Greetings!

In my campaign, the Player Characters had the experience of infiltrating a group of several ancient castles, set within a remote, harsh region. The castles were ruled by sexy Vampires and Evil Wizards. They had huge laboratories, all kinds of dungeons and torture chambers, and were creating mixed animal/Human crossbreeds, and experimenting with all kinds of dark sorcery. Part of their experiments resulted in creation and opening magical gates which led to alien worlds, and alien times.

It was some of these efforts that resulted in the evil Vampire Queen allying herself with a regiment of the 1st SS "Leibestandarte" Panzer Division. The evil Nazi Panzer Regiment had warped through during an arcane storm, and had to become accustomed to their new environment. The Vampire Queen turned the most of the higher officers of the Leibestandarte Regiment into vampires, totally loyal to her.

Then, of course, there was the Tiger tanks, the Jagtigers, the 88-mm Flak Artillery, the Nebelwerfer mobile Rocket Launchers, the flame-throwers, machine guns, grenades, Panzerfausts, armoured half-tracks, radio communications, powerful Field Artillery, specially trained and equipped Engineers, and several units of experimentally-augmented Ubermenschen--augmented super-soldiers.

The player characters went crazy fighting the vampires and the Nazis. It was fantastic, and great fun! I had originally been inspired by the art, imagery, and stories presented by "Weird War" Comics, from when I was a kid. Mixing Nazis with evil, diabolical science, dark folklore and mythology, and elements of horror, was a huge plate for the party to deal with. It pushed them to strive to achieve victory in glorious fashion!

Have you embraced some weird, Gonzo warfare elements like this in your campaigns?

I have noticed that you don't really see anything like this within the larger gaming hobby anymore--but back in the day, such dynamic elements were everywhere. Mixing Gonzo weirdness, ancient history, science fiction, dinosaurs, lasers, flying sharks--it was crazy!

The tapestry of a lot of the hobby nowadays seems pretty candy-happy and "safe" by comparison.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

I hope those flying sharks have laser beams on their heads, because otherwise you're playing it too vanilla.

But I love this sort of approach. There was a time when I wanted my fantasy very separate from my sci-fi, but no more. And why have a group of villains based on the SS when you can have the real thing? Plus tanks? If it adds to the fun, it adds to the fun. My campaign setting is Sword and Sorcery, but on the bones of a far more advanced collapsed civilisation with hi-tech artefacts knocking around. There's not much that isn't possible in such a setting. But maybe I should add some SS troopers. With laser beams on their heads.

I don't know about the sharks having laser beams but I am going to be very disappointed in the adventure if the Vampire Queen doesn't look like Ilsa... 

You had me at sexy vampires.   

I think the real reason we don't see this cool stuff in products nowadays (woke bullshit aside) is that earlier TTRPGS were created by those who were influenced by, and were a fan of the classic pulp literature. Todays generation was raised on a very different diet of inspiriational material, and thus cool gonzo shit has kind of worked its way out the gaming zeitgeist except for us old timers who keep it alive. I think a lot of younger folk might actually enjoy this style if they were exposed to it.

Quote from: Exploderwizard on September 18, 2023, 09:41:35 PM
You had me at sexy vampires.   

I think the real reason we don't see this cool stuff in products nowadays (woke bullshit aside) is that earlier TTRPGS were created by those who were influenced by, and were a fan of the classic pulp literature. Todays generation was raised on a very different diet of inspiriational material, and thus cool gonzo shit has kind of worked its way out the gaming zeitgeist except for us old timers who keep it alive. I think a lot of younger folk might actually enjoy this style if they were exposed to it.

Greetings!

Keen observation there, Exploderwizard. I agree. The younger gamers are heavily influenced by "Twilight" and "Harry Potter"--and not generally what we have been influenced and informed by. I think you even see this reflected of course in the *game designers*. They, *themselves* have little reference point for it--and probably not much appeal, either.

Not that I think there should be *Gonzo* stuff all the time--I have, after all, argued in the past that if your campaign world is more historical--of whatever historical flavour--then *Gonzo* elements need to be used with strict caution, when used at all. *Gonzo* elements can throw a historical game right out the window, and resemble some weird science-fiction/fantasy misfit party rather than a carefully-crafted, immersive historical campaign.

Having said that, I have a part of my heart that loves *Gonzo* elements, and even in my historically-flavoured campaign, I make efforts to have special areas where weird *Gonzo* stuff can happen or occur, without it necessarily opening the gates and letting the Gonzo flood sweep through and totally jack everything! *Laughing*

I sometimes look at the recent modules put out by WOTC for 5E, and geezo. So much of it seems so candy-coated and candy-happy. Where the death? The hatred? The chomping dinosaurs gulping down the peasants? So many modern game modules come off as so sanitized, like they were written for a retarded 8 year old. Hell, when I was 10 and 12 years old, we played with savage barbarians, whole tribes marching to war against other tribes, civilized towns being scorched by fire and slaughtered, Dragons, T-Rex's, Vampires, Ghouls, and Werewolves everywhere--then in some out of the way place, you would find a Light-Saber, or a group of SS Nazis, or Mongolian raiders plundering and enslaving a whole region. *Laughing*

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Sexy Vampires, Evil Scientist Madmen, Aliens and the kitchen sink.

Yes, all of that and more is present in the setting for my Luchadores game,. still very much WIP in the early stages of development and in the backburner.

Quote from: SHARK on September 18, 2023, 01:29:35 PM
I have noticed that you don't really see anything like this within the larger gaming hobby anymore--but back in the day, such dynamic elements were everywhere. Mixing Gonzo weirdness, ancient history, science fiction, dinosaurs, lasers, flying sharks--it was crazy!

The tapestry of a lot of the hobby nowadays seems pretty candy-happy and "safe" by comparison.

Maybe, but I would say there's also been a movement towards more tonally and internally consistent settings, as well as a fear of the dreaded "kitchen sink". There's a not insignificant OSR trend of selling your game/setting on a specific (usually pseudohistorical or mythic) tone. (see Dolmenwood, Dark Albion, Helveczia and so on for examples), as opposed to the "throw everything against the wall and see what sticks" approach of early D&D. Even games that lean into that gonzo approach, like Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Hyperborea are still leaning heavily on a historical or literary context. I wouldn't exactly call either group "candy-happy and safe".  If anything, I associate the "whatever random idea the GM comes up with" style of game more with the new school than the old.

My own players  (which tend to be about half grognards and half non-snowflake millennials) have expressed to me more than once that they actively dislike gonzo games. When I've pitched that kind of weird science-fantasy, the reaction has always been tepid at best. The general sentiment seems to be that the if the setting is too out there, they disconnect from it. Maybe it's just the people I game with, but they strongly prefer defined settings and genre emulation to heavy-metal-album-cover weirdness (to my occasional chagrin).

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 19, 2023, 11:22:45 PM

Quote from: SHARK on September 18, 2023, 01:29:35 PM
I have noticed that you don't really see anything like this within the larger gaming hobby anymore--but back in the day, such dynamic elements were everywhere. Mixing Gonzo weirdness, ancient history, science fiction, dinosaurs, lasers, flying sharks--it was crazy!

The tapestry of a lot of the hobby nowadays seems pretty candy-happy and "safe" by comparison.

Maybe, but I would say there's also been a movement towards more tonally and internally consistent settings, as well as a fear of the dreaded "kitchen sink". There's a not insignificant OSR trend of selling your game/setting on a specific (usually pseudohistorical or mythic) tone. (see Dolmenwood, Dark Albion, Helveczia and so on for examples), as opposed to the "throw everything against the wall and see what sticks" approach of early D&D. Even games that lean into that gonzo approach, like Lamentations of the Flame Princess or Hyperborea are still leaning heavily on a historical or literary context. I wouldn't exactly call either group "candy-happy and safe".  If anything, I associate the "whatever random idea the GM comes up with" style of game more with the new school than the old.

My own players  (which tend to be about half grognards and half non-snowflake millennials) have expressed to me more than once that they actively dislike gonzo games. When I've pitched that kind of weird science-fantasy, the reaction has always been tepid at best. The general sentiment seems to be that the if the setting is too out there, they disconnect from it. Maybe it's just the people I game with, but they strongly prefer defined settings and genre emulation to heavy-metal-album-cover weirdness (to my occasional chagrin).

Back in the day, it dependent a lot on the gaming group in question. My group liked to mix AD&D with Gamma World, resulting in things such as green winged furry dwarves and super-psionic cyborg octopi. It was a blast!

I'm working on urban fantasy, but inserting gothic castles into modern cities a la Buffy vs Dracula is totally something I'll do. I don't give a fuck about the fake realism that a lot of settings go for, so I have no issue doing that.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2023, 09:14:35 AM
I'm working on urban fantasy, but inserting gothic castles into modern cities a la Buffy vs Dracula is totally something I'll do. I don't give a fuck about the fake realism that a lot of settings go for, so I have no issue doing that.

IMNSHO If there's a place for "Rule of Cool" it's exactly when building the world/setting/game.

I've never cared for "realism" I care about internal consistency tho, which isn't the same thing.

Quote from: ForgottenF on September 19, 2023, 11:22:45 PM

My own players  (which tend to be about half grognards and half non-snowflake millennials) have expressed to me more than once that they actively dislike gonzo games. When I've pitched that kind of weird science-fantasy, the reaction has always been tepid at best. The general sentiment seems to be that the if the setting is too out there, they disconnect from it. Maybe it's just the people I game with, but they strongly prefer defined settings and genre emulation to heavy-metal-album-cover weirdness (to my occasional chagrin).

Some of the reaction is aesthetics.  Sometimes, it is a "like peanut butter, like chocolate, but who put peanut butter on my chocolate?" thing.

Medium and mood are also a factor.  Heck, I enjoy reading some of the gonzo source material, but still rarely enjoy it in my games.  I need to be in the right mood.    Same way that jazz is sometimes more fun to play than to listen to.  Asking people how much gonzo is the right amount is like asking how much garlic goes in the spaghetti. 

Quote from: Steven Mitchell on September 20, 2023, 04:42:52 PM
Medium and mood are also a factor.  Heck, I enjoy reading some of the gonzo source material, but still rarely enjoy it in my games.  I need to be in the right mood.    Same way that jazz is sometimes more fun to play than to listen to.  Asking people how much gonzo is the right amount is like asking how much garlic goes in the spaghetti.

That's very much the way I feel about horror and particularly "grimdark" material. Satanic orgies, graphic violence and existential despair are all tremendous fun in a videogame or comic book, but on the tabletop they just fall flat.

Likewise, I love the idea of a Moorcockian, dimension-hopping cosmic science fantasy campaign, but I'm coming more and more to the belief that tabletop roleplaying is just not the medium for it.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2023, 03:46:00 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2023, 09:14:35 AM
I'm working on urban fantasy, but inserting gothic castles into modern cities a la Buffy vs Dracula is totally something I'll do. I don't give a fuck about the fake realism that a lot of settings go for, so I have no issue doing that.

IMNSHO If there's a place for "Rule of Cool" it's exactly when building the world/setting/game.

I've never cared for "realism" I care about internal consistency tho, which isn't the same thing.

I find lore to be more of a detriment and distraction than anything else. Fandoms built it into a fucking religion, which I despise. So I leave the lore of my settings vague so that I can do whatever I think feels fun for the current adventure.

It's going to vary by setting. If I'm doing a conspiracy techno-thriller where you're an agent of an Institute secretly funded by rebel Grays or a reincarnating elementalist wizard seeking Nirvana, then yes I'll probably include writeups of various conspiracies like the Bavarian Illuminati, Rosicrucians, Freemasons, Assassins, Templars and World Economic Forum New World Order that get in your way.

But if I just want to tell interesting stories without worrying about an interconnected setting, then I'm satisfied with just writing scenarios without worrying about that. I can insert a gothic castle onto the outskirts of a modern city where Countess Bathory holds murderous orgies to evoke an alien deity, or a cult of death worshipers headquartered in a labyrinth of tunnels under the local cemetery with the Necronomicon sitting on an altar, etc.

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 21, 2023, 01:55:13 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2023, 03:46:00 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2023, 09:14:35 AM
I'm working on urban fantasy, but inserting gothic castles into modern cities a la Buffy vs Dracula is totally something I'll do. I don't give a fuck about the fake realism that a lot of settings go for, so I have no issue doing that.

IMNSHO If there's a place for "Rule of Cool" it's exactly when building the world/setting/game.

I've never cared for "realism" I care about internal consistency tho, which isn't the same thing.

I find lore to be more of a detriment and distraction than anything else. Fandoms built it into a fucking religion, which I despise. So I leave the lore of my settings vague so that I can do whatever I think feels fun for the current adventure.

It's going to vary by setting. If I'm doing a conspiracy techno-thriller where you're an agent of an Institute secretly funded by rebel Grays or a reincarnating elementalist wizard seeking Nirvana, then yes I'll probably include writeups of various conspiracies like the Bavarian Illuminati, Rosicrucians, Freemasons, Assassins, Templars and World Economic Forum New World Order that get in your way.

But if I just want to tell interesting stories without worrying about an interconnected setting, then I'm satisfied with just writing scenarios without worrying about that. I can insert a gothic castle onto the outskirts of a modern city where Countess Bathory holds murderous orgies to evoke an alien deity, or a cult of death worshipers headquartered in a labyrinth of tunnels under the local cemetery with the Necronomicon sitting on an altar, etc.

So you despise lore...

Lets say you're running a sci-fi game, your original "vague" setting and pitch was that it's a Space Opera.

Then, somewhere down the line would you just insert Cuthulhu and unleash it on your players as in a cosmic horror game?

That's what I mean by internal consistency.

Another example, you have established that Dragons are just beasts, no more intelligent than any other animal, would you then unleash smart dragons upon the game world/players?

In the Kingdom of whatever Necromancy is illegal, so a player learns some necromantic spells and uses them while in the kingdom... What is the "police" going to do about it? Again, that's consistency.

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 21, 2023, 02:04:30 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 21, 2023, 01:55:13 PM

Quote from: GeekyBugle on September 20, 2023, 03:46:00 PM

Quote from: BoxCrayonTales on September 20, 2023, 09:14:35 AM
I'm working on urban fantasy, but inserting gothic castles into modern cities a la Buffy vs Dracula is totally something I'll do. I don't give a fuck about the fake realism that a lot of settings go for, so I have no issue doing that.

IMNSHO If there's a place for "Rule of Cool" it's exactly when building the world/setting/game.

I've never cared for "realism" I care about internal consistency tho, which isn't the same thing.

I find lore to be more of a detriment and distraction than anything else. Fandoms built it into a fucking religion, which I despise. So I leave the lore of my settings vague so that I can do whatever I think feels fun for the current adventure.

It's going to vary by setting. If I'm doing a conspiracy techno-thriller where you're an agent of an Institute secretly funded by rebel Grays or a reincarnating elementalist wizard seeking Nirvana, then yes I'll probably include writeups of various conspiracies like the Bavarian Illuminati, Rosicrucians, Freemasons, Assassins, Templars and World Economic Forum New World Order that get in your way.

But if I just want to tell interesting stories without worrying about an interconnected setting, then I'm satisfied with just writing scenarios without worrying about that. I can insert a gothic castle onto the outskirts of a modern city where Countess Bathory holds murderous orgies to evoke an alien deity, or a cult of death worshipers headquartered in a labyrinth of tunnels under the local cemetery with the Necronomicon sitting on an altar, etc.

So you despise lore...

Lets say you're running a sci-fi game, your original "vague" setting and pitch was that it's a Space Opera.

Then, somewhere down the line would you just insert Cuthulhu and unleash it on your players as in a cosmic horror game?

That's what I mean by internal consistency.

Another example, you have established that Dragons are just beasts, no more intelligent than any other animal, would you then unleash smart dragons upon the game world/players?

In the Kingdom of whatever Necromancy is illegal, so a player learns some necromantic spells and uses them while in the kingdom... What is the "police" going to do about it? Again, that's consistency.

Why couldn't big scary alien gods, many of whom literally live in space, and space ships exist in the same setting? Genre labels were a mistake.

The discovery of a sapient example of a species thought to be exclusively non sapient could be the start of an excellent mystery and a source of conflict in the game.