break loose?  Have a Dark Heresy party enter a 'dead cruiser' carrying a planetary governor and his entire staff... only to find that there's one thing alive on there, and it's an Eversor.  And he's awake.  And he's heard you.

A lot of the great settings and environments of the Universe are often pushed aside as well, or at least used as a battlefield and forgotten.  There's hive cities with darker secrets than your average cyberpunk campaign, Cathederal Worlds hiding secret cults and heresies, spacecraft that dwarf most cities, feral or feudal worlds full of primitive cultures and dangerous fauna (and sometimes flora, looking at you Catachan), etc.  Grimdark though it may be, there's a lot to explore and play with.

There's a lot of mystery and intrigue in the 40k Universe that's often overlooked because it just doesn't work anywhere but background fluff in a Codex.  

Not to mention, everyone seems to think that a Lasrifle is some shitty 'flashlight'... except, it isn't.  On the tabletop war game, you're shooting at guys covered in Adamantine and Ceramite, or obscenely tough things like Orks so it's not an ideal tool.  In Dark Heresy (and of course, Only War), you realize that a las-weapon is an extremely valuable weapon... especially when you realize you're rocking 100-shot magazines that can be recharged by throwing them on a fire or setting them in the sun.  It by far out-performs standard firearms.  Bolters are a BIG DEAL, and only some of the most established and respected agents of the Inquisition will ever lay their hands on these even though in the tabletop, every putz that isn't a meat shield in the Imperial Guard gets one.  That's another thing- you get to play with some of the toys that never see the light of day when you're moving around little plastic men.

How do starting Only War characters compare to starting DH 1e characters?

A big mistake a lot of people make with the 40k universe is to give the canon a weight and credence it neither possesses or deserves.  Decades of miniatures and constantly changing fluff retconned simply to sell said miniatures mean at any given time, the current status of 40k canon is thinner and less well-designed then your average 80's Saturday morning cartoon show.  The whole setting is backdrop, a very well-painted tapestry with the thickness of onionskin.

40k settings (at least the latest few incarnations) are quite soundly in the realm of "there's no possible fucking way things can actually run the way they say things do", so you just have to dig in there and do what you would do if you wanted to run a good campaign with Voltron, Thundercats or Thundarr the Barbarian - you make a real setting out of it.

Once you start doing that, you find that a lot of the sticking points to roleplaying in the setting was because you were straitjacketing yourself, by adhering to a canon that doesn't really exist, just various interpretations, all of which are true or none of them, depending on the author and the product.

Quote from: Spinachcat;901971How do starting Only War characters compare to starting DH 1e characters?

Generally less skilled, better physically and in combat, but the completely new advancement system replacing fixed classes makes it harder to compare as they rise in levels.  Also, a lot of the Only War abilities deal with Comrades, a "NPC who really isn't an actual NPC with stats but really a set of powers and abilities the main character uses".

Quote from: CRKrueger;901992A big mistake a lot of people make with the 40k universe is to give the canon a weight and credence it neither possesses or deserves.  Decades of miniatures and constantly changing fluff retconned simply to sell said miniatures mean at any given time, the current status of 40k canon is thinner and less well-designed then your average 80's Saturday morning cartoon show.  The whole setting is backdrop, a very well-painted tapestry with the thickness of onionskin.

40k settings (at least the latest few incarnations) are quite soundly in the realm of "there's no possible fucking way things can actually run the way they say things do", so you just have to dig in there and do what you would do if you wanted to run a good campaign with Voltron, Thundercats or Thundarr the Barbarian - you make a real setting out of it.

Once you start doing that, you find that a lot of the sticking points to roleplaying in the setting was because you were straitjacketing yourself, by adhering to a canon that doesn't really exist, just various interpretations, all of which are true or none of them, depending on the author and the product.

Yep. It's even officially been said that there's no single true 40k canon, so there's no point in arguing over the inconsistencies that crop up. As Marc Gascoigne himself said:

QuoteI'll happily be your tree. But I'm not sure you'll hear much of a crash. I weary of this question, and I weary of typing it all in yet again, yet again.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note thet answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me.

Sorry, too much splurge here. Not meant to sound stroppy.

To attempt answer the initial question: What is GW's definition of canon? Perhaps we don't have one. Sometimes and maybe. Or perhaps we do and I'm not telling you.

Quote from: Spinachcat;901971How do starting Only War characters compare to starting DH 1e characters?

If you were a Guardsman in DH 1e, you're an even better Guardsman in Only War.  But you're not as awesome as a Guardsman in DH 2e.  However, DH 1e was pretty insistent on having more skills than 'kill-skills'.  In Only War, you want some good 'Kill-Skills'.

But in Only War you can flat-out be a Commissar.  With a little tweaking, you could make one in everything but name for Dark Heresy 2e.

Also, I think the weapons haven't changed much.  But I haven't looked at DH 1e in a long, long time.

Quote from: Brand55;902008Yep. It's even officially been said that there's no single true 40k canon, so there's no point in arguing over the inconsistencies that crop up. As Marc Gascoigne himself said:

In the real world- humanity hasn't been around that long, and even we can't tell 'history' from 'fable' sometimes.  Now, imagine this in the 41st Millennium.  Basically 'canon' is like the shit your weirder friends share on Facebook- it's a combination of lies, urban legends, false scares, out-of-context quotes, bad assessments, and maybe something that possible could be true if you do some mental gymnastics.

But since we're talking of Guardsmen, obligatory imagery:

Spoiler

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I own the DH 1e, RT, DW and OW corebooks and the mere thought of GMing them fill be with dread ! It is a pity since I had some fun as a player with DH, DW and OW. I do not share the vision of Space Marines as Drones. Actually, I see them as being of high passions, except these passions are geared towards the Emperor, their Primarch and their Chapter.

I have been toying with the idea of making an Only War short campaign inspired by the Generation kill book and mini-series (tentatively called Generation Cadia) featuring an elite recon unit of Cadians, but it would some require some work from (and I'm lazy) and players with intrerest/knowledge of Generation Kill and Cadian Imperial Guards units.

Quote from: yabaziou;902011I have been toying with the idea of making an Only War short campaign inspired by the Generation kill book and mini-series (tentatively called Generation Cadia) featuring an elite recon unit of Cadians, but it would some require some work from (and I'm lazy) and players with intrerest/knowledge of Generation Kill and Cadian Imperial Guards units.

This would be amazing.

REMEMBRANCER:  "Guardsman, have you seen the pict-slate of my betrothed?"

GUARDSMAN:  "She have a bunch of stains all over her face?"

REMEMBRANCER:  "No- wait, what..?!?"

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COMMISSAR SIXTA:  "THE EMPRAH... IS A-WATCHIN' YE!  HOLY TERRA... IS A-WATCHIN' YE!  BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY... THE LORD COMMANDER MILITANT IS A-WATCHIN' YE!  BUT MAKE NO MISTAKE, THERE WILL BE NO FUCK..UPS!  GUARDSMEN AROUND THIS GALAXY WOULD GIVES THEY LEFT NUTS TO BE WHERE YOU ARE! ANYBODY NOT WANNA GO?!?!?!

"POE-LICE THAT MOOSTASH!  YOU ALL LOOK LIKE A BUNCH'A LEMAN RUSS'S!"

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Also, I'd love to roleplay a scene where a guardsman is innappropriatin' his breathin' mask for an Adeptus Sororitas.

Yeah ! This would the kind of stuff I wished to have around the table !

And for a HD/OW crossover, you have the whole Commisar Ciaphas Cain sage to use as reference.

Actually, there is a lot of stuff to do with the W40 K universe which can fun, if you are willing to no delve too much on the Grim Dark gimmick and the Catholic Space Nazi shit (which can only leads to stupidity in game, IMHO). Maybe remembering that W40 K has some british satire in it (and using stuff like Black Adder) ?

Quote from: yabaziou;902016Actually, there is a lot of stuff to do with the W40 K universe which can fun, if you are willing to no delve too much on the Grim Dark gimmick and the Catholic Space Nazi shit (which can only leads to stupidity in game, IMHO). Maybe remembering that W40 K has some british satire in it (and using stuff like Black Adder) ?

That's just it.  'Grim' and 'Dark' don't have to be the entire focus.  There's supposed to be humor in it.  I mean, do you -really- thing Guardsmen don't act like regular GI's?  Have you SEEN the things we GI's do to pass the time?  

A lot of folks get really caught up in the 'Nazi' part of it.  But a lot of folks don't realize that in this setting, an overwhelming majority of the alien species are either completely indifferent to humanity or they're just outright hostile.  The Tau aren't friendly space fish, their own empire is just as bad as the Imperium (they're just more subtle).  The Eldar are either torture-porn junkies, or they'll just flat out kill 1000 human civilians to save one of their own (with the exception of Harlequins).  Necrons hate you.  Tyranids want to eat you.  Chaos is Chaos.  In the Imperium, however- there are people that are genuinely trying to do the best they can- and that's what you focus on.  Even Inquisitors have good intentions, but all too often turning a blind eye to 'heresy' means that in another year an entire planetary population will be warp-mutated and attacking its neighbors.

And as I understand, the entire 40k setting is a satire.  There's comedy all over.  There's a story about an Ork tank.  Ork technology is powered by a weird psychic mob mentality, not real science or physics.  These Guardsmen kept shooting this tank, and then later they'd see it again.  Finally they hit the engine compartment and killed the crew.  When they went to investigate it, they looked in the engine compartment- and there wasn't even an engine.  It was a drawing of an engine and it said 'vroom vroom'.  Might not be canon, but that's the funny urban legends of the setting that make it less drab.

Ever watched the Youtube series If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device?

Quote from: Crüesader;902017That's just it.  'Grim' and 'Dark' don't have to be the entire focus.  There's supposed to be humor in it.  I mean, do you -really- thing Guardsmen don't act like regular GI's?  Have you SEEN the things we GI's do to pass the time?  

A lot of folks get really caught up in the 'Nazi' part of it.  But a lot of folks don't realize that in this setting, an overwhelming majority of the alien species are either completely indifferent to humanity or they're just outright hostile.  The Tau aren't friendly space fish, their own empire is just as bad as the Imperium (they're just more subtle).  The Eldar are either torture-porn junkies, or they'll just flat out kill 1000 human civilians to save one of their own (with the exception of Harlequins).  Necrons hate you.  Tyranids want to eat you.  Chaos is Chaos.  In the Imperium, however- there are people that are genuinely trying to do the best they can- and that's what you focus on.  Even Inquisitors have good intentions, but all too often turning a blind eye to 'heresy' means that in another year an entire planetary population will be warp-mutated and attacking its neighbors.

And as I understand, the entire 40k setting is a satire.  There's comedy all over.  There's a story about an Ork tank.  Ork technology is powered by a weird psychic mob mentality, not real science or physics.  These Guardsmen kept shooting this tank, and then later they'd see it again.  Finally they hit the engine compartment and killed the crew.  When they went to investigate it, they looked in the engine compartment- and there wasn't even an engine.  It was a drawing of an engine and it said 'vroom vroom'.  Might not be canon, but that's the funny urban legends of the setting that make it less drab.

Ever watched the Youtube series If the Emperor Had a Text-to-Speech Device?

The best stuff that GW put out was satire, it is just that later fans took that Blood Bowl spiked ball of Nazi Grimdark and ran it the fuck into the ground. Piss take humor came in second.

Quote from: Crüesader;902017'Grim' and 'Dark' don't have to be the entire focus. There's supposed to be humor in it.

Spot on.

The biggest mistake to make when WH40k is discussed, is an attempt to explain it. It is in human's nature to organize stuff, put everything in nice, labelled boxes and store safely for further usage, but in the case of WH40k it takes truckloads of fun away, and limits the possibilities. The setting surpassed the boundaries of reason long time ago. It's an amalgam of various collected visions, some coming from people who didn't give much damn about coherency or plausibility.

Here's where the protagonist of "Bill, the Galactic Hero", meets soldiers from "the 9th Company", then Creeeeeed! steps in, pulls an regiment of Kriegers out of his ass and together they recreate the crossover of "Starship Troopers" and "Forever War" fighting and dying in a conflict nobody understands.

It's chaos, all right. Impossible to explain, self-contradictory, constantly evolving and mutating chaos. And it's beautiful the way it is.

Quote from: yabaziou;902016Maybe remembering that W40 K has some british satire in it (and using stuff like Black Adder) ?

A cunning plan, my Commissar!

More musing form me on W 40K !

Using DW to do a questing knights/Graal quest campaign. Insisting on the fact that each player selects a  different chapter from the others players and not necessarly chapters that got along. Give each PC a background that compels them to go through this goal regardless of the risk involved for them (an personal request from the Chapter Master, a vision from the Primarch, a solemn oath, etc). Then send them across the galaxy, fighting vile xenos (but sometimes parlay with them) to fulfill the Emperor's Will. Put some extra focus on each chapter ritual, belief and mystery.