In terms of tabletop rpgs are these three (Dark, Grimdark, Horror) the same? I can think about horror games not being dark or grimdark, but I cannot conceive dark/grimdark without horror...

I have turned to YouTube looking for actual plays of this kind of games and I find them all utterly unwatchable. In your opinion which is the best way to portray consistently dark game worlds?

Which are the grimmest, darkest rpgs or campaign worlds?

I only have some experience with these:
Lamentations of the Flame Princess
Carcosa
Mork Borg
Shadow of the Demon World
Ravenloft

Which others would you recommend? Please suggest and, if possible, explain why do you feel so.

Thanks!!

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (WFRP) can be run/played dark, but it isn't always. It's largely a world where "adventurer" is not a career--indeed most PCs that might be considered adventurers are just normal people that get thrown into horrible situations. If they survive, they might become knights, battle priests, and wizards but that's not where they start. While there is magic in the world, the mundane horrors of exposure, disease, and deprivation are real threats to even experienced PCs (and while magic might save your ass, it can go horribly wrong too). Many times your opponents are other people rather than monsters, and it's rare that an "adventure" can be solved simply through force of arms. Social roles are also stressed, and many PCs will come from the lower rungs of the social ladders (progression in society is possible, but not guaranteed).

I'm not really sure how to put the difference between "Dark" and "Grimdark" into words. I'd say it's primarily a matter of scale and mutability. Grimdark doesn't need horror, either. Horror helps, and it's sometimes the focus, but it doesn't need to be the focus.

As for some of the darkest settings...

-Weaver Dice, by virtue of taking place in the setting of Worm which is probably the darkest story I've ever read that still seemed totally believable.
-Ravenloft, since it's literally a sapient torture chamber designed to make people relive their worst deeds or simply be unable to benefit from their goals.
-Dark Sun, which arguably fits into Grimdark due to its many matching themes. World is dying, slavery and tyranny are omnipresent, everything from the halflings to 150 foot long centipedes want to eat you, and the people who caused this shit are in charge of the remaining bastions of civilization. Among many more things.
-Shadowrun, since it seems to actively resist attempts to make the world a better place.
-Berserk. I haven't even watched the anime but it's famous for being incredibly dark.
-Cthulhu Mythos, by nature of dealing with the insignificance of mankind.

In my mind, "dark" and "grimdark" are mainly associated with hopelessness, whilst "horror" is associated with fear.

Dark: "You have the talent and weapons to combat the evil forces in the world. If you are smart and dilligent, your character probably won't die." Ex: Ravenloft, Dark Sun, World Of Darkness.

Grimdark: "You have weapons, and some talent.  Any magic you have will probably hurt you or your friends. Chances of your character surviving an entire campaign aren't good." Ex: Warhammer FRP, Mörk Börg, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Dungeon Core Classics.

Horror: "If you have weapons, they are useless against whatever is coming after you. Magic will likely backfire and requires you to do stuff that you don't want to do (i.e. sacrifice). If your character survives a session, you are either really smart, or lucky." Ex: Call of Cthulhu, Paranoia.

Dark - The Witcher. There is lots of nasty stuff in the world. Powerful heroes make a difference.
Grimdark - Warhammer. The world is grim. You are powerful and can fight the darkness. You won't win.
Horror - Call of Cthulu. Evil is strong. You are weak. Be afraid.

Games:

Dark - The Witcher RPG obviously. Lots of fantasy can lean in this direction. I'd put White Wolf stuff in here. Buffy the Vampire Slayer (show & RPG) fits here.

Midnight is a grimdark high fantasy setting where not-Morgoth is the only god and the forces of Good are doomed. Warhammer Fantasy and the various Warhammer 40K games fit here. I'd put PARANOIA in here though the PCs are generally not very powerful.

Horror - actual horror games are rare as it needs weak & relatively ignorant PCs; most settings like Ravenloft or Dark Conspiracy tend to be 'Heroes vs Werewolves' and fit more in the Dark category. Call of Cthulu RPG can be run like this. Some Storygames fit here.

Quote from: Svenhelgrim on November 12, 2021, 02:57:07 AM
Dark: "You have the talent and weapons to combat the evil forces in the world. If you are smart and dilligent, your character probably won't die." Ex: Ravenloft, Dark Sun, World Of Darkness.

Grimdark: "You have weapons, and some talent.  Any magic you have will probably hurt you or your friends. Chances of your character surviving an entire campaign aren't good." Ex: Warhammer FRP, Mörk Börg, Lamentations of the Flame Princess, Dungeon Core Classics.

Horror: "If you have weapons, they are useless against whatever is coming after you. Magic will likely backfire and requires you to do stuff that you don't want to do (i.e. sacrifice). If your character survives a session, you are either really smart, or lucky." Ex: Call of Cthulhu, Paranoia.

>horror
>Paranoia

We need to talk about the Paranoia games you've played because wow, that is kind of disturbing. I grant that if you step back and remove the absurdity filler the Paranoia setting really is appalling. But wtf...

WFRP is where it's at if you want grimdark (1st and 2nd edition that is). Of course, you can dial it back too.

Black Iron probably one of the darkest settings yet. Pure grimdark. Think of post apocalyptic fantasy. The land is being corrupt by dark lords.

Desolation (ubiquity system) - Dark. More mainstream fantasy set after a cataclysmic event.

I would say that "horror" is a genre that is more specific than an adjective like "dark" or even "grimdark". For example, there are dark war movies (like Full Metal Jacket), dark mysteries (like Se7en), and so forth.

Alien is a horror movie. Aliens is a dark action movie.

Paranoia is dark comedy - not horror.

I wrote a bit about genre here:

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2021/03/my-weird-dark-twisted-fantasy.html

One of the important aspects of horror is that, more than other genres, it focuses on victims. This is not the case on "epic" tales which puts heroes against monsters, for example; here, the victims, if any, are unimportant. But some heroes fall victims to their own flaws. That is why the anti-hero a symbol of dark fantasy, even if the story is not focused on making you scared. What I'm saying is - there is some overlap between tragedy and horror.

"Dark" is a wide term, but in the context of dark fantasy (fantasy + horror), IMO, it requires some FOCUS ON THE VICTIMS.

Here is a bit on why I call my own book "dark fantasy":

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2018/04/whats-so-dark-about-dark-fantasy-d.html

"Grimdark" is just dark taken to an extreme, sometimes becoming farcical.

"Dark" is a hopeful adjective.

"Grimdark" is a pretentious attempt to be part of a club.

"Horror" is a genre.

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 12, 2021, 06:01:55 PM
"Grimdark" is just dark taken to an extreme, sometimes becoming farcical.

I agree. "Grimdark" is setting and adventures so dark that it becomes comical. It is like taking the piss out of "Dark", a Tumblr Grotesque of "Dark". Warhammer 40K is "Grimdark".

Quote from: Zalman on November 13, 2021, 10:21:01 AM
"Dark" is a hopeful adjective.

"Grimdark" is a pretentious attempt to be part of a club.

"Horror" is a genre.

Quote from: jeff37923 on November 13, 2021, 10:57:25 PM

Quote from: Eric Diaz on November 12, 2021, 06:01:55 PM
"Grimdark" is just dark taken to an extreme, sometimes becoming farcical.

I agree. "Grimdark" is setting and adventures so dark that it becomes comical. It is like taking the piss out of "Dark", a Tumblr Grotesque of "Dark". Warhammer 40K is "Grimdark".

Yeah, these are closer to my perceptions of usage in gamer jargon.

Horror a genre, Dark an atmosphere, Grimdark either a kitschy farce (ironic appealing sentimentality with garish mockery) or satire that can easily slip into campy try-hard edgelord-ism.

Changeling the Dreaming is a bright atmosphere, Tragic (in the Classics sense, wrongfully removed from where you belong never to be righted) Horror game. It can easily pile on gloomy pop culture references as Dauntain, Nightmares, Bedlam, Banality, & Autumn People to the point of grimdark kitsch or camp.

D&D can do a horror side-trip Ravenloft "weekend in hell," play in a dark atmosphere like The Moonsea of Forgotten Realms, and can go wallow in camp or kitsch accoutrements in Zhentil's Keep.

Many, many RPGs and their settings have slices where you can do the same mix & match of these subdivisions. I can rattle off premises & locations for L5R Rokugan, several White Wolf properties, slices of Shadowrun, Cyberpunk, Fading Suns, etc. Bright Grimdark Horror in L5R? Crane gifting emissary entourage visits Crab lands during a surprise Shadowlands siege, done. Dark Grimdark Horror Fading Suns? Decados dealing with a Symbiont eco-terrorist incursion, done.

To my mind, the difference between Dark and Grimdark is that in the former the odds are still high that the heroes are ultimately going to succeed - the world might be horrible, they might and will suffer on the journey, many horrific things will happen, but they can fight, win and make their little slice of the world a better place.

By comparison, in Grimdark the world is typically screwed no matter what and might not even be worth saving even if it can be. At it's most hopeful you can "rage against the dying light" but the light is getting snuffed out and you know it.

To use a modern example, I consider the end of True Detective S1 to be Dark. The conspiracy wasn't completely thwarted but the protagonists "got their guy" and we as an audience don't even know who the other conspirators are anyway; some justice was done, there were some resolutions and the characters grew from their horrific experiences with an uncertain optimism towards the future.

Meanwhile, I consider the end of True Detective S2 to be Grimdark. A few of the antagonists are dead, but it's very obviously not a victory for the heroeswho ultimately died without really accomplishing - Colin Farrel's son will never get his final message, Vince Vaughn slowly dies in the desert, Taylor Kitsch died pointlessly because he couldn't come to terms with his sexuality, Rachel McAdams survives living in exile but her son will never know her father, the conspirators get away with their crimes to prosper. The possibility the truth may get out is left open but there's no assurance of it.

QuoteMeanwhile, I consider the end of True Detective S2 to be Grimdark. A few of the antagonists are dead, but it's very obviously not a victory for the heroeswho ultimately died without really accomplishing - Colin Farrel's son will never get his final message, Vince Vaughn slowly dies in the desert, Taylor Kitsch died pointlessly because he couldn't come to terms with his sexuality, Rachel McAdams survives living in exile but her son will never know her father, the conspirators get away with their crimes to prosper. The possibility the truth may get out is left open but there's no assurance of it.

IIRC from 4 original conspirators only one survived and prospered.